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RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:00 pm
by coolian2
Quoting frostyj (Reply 49):
Yes I am, I live under them..

No, you don't.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:05 am
by Viscount724
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
For example. mid-July block times for all carriers DUB-JFK vary from 7:14 to 7:30, and JFK-DUB from 6:32 to 7:00.

This actually has to do with the summer traffic at JFK, not the headwinds. LX does the same thing and pads the GVA departure and second ZRH departure with additional time to account for taxi times at JFK.

That can be a factor but even on routes where airport congestion at both origin and destination isn't an issue, westbound block times are almost always longer than eastbound. I think you'll have trouble finding any transatlantic route (or other longhaul east-west routes) where that's not the case.

Example, KEF-YEG, neither known for long delays on departure. July schedules:

Westbound: 6:40
Eastbound: 6:15

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:46 am
by ANITIX87
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 51):
That can be a factor but even on routes where airport congestion at both origin and destination isn't an issue, westbound block times are almost always longer than eastbound.

Yep, you're right, I mis-read your statement initially. I thought you were saying summer block times were longer than their equivalent winter block times. Of course WB will always be longer than EB.

TIS

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:55 am
by IPFreely
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 52):
WB will always be longer than EB.

That's because the prevailing winds are almost always from west to east. But you are missing the point of the thread -- the OP does not like the idea of headwinds:

Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds

Please provide solutions, not the same tired explanations.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:25 am
by Viscount724
Quoting IPFreely (Reply 53):
Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds

Please provide solutions, not the same tired explanations.

One solution: bring back Concorde. Looking at schedules there was very little or no difference in eastbound and westbound block times. In July 1983, AF Concordes CDG-JFK and JFK-CDG were both scheduled at 3:45 while their 3 daily 747s were 7:00 or 7:10 eastbound and all were 7:55 westbound.

BA Concordes were twice daily and westbound block times were slightly longer (5 to 15 minutes) than eastbound.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:11 am
by IPFreely
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 54):
One solution: bring back Concorde

Now that's a solution. The Concorde flew at altitudes as high as 60,000 feet where headwinds, or winds at all, are negligible. That should certainly satisfy someone who does not like the idea of headwinds. This might be the first response to actually address the topic title.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:56 pm
by mmo
Quoting Frostyj (Thread starter):
I ask because every winter this is a daily problem on Transatlantic flights. The headwinds are crazy and have a massive impact,

Perhaps you could point out just what massive impact occurs as the results of the "problem". Other than some perceived personal inconvenience, in my 40+ years of flying, I can't think of any. But, I don't have the big picture like you seem to possess. Please fill me in!!!

Mods, can we please move this out of the Tech Ops forum and put it in some other forum...such as the deleted forum!

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 1:18 pm
by Pihero
Quoting frostyj (Reply 58):
Ironically i'm doing a Meteorology degree

There's irony in that sentence ?
I'd like to know which university teaches that sort of meteorology.

Really do.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:05 pm
by flyDTW1992
Quoting mmo (Reply 57):
7.5 hours seems like a very long time for a barely 3,000 mile flight to me (I am talking from Ireland here).

3000/7.5=400mph, which is a pretty reasonable average when you factor in climbout and descent in busy airspace with complex SIDs and STARs. If it's that important to you I suppose you could charter a G650 for its 0.92 mach capability. Beyond that, it's quite simply a fact of life.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 59):
I'd like to know which university teaches that sort of meteorology.

Yup.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:43 pm
by VirginFlyer
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 54):
One solution: bring back Concorde.
Quoting IPFreely (Reply 55):
Now that's a solution. The Concorde flew at altitudes as high as 60,000 feet where headwinds, or winds at all, are negligible. That should certainly satisfy someone who does not like the idea of headwinds.

Let's go the whole hog and go for sub-orbital hops - no winds (head, tail or otherwise) to deal with that way. Well unless you're concerned about the effects of solar wind.   

Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds,

What's your take on crosswinds? I'm rather partial to them, within limits.

Thinking about the difference in flight times eastbound and westbound, I know there used to be a joke going around these parts that the reason a transtasman flight NZ to Australia was 30-60 minutes longer than Australia to NZ was because you were going uphill. Funny the number of people that actually took that as truth!

