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nema
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Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:37 am

Ive read different articles on why we are asked to switch mobile phones off before take off.

I know that in the past there have been serious issues where they have caused interference with flight instruments but i also hear nowadays that instruments are shielded, yet were still asked to turn phones off.

Whats more, i also read that still many people just dont turn them off regardless and the requests to do so are never enforced aggressively, so just what is the situation on this?
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:43 am

When you mean switched off, do you mean turn it to Airplane Mode?

I thought the FAA have ruled that phones on Airplane Mode can be used from gate to gate, so I don't think it's a big problem nowadays, at least on American carriers.
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nema
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 1):
When you mean switched off, do you mean turn it to Airplane Mode?

Well i am really thinking about the number of people who apparently overlook or dont bother either way and, the fact its not heavily enforced thus, whether or not there really is a safety issue in leaving them on.

[Edited 2016-04-17 02:53:41]
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rutankrd
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:56 am

Aircraft can/should be fitted with radio interference suppressors .

The main/probably only thing with mobiles is when they ping for a transmitter, you know like in your cars and you hear annoying sound on FM wavebands.
 
opticalilyushin
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:28 am

Dangerous - No, Annoying - Yes
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:35 am

There's never been an accident (to my knowledge) due to phones accidentally left on. Yet, even before the regulations changed, I'm betting at least 1 people accidentally left a phone on in a given flight. This has been going on the last 15 years at least.

I am not saying there couldn't be interference or that there is no risk. But the risk appears to be low.
 
SimProgrammer
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:57 am

Airbus has tested it to death. Mobiles only work below FL014 and over mobile enabled land. On board wifi proves it's safe.
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LAX772LR
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:05 am

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

If they truly could, then they wouldn't be allowed in the cabin... plain and simple.

I mean, we're talking about the industry that, for quite some time, wouldn't allow blunted paper scissors and nail clippers, for cryin' out loud.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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GlenP
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:21 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 1):
When you mean switched off, do you mean turn it to Airplane Mode?

Unfortunately, the allowing of airplane or flight mode (you can see it described as either by manufacturers) isn't really an indicator.

The issue arose due to the possibility that, as phones transmit in order to find a radio base station to affiliate to, once above the fairly low level, short range coverage provided by mobile / cell base transceiver stations, they would be constantly polling for a station. It was these transmissions; probably collectively for a full flight's worth of phones, which were held to be the potential problem.

Much of the concern seems to have been based on such very real incidents as that of the Argentine football (soccer) club that crashed in the Andes, due to one of the players deciding to listen to a transistor radio, which screwed up the instruments, due to electro-magnetic interference. It was that long ago that I can't remember even the name of the film they made about it, but the survivors ended up resorting to cannibalism to stay alive, so it was a fairly well known accident,

Flight / airplane mode works by disabling the transmit function on your phone, limiting it to receive only, thus eliminating any possible issues cause by transmissions; similar systems are used by WIFI equipped devices & modern emergency services radios; in the latter case this is for when they have to enter hospitals in countries where it is still held that transmitting radio devices can interfere with equipment in the intensive care units.
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thaiflyer
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:30 am

Quoting GlenP (Reply 8):
uch of the concern seems to have been based on such very real incidents as that of the Argentine football (soccer) club that crashed in the Andes, due to one of the players deciding to listen to a transistor radio, which screwed up the instruments, due to electro-magnetic interference

A transistor radio only listens to radio signals and doesn't transmit anything.
So it is impossible for a transistor radio to interfere with anything.
 
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cougar15
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:30 am

Quoting nema (Reply 2):
Well i am really thinking about the number of people who apparently overlook or dont bother either way and, the fact its not heavily enforced thus, whether or not there really is a safety issue in leaving them on.

It´s a non issue! I regulary jumpseat on my companies freighters. Nobody turns off their mobile or switches it to flight mode, the things lie on the centre console & text messages trickle in thick & fast during landing & when in range again. On that note, I once received a text over afganistan at 37K Ft whilst jumpseating to SIN! That one left me stunned!
However, here we are talking about freighters & interference of 2 or 3 phones from the Skippers and the odd jumpseating pax. I have no idea if interferance would be an issue with 200odd phones being left on....?
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:37 am

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 9):
A transistor radio only listens to radio signals and doesn't transmit anything.
So it is impossible for a transistor radio to interfere with anything.

