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BartSimpson
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Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun May 29, 2016 7:25 am

Hi everybody,

while browsing around and being lost in the depths of the internet I stumbled upon an entry in the Japan Airlines article on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_Airlines_incidents_and_accidents

Specifically, two accidents got my attention:

- In April 1961, a DC-8-32 broke into two and a half parts on landing at HND, was repaired and flew again! (see pictures here: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19610425-0
- In Nov 1968, a DC-8 landed in San Francisco Bay, was recovered after 55 hours, repaired and flew again!

That made me think - both aircraft but suffered a lot of structural and / or other damages (esp. from salt water in the second incident) but still were repaired, most certainly because they were fairly new at the time of their accidents (6 months old).

Would that be still be done today with modern aircraft? Would they be repaired when they were involved in an accident with similar circumstances?
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun May 29, 2016 1:35 pm

The JAL plane would be a write off today. Some pretty big repairs still get done, but I think that wouldn't. Back in the early 90's a DL MD88 had a wing replaced after a incident in LGA I believe. That along with the 787 Ethiopian repair are a bout the largest that come to mind.
 
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winterlight
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun May 29, 2016 4:38 pm

The nose of the BOAC 707 that caught fire upon landing at LHR in the 1970s was later grafted on to a TWA 707 !
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun May 29, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 1):
The JAL plane would be a write off today. Some pretty big repairs still get done, but I think that wouldn't. Back in the early 90's a DL MD88 had a wing replaced after a incident in LGA I believe. That along with the 787 Ethiopian repair are a bout the largest that come to mind.

I believe the JAL 747 that slid backwards off the taxiway in ANC was at the time the largest repair on record.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun May 29, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 2):
The nose of the BOAC 707 that caught fire upon landing at LHR in the 1970s was later grafted on to a TWA 707 !

No, that story has circulated but it's not correct. The new nose section grafted onto the TWA 707 that was bombed after being hijacked to Damascus, Syria was brand new and shipped from the factory at Renton to Damascus. Photos below of the cockpit section being prepared for shipment.

http://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/twa-707-331b-nose-repl-sea-9-69.jpg

http://leehamnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/twa-707-331b-nose-repl-sea-9-69-3.jpg
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 3:26 am

Quoting BartSimpson (Thread starter):

Would that be still be done today with modern aircraft? Would they be repaired when they were involved in an accident with similar circumstances?

sometimes. It is just like with a car, sometimes you total it some times you fix it. Every accident is different.

Shuttle America has a E70 or E75s nose basically replaced not all that long ago. (IIRC nose gear didn't come down) It was (is?) flying for Delta Connection.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 1):
Back in the early 90's a DL MD88 had a wing replaced after a incident in LGA I believe.

Also the 88 that had the engine blow in PNS. IIRC that was a pretty big job.
 
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RRTrent
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 10:16 am

The BA 777 in LAS was a pretty big job. Some posters on a.net said there was a snowballs chance in hell that it would fly again. But is back in service & flew MCO-LGW last night.
 
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BartSimpson
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 10:46 am

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 6):
The BA 777 in LAS was a pretty big job.

Yes, I thought of that one. But it seems that the damage was not as much as was people thought by looking at the pictures. Also, it had not been cut into two pieces or was drowned in salt water.

Another recent example: How much was the Hudson River waterplane damaged? If the A320 had been much newer (say 6 months as in the case of the two JAL DC-8s instead of 10 years) would it have been repaired or was the damage too big?
 
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Polot
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 1:51 pm

Quoting BartSimpson (Reply 7):
Another recent example: How much was the Hudson River waterplane damaged? If the A320 had been much newer (say 6 months as in the case of the two JAL DC-8s instead of 10 years) would it have been repaired or was the damage too big?

I suspect it would have been written off still. Unlike the JAL DC-8 at SFO the US A320 landed in deeper water and a majority of the aircraft ended up submerged. Also I believe it hit the water much harder than the DC-8.
 
BravoOne
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 6):
Some posters on a.net said there was a snowballs chance in hell that it would fly again. But is back in service & flew MCO-LGW last night.

Which of course how much some of the a netters know about aircraft in general much less how much is involved in a repair job. Just sayn 
 
Slcpilot
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 5:54 pm

How about the JAL that slid down the hill, and was repaired? Totally amazing!

Cheers!

SLCPilot

JAL 747 resting spot
JAL 747 after the slide down a hill !
I don't like to be fueled by anger, I don't like to be fooled by lust...
 
BravoOne
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Mon May 30, 2016 8:56 pm

Thanks SLC Pilot that's the one in my post #3 that I was looking for.
 
L-188
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue May 31, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting BartSimpson (Reply 7):
How much was the Hudson River waterplane damaged?

During the landing, actually not too badly.

What killed the airplane was all the steel hulled tugboats bouncing off the airframe pushing it around. And then the damage from tying it off to the dock before it was raised.

Steel vs. Aluminum, Steel always wins.

