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gdg9
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Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:26 pm

Question that can help settle a discussion... we all know ferry flights of course. For a foreign carrier in the U.S., let's say for example BA was getting some work done, mods or what not, on a frame in the U.S. and then after things were done, wanted to fly the aircraft back to LAX to resume regular revenue service. Can they simply ferry the flight over? Or, as a foreign carrier, do they need a type of FAA waiver, or use a US pilot, or so on?
 
COSPN
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:26 pm

Non revenue flights can do what they want ... The agreements for for revenue passenger flights
 
roseflyer
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Thread starter):
Can they simply ferry the flight over? Or, as a foreign carrier, do they need a type of FAA waiver, or use a US pilot, or so on?

A foreign airline can fly whatever it and its local regulatory authority wants if it is non revenue. They have to be careful that there are limits on flying even non revenue company employees with regards to cabotage.

The more common issue with ferry permits is that they are often related to the airplane not complying with the MEL/DDG. Airlines will often seek ferry permits to get an airplane to a more suitable maintenance location when there is a problem. Local regulatory authorities have to approve.
 
mmo
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Thread starter):
Can they simply ferry the flight over? Or, as a foreign carrier, do they need a type of FAA waiver, or use a US pilot, or so on?

As roseflyer explained, if the aircraft is having maintenance done or other things done, for instance installation of a new IFE or WIFI then the aircraft can be ferried as normal as their Ops Specs provide for that and it is pretty much a normal flight and nothing out of the ordinary is going on with the aircraft. However, they can carry non-rev passengers and non-rev freight. In reality, those items are company employees or company freight. But, in practice it is very rare to carry any non-rev passengers since the flight would have to be staffed with a minimum cabin crew. That costs money above and beyond what the company wants to pay.

A ferry permit is required for any deviation from the MEL/CDL, as roseflyer pointed out. There are reams of approvals required to accomplish the flight. The aircraft manufacturer provides their approval and any other restrictions which are imposed on the flight. The regulatory authority where the aircraft is registered has to approve and the regulatory authority from where the aircraft is departing from has to approve. Generally, if the regulatory authority where the aircraft is registered approves, then the approvals are merely a rubber stamp from the subsequent authorities. The ferry permit will also state just what crew can fly. For instance, on the 747-400 we could have a crew of 3, Capt/FO and flight engineer, even though the basic crew was 2 pilots. Very seldom are non-rev or non-essential passengers allowed. Generally, non-rev freight or co mail is not allowed. Sometimes, if ballast is needed you can get non-rev freight on, such as aircraft parts. The weather minimums are also different for a flight done under a ferry permit.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:42 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 3):

If for example BA had to position an empty 747 to LAX they could move revenue freight if they comply with all commercial regulations to operate a normal commercial flight. You wouldn't need a cabin crew, but you would need to make sure all crew regulations are complied with.

In the United States if there is no revenue a flight can be operated part 91 in which the crew does not need to meet normal cumulative and duty limitations. For example a crew can fly an ATR 15 hours from Alaska to Florida legally under part 91.

[Edited 2016-02-23 22:42:22]
 
mmo
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:44 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 4):
n the United States if there is no revenue a flight can be operated part 91 in which the crew does not need to meet normal cumulative and duty limitations. For example a crew can fly an ATR 15 hours from Alaska to Florida legally under part 91.

Not quite true. If a flight is operated under a ferry permit, it would be extremely unusual to allow revenue cargo. When I worked for a 121 carrier, our ops specs required us to comply with 121 crew rest requirements. We could not operate under part 91. In addition, the weather requirements were specific to what the aircraft configuration was, for example, a engine out ferry required a dry runway, 1000/3 and a reduced x-wind limit. I think you will find in the US most carriers would be required to operate a ferry flight under their Ops-Spec and all the restrictions would apply. In theory your statement is correct, but in practice it is wrong.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 4):
If for example BA had to position an empty 747 to LAX they could move revenue freight if they comply with all commercial regulations to operate a normal commercial flight. You wouldn't need a cabin crew, but you would need to make sure all crew regulations are complied with.

