ba282
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Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:41 pm

While perusing photos on A.Net, I found a recent cockpit photo of a TAM A350 cockpit. In it, there is a screen showing the what looks like the Windows desktop. Since when did A/C manufacturers (Airbus in this case) start using Windows? What would happen if the legendary "Blue Screen of Death" occurred mid-flight?


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flyDTW1992
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:45 pm

Check the caption on the photo.

Those outer screens are the EFB screens, and from the sound of it can display the desktop from pilots' computers. The flight instruments themselves are not running on Windows.
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michman
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:49 pm

Here's another shot. The screens don't look anything like Windows in this image...

http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-co...uploads/2014/12/A350flightdeck.jpg

[Edited 2016-02-20 11:51:49]
 
sk736
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 1):
The flight instruments themselves are not running on Windows.

That's a relief!
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:38 pm

G'day

Earlier this month I intended to travel on one of the newer Swiss railway (SBB/CFF/FSS) ETR 610 trains from Milan to Zurich. Shortly after crossing the border to Switzerland the thing started to develop problems and was stopped numerous times. Clearly the train had some software issues, the overhead TV's showed the operating system was restarted, the Windows operating system was displayed numerous times. After each restart we were limping from station to station and had to finally vacate the train in Bellinzona after all hopes of recovering the system were given up. The next train had no bar/restaurant service, so I was worried to dry up, besides we arrived hours late

Clearly many operating systems are based on the good or not so good Microsoft Windows operating system, even my latest PC is, and believe me, I hate it! Problem is, there i no real alternative....

Cheers

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FredrikHAD
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:50 pm

Some of the trains serviceing the west part of Sweden (Bombardier Crusalis Contessa, or X31), frequently need to reboot when stopping at a station. You can hear all fans and such powering down for 5-10 sec and then restart. Sometimes the service personnell even announces that there will be a slight delay due to a reboot! Not sure what OS is in those trains though.

Airliner: "Good afternoon everyone. Please fasten your seatbelts and remain seted during the upcoming short dive that is due to a reboot of the flight systems we need to perform in order to recover from a bluescreen here in the cockpit."

/Fredrik
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:10 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 4):
Problem is, there i no real alternative....

From big supercomputers to small controllers, some sort of Linux could do the trick. I just came across this http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7066?page=0,0 - they ported an old ATC system onto LynxOS, a sort of UNIX. And there are many Linux variants for embedded systems. Probability is high that in your house, Linux is running. It could be the solar panel controller. The internet router. Your printer. The controller unit of the central heating.


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jaybird
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:01 am

BSOD? definately in XP .. maybe in Win7 .. I don't remember getting one in Win8 .. and definately have not gotten one in Win10 ..
 
1g
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:24 am

Quoting jaybird (Reply 7):

The BSOD still definitely exists, occurred about once a month on my Win 8.1 computer, mainly because I had some shady software installed that would cause the BSODs (unsigned drivers for peripherals not designed to work with PC)
But it's definitely not as prevalent as it were in the XP days.

A BSOD was never a big deal though, every time it occurred on my PC it would just restart and everything would return to normal. But I can see it being a problem if flight control systems relied on Windows and suddenly hit a BSOD.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:30 am

The outer screens are Electronic Flight books for charts etc, I think the airline specifies the OS used.
 
mysterzip
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:05 am

That raises a good question. No computer operating system is ever fool-proof. I'm assuming there is more than one computer onboard to take over? Does anyone know about the contingencies that might be in place?

On a side note, XP was the main reason I switched to a Mac all those years ago. Come to work for an airline - and that's exactly what they use. Microsoft still has ways to go, but finally, they listened to consumers.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:12 am

Software for aircradft must be developed under the DO-178 standard which reqires strict development procedures and a very high level of qualification. Almost no commercial software would qualify.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:31 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
From big supercomputers to small controllers, some sort of Linux could do the trick. I just came across this http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7066?page=0,0 - they ported an old ATC system onto LynxOS, a sort of UNIX. And there are many Linux variants for embedded systems. Probability is high that in your house, Linux is running. It could be the solar panel controller. The internet router. Your printer. The controller unit of the central heating.