But in all seriousness, when I was training to fly, the chief pilot of the operation reminded us of an inescapable fact: as a pilot you will spend the majority of your time in headwinds (a phenomenon well explained by LH707330 in reply 34). Once you accept this fact, you can worry about other things. Like what might happen if your aeroplane was taking off on a treadmill, or what would be the result if a flock of pigeons took flight in the cargo hold.       

V/F

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:18 pm
by VirginFlyer
Quoting Frostyj (Thread starter):
Is there an alternative to this? ... Could airlines install anything on the planes?

Another thought occurred to me:

- Do not try and bend the headwind. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
- What truth?
- There is no headwind.
- There is no headwind?
- Then you'll see, that it is not the headwind that bends, it is only yourself.

Might be a viable possibility for the A320neo and A330neo?  

(With apologies to The Matrix: http://youtu.be/uAXtO5dMqEI )

V/F

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:24 pm
by mandala499
Quoting frostyj (Reply 39):
It should be pretty obvious to any aviation enthusaist that the reason why the flight was flying so low was due to the fact that it was going against the flow.

What flow? Windflow? Traffic flow? There are days when the jetstream at FL290-310 is strong enough to warrant flying that low instead of at FL350... if the difference is great enough...

Quoting frostyj (Reply 49):
Yes I am, I live under them..

What? North Atlantic Track System? No you don't. If you're in Londonderry, the nearest possible eastern end of the NATS is about 98 nautical miles to the west of you.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 53):
Please provide solutions, not the same tired explanations.

I'll give him a solution... don't fly when the headwind's too great... he doesn't like headwinds remember? He doesn't like detours either, so, either that, or take the air out of the atmosphere so there are no headwinds... oh hang on, you can't fly then...   
I'll give him another solution, fly an orbital or ballistic vehicle instead... If he can't afford one, that's his problem.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:52 pm
by IPFreely
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 64):
What? North Atlantic Track System? No you don't. If you're in Londonderry, the nearest possible eastern end of the NATS is about 98 nautical miles to the west of you.

He didn't say he lived directly under them. He just said he lived under them. Since they start at 29,000 feet and go up, everyone technically lives under them.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 61):
I'll give him a solution... don't fly when the headwind's too great... he doesn't like headwinds remember?

Good idea but he is actually looking for something to be installed on planes to defeat the headwinds:

Quoting Frostyj (Thread starter):
These headwinds are a pain.

Could airlines install anything on the planes?

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:38 pm
by Pihero
Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 60):
nother thought occurred to me:

Thanks for that .
A piece of sanity and poetry in the mad house this forum has become.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 62):
He didn't say he lived directly under them. He just said he lived under them. Since they start at 29,000 feet and go up, everyone technically lives under them.

Strange logic. Very strange logic : one is under something that is at least 100 miles away ?

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 62):
he is actually looking for something to be installed on planes to defeat the headwinds

So I understand we have here a would be weather engineer who would in stall a warp engine to kill the head winds, right ?
I wonder if you have heard about general air circulation over the Earth.
Chapter 2 of a pilot's weather course ( Chapter one is about physics of air ).

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:48 am
by IPFreely
Quoting Pihero (Reply 63):
So I understand we have here a would be weather engineer who would in stall a warp engine to kill the head winds, right ?

He is studying meteorology, not physics. I think we should give him a break.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:09 am
by mandala499
Quoting IPFreely (Reply 62):
He didn't say he lived directly under them. He just said he lived under them. Since they start at 29,000 feet and go up, everyone technically lives under them.

Where he lives is not under the same FIR as where North Atlantic Track System applies. He lives under Scottish FIR (yes, Northern Ireland is under Scottish FIR), NATS are used in Shanwick FIR and Gander Oceanic FIR. If he lives in Londonderry, the nearest border of Shanwick FIR is 98 nautical miles away. So, no he doesn't live under them unless you also accept that you everyone also lives under Since Indonesian upper control area starts at 24500, going by the same logic, everyone, technically lives under it... right? Are you serious?

