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ryan78
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Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:35 pm

Hi all, sort of a shot in the dark here. Looking to confirm what I think is possible for some MSFS2020 flights. I'm looking to see if its possible for an A319 or A320 to operate a 2400-2600km sector departing from an 1803m long runway, at sea level, with no terrain in the vicinity and temps around 25-30 degrees Celcius. Both single class 144 and 180 pax config. The A319 has a published takeoff roll at MTOW of 1850m and the A320's is 2100m. I'm assuming both aircraft would be nowhere near MTOW for only a 24-2600km journey, they both have a range well over 6000km. So I'm assuming it is theoretically possible without blocking off seats, at least for the A319. A320 might be stretching it a bit in my eyes. I just wanted to ask if someone with some flight planning background/software can confirm my reasonings, looking to keep things as real as possible in the sim. Routing is BWW-YYZ & BWW-YUL.
 
Flow2706
Posts: 296
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:56 pm

I have flown an A320 from an 1830m
Runway. 2400km or so would be tight, but may be feasible with a reduced payload. It’s would probably be a flap 3 takeoff. Landing on these short runways can be challenging as well, but it’s doable if you don’t float. A ‘trick’ that is sometimes used if the performance is still insufficient after trying to reduce payload, fuel (reduced contingency fuel, possibly dispatching without and alternate if weather at destination permits...) etc. may be to calculate the minimum headwind component required to legally takeoff. If it’s only 2-3kts of wind that are missing, it may be worth taxiing to the holding point and wait for the wind to change (not sure if you have a real performance calculation software, but that’s how we could do it on the real airplane...Flysmart is quite good)
 
ryan78
Topic Author
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
I have flown an A320 from an 1830m
Runway. 2400km or so would be tight, but may be feasible with a reduced payload. It’s would probably be a flap 3 takeoff. Landing on these short runways can be challenging as well, but it’s doable if you don’t float. A ‘trick’ that is sometimes used if the performance is still insufficient after trying to reduce payload, fuel (reduced contingency fuel, possibly dispatching without and alternate if weather at destination permits...) etc. may be to calculate the minimum headwind component required to legally takeoff. If it’s only 2-3kts of wind that are missing, it may be worth taxiing to the holding point and wait for the wind to change (not sure if you have a real performance calculation software, but that’s how we could do it on the real airplane...Flysmart is quite good)


Awesome, thanks for the insight. I figured the A320 would be tight getting out but the A319 does have better performance so it's probably the better bet for that runway. My backup theory would be to make the short hop from Las Brujas (BWW) to Cayo Coco (CCC) aboud 40 odd NM away, and stop in for a quick refuel and takeoff from there. I'd imagine an A321 would even be able to manage the 40nm jump from BWW to CCC.
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2055
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:16 pm

We operate out of SNA - a 1738m runway - with 319/320 aircraft. We are prohibited from using 321 aircraft.

In both 319/320 aircraft, takeoff is TOGA flaps 3 packs on.

But we don’t fly 2400km. It’s only a short hop of 500-600km. Fuel load is around 10000lbs. So even with a payload of 182 pax we’re looking at a TOW of 142-145,000lbs. So below the 320 Max landing weight limit of 145,000lbs.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Flow2706
Posts: 296
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:56 pm

ryan78 wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
I have flown an A320 from an 1830m
Runway. 2400km or so would be tight, but may be feasible with a reduced payload. It’s would probably be a flap 3 takeoff. Landing on these short runways can be challenging as well, but it’s doable if you don’t float. A ‘trick’ that is sometimes used if the performance is still insufficient after trying to reduce payload, fuel (reduced contingency fuel, possibly dispatching without and alternate if weather at destination permits...) etc. may be to calculate the minimum headwind component required to legally takeoff. If it’s only 2-3kts of wind that are missing, it may be worth taxiing to the holding point and wait for the wind to change (not sure if you have a real performance calculation software, but that’s how we could do it on the real airplane...Flysmart is quite good)


Awesome, thanks for the insight. I figured the A320 would be tight getting out but the A319 does have better performance so it's probably the better bet for that runway. My backup theory would be to make the short hop from Las Brujas (BWW) to Cayo Coco (CCC) aboud 40 odd NM away, and stop in for a quick refuel and takeoff from there. I'd imagine an A321 would even be able to manage the 40nm jump from BWW to CCC.