There are plenty of alternatives for critical real time systems. However they have the problem of not supporting a wide range of applications. It makes sense then to run the critical systems on a dedicated OS and offer general applications on Windows or other general purpose OS. Fortunately Windows is much more stable these days, especially if you only run fully tested application on it that are known to play nice and follow the rules. Linux is also available and many distributions will mimic the Windows desktop well to make new users feel more comfortable with it.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:01 am

Quoting txjim (Reply 11):
Software for aircradft must be developed under the DO-178 standard which reqires strict development procedures and a very high level of qualification. Almost no commercial software would qualify.

Considering these are just EFBs perhaps the requirements aren't the same as for flight control computers. Plenty of airlines use iPads for their EFBs, some of which are just an app that is downloaded into the standard iOS.

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 1):

Those outer screens are the EFB screens, and from the sound of it can display the desktop from pilots' computers.

This.

10 seconds of googling shows pilots can connect a laptop to the EFB screen in the A350.
Rather than having standalone software and licenses for just the A350, much easier integration if an airline uses Windows laptops for their other fleets.

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=30257
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:37 am

Quoting mysterzip (Reply 10):
That raises a good question. No computer operating system is ever fool-proof. I'm assuming there is more than one computer onboard to take over? Does anyone know about the contingencies that might be in place?

Yes, an aircraft computer system requires multiple computers with redundancy. The tripple 7 has 3 computers each with 3 processors constantly checking each other. One is a i486, another a 68040, and another an old AMD RISC processor. This is so that if any one compilation of the source code is wrong, the computers still run.

Newer systems still have multiple computers and multiple processors. Where they will have two identical processors that double check each other. There is a voting system. The computers also must reboot in very short periods of time.

Quoting txjim (Reply 11):
Software for aircradft must be developed under the DO-178 standard which reqires strict development procedures and a very high level of qualification. Almost no commercial software would qualify.

The FAA has many standards. I spent 6 months testing fly by wire software/computers and was amazed at the redundancy and corrections.

One test was to simulate carrying the aircraft on another vehicle (in this case a ship). Watched the Aircraft ABS system activate, pump the breaks, until the simulation had the aircraft go over the side of the ship. Oops! Fix that requirement... (Test is for insurance reasons so that if aircraft are trapped on an island with a damaged runway, there is *some* way besides flying to get them out.) I never did get all the math of the simulated GPS. For that test was done on a 'iron bird' with many flight components. (Good thing too... Found a haudraulic feedback loop that broke a part...)

I also like all the failure simulations. e.g., fail of all generators, fail primary data bus, with failure of primary power bus (possible due to certain engine/generator failure modes).

No windows computer would pass the tests. Nor an Apple Mac.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13):
Considering these are just EFBs perhaps the requirements aren't the same as for flight control computers. Plenty of airlines use iPads for their EFBs, some of which are just an app that is downloaded into the standard iOS.

The standards drop if not primary flight control. e.g., no IFE system is ever tested like the primary systems.


If done well, the software testing will find hardware issues early. e.g., the software will command flight actuators with simulator loads so that a full understanding of power bus demand loads.

But to do it well takes an expensive 'systems center' set of labs and they do not come cheap. IMHO, Bombardier did not do this approach with the C-series and thus found problems late.

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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:20 am

Quoting ba282 (Thread starter):
Since when did A/C manufacturers (Airbus in this case) start using Windows? What would happen if the legendary "Blue Screen of Death" occurred mid-flight?

I doubt they're using it for anything critical, but even if they are the BSOD is rarely an issue with the actual windows code; it's a crappy driver or a sketchy 3rd party bit of software.
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chiad
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:13 am

Quoting ba282 (Thread starter):
In it, there is a screen showing the what looks like the Windows desktop.

It's there for giving pilots the opportunity to partake in A-net discussions.
  