Nowadays, yes, But 30 years ago the super het home made transistor radios definitely transmitted as well.
 
thaiflyer
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:40 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 11):
Nowadays, yes, But 30 years ago the super het home made transistor radios definitely transmitted as well.

But we don't live 30 years ago.
And i don't think that many 30 years old planes do commercial flights anymore or that people are using 30 years old transistor radios on a plane.
 
hz747300
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:59 am

Ok, I firmly believe it is a non-issue. But...

On my flight from PHX-YVR on 2-Jan of this year, we were getting ready to land around midnight and the captain came on the intercom and asked that our phones be turned off completely and not just put into flight mode. He said that we were doing an automated landing due to near zero visibility with heavy fog so hence him giving explicit instructions. From above on the downwind leg, there were some parts of the airport which seems socked in and some that were fine, but I'm no pilot. Once on the ground, it was really cool as we were taxiing through literal clouds on the ground then you could see stars then absolutely nothing which continued until the gate.

Now, I'm wondering if, a) there is something to it really; b) or it is a why take the chance.

If you were wondering, I complied with the request.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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zeke
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:28 pm

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
I know that in the past there have been serious issues where they have caused interference with flight instruments but i also hear nowadays that instruments are shielded, yet were still asked to turn phones off.

This is incorrect. Flight instruments on some aircraft have always had electromagnetic shielding, some dont. As a passenger you just dont know. Radios on aircraft however are tested to not cause interference during regular maintenance, mobile phones are not.

The problem with mobile phones is not the phone that is in brand new condition that has been tested by to manufacturer to conform to standards, it is the phone that has been dropped, exposed to water, overcharged, anything that can change its performance from when it left the factory. No passenger tests their phone, so airline ask that be turned off as airline have an obligation that only known transmitters are used in flight.

Quoting nema (Thread starter):
Whats more, i also read that still many people just dont turn them off regardless and the requests to do so are never enforced aggressively, so just what is the situation on this?

If you fail to follow a crew members direction you can be arrested and banned for flying for life.

Quoting opticalilyushin (Reply 4):
Dangerous - No, Annoying - Yes

It can be dangerous, a passenger does not know when it is a critical phase of flight. You can say the same thing about not wearing a seatbelt. Not wearing one most of the time is not dangerous, it is annoying, but do you really known when you will need it ?

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 5):
There's never been an accident (to my knowledge) due to phones accidentally left on.

There have been many issues in the past with GPS approaches and coupled ILS approaches. We still make another PA before commending coupled approaches to tell passengers to turn their phones off.

Quoting SimProgrammer (Reply 6):
Mobiles only work below FL014 and over mobile enabled land.

This is false, I have used my phone many times when flying privately in a turboprop at FL350. Also have used my ipad to get Wx updates via 3G/4G data. I can assure you however you can hear the cell phone as it changes from base station to base station over the VHF radio and intercom.

Quoting SimProgrammer (Reply 6):
On board wifi proves it's safe.

Onboard wifi uses leaky coax technology, it is an coax cable antenna that runs down the length of the cabin above the centre of the cabin with just enough range to get to the outer seats. It does not use the technology wifi uses at home. The onboard wifi can also be switched off in the cockpit.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
IPFreely
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting thaiflyer (Reply 9):
A transistor radio only listens to radio signals and doesn't transmit anything.
So it is impossible for a transistor radio to interfere with anything.

The crash had nothing to do with a transistor radio:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster

Makes a better story than what actually happened, I guess.
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:41 am

I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.
Whatever
 
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zeke
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:52 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):

I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

Well you may as well drive around without a seat belt, as that does not effect anything either.

People like you should be banned from travelling for life. You are deliberately and consciously ignoring safety instructions which is a FAA violation.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:35 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):
I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

If the airline has asked to switch it off or switch it to flight mode, sure it does not affect anything, BUT, you're breaking the law... Your confession makes you a conscientious criminal. As a passenger, you are legally obliged to obey airline and crew safety instructions, which include turning your phone off or put it in airplane mode.

Let me know the airline(s) you usually fly and which sectors, so I know who to sell my latest gadget to... it detects WiFi scans by phones, collects their information, for law enforcement purposes, and soon, one that detects your GSM signals too...   It's a nifty, and pretty cheap device too!

If this device "takes off" commercially, you intentionally leaving your phone on or intentionally not turn it on airplane mode, WILL affect something in your life.   