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 62):
Good idea but he is actually looking for something to be installed on planes to defeat the headwinds:

Answer for the current airliners in use is simple, NO THERE ISN'T ANYTHING THAT CAN BE INSTALLED IN THE AIRPLANES CAN USE TO DEFEAT HEADWINDS. Hence my previous solutions...
Heck shove an aerospike on a ballistic vehicle for all I care...

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 64):
He is studying meteorology, not physics.

If he is studying meteorology, he should understand that airplanes cannot change the weather around it. Either that, or he's just pulling everyone's leg... including you.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:25 am
by Mir
Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 24):
The thing is, what you lose one way you gain in the other.

Actually, you always come out behind when wind is involved. You can't gain back what you lost, because the fact that the headwind slows you down means that it affects you for longer, whereas the tailwind doesn't affect you for as long.

Let's say you have a 1000 mile trip to cover, and your aircraft flies at 500 knots. With no wind it's a two hour flight. With 50 knots of tailwind, it becomes a 1.81 hour flight. Going back the other way into a 50 knot headwind, it takes 2.22 hours. The total time back and forth is now 4.03 hours instead of the four hours it would normally take. A small difference, sure, but you're still coming out behind.

This all assumes that the wind is constant, of course - varying the route to avoid stronger headwinds and take advantage of stronger tailwinds can make things work out in your favor.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds, I would take no tailwinds to get rid of the idea of headwinds.

Unfortunately, we can't do that. And for good reason, since the same things that make our planet habitable create the wind patterns that your despise.

-Mir

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:57 am
by flipdewaf
Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds,


Yeahbut........... andbut.........thenbecause.....andthenyou .......   

Headwinds aren't an idea they are a thing that exists.
You can not like spiders
and you can not like the idea of spiders in your bed
But you cannot dislike the idea of spiders.

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 62):

Good idea but he is actually looking for something to be installed on planes to defeat the headwinds:

Engines? although they only create headwinds. hmmm.

Fred

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:04 pm
by Pihero
Quoting IPFreely (Reply 64):
He is studying meteorology, not physics.

So I add more precision to the question I asked earlier :

Quoting Pihero (Reply 57):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 59):
I'd like to know which university teaches that sort of meteorology.

... which doesn't use any physics.

If there is a field that impacts our everyday's life and needs an enormous amount of physics, associted with some of the most powerful computers around, it's meteorology.
(Btw, even the wind speed can be - and is - computed. At our level, any slide / circular computer can provider you with an accurate value of the winds aloft that you'd encounter ( it's called *geostrophic wind ).
Behind those lovely weather maps your favourite TV station shows you, there is an awful lot of computation ).

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:37 pm
by SAAFNAV
Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):

I don't personally like the idea of headwinds

I personally don't like taxes, or STD's, but what can you do, hey?

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:10 am
by lapper
Quoting thegman (Reply 48):
Are you guys familiar with the Nat Track system?

I was aware of the different vertical separations but not the NATS. Thanks for educating me!

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:36 pm
by BravoOne
Quoting Lapper (Reply 70):
I was aware of the different vertical separations but not the NATS. Thanks for educating me!

Take a look at these videos as they can help you understand the NAT. A little bit out of date as they implemented the.5 degree tracks on the two most wind effective routings. (Inner two tracks).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJTjwW5ZYas

https://vimeo.com/98941796

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:22 pm
by thegman
Quoting Lapper (Reply 70):
I was aware of the different vertical separations but not the NATS. Thanks for educating me!

As long as one person learns something new I'm happy. Plus it helps me understand something I use regularly.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:56 pm
by VirginFlyer
Quoting frostyj (Reply 26):
I don't personally like the idea of headwinds

Sadly it seems he doesn't like the idea of a.net anymore, either. A shame. I was really looking forward to the follow up thread asking what could be fitted to an aircraft to maximise tailwinds...   

V/F

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:11 am
by signol
Maybe planes could try tacking, like a sailing boat going against the wind...

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:12 am
by IPFreely
Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 69):
I personally don't like taxes, or STD's, but what can you do, hey?

The OP does not like the idea of tailwinds and he wants something installed on planes to prevent tailwinds.

In the case of you not liking STD's, there is something you can install to prevent STD's.

RE: Solutions To Headwinds On Tatl

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:44 am
by 77west
This whole thread smells of one big trolling session to me....

Trolololol everybody.