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:36 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 4):
Earlier this month I intended to travel on one of the newer Swiss railway (SBB/CFF/FSS) ETR 610 trains from Milan to Zurich. Shortly after crossing the border to Switzerland the thing started to develop problems and was stopped numerous times. Clearly the train had some software issues, the overhead TV's showed the operating system was restarted, the Windows operating system was displayed numerous times. After each restart we were limping from station to station and had to finally vacate the train in Bellinzona after all hopes of recovering the system were given up. The next train had no bar/restaurant service, so I was worried to dry up, besides we arrived hours late

The software operating the passenger information displays will not be the software operating the controls. It would be like someone coming on here saying a B737 runs Windows when seeing the in flight entertainment restart.

Quoting FredrikHAD (Reply 5):
Some of the trains serviceing the west part of Sweden (Bombardier Crusalis Contessa, or X31), frequently need to reboot when stopping at a station. You can hear all fans and such powering down for 5-10 sec and then restart. Sometimes the service personnell even announces that there will be a slight delay due to a reboot! Not sure what OS is in those trains though.

Like airliners, trains will use real time operating systems for critical operations as the software has to respond in a known timeframe. The software then running above that can be done in less secure but easier to develop for systems. Another very common place you see this sort of thing is in cellphones. Every smartphone on the planet runs at least two operating systems. One is the one you all know, Android, WinPhone, iOS, etc. The other is a real time operating system that handles all the cellular connectivity. This OS has to be validated by regulators and thus ideally out of reach of anything else that runs near it.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:48 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
From big supercomputers to small controllers, some sort of Linux could do the trick.

That is a possibility, however normal Linux distributions are not a real time operating system (some special ones are).

Quoting starrymarkb (Reply 9):

The outer screens are Electronic Flight books for charts etc, I think the airline specifies the OS used.

The main reason it is not built in or hard wired is it would them form part of the type certificate, and every time you wanted to change the laptop provider or software you would need to get the aircraft certificated or have an STC, operating system and software updates then become a logistical and cost nightmare. By stopping the certification at the the docking station interface, and having a standard interface that is published/certified, the end user airline is able to upgrade the EFB as technology advances without the need to re-certify the aircraft or have an STC for the changes on the laptop.

There are switches where pilots can isolate each individual EFB interface from the aircraft as well.

Quoting mysterzip (Reply 10):

That raises a good question. No computer operating system is ever fool-proof. I'm assuming there is more than one computer onboard to take over? Does anyone know about the contingencies that might be in place?

The main computers on the A350 are similar in form and function as a blade server with multiple compute blades and number of different zones, the "blades" are called core processing/input output modules (CPIOMs). There are 21-22 CPIOMs on the A350, and they are hot swappable. What used to be done by individual avionics boxes is now done as software applications on the CPIOMs. There also something similar to a database sever which acts as the on-board repository for the aircraft. On top of that there is the flight control computers, they are also like blade computers, each flight control computer internally has two channels that are physically and electrically isolated form the other channel. There are 3 primary flight control computers, and three secondary flight control computers, each dual channel, effectively 12 computers, with an additional independent backup control computer.

I think airlines could use the downtime between flights to mine for bitcoins with the raw compute power available  
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:33 pm

It's funny how people just straight out ignore the multiple posts about how the captain and F/O can connect a laptop and have the EFB screens display the desktop.

Instead they continue to talk about how the aircraft is running Windows.. which is not the case.
 
BruceSmith
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:13 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 4):

Earlier this month I intended to travel on one of the newer Swiss railway (SBB/CFF/FSS) ETR 610 trains from Milan to Zurich. Shortly after crossing the border to Switzerland the thing started to develop problems and was stopped numerous times. Clearly the train had some software issues, the overhead TV's showed the operating system was restarted, the Windows operating system was displayed numerous times. After each restart we were limping from station to station and had to finally vacate the train in Bellinzona after all hopes of recovering the system were given up. The next train had no bar/restaurant service, so I was worried to dry up, besides we arrived hours late

It could also be that the train was having power issues like a failing phase pickup shoe or a generator/regulator fault and that was causing the overhead displays to reboot constantly. Those displays are usually independent of the train control systems, but are dependent on train-supplied power.