Hey Zeke, would your carrier be interested in a device like this?   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:45 am

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):
I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

Apart from the legal aspects, how do you know it doesn't affect anything?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jetmatt777
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 15):
The crash had nothing to do with a transistor radio:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster

Makes a better story than what actually happened, I guess.

That has to be the most interesting thing I have read in quite a while. Thanks.
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:49 pm

Before an airline can add allowing gate to gate PEDs they have to test each configuration of each aircraft in a worst case scenario (same applies before they can enable onboard Wi-Fi) There are a few companies out there who have test kits and will go to wherever the aircraft is and set up their test gear and blast out EM signals at a strength that is way beyond what would actually be seen in real life. The aircraft systems are then checked to ensure that they don't experience any unexpected behaviors. Everything from the fuel quantity sensors to the T/Rs and flaps are tested. There is actually a DO (DO-307) that details the process and requirements (http://www.armstrongaerospace.com/capabilities/analysis/)
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
FriscoHeavy
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
People like you should be banned from travelling for life.


LOL, I can't stop laughing.


[Edited 2016-04-21 12:34:38]
Whatever
 
mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:17 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 22):
LOL, I can't stop laughing.

Which one are you laughing at...
the "should be banned" part or the "FAA violation" part?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:39 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 18):
As a passenger, you are legally obliged to obey airline and crew safety instructions

You should read 14 CFR 121.571 a bit more closely.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
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zeke
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 24):
You should read 14 CFR 121.571 a bit more closely.

Have a look at this http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2010/InFO10009.pdf

"Subject: Passenger Compliance with Crewmember Safety Instructions Regarding the Use of Portable Electronic Devices (PED)

Purpose: To inform aircraft operators of the need to have adequate procedures and training to help crewmembers ensure passenger compliance with their safety instructions regarding the use of PEDs.

Background: The FAA has received and continues to receive reports of repeated passenger noncompliance with crewmember safety instructions regarding the operation of their PEDs during restricted phases of flight. "

"FAA guidance recommends operators provide a pre-takeoff briefing on the use of PEDs, which should
also be repeated in-flight. In addition, flight attendants (F/A) should advise passengers to power off and
store PEDs in accordance with operator procedures. F/As should monitor passenger use of PEDs and
request passengers, as necessary, to: power off unapproved PEDs, or power off approved PEDs during
restricted periods in-flight, or discontinue using their approved PED in a restricted mode while in-flight.
Approved PEDs should be set in the non-transmitting mode (aka “Airplane Safe” or “Flight Safe” mode)
by disabling the wireless capabilities.

If any person refuses to comply with the crewmember’s instructions, after having been advised that their
actions are contrary to the operator’s policies and procedures, or regulatory requirements regarding the
use of their PED, the crewmember should follow the operator’s procedures and take appropriate actions in
response to the noncompliance. Crewmembers should include eyewitness statements, and whenever
possible, obtain as much of the passenger’s information for their report. If Law Enforcement Officers are
required, obtain the noncompliant passenger’s information from the responding officer(s). As with any
incident of passenger noncompliance, the aircraft operator must obtain and provide a report with enough
information to support the FAA office investigating the incident."
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:02 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 24):
You should read 14 CFR 121.571 a bit more closely.

LOL! I said safety instructions, not safety briefing. Safety instructions, are instructions that can be given at any time for safety related purposes. Let me reiterate using what Zeke quoted:

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
If any person refuses to comply with the crewmember’s instructions, after having been advised that their actions are contrary to the operator’s policies and procedures, or regulatory requirements regarding the use of their PED, the crewmember should follow the operator’s procedures and take appropriate actions in response to the noncompliance. Crewmembers should include eyewitness statements, and whenever possible, obtain as much of the passenger’s information for their report. If Law Enforcement Officers are required, obtain the noncompliant passenger’s information from the responding officer(s). As with any incident of passenger noncompliance, the aircraft operator must obtain and provide a report with enough information to support the FAA office investigating the incident.

The above, is what I meant, and is not part of 121.571. Please take more understanding of context beyond FARs per bullet point.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:53 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 26):
LOL! I said safety instructions, not safety briefing. Safety instructions, are instructions that can be given at any time for safety related purposes. Let me reiterate using what Zeke quoted:

"This briefing shall include a statement that the Federal Aviation Regulations require passenger compliance with the lighted passenger information signs, posted placards, areas designated for safety purposes as no smoking areas, and crewmember instructions with regard to these items."

