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klm744
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Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:59 am

I recently got some shots back and they have what I believe is vignetting. They all have some slight darkness on all 4 corners. Its only on the corners and its not that noticable. I had read about vignetting and think this is it. My question is what causes it, so that I can avoid it in the future.

the shots were taken with a 70-300mm f4-5.6 lens @ 300mm and f5.6, shutter speed was 1/1250, I was using the lens hood that came with the lens, and the film was fuji superia 100.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
mikephotos
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 9:45 am

The large aperture was the cause and the long focal length added. Next time, try bumping the aperture to f8 or even f11 if you can. With a shutter speed of 1/1250, you should have plenty to spare before getting into trouble -- even at full 300.

Michael
 
tpk
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:49 am

I mentioned vignetting in my response to your post from a few days ago. It seems like we have had a lot of the same problems. I know it is discouraging when you have a shot that is otherwise perfect.

In any case, I followed the same advice that Michael gave you, set my camera on aperture priority f8 or 11 (light permitting), and haven't had a problem since then.
 
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BO__einG
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 12:15 pm

I have a question.

I get vignetting at times as well.
but unfortuneatly my Nikon camera is a little old and because of that When I adjust the Aperature to like F5.6/8/or F-11 at daylight.

The aperature causes my shutter speed to change>?
So somehow I cannot set my shutter to a fixed setting like at 500/1250 etc.. because my aperature depends on it.
Do you understand what Im trying to say?

Compared to Pentax 1980 kinds. You can adjust Both Aperature and Shutter separately taking out the hardships and vignetting..
What do you do in cases like mine where my camera does things like that?

Bo
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
klm744
Topic Author
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 12:34 pm

I think I understand what you are saying boeing. That when you change the apeture, you are forced to change the shutter speed as well. That happens with every camera, its just that with the new ones you can put it on apeture or shutter priority where you either set the shutter speed or in this case the apeture and the camera picks the shutter speed. If you are using 100 speed film on a sunny day, there should be no reason that you should not be able to set your camera to f8 and not be able to set or have the camera pick for you a fast shutter speed. What kind of Nikon is it, I have a nikon from the '70s and I am able to make these settings on it, so it should be possible. I hope I have helped.
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 12:57 pm

Bo,

Not 100% sure what you're asking, so appologies if you already know all of this stuff.

Any scene/view, given the prevailing lighting conditions, will have an exposure value (EV). Simplistically, it is a numeric value that expresses the amount of light in the scene. The EV is what the camera's meter measures. Based on the EV detected by the camera meter, the camera's systems then allocate a shutter speed and or aperture that will ensure that the scene will be correctly exposed. There are an infinite number of shutter speed and aperture combinations for any EV, but for a given EV as the shutter speed is increased then the aperture has to open up (get wider). So a given EV may be correctly exposed at [for example] 1/125 at F11.0, 1/250 at F8.0, or 1/500 at F5.6, or 1/1000 at F4.0. The list goes on. What this means is that you cannot choose both shutter speed and aperture - you can choose only one, and the other is defined by the EV that the meter on the camera has determined (the only other factor involved is filn speed, which I shall leave out of this discussion).

Now, most camera exposure modes can be broadly divided into two main categories: aperture priority (where you set the aperture and the camera sets the corresponding shutter speed) and shutter priority (where you set the shutter speed and the camera selects the aperture). We'll leave aside fully programmed modes where both are picked by the camera for now, as they rarely offer sufficient control over shutter speed and aperture for this purpose.

If you are worried about vignetting at wide apertures, and if your camera has an aperture priority metering mode, you should set an aperture at which vignetting does not occur and allow the camera to work out the shutter speed is needed. In letting the camera choose the shutter speed however, you do need to keep an eye on what shutter speed the camera is choosing, to ensure that it doesn't get too low for the length of lens you're using.

If on the other hand your camera only has shutter priority mode (i.e. it allows you to set the shutter speed and it chooses the aperture), you are going to have to let the camera choose an aperture based on the shutter speed that is set. This is where, to a degree, you loose control over what aperture is set. With such cameras, it is nowhere near as easy to guarantee that the camera will not set a wide aperture, as the aperture for any set shutter speed will vary according to the EV of the scene. All you can do is select a shutter speed that allows the camera to set a stopped down aperture, and then make sure things don't change - keep an eye on what aperture the camera is selecting as you take each shot, and if it gets too wide (i.e. low numbers), reduce the shutter speed before you take the photograph.

HTH,

Andy
 
Guest

RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 4:47 pm


Caution!!!

I have owned and used both the Nikon 75-300mm zoom (when I had a Nikon F60...yuk!) and the Canon 75-300mm zoom.

Both suffered vignetting when used at 300mm (or close to) and F5.6.

This is because both lenses are 'optimistically' rated at F5.6...when perhaps they should be F6.7.

They are both what I'll call budget lenses and you need to be aware of this when buying/using these lenses.