Same as when the IFE reboots in your aircraft, the pilots aren't rebooting the flight computers to do that.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:33 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 4):
Clearly many operating systems are based on the good or not so good Microsoft Windows operating system, even my latest PC is, and believe me, I hate it! Problem is, there i no real alternative....

Careful to confuse desktop operating systems with embedded systems. Control systems tend to have vastly reduced versions of more general operating systems, containg only what they need (often because of space constraints, like 2MB space for the OS, or something like that). With Linux this is easy, because the source is available and you can compile the bits that you need. Similarly, Windows Embedded (not sure about the correct name) allows you to install the OS components that you need. There are also purpose built realtime operating systems - VxWorks and QNX are probably the two most popular.

What is a problem is when mission critical applications are run on top of consumer hardware running a consumer OS, often in terrible configurations (like on top of an administrator account). Case in point is the departure/arrival/gate screens that, at many airports, can be seen WindowsXP Home reboot loops - not only the wrong tool for the job, but also a clear violation of the terms of use.

It's common wisdom but completely wrong that Windows can run reliably. At work we migrated some old servers from an old datacenter to a new one (this was about a decade ago). Before the physical move, we did a bunch of checks, and found that the longest running server uptime was a Windows 2000 server. The group included Linux, FreeBSD and a handful of Solaris boxes. Of course, none of them were fully patched, so this is nothing to brag about for any party involved.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
From big supercomputers to small controllers, some sort of Linux could do the trick. I just came across this http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7066?page=0,0 - they ported an old ATC system onto LynxOS, a sort of UNIX. And there are many Linux variants for embedded systems. Probability is high that in your house, Linux is running. It could be the solar panel controller. The internet router. Your printer. The controller unit of the central heating.

If you have a home router made in the last 15 years, it's almost certainly running some form of linux. Even the big-iron network hardware increasingly run a linux kenel/network stack with the vendor's own management interface glued on top. If you have an Android phone, you have linux in your pocket.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13):
10 seconds of googling shows pilots can connect a laptop to the EFB screen in the A350.
Rather than having standalone software and licenses for just the A350, much easier integration if an airline uses Windows laptops for their other fleets.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ight-bag-offering-for-a350-330193/ has that picture and says:

Quote:
"Unlike the A380's class 3 solution, where computers that are part of the aircraft are connected to flightdeck screens, the A350's class 2-plus EFB enables a pilot to connect his laptop into the docking station and control it using the KCCU [keyboard cursor control unit] on the pedestal or the keyboard and touch panel integrated into the table, and it will be displayed on the lateral outer screen."

I looked for a picture of the docking station and couldn't find one.

I'm interested since one thing that isn't very standardized is laptop docking stations.

Quoting chiad (Reply 16):
It's there for giving pilots the opportunity to partake in A-net discussions.

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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:41 pm

This

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
Careful to confuse desktop operating systems with embedded systems


and this:

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
There are also purpose built realtime operating systems - VxWorks and QNX are probably the two most popular.


You need an "operating system" to support real-time domains with guaranteed execution times.

In these systems you can also not allocate memory dynamically and not work with pointers to memory positions as this can get unexpected behaviour.

ADA was at least in the old times the preferred programming language for nuclear plant control systems and I believe it has been used in flight control systems also.

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
found that the longest running server uptime was a Windows 2000 server

There was a while when Windows OS was not that bad. With the introduction of Windows NT that was mostly designed by the guys who made the VMS OS it was very robust. Windows 2000 was still Windows NT based. With Windows XP Microsoft decided to let drivers to run in ring 0 of the CPU (the most secure layer in the X86 CPUs) and with that the stability was gone.
Anyway, Windows OS was never built to be a secure real-time platform and should never be attempted to be used as such.

