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uclax
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Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:04 pm

Hello All,
On the two aborted landings I've experienced as well as on videos I've watched, the first thing I've noticed is a momentary feeling of a gentle fall just before the feeling of thrust and climb. Is this just the inertia of downward motion before the increased thrust can change the direction?
Thanks in advance!
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TWA772LR
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:23 pm

I believe so. Just like how you feel yourself go back in your seat on takeoff.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:42 pm

Quoting uclax (Thread starter):
Is this just the inertia of downward motion before the increased thrust can change the direction?

Well, I usually get those feelings when flaps get retracted. Since that does happen on a go-around, it could be that.

Otherwise, you really should just feel pressed down and back into your seat as thrust and climb rate increase.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:18 pm

Where were you sitting in the plane? Perhaps at the back you feel the back of the plane sink initially as it pitches up?
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BreninTW
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:14 am

My only experience of an aborted landing was with me seated over the wings (or right behind them) in a CX A333. We were conducting a smooth landing when all of a sudden I felt myself being pushed into the seat in much the same way as on take off. I don't remember if I heard the engines spool up (although I must have).

I don't recall any "falling" feeling ... just the effect of a mid-air take off.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
Well, I usually get those feelings when flaps get retracted.

I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:41 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):

I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?

To a point, no. When flaps are in the landing configuration they produce far more drag than lift. Raising the flaps * reduces a massive amount of drag without losing very much lift when selecting TOGA.

* To a certain point. Obviously not all the way.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:17 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?

Not being a pilot, I don't know the exact procedure. But during the only go-around on which I've been a passenger (AA 752 at BOS if I remember correctly), the flaps were retracted to a lower setting very quickly (I had a nice view of the wing). Yes I heard the engines start spooling up first, but everything happened within maybe 5 seconds.

Climb rate (in a steady climb) is generally proportional to excess thrust (basically, thrust minus drag). Once the engines start to spool up, the excess thrust goes up very quickly. Reducing flaps will reduce drag a heck of a lot (same as retracting gear), and will increase excess thrust even more.

By the time the flaps are at the new lower setting, your engines are quite likely already at TOGA, and you really don't have to worry about stalling.

This is one of my favorite go-around videos. When they decide to GA, it sounds they first increase thrust, then retract flaps to 20, then raise gear. All within a few seconds. And it's amazing how quickly the aircraft goes from a high-drag descent to a lower-drag climb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjeyQdvxgj4
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jetwet1
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:34 am

This one really shows how quickly the pilots work to get the plane configured for the climb out during a go around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0fVI4l8KQM&nohtml5=False
 
Cadet985
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:03 am

I was in an aborted landing/go around a few years back at TLV. We were coming in on a normal approach, the nice houses and pools of the towns near the airport were easily in view, I even remember passing over the airport fence. All of a sudden, the engines roared, and the plane went into a very steep climb - I'm probably exaggerating, but I thought the only 747 that could could climb that steeply was Air Force One, and then only in an emergency. Apparently, work was being done on one of the runways, and some construction vehicle forgot to check in with the tower, or even just look up...I mean a DL 744 can't be that hard to miss!

Well, when we got on the ground, airport personnel were waiting at the end of the Jetway to apologize for the inconvenience. I have to figure that in addition to getting the scare of a lifetime, the worker was probably fired. Literally one second more, and I hate to think what might have happened to construction guy, plane, passengers, and crew.

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Rara
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?
Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 5):
To a point, no. When flaps are in the landing configuration they produce far more drag than lift. Raising the flaps * reduces a massive amount of drag without losing very much lift when selecting TOGA.

Yeah. This is something I only realized relatively late into my interest with aviation. The high flap settings during approach aren't primarily to generate lift, but to add drag so that the aircraft can keep thrust relatively high. Otherwise thrust would be so low that it would take too long for the engines to spool up in the event of a go-around. Flap settings for take-off give a pretty good idea of what the flap setting for maximum lift should be; it's usually a lot lower than flap settings for final approach. So, an aircraft going around can immediately reduce flaps to that level (and subsequently lower levels as speed increases).
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vikkyvik
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:40 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
Flap settings for take-off give a pretty good idea of what the flap setting for maximum lift should be; it's usually a lot lower than flap settings for final approach.

To be clear - the greater flap settings for approach probably do give more lift than the takeoff flap settings. But with the large drag increase, your lift-to-drag ratio goes down.

Since lift-to-drag ratio can be proportional to glide raito, it's basically a measure of efficiency. Excess drag inhibits climbing.
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zeke
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:03 pm

Aborted/rejected landing means the aircraft has made contact with the ground

Go-around is before a landing

Different procedures/techniques
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Jetlagged
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:04 pm

Quoting uclax (Thread starter):
Is this just the inertia of downward motion before the increased thrust can change the direction?

No. What you are feeling is acceleration, not "inertia of downward motion" by which I assume you mean momentum. The aircraft could be still travelling downwards yet accelerating upwards. You would feel the upward acceleration as soon as it started, i.e. as soon as lift started increasing, not the residual downward motion.