The short stop in CCC may be a good idea. The longest flight that I did from that from that 1830m runway was around 1000km. The aircraft has a lot of performance when it is light. I once did a ferry flight to an other 1800m runway (the aircraft was scheduled to get some major maintenance done in Toulouse Francazal, I found it quite weird that the maintenance company was based their considering that Toulouse Blagnac is just a couple of kilometers away). With medium auto brake we managed to stop in less than half of the runway, it's quite amazing what you can do with a light aircraft.
 
N1120A
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:21 am

AA flies weight restricted A321s on LIH-LAX, so there's that.

United did SNA-IAD with an A319 at one point
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ryan78
Topic Author
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:11 pm

N1120A wrote:
AA flies weight restricted A321s on LIH-LAX, so there's that.

United did SNA-IAD with an A319 at one point


Any idea if the SNA-IAD route had seats blocked off? Thats a 3600+km trip. If the A319 is able to do that then surley it would be able to do a 2400km trip from a slightly longer runway. Even the SNA-ORD leg is longer that YYZ-BWW.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1783
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:57 pm

ryan78 wrote:
Hi all, sort of a shot in the dark here. Looking to confirm what I think is possible for some MSFS2020 flights. I'm looking to see if its possible for an A319 or A320 to operate a 2400-2600km sector departing from an 1803m long runway, at sea level, with no terrain in the vicinity and temps around 25-30 degrees Celcius. Both single class 144 and 180 pax config. The A319 has a published takeoff roll at MTOW of 1850m and the A320's is 2100m. I'm assuming both aircraft would be nowhere near MTOW for only a 24-2600km journey, they both have a range well over 6000km. So I'm assuming it is theoretically possible without blocking off seats, at least for the A319. A320 might be stretching it a bit in my eyes. I just wanted to ask if someone with some flight planning background/software can confirm my reasonings, looking to keep things as real as possible in the sim. Routing is BWW-YYZ & BWW-YUL.


I take it you've already tried this in FS2020 with the default A320NEO?. If trying to compare to real life ops, you're likely not taking into account rejected takeoff speed in relation to how much runway you have remaining, which may be a problem.
 
T54A
Posts: 337
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:47 am

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:34 pm

Our A319’s have a MTOW of 70t. Using your figures, you should be able to go at about 63t with no wind, 30deg and QNH 1013. That will be nearly full pax for such a short trip. I used FlySmart out of FAEL which is sea level and Rwy 24 is 1585m.
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
ryan78
Topic Author
Posts: 372
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:12 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
I take it you've already tried this in FS2020 with the default A320NEO?. If trying to compare to real life ops, you're likely not taking into account rejected takeoff speed in relation to how much runway you have remaining, which may be a problem.


That is precisley why I asked on here. The aircraft can make it out of the runway with no issues but I wanted to confirm if it would be legal from a real life standpoint once you factor in RTO calculations and such.

T54A wrote:
Our A319’s have a MTOW of 70t. Using your figures, you should be able to go at about 63t with no wind, 30deg and QNH 1013. That will be nearly full pax for such a short trip. I used FlySmart out of FAEL which is sea level and Rwy 24 is 1585m.


Sounds like it is do-able then with the A319. Thanks for the information!
 
T54A
Posts: 337
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:03 pm

ryan78 wrote:
phatfarmlines wrote:
I take it you've already tried this in FS2020 with the default A320NEO?. If trying to compare to real life ops, you're likely not taking into account rejected takeoff speed in relation to how much runway you have remaining, which may be a problem.


That is precisley why I asked on here. The aircraft can make it out of the runway with no issues but I wanted to confirm if it would be legal from a real life standpoint once you factor in RTO calculations and such.

T54A wrote:
Our A319’s have a MTOW of 70t. Using your figures, you should be able to go at about 63t with no wind, 30deg and QNH 1013. That will be nearly full pax for such a short trip. I used FlySmart out of FAEL which is sea level and Rwy 24 is 1585m.