As mentioned earlier in this thread there is no issue to have the external display connector on the laptop connected to one of the cockpit displays supporting this as it is just a display switch handling it. The software in the laptop can do whatever it want but it can never interfere with flight controls.
 
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting poolkeeper (Reply 23):
and I believe it has been used in flight control systems also.

I've read somewhere that Ada is still used in recent rockets (like Ariane 5) and spacecraft - and that the paradigms of Ada make it difficult to do programming errors.

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
Careful not to confuse desktop operating systems with embedded systems.

I sign this too. Sometime, I'm buying a Raspberry Pi computer. It doesn't come with a screen, it will run a very basic Linux, and it is still suited to control weather stations, webcams, roboters... and now there are even professional metal housings for these little computers, so they can be used to control industrial apparatuses or apparatii.


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zeke
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 24):
I sign this too. Sometime, I'm buying a Raspberry Pi computer. It doesn't come with a screen, it will run a very basic Linux, and it is still suited to control weather stations, webcams, roboters... and now there are even professional metal housings for these little computers, so they can be used to control industrial apparatuses or apparatii.

That would be running something like Raspbian Wheezy with latency that is too high for a embedded control systems as the kernel is configured PREEMPT. With Wheezy you would be looking at a maximum latency of around 1200 micoseconds, that is not good enough for real time applications like embedded control systems. Linux kernel can be patched with PREEMPT_RT to provide a pseudo real time operating system with a maximum latency of around 60 microsecnds, not bad for a 800 Mhz clock. That runs nicely on RasPi or other boards like UDOO.
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:45 am

Quoting jaybird (Reply 7):
I don't remember getting one in Win8 .. and definately have not gotten one in Win10 ..

To be fair, just because you haven't seen any BSOD's doesn't mean they don't exist anymore.

Quoting 1g (Reply 8):
The BSOD still definitely exists

  
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:30 am

Quoting mysterzip (Reply 10):
That raises a good question. No computer operating system is ever fool-proof. I'm assuming there is more than one computer onboard to take over? Does anyone know about the contingencies that might be in place?

I think the 330 has on the order of 160 computers on board. Unless you count the individual AVOD boxes I suppose. Either way it is a lot. The architecture is very componentized with specialized boxes performing specialized functions. For example we have two computers for running window heat.

Regarding flight control, we have 5 flight control computers, 3 primaries and 2 secondaries. You can control the aircraft with any one of these, though you will lose protections depending on lost computers. The flight control computers get their inputs from an array of other computers, like the Slap Flap Control Computers, the Landing Gear Control and Interface Units, the System Data Acquisition Concentrators and so forth.

We can reset computers in flight. Did it just the other day in fact. It's typically no big deal but of course you want to check the proper procedure first so you don't do anything stupid. Resetting a computer brings it back to a known starting state, meaning the vast majority of errors go away.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 12):
Fortunately Windows is much more stable these days, especially if you only run fully tested application on it that are known to play nice and follow the rules. Linux is also available and many distributions will mimic the Windows desktop well to make new users feel more comfortable with it.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 15):
Quoting ba282 (Thread starter):
Since when did A/C manufacturers (Airbus in this case) start using Windows? What would happen if the legendary "Blue Screen of Death" occurred mid-flight?

I doubt they're using it for anything critical, but even if they are the BSOD is rarely an issue with the actual windows code; it's a crappy driver or a sketchy 3rd party bit of software.

Indeed. Most people hear Windows and think "my unstable desktop". Well designed and executed corporate Windows installations are very stable since they don't include untested apps and drivers, and they don't sit in an unprotected, undocumented state without change control.
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:07 am

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
Careful to confuse desktop operating systems with embedded systems

Exactly, though it can be confusing because special versions of Windows are offered as embedded systems - nowadays as two related product streams - Windows Embedded Standard, which is a desktop version of Windows but cut down to what the customer requires , and Windows Embedded Compact, formerly Windows CE, which runs a kernel that's expressly optimised for low-power or narrow-use equipment.

