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1337Delta764
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Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:23 pm

Considering the recent defeat device scandal with VW diesels, I was wondering, is it possible that airliners may incorporate defeat devices to cheat emissions tests? I haven't heard of such, although it would be hilarious if Airbus did get caught doing so.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:38 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
it would be hilarious if Airbus did get caught doing so.

That would be hilarious considering that Airbus does not make aircraft engines. They use the same engine manufacturers that Boeing uses.
 
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Florianopolis
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:01 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
is it possible that airliners may incorporate defeat devices to cheat emissions tests?

I'm surprised the airline finance departments haven't asked for that feature, to be used only when flying in international airspace....

Is ICAO binding while in between countries?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:41 am

I may be wrong but I get the feeling airline engine couldn't be as efficient as they are without being pretty clean.

Quoting Florianopolis (Reply 2):
Is ICAO binding while in between countries?

I've forgotten most of Air Law, but isn't an aircraft bound by country of registration regulations while in international airspace?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
nomadd22
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:50 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
I may be wrong but I get the feeling airline engine couldn't be as efficient as they are without being pretty clean.

True for unburnt hydrocarbons, but cleaning up some things, like nitrous oxide can actually hurt efficiency a little.
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ThirtyEcho
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:46 pm

Defeat devices are only used to shut off the chemtrail generators during inspections.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:22 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 5):
Defeat devices are only used to shut off the chemtrail generators during inspections.

Where is that damn "Like" button???   
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caoimhin
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:15 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
I've forgotten most of Air Law, but isn't an aircraft bound by country of registration regulations while in international airspace?

Generally yes, this is correct. But there are some tricky nuances resulting from climate agreements. ICAO was explicitly granted a mandate to manage emissions standards under Kyoto. Some argued that they dropped the ball (under Paris as well), thus the EU ETS aviation sector was born.

Still, to Florianopolis's point, under ETS there would be economic incentive for some carriers to minimise (reported) emissions.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:32 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
I may be wrong but I get the feeling airline engine couldn't be as efficient as they are without being pretty clean.

Nomadd said it already - higher temperatures are creating more NOx emissions.

That is one of the biggest Diesel issues anyway - the Diesel is much more efficient than a Petrol driven car, but the combustion process creates more NOx.
 
wingscrubber
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:21 pm

One could argue that the envelope protection used on Airbus aircraft is a sort of STALL defeat device.....?!
But if you're looking for examples of where logic based switching algorithms like the VW 'emissions mode' on it's Bosch ECUs are used, the envelope protection one is the best example I can think of, but there will be numerous instances of the same type of software controlled functions throughout aircraft systems.

It's hard to find an analogous 'cheat' to the VW/Bosch ECU emissions mode, which basically just switched on the Evap and smog pump systems when interrogated during the test, resulting in the real world driving vs rolling road OBD II emissions disparity that was interpreted as the 'cheat' that hit the news. (Nm that the Ford Windstar did this back in the 90s too and OBD II quoted emissions figures are inherently unreliable but hey ho I digress)

The next most scandalous equivalent to emissions-gate in aerospace is probably the Koito industries qual test falsification for their seats that were delivered to Boeing and ANA..? Koito tried to pass off a similarity report as an original test report, I know that as a result they had their EASA parts manufacturer approval revoked, not sure about the US though.

So the reality is, working for any aerospace OEM as a supplier, be it Airbus, Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier entails having everything you do scrutinised and tested to death, specifically because there is very high sensitivity to corporate risk and scandal within Aerospace, probably even more so than in automotive - in theory this shouldn't leave much room for deviance.

That said, aerospace is not immune to protectionism and corporate espionage or cheating and so the kind of fearmongering headline like 'Airbus/Boeing uses defeat device!' is easy to imagine. But as a previous commenter pointed out, all the OEMs use the same pool of suppliers, much like VW is not the only company that Bosch sells its ECUs to (and emissions test OBD II software), and so this makes it hard to single out an individual OEM unless something publically fails on their aircraft, like the 787 battery fires or the A380 rotor burst...

It's generally the second or third tier suppliers that take the heat, and the day-to-day disputes and disagreements at that level are usually too mundane to make the headlines - stating performance / reliability / weight number targets that you later fail to meet is just business and salesmanship, my observation anyway.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Are Defeat Devices Possible In Airliners?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:15 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 8):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
I may be wrong but I get the feeling airline engine couldn't be as efficient as they are without being pretty clean.

Nomadd said it already - higher temperatures are creating more NOx emissions.

That is one of the biggest Diesel issues anyway - the Diesel is much more efficient than a Petrol driven car, but the combustion process creates more NOx.

the leaner, at higher pressures and hotter you let a combustion run, the more efficient it is concerning CO2 emissions, but the more NOx it produces.
From what I understand NOx is actually wanted in the upper atmosphere, as it works an an anti-greenhouse gas up there and help to build up the ozone layer, but on the ground, especially in higher concentrations, like in cities, it can cause health issues.

Jan

[Edited 2016-04-16 17:17:27]
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