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D-aqui
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Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:13 pm

When looking recently into the runway length of Rarotonga airport (RAR/NCRG) in the Cook Islands, and bearing in mind that Air Newzealand is once in a week operating their 767-300ER for a nine-hour-plus flight to Los Angeles out of that field, I was wondering just how they manage to get that ship into the air from a runway that is barely 8,000 feet long (7,638 feet, according to open sources). Could anybody advise me if the runway at RAR has a stopway or other runway extensions that go into calculating the TODA?

From Boeing's technical manuals I deducted that on a standard day at sea level, a fully laden 767-300 would need a little bit more than the published runway length at RAR.

Perhaps there is a knowledgeable person out there that could enlighten someone from far away Europe on this matter.

D-aqui
 
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seat55a
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:13 pm

The planes won't be fully laden. I doubt there is much market for cargo on RAR-LAX.
 
744lover
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:15 pm

Hallo D-AQUI,

Using 2100Z metar (NCRG 252100Z 10010KT 9999 BKN025 27/19 Q1015) my calculations are:

For a CF6 engined 767-300ER (non winglet) the calculated MTOW is at 175165 Kg. In Air New Zeland's configuration you have 230 seats which, if fully occupied, translates to 19090 Kg of passengers. If you add an average of 30 Kg of baggage per passenger, the payload will be 25990 Kg. When adding OEW (90419), PL (25990) we´ll be at a ZFW of 116409 Kg which will allows us 58.756 Kg of fuel, plenty enough to reach LAX but no freight can be carried if the flight is full..



BR,
744lover
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm

My wife and I flew LAX-RAR-LAX on this flight a few years back. Being the aviation enthusiast that I am, I really enjoyed the operational "Challenges" of this return leg. I asked a similar question a couple of years ago, but didn't get much response.

From my Observation:

LAX-RAR: Landing at RAR in the early hours, it was raining pretty good. Because it was so dark and the runway is near the water, it was hard to tell exactly where we were and when touchdown would occur, plus my wife had the window seat. I can tell you, however, that being windy and rainy, we smacked down with a hard thud and had pretty heavy braking action. Again, I couldn't assess how far down the runway we touched down, but I can safely assume it was in the touchdown zone.


RAR-LAX: Again, this was a night departure and my wife had the window seat. With that said, I know that the pilot held the breaks while powering up the engines for take-off. I could not see exactly how much runway we used, but judging by the length of the runway and the amount of time it took to get airborne (quite a while), I know we could not have been very far from the end of the runway at liftoff. VERY shortly after the main wheels left the ground, we passed over the perimeter road, which I could observe with a bit more clarity due to the cars driving.

While I know it is completely safe and legal take-off, I do have to wonder and would like to know how the heck we would have gotten off the runway in time had we lost an engine just after V1. Given that we used so much runway with 2 engines, it seems hard to believe it would have still gotten airborne in time with just 1 engine operative after V1.

I remember thinking the takeoff was a lot of fun, but we did use almost the entire runway to take off.
Whatever
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:00 pm

Quoting 744lover (Reply 2):
When adding OEW (90419), PL (25990) we´ll be at a ZFW of 116409 Kg which will allows us 58.756 Kg of fuel, plenty enough to reach LAX but no freight can be carried if the flight is full..

You have missed out the DOW component of catering and crew weight . Probably in the order of 3t plus. For a 300 seater it is typically about 4t.
 
744lover
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:12 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 4):
You have missed out the DOW component of catering and crew weight . Probably in the order of 3t plus. For a 300 seater it is typically about 4t.

Hi Sunrisevalley,

At my airline catering, crew weight and other "weights" like potable water, lavatory waste tank, etc... is already in the OEW.. Therefore Dry Operating Weight is the bare-bones of the airplane without anything in it. After putting the above items you reach Operating Empty Weight.....
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:13 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 3):
While I know it is completely safe and legal take-off, I do have to wonder and would like to know how the heck we would have gotten off the runway in time had we lost an engine just after V1. Given that we used so much runway with 2 engines, it seems hard to believe it would have still gotten airborne in time with just 1 engine operative after V1.

You have to consider how V1 works. If the runway is short and/or slippery, it will be a lower number. Essentially, you are making the go/no-go decision earlier so that you have enough runway to stop.*

All this does not affect Vr, which has to do with Vmca and is thus dependent on aircraft weight (and how much thrust you use, which is of course also dependent on weight). So even if the runway is shorter, Vr will remain the same for a given weight barring flex/derate considerations. A short runway may require a lower thrust to ensure you are above Vmca at rotation, further limiting weight.

Thankfully, we have computers to figure it all out for us. 



*In extreme cases, V1 can even be at speed zero (brake release). Dash-7 take-offs from Courchevel come to mind. After that point you are committed to taking off.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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77west
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
*In extreme cases, V1 can even be at speed zero (brake release). Dash-7 take-offs from Courchevel come to mind. After that point you are committed to taking off.

That's crazy but I'm sure a lot of fun!
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting 744lover (Reply 5):
At my airline catering, crew weight and other "weights" like potable water, lavatory waste tank, etc... is already in the OEW.. Therefore Dry Operating Weight is the bare-bones of the airplane without anything in it. After putting the above items you reach Operating Empty Weight.....

Interesting. So there are differences between airlines on this matter. In the example in this thread I am fairly certain that NZ add the catering and crew weight to the OEW to get the DOW.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:46 am

Quoting D-aqui (Thread starter):
When looking recently into the runway length of Rarotonga airport (RAR/NCRG) in the Cook Islands, and bearing in mind that Air Newzealand is once in a week operating their 767-300ER for a nine-hour-plus flight to Los Angeles out of that field, I

If NZ puts the 789 on this route TOW will be limited to ~230t . The 789 being what it is could haul about 44t out of RAR on a typical 10-hour day to LAX at this TOW.
 
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Vio
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:15 am

Quoting seat55a (Reply 1):

The planes won't be fully laden. I doubt there is much market for cargo on RAR-LAX.

I can't say much about the cargo portion, but when I flew RAR-LAX with Air New Zealand (June 2012), the flight was packed. I wrote a 3 part trip report here on A.net. Here's the third part that covers that flight.

http://www1.airliners.net/aviation-f...ums/trip_reports/read.main/256855/

Cheers

Vio
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
cc2314
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:13 pm

Neat trip report vio,
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D-aqui
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RE: Tora And Toda At RAR For ANZ B 767 Flights To LAX

Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:00 pm

Well thank you folks for all your answers,

My eldest daughter just finished this trip today as part of an around-the-world journey.

And thank you particularly Vio for the splendid trip report. So whenever I am going to Raratonga, I would definitely like to be at the helm of such a little Cessna doing a round robin flight.

Best,

D-aqui

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