Sounds like it is do-able then with the A319. Thanks for the information!


I would post snapshots of the FlySmart perf calculations for you, but I have absolutely no idea how to do it. Send me a DM and I can send it to you personally.
T6, Allouette 3, Oryx, King Air, B1900, B727, B744, A319, A342/3/6 A332/3 A359
 
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tb727
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:39 am

Woodreau wrote:
We operate out of SNA - a 1738m runway - with 319/320 aircraft. We are prohibited from using 321 aircraft.

In both 319/320 aircraft, takeoff is TOGA flaps 3 packs on.

But we don’t fly 2400km. It’s only a short hop of 500-600km. Fuel load is around 10000lbs. So even with a payload of 182 pax we’re looking at a TOW of 142-145,000lbs. So below the 320 Max landing weight limit of 145,000lbs.


With 5-9 pax when I was doing it last month, I could have gone pretty far :(
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2055
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:04 am

tb727 wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
We operate out of SNA - a 1738m runway - with 319/320 aircraft. We are prohibited from using 321 aircraft.

In both 319/320 aircraft, takeoff is TOGA flaps 3 packs on.

But we don’t fly 2400km. It’s only a short hop of 500-600km. Fuel load is around 10000lbs. So even with a payload of 182 pax we’re looking at a TOW of 142-145,000lbs. So below the 320 Max landing weight limit of 145,000lbs.


With 5-9 pax when I was doing it last month, I could have gone pretty far :(


I hit the pitch limit of 30 degrees flying v2+10 after thrust reduction to 3056ft and pegged the ivsi at 6000+FPM in the climb until accel alt.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
LucaDiMontanari
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:14 pm

I do remember back in like 2012/2013 Helvetic Airways flew with their single A319 from Berne BRN to Larnaca LCA (among other destinations) which is 2557km great circle. It was the furthest destination flown with the A319. The runway in Berne has a length of 1730m at a field elevation of 1673ft. And some nasty terrain/obstacle limitations. In summer, density altitude could reach 4500ft on a hot day. However their Bus was only fitted with 132 or 134 seats. But this might answer your question with "yes, somewhat borderline, but yes".
 
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tb727
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:09 pm

Woodreau wrote:
tb727 wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
We operate out of SNA - a 1738m runway - with 319/320 aircraft. We are prohibited from using 321 aircraft.

In both 319/320 aircraft, takeoff is TOGA flaps 3 packs on.

But we don’t fly 2400km. It’s only a short hop of 500-600km. Fuel load is around 10000lbs. So even with a payload of 182 pax we’re looking at a TOW of 142-145,000lbs. So below the 320 Max landing weight limit of 145,000lbs.


With 5-9 pax when I was doing it last month, I could have gone pretty far :(


I hit the pitch limit of 30 degrees flying v2+10 after thrust reduction to 3056ft and pegged the ivsi at 6000+FPM in the climb until accel alt.


Wow! Yeah, giddy-up! No one can complain about noise with that!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
AndrewJM70
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:06 am

Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed that the A320 in MSFS2020 does not reach full power on a TOGA setting since the 22nd December update? I am sure I am not imagining it but it seems more sluggish.
 
TC957
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:49 pm

easyJet the last couple of winters do SOU - GVA ski-season flights and SOU has a 1723mtr runway. Also 319/320ACJ's use Samedan and that has an 1800mtr runway at an elevation of over 1700 mtrs high.
 
N965UW
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Re: A319/A320 Ops from an 1803m Runway?

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:16 pm

AndrewJM70 wrote:
Slightly off topic but has anyone noticed that the A320 in MSFS2020 does not reach full power on a TOGA setting since the 22nd December update? I am sure I am not imagining it but it seems more sluggish.


FSX has the same problem. Must've carried over to FS2020. The "TOGA" switch seems to simulate a FLEX takeoff, while manually advancing the thrust levers fully forward produces maximum power. I once took off from CLT runway 5 in a Project Airbus A321, and using "TOGA" it barely got off the ground before running out of pavement.
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