That specifies the mandatory crew member instructions that must be adhered to. You can get in trouble for leaving a PED on but not because you didn't listen to the crew member instructions but rather because the PED being on is against regulations.

Quoting zeke (Reply 25):
If any person refuses to comply with the crewmember’s instructions, after having been advised that their
actions are contrary to the operator’s policies and procedures, or regulatory requirements regarding the
use of their PED,

Exactly my point, the issue is with not turning off (or disabling transmitting mode) on the PED, not with not following crew member instructions. My issue is when people make a blanket statement that all crew member instructions must be adhered to as that is simply false (from a legal perspective, from a practical perspective it's like arguing with a LEO on the side of the road you aren't going to win.)
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:53 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 27):
Exactly my point, the issue is with not turning off (or disabling transmitting mode) on the PED, not with not following crew member instructions. My issue is when people make a blanket statement that all crew member instructions must be adhered to as that is simply false (from a legal perspective, from a practical perspective it's like arguing with a LEO on the side of the road you aren't going to win.)

You need to read the discussion again. Again, context...
The reason this was said:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 18):
As a passenger, you are legally obliged to obey airline and crew safety instructions, which include turning your phone off or put it in airplane mode.

Was in reaction to:

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):

I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

To which the person, unless otherwise specified he was not told to switch it off or did not receive adequate notice to switch it off, contravenes the PED rules.

Please do not take it out of context into "blanket rule".

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 27):
My issue is when people make a blanket statement that all crew member instructions must be adhered to as that is simply false

Return to the context. What you must obey in terms of crew safety instructions are not limited to 121.571.
And please re-read what I said, I never said you must obey all crew instructions, I restricted it to:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 18):
airline and crew safety instructions

If the above is taken as "all crew member instructions" by you, then trying to make that as what my statement meant, is, let me quote you:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 27):
simply false (from a legal perspective, from a practical perspective it's like arguing with a LEO on the side of the road you aren't going to win.)
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
The reason this was said:

You didn't say all but you did "say crew member instructions including..." Without any caveats.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 28):
What you must obey in terms of crew safety instructions are not limited to 121.571.

Please provide a source.
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:09 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):
I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

Sometimes, it's like dealing with a three year old.

I suppose the best way to deal with this "I am more important than anyone else" generation is to tell you that you must leave your cell phones on. That way you would shut yours off, 'cause no one is going to tell you what to do. It's how I dealt with my kids when they were your (mental) age.

Bottom line is that you have no idea that "It does not effect anything".

It could be something like VHF interference, the most common, or when ground based navigation is used it can cause an unrealiable signal. Or it can be something like effecting the GPS receivers backing up the IRSs. This has happened to me that a RAIM check was negative and we could no longer use our alternate. We had to land short for more fuel as the next (non GPS) alternate we could use required more fuel than we had.

Maintenance could find nothing wrong with ground testing. They stated that they have seen this in the past when cell phones left on, and looking for a signal, and close to the GPS antennae, the RAIM check was negative.

So ... no one is going to tell YOU to shut your phone off ... nope ...and if it inconvenienced 200 other passengers, as long as it didn'f afffect you, you're OK with it.  
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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zeke
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:22 am

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 27):
Exactly my point, the issue is with not turning off (or disabling transmitting mode) on the PED, not with not following crew member instructions.

It is both, crew member instructions include the safety card, safety demonstration, safety video. These tell you how and when to turn your PED off to meet the approved standard. A crew member does not need to come up to you and personally give you an invitation to turn it off, just like a crew member does not need to personally tell you to put your seat belt on.

If after playing the safety briefing that tells you to turn off the PED, and you dont do that you are in violation of a crew members instruction. The airline has every right to offload you and refuse to carry you again.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 27):
My issue is when people make a blanket statement that all crew member instructions must be adhered to as that is simply false

It is not false, crew member instructions must be obeyed.

This is also normally stated in the terms and conditions of the ticket. Those T&Cs forms part of the passengers contract with the airline, a passenger in that contract will normally also agree to terms like the following you can be refused carriage

Your physical or mental condition is such that in the airlines sole opinion, you are rendered or likely to be rendered incapable of comprehending or complying with safety instructions without the assistance of an attendant.
Your conduct is disorderly, abusive or violent.
Refuse to obey instructions from any flight crew member.
Engage in any action, voluntary or involuntary, that might jeopardize the safety of the aircraft or any of its occupants.