As someone else said, if you are seated aft of the CG you will accelerate downwards as the aircraft rotates then upward as it starts to climb. That could explain how you perceived the motion.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:44 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
So, an aircraft going around can immediately reduce flaps to that level (and subsequently lower levels as speed increases).

On Boeing airplanes, the procedure during a go-around is to go from Flaps 30 (landing flaps) to Flaps 20 (the highest takeoff setting). The Pilot Flying calls FLAPS 20, and then GEAR UP once a positive rate of climb is established. I would assume Airbus does similar. So you are correct. They immediately reduce flaps.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:49 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?

Thanks for the answers everyone -- I admit I interpreted "raising the flaps" as "raising the flaps fully." I hadn't considered a partial retraction to take-off-like settings, so I appreciate both the education as well as the polite and civilised way in which the information was imparted.
 
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Aborted/rejected landing means the aircraft has made contact with the ground

Go-around is before a landing

Different procedures/techniques

A rejected landing for us is a go-around below minimums (up to and including ground contact). You then fly the obstacle departure procedure if one exists instead of the published missed to ensure appropriate terrain clearance.

The actual procedure itself is identical.
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113312
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Pilots practice the drill of aborted landings, or missed approaches, quite frequently during simulator training. It always begins with a pitch attitude adjustment and simultaneous addition of thrust. The pilot flying announces the procedure and commands flaps to the go around setting. In some aircraft, this results in a significant pitch up. In others, must less pitch change will occur since the approach pitch angle is already close to half of the go around target pitch. Landing gear is retracted only after the altimeter indicates that altitude is in fact increasing.

Some long bodied airilners, that also approach near a level pitch angle or slightly nose down, will have a significant pitch attitude change. If seated near the rear of the aircraft, passengers may perceive a slight sinking feeling as the nose rises and the tail goes down. This also happens during normal takeoffs but few people comment on it.

I was once sitting next to a white knuckle first time flier when, during short final to RWY 24R at LAX, we went around and made an aborted landing. I had to do some fast talking to keep this seat mate from freaking out. I told her that this was routine and we were getting afforded another opportunity to sight see around Los Angeles.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:56 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 4):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
Well, I usually get those feelings when flaps get retracted.

I imagine that the flaps are only retracted once the aircraft has attained a positive climb ... retracting them while the engines are still spooling up would increase the risks of a stall, wouldn't it?
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 13):
Quoting Rara (Reply 9):
So, an aircraft going around can immediately reduce flaps to that level (and subsequently lower levels as speed increases).

On Boeing airplanes, the procedure during a go-around is to go from Flaps 30 (landing flaps) to Flaps 20 (the highest takeoff setting). The Pilot Flying calls FLAPS 20, and then GEAR UP once a positive rate of climb is established. I would assume Airbus does similar. So you are correct. They immediately reduce flaps.

On the A330 the call is "Go around, flaps". The PF pitches up and pushes the thrust levers to TOGA. The PM selects the next higher flap setting and says "flaps 3". Then the PF calls the FMA modes and the PM calls "check". Only then does the PM call "positive climb", and the PF commands "gear up". So gear retraction is in fact later than on a take-off. You want to be really sure that you're not still sinking. Even more important is calling the modes to ensure the plane is doing what you think it should be. If you're not in SRS, the flight directors will not indicate the correct pitch attitude or the go around track.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 7):
This one really shows how quickly the pilots work to get the plane configured for the climb out during a go around.

Funnily enough, one of the more common criticism is that you're rushing the go around. Be slow and methodical. It doesn't matter how slowly you think you're going. Outside your bubble of perceived accelerated time, you're going way faster than the plane will react anyway.  
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BreninTW
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:18 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
If you're not in SRS

I'm going to assume that SRS here does not mean "supplementary restraint system" -- mind telling me what it does mean?
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:25 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 13):
On Boeing airplanes, the procedure during a go-around is to go from Flaps 30 (landing flaps) to Flaps 20 (the highest takeoff setting). The Pilot Flying calls FLAPS 20, and then GEAR UP once a positive rate of climb is established. I would assume Airbus does similar. So you are correct. They immediately reduce flaps.

Sorry but which Boeing are you referring to? Not all are the same....

With my company on the B736/7/8 from a flap 30 or 40 landing its "Go around, go around thrust, Flap 15......"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:16 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
If you're not in SRS

I'm going to assume that SRS here does not mean "supplementary restraint system" -- mind telling me what it does mean?

Speed Reference System. It's the vertical mode from take-off (or go-around) to acceleration altitude. It keeps the speed in a range from V2+10 to V2+15.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:43 am

Quoting Whiteguy (Reply 19):
Sorry but which Boeing are you referring to? Not all are the same....

With my company on the B736/7/8 from a flap 30 or 40 landing its "Go around, go around thrust, Flap 15......"

Suppose that makes sense, since the 737 doesn't have a Flaps 20 detent.
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zeke
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RE: Aborted Landings From Passenger Viewpoint

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:34 am

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