I also suspect that with the DC-8 electronics weren't quite the repair issue they would be today. They would have to pluck and chuck all the boxes anyway but the wiring itself back then I think was just a bit heavier and stronger.
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RRTrent
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue May 31, 2016 6:56 am

Not so much a repair, but on the same theme does anyone know if any of these 737 fuselages ended up being used?? id suspect not
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue May 31, 2016 9:19 am

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 13):
Not so much a repair, but on the same theme does anyone know if any of these 737 fuselages ended up being used?? id suspect not

They were shredded to tiny bits to make 100% that no parts ended up on the market.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
David L
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue May 31, 2016 9:18 pm

 
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Web500sjc
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue May 31, 2016 11:34 pm

There was QF1, a 747 over run at BKK that was repaired.

http://m.imgur.com/a/LucEz
Boiler Up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:05 am

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 16):
There was QF1, a 747 over run at BKK that was repaired.

I expect the almost new AC (still TCA then) DC-8-54F combi (CF-TJM) that overran approximately 2,000 ft. at LHR into a cabbage field after a high-speed rejected takeoff on November 6, 1963 also wouldn't be repaired today. It was repaired over the next few months by a Douglas/AC crew in a BOAC hangar and returned to service.

It's lucky that overrun at LHR wasn't more serious. Had it involved fatalities instead of just a few fairly minor injuries to the 97 aboard, it would have been a very dark month for AC as that aircraft's twin, CF-TJN, another DC-8-54F combi only a few months old, crashed just 3 weeks later on November 29, 1963 (7 days after JFK's assassination) soon after takeoff from YUL en route to YYZ, killiing all 118 aboard, AC's worst-ever accident.

Photos here (click to enlarge):
http://greyjumper.blogspot.ch/2009/01/air-crash-at-heathrow-1963.html

Other photos at the bottom here:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19631106-0

The repair team at LHR on completion of the repairs. Unfortunately that aircraft crashed at YOW on a training flight 3 years later killing the 3 crew.

 
aklrno
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:14 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5):

Quoting BartSimpson (Thread starter):

Would that be still be done today with modern aircraft? Would they be repaired when they were involved in an accident with similar circumstances?

sometimes. It is just like with a car, sometimes you total it some times you fix it. Every accident is different.

Same with ships too. A long time ago I was working at the Long Beach Navy Yard when two destroyers collided in the fog off San Diego. One had about 20 feet of its bow crushed. They put it in a dry dock and welded on the bow from a mothballed destroyer. It was not an exact fit. It looked very strange. Wish I had a picture. We had a bit of a challenge to design the interior structure repairs since the new bow was 10-12 inches narrower!
 
L-188
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:08 am

I should note that Reeve Electra 78R was built from a pax Electra that had it's nose destroyed in an accident and a freighter electra that likewise got it's tail demolished.

What I remember is that the aircraft had a series of posts that rand the length of the aircraft to support the floor above it. Made loading the bellies on that aircraft a pain the put. You had to work around them and lost a lot of space because of them.

The aircraft is now flying as a air tanker for Buffalo Airways in Canada.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:01 am

It's worth noting that in the 1950s an airliner was a rare and precious thing. While something like 7,000 737s have been made today only 1,010 707s were built and production ended in 1979. Certainly in 1960 an airliner was not an easy thing to replace.

Today airliners are easier to replace.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
It's worth noting that in the 1950s an airliner was a rare and precious thing. While something like 7,000 737s have been made today only 1,010 707s were built and production ended in 1979. Certainly in 1960 an airliner was not an easy thing to replace.

Today airliners are easier to replace.

It's like the other end of the situation of modern electronics. In the past the things were so rare, expensive, and relatively simple, that it made sense to repair. But now? Cheap, plentiful, and hard to repair make it easier to scrap your broken phone or crashed car and replace it with a new one off the manufacturing line.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:54 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
Today airliners are easier to replace.

But much more expensive. Even considering inflation, today's aircraft are at least twice as expensive as 40 or 50 years ago. The list price of a new 747 in 1970 when they went into service was around $24 million, which is equivalent to $148 million today. You can't buy any new widebody today that can carry 400 or more passengers for even twice as much.
 
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CARST
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
But much more expensive. Even considering inflation, today's aircraft are at least twice as expensive as 40 or 50 years ago. The list price of a new 747 in 1970 when they went into service was around $24 million, which is equivalent to $148 million today. You can't buy any new widebody today that can carry 400 or more passengers for even twice as much.

I think if you consider the used-aircraft-market, too, this is not true. And the market for used planes is huge and there many types available. So if an airline crashes a 15 year old 747 today, it would be easy to find replacement in the desert. If they crash a 2 year old 787, this is more difficult. And we see, a young 787 was repaired recently despite a major damage.

So perhaps the same rules apply today, that applied back then. If you can get a cheap, comparable replacement, you buy new/used. If you can't you repair.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aircraft Repair Then And Now

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 23):

I think if you consider the used-aircraft-market, too, this is not true. And the market for used planes is huge and there many types available. So if an airline crashes a 15 year old 747 today, it would be easy to find replacement in the desert. If they crash a 2 year old 787, this is more difficult. And we see, a young 787 was repaired recently despite a major damage.

Exactly. In, say, 1963, there just weren't any used 707s lying around.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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