So if you think you can just do what you like and it will have no repercussions, in that contract the passenger agreed to, the airline can refuse carriage, and that might mean a lifetime refusal for carriage.

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 29):
Please provide a source.

Have a look at the terms and conditions of any ticket you purchase. e.g. Delta " When the passenger attempts to interfere with any member of the flight crew in the pursuit of his or her duties, or fails to obey the instruction of any member of the flight crew;"

"All passengers are prohibited from engaging in any conduct that would authorize Delta to refuse transport under this Rule. "
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
klm672
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:19 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 13):
On my flight from PHX-YVR on 2-Jan of this year, we were getting ready to land around midnight and the captain came on the intercom and asked that our phones be turned off completely and not just put into flight mode. He said that we were doing an automated landing due to near zero visibility with heavy fog so hence him giving explicit instructions. From above on the downwind leg, there were some parts of the airport which seems socked in and some that were fine, but I'm no pilot. Once on the ground, it was really cool as we were taxiing through literal clouds on the ground then you could see stars then absolutely nothing which continued until the gate.

Now, I'm wondering if, a) there is something to it really; b) or it is a why take the chance.

If you were wondering, I complied with the request.

This also happened on one of my flights. We were given "special permission" to conduct a "difficult landing" and needed all cell phones OFF. DFW-FRA. FRA was pretty foggy.
 
mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 29):
Please provide a source.

You never heard of part 91, 125 and 135 operators? They have crew members whose safety instructions you need to adhere to, and guess what, they don't go with Part 121, so 121.571 doesn't apply whatsoever... Even the requirement to provide safety briefing, are present in those parts but they're 91.**, 125.**, 135.**

To use 121.571 is simply laughable. 121.571 is the part on providing safety briefing. The prohibition for non-compliance is in other articles of Part 121.

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
Have a look at the terms and conditions of any ticket you purchase. e.g. Delta " When the passenger attempts to interfere with any member of the flight crew in the pursuit of his or her duties, or fails to obey the instruction of any member of the flight crew;"

Yes, intentional/deliberate failure to comply by the passenger can be seen as obstruction/interference of crewmembers in pursuit of their duties... Which for Part 121 operators comes under...

Quote:
121.580 Prohibition on interference with crewmembers.
No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated under this part.

So, Apfpilot, so, let's say switching off your phone... it's not under 121.571... part 121 don't even cover the need to brief passengers to switch their phones off... so, does that mean having you phone on is automatically permissible? No...

So, where does the authority to tell passengers to shut their phones off comes from should the carrier wish to do so? Have a look at 121.306(b) and 121.306(c). Therefore if the carrier does not make mobile phones as an acceptable device to be used onboard, the PIC can therefore, through delegated authority to the cabin crew, instruct the passenger to switch off his/her mobile phone... So, if that's the case, are you still going to say, "no this is not in 121.571, therefore your instructions are illegal or has no legal standing"... just go ahead and try...coz you're committing a violation against 121.580.

But then again... why do I bother if you cannot even read and understand what I said... because...

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 29):
You didn't say all but you did "say crew member instructions including..." Without any caveats.

Really? WHERE? Show me... Oh hang on, let me show you:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 18):
If the airline has asked to switch it off or switch it to flight mode, sure it does not affect anything, BUT, you're breaking the law... Your confession makes you a conscientious criminal. As a passenger, you are legally obliged to obey airline and crew safety instructions, which include turning your phone off or put it in airplane mode.

Where is the no caveat? I wrote "airline and crew safety instructions", the caveat is the words "safety" in there. Either you do not understand what you're talking about, or you simply cannot read or has failed reading comprehension.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:08 pm

I have wifi calling through T-Mobile. Would I be able to use my phone in flight to make a phone call through the WiFi from the aircraft? Even over the ocean?

Not saying I'd do that, I just want to know if I could.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:34 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 34):
I have wifi calling through T-Mobile. Would I be able to use my phone in flight to make a phone call through the WiFi from the aircraft? Even over the ocean?

Not saying I'd do that, I just want to know if I could.

In my experience you have to use the operator that runs the system of the aircraft.

Also, voice tends to work badly. While the bandwidth of the connection on board is fine, lag times are way higher than on the ground due to the satellite connection.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
klm672
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:36 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 34):
I have wifi calling through T-Mobile. Would I be able to use my phone in flight to make a phone call through the WiFi from the aircraft? Even over the ocean?