General Electric, for example, used Windows XP Embedded to run the driver's displays and certain control inputs on their locomotives (don't know what they do now, though). You'll also see countless ATMs worldwide running XP... which is only a recent development as many of them were still using IBM OS/2 well into this Millennium.

Perhaps most interestingly though, the driver's displays in Alstom Citadis trams run Windows 3.11.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):
Most people hear Windows and think "my unstable desktop". Well designed and executed corporate Windows installations are very stable since they don't include untested apps and drivers

  
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:17 pm

On a related note, this photo shows Windows XP on the Sukhoi Superjet SSJ 100:


Yakutia Sukhoi Superjet SSJ 100-95B RA-89012 Singapore Airshow 2016 by JKKW, on Flickr
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
On a related note, this photo shows Windows XP on the Sukhoi Superjet SSJ 100:

You must be joking right... They could of at least used Win7 Embedded....

That said, I have seen Win2000 being used on pictures of Boeing test aircraft computers as late as the 2008 period.
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ZaphodHarkonnen
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RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:24 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
On a related note, this photo shows Windows XP on the Sukhoi Superjet SSJ 100:

I'm guessing that's another EFB.

As for old OSes on aircraft? Win 3.1 was still being used mid last decade for IFE systems if I remember correctly. XP for these things should be adequate as long as it is properly decoupled from the flight control system. If your EFB or IFE crashes/infected with malware it's annoying, but at least it isn't the FCS.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7707016.stm

And just last year Orly had a major problem when one of their Win 3.1 boxes crashed. A box that helped transmit weather data to planes.
https://news.vice.com/article/windows-31-is-still-alive-and-it-just-killed-a-french-airport
 
opethfan
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 am

RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:07 am

Quoting poolkeeper (Reply 23):
With Windows XP Microsoft decided to let drivers to run in ring 0 of the CPU (the most secure layer in the X86 CPUs) and with that the stability was gone.

This is factually incorrect.

Microsoft have never shipped a microkernel, which is the only kernel type not running device drivers in kernel-space (and ring 0 of an ia32 or amd64 CPU). The DOS-based products were monolithic (and incredibly crude) while the NT kernel is a hybrid. Always has been, with drivers in kernel-space. Take into account that XP was NT 5.1 to 2000's 5.0 and it's pretty obvious that they didn't do anything crazy like change the entire working model of the kernel.

The only microkernels with any kind of popularity are MINIX (created by Andrew Tenembaum, who famously debated this topic with Linus Torvalds) and Mach. Meanwhile, Linux, BSD, Solaris and others are monolithic kernels running even more in kernel-space than hybrids like Windows NT and Mac OS X do; are they stable? I'd argue very much so. More so than Windows, in many cases. There's a reason why most of the world's networking and internet infrastructure runs on Linux (and to some extent, BSD).

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 26):
To be fair, just because you haven't seen any BSOD's doesn't mean they don't exist anymore.

The Windows 8 and 10 ones have   emoticons: http://thewindowsclub.thewindowsclub...lue-Screen-of-Death-Windows-10.png

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):

Absolutely. Pity RTLinux isn't getting much love nowadays.

Quoting seat64k (Reply 21):
Of course, none of them were fully patched, so this is nothing to brag about for any party involved.

Perfect segue to mention kpatch and kGraft, which allow for live patching of a Linux kernel, reducing downtime.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:41 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 32):
Microsoft have never shipped a microkernel, which is the only kernel type not running device drivers in kernel-space (and ring 0 of an ia32 or amd64 CPU).

There are many ways in which to run device drivers in user space these days, and Microsoft have had a device driver framework to do just that since the days of XP - its called User Mode Driver Framework.
 
opethfan
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:35 am

RE: Windows O/S In Airbus A350

Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:45 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 33):
There are many ways in which to run device drivers in user space these days, and Microsoft have had a device driver framework to do just that since the days of XP - its called User Mode Driver Framework.

Absolutely. A monolithic or hybrid kernel can run drivers in userspace (take FUSE, for instance: Filesystem in USErspace) but by design a microkernel cannot do the opposite.

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