I never stated they required a cabin crew. However, if they did carry non-rev pax, a full cabin crew would be required. If there is any revenue cargo or non-rev pax, then the flight would be operated under their ops-spec.
 
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gdg9
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:37 pm

Thank you all for the responses, this adds to my knowledge of the subject. Much appreciated!
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:51 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 5):
I never stated they required a cabin crew. However, if they did carry non-rev pax, a full cabin crew would be required. If there is any revenue cargo or non-rev pax, then the flight would be operated under their ops-spec.

Your knowledge of the rules is much more expansive than mine. One experience does come to mind.

Back in 1996 when we closed the B-727 operation in Guam, we ferried the remaining aircraft through HNL back to SFO. On one occasion there were about 14 non-revs stuck in HNL trying to get back to the mainland. The station manager (?) there put them on the 727 after we RON'd. It was explained to the flight crew that 7 of these non-revs were qualified company flight attendants and volunteered to work the flight in a couple of shifts to make it legal. All the paperwork looked legal with the loads, release and everything else, so 14 non-revs each got a row of seats and superb service. Even meals were loaded.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:06 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 5):
I never stated they required a cabin crew. However, if they did carry non-rev pax, a full cabin crew would be required. If there is any revenue cargo or non-rev pax, then the flight would be operated under their ops-spec.

Question about this in more detail.

I was stuck in MSP one night and Compass was ferrying a E175 on MSP-DTW at like 2am. They had no FA's onboard so they were not taking any passengers. However they did take a handful of pilots/crew members on-board. Do they need to have a cabin crew in this case or are there differences in the definition of non-revs.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:31 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 5):
However, if they did carry non-rev pax, a full cabin crew would be required. If there is any revenue cargo or non-rev pax, then the flight would be operated under their ops-spec.

At least in the US you can take company employees or non revs approved by the DO without cabin crew, as long as its under 19 pax.
 
flyDTW1992
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 9):
At least in the US you can take company employees or non revs approved by the DO without cabin crew, as long as its under 19 pax.

Yep. I rode on a few ferry flights when I interned at Republic. That was always the point that came up, no more than 19 company personnel onboard, otherwise an FA was needed.
 
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gdg9
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:23 pm

Now I will add this - there is a NOTAM issued recently:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/media/fdc6_4255_civil_aircraft.pdf


Part 1, No. 6 says:

6) AIRCRAFT NOT REGISTERED IN THE U.S, WHEN CONDUCTING POST-MAINTENANCE, MANUFACTURER, PRODUCTION, OR ACCEPTANCE FLIGHT TEST OPERATIONS, MUST MEET ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS:
A) A U.S. COMPANY MUST HAVE OPERATIONAL CONTROL OF THE AIRCRAFT;
B) AN FAA-CERTIFICATED PILOT MUST SERVE AS PILOT IN COMMAND;
C) ONLY CREWMEMBERS ARE PERMITTED ONBOARD THE AIRCRAFT; AND
D) MAINTENANCE FLIGHT IS INCLUDED IN THE REMARKS SECTION OF THE FLIGHT PLAN.

This is the genesis for my query - in reading this, should I take it that the foreign carrier can ferry the flight on their own back to an airport as a non-rev after signing off on the work, but any flights to check on the mx work must be done by the U.S. company?
 
mmo
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RE: Ferry Vs Waiver Flight

Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:00 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 11):

This is the genesis for my query - in reading this, should I take it that the foreign carrier can ferry the flight on their own back to an airport as a non-rev after signing off on the work, but any flights to check on the mx work must be done by the U.S. company?

That is generally the case. You are using the wrong terminology. There is no such thing as a non-rev flight. It is either a ferry flight, positioning flight or a revenue flight, speaking of the flight back home after maintenance. A flight to verify the maintenance actions would just be a test flight. A flight that is ferrying an aircraft with a maintenance issue is just a maintenance ferry flight or an engine out ferry flight.

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