Not saying I'd do that, I just want to know if I could.

I am not sure about calls, but I also have Tmobile, and I saw an ad for either T-Mobile and/or GOGO Wifi stating that we can connect to GoGo and text via wifi. I haven't tried it because I can't justify the price of wifi onboard.
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:09 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):
Have a look at the terms and conditions of any ticket you purchase. e.g. Delta " When the passenger attempts to interfere with any member of the flight crew in the pursuit of his or her duties, or fails to obey the instruction of any member of the flight crew;"

"All passengers are prohibited from engaging in any conduct that would authorize Delta to refuse transport under this Rule. "

Agreed, that however is contractual in nature and not a law or regulation

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
The prohibition for non-compliance is in other articles of Part 121.

Again, please provide a cite. Not following instructions doesn't fall under 121.580.

Quoting zeke (Reply 31):

It is not false, crew member instructions must be obeyed.

Under the T&C yes, but legally (which is what Mandala499 was talking about) there is no requirement other than the lighted signs and placards about smoking.

This however is all a semantics argument on my part. The bottom line is shut off your phone as told, will anything happen if you don't? Probably not, but the same applies to oxygen masks or life vests. Will they be needed? Probably not but it'd be pretty pissed if the airline decided to not carry them.

[Edited 2016-04-25 05:24:05]
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mandala499
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 37):
This however is all a semantics argument on my part. The bottom line is shut off your phone as told, will anything happen if you don't? Probably not,

Try and say that to Lindsay Bien-aime... She got thrown off... and there are others...

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 37):
Agreed, that however is contractual in nature and not a law or regulation

Well, aren't you legally obliged to fulfill your contractual obligation by following crew safety instructions? Oh hang on, that's not covered under FARs right? Oh hang on... I never said you are obliged to follow crew safety instructions because of regulations and statutes... Thank you for proving me right.  
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:04 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 38):
Well, aren't you legally obliged to fulfill your contractual obligation by following crew safety instructions? Oh hang on, that's not covered under FARs right? Oh hang on... I never said you are obliged to follow crew safety instructions because of regulations and statutes... Thank you for proving me right.

Not in regards to a criminal sanction you aren't like if you disobey an FAR

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 38):
Try and say that to Lindsay Bien-aime... She got thrown off... and there are others...

We agree on shutting off the PED
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PhilBy
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):
It does not effect anything.

On a plane with no onboard cell 350 phones transmitting on maximum power to try to connect to a cell is the radiological equivalent of sitting in a low power microwave for 12 hours.

On a plane with a cell the phone transmits on minimum power.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu May 05, 2016 3:10 am

Just to lighten the mood. I was on an AA MD-80 flight from BWI to DFW. Sat down and started talking to the ladies sitting next to me. Mentioned I was an engineer from Boeing.

We get the stow the cell phone speech and push back. The lady next to me is fumbling with her phone as we start taxiing. The pilot then applies the brakes, and being a typical old MD-80, the brakes grab and shudder. I turned to the lady and in an excited voice said "Thats you - turn it off". She got more flustered trying to get the phone shut off.

I chuckled and then reassured her it was just an old plane (maybe not that reassuring). Her friend also got a good laugh.
 
apfpilot
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu May 05, 2016 12:57 pm

Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 41):
I chuckled and then reassured her it was just an old plane (maybe not that reassuring). Her friend also got a good laugh.

You are the man!
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bgm
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu May 05, 2016 3:04 pm

Quoting FriscoHeavy (Reply 16):
I always intentionally leave my phone on and do not turn it on airplane mode. It does not effect anything.

Affect, not effect.

Very irresponsible behavior. It takes all of 2 seconds to put your phone on airplane mode. Next time take the bus, please. You can leave your phone switched for the whole journey!

This sort of behavior is almost as unconstitutional as Jon Stewart, right?   
 
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Florianopolis
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Thu May 05, 2016 6:48 pm

I think this sums it up....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH6QJzmLYtw
 
andz
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RE: Can Leaving A Phone Switched On Be Dangerous?

Sun May 15, 2016 5:28 pm

There is no consistency between different airlines but my opinion is if the airline requires it to be off, turn it off.

If nobody obeys the rules, there will be anarchy (I mean rules in general).

I recently flew KQ NBO-JNB and the announcement said phones may not be used at any time during the flight, but everyone else in my row (and more I'm sure) were texting through taxi, takeoff and climbout until they lost signal.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...

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