You only get's what you pay's for...

Regards,
Dean

PS - and the lens hoods they supply only make it worse...and shooting with the sun to your back (which we would all do to get the subject lit properly) you shouldn't really need the lens hood. Lose the hood and run at F8 and you should be ok.
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:12 pm

Thanks for the advice Dean - from a Canon 75-300 user currently scheming on how to afford, or more accurately justify the cost of, a Canon 100-400L IS!!  Big grin

Andy

(PS: Sadly they don't seem to be cheaper in Singapore!  Sad)
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:35 pm

Taken with a Canon 75-300 at 300mm... Not too bad, but there's some darkening towards the corners noticable in the sky. Sharpness is not usually an issue, let down slightly on this occasion by heat haze rather than optical performance:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Andy Martin


Mind you, the 75-300 has one advantage - you don't get any "vignetting" from poking it through wire fences, because the front element is quite small!  Smile Actually, the newer Canon 75-300 (the more recent model) got quite a good write up in the Photo press when it came out - not quite as good as the 100-300, and certainly not as good as the pro optics, but certainly better than most 3rd party lenses and good value for money.

I'm happy for the moment, though my scheming is rapidly resolving into something that involves heavy use of a credit card (see above)!!!  Confused

Andy
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:45 pm

PS: The optimistic rating is merely a cost saving measure on the part of camera makers - the maximum aperture the lens is optimistically or realistically rated at makes no difference in terms of vignetting.

All modern camera metering systems work not on the setting of the aperture, but on what light they measure "through the lens" - TTL metering. These days, all camera meters meter at maximum aperture, so if the camera thought it was metering at F5.6 but was actually metering at [say] F6.7, it would result in less light getting to the meter than expected, and that causing the photos to be slightly overexposed.

If the camera tries to set F5.6 and the lens only manages to open up to [say] F6.7, then the whole picture would come out slightly underexposed, rather than the corners being dark - the corners being dark is truely down to optical design, or lack of it.

Andy
 
klm744
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RE: Vignetting?

Wed Jun 27, 2001 10:28 pm

Thanks for all of the responses everyone.  Big grin
 
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BO__einG
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RE: Vignetting?

Thu Jun 28, 2001 2:18 am

Thanks alot Any for your help.

I will try at 5.6 above and see how things go. I dont usually get vignetting that much. but it does happen.

Bo
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
rindt
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RE: Vignetting?

Thu Jun 28, 2001 3:52 am

Cheap lense+widest aperture+longest focal length=vignetting.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Rob Rindt



Not only that, but the edges are never sharp... they rarely are with any form of lower-end gear... (when compared to F2.8 glass).

I went from the cheapest of the cheapest, to the most expensive, but it is a decision I wish I could've made sooner... it got to the point where I had to have my fingers crossed, hoping the slides turned out... now, I'm the exact opposite... almost to the point where I take a good shot for granted, because I expect it.

Regards,
Rob
What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
tpk
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RE: Vignetting?

Thu Jun 28, 2001 11:46 am

Rob,

What lens do you recommend and about how much does it cost?

Tim
 
rindt
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RE: Vignetting?

Thu Jun 28, 2001 3:45 pm

Tpk,

As a Nikon user, I would most definitely recommend buying the 80-200F2.8ED... a good $2500. If you're a Canon user, then it's gotta be the 70-200F2.8(USM?), and it's also in the neighbourhood of $2500... while the Nikkor lense lacks that extra 10mm on the low-end (70-80 gap), it's great to have the f-stop ring in the bottom... unlike the Canon model, where you have to do everything through the camera, which takes extra time... sometimes time you don't have to spare...
The amazing part about either of these lenses is they are incredibly fast and sharp... I have no problems using KR64 on an overcast day in winter (although I have only done this on occasion to test the lense, I normally only shoot in perfect light). The great thing is, once you've saved up for one of these puppies, you won't ever need to buy a replacement lense... because, there simply isn't anything better. You'll hear people talk about the 80-400VR from Nikon or the 100-400I from Canon, but these are lenses that are in their own category, and they only work if you have the proper camera body to use them... I'm not 100% certain which ones work for the Canon, but I do know that even my F90x won't work with the VR technology... but the F100, F5, and N80 will...

I know it's all very pricey... everything good in photography comes with a price $$$. So, here's how I looked at it... I could've continued using my old lense, getting vignetting and "softness" on half the shots, which result in being tossed in the garbage, or halting my photography for a few months, fronting the dough for the top-knotch lense, and never looking back... and I don't regret it, at all. I'm 18 years old, so this goes to show you how serious I am... either you're knee-deep in it (like I am), or it's just a fun hobby. So, when you wonder why the better photographers(I should say more "serious", because there are a lot of great photographers) get stunning results, the truth is plainly in what equipment they use... I don't want to name names, but I can you tell thus far, the better photogs (in my opinion anyway) are all using F2.8 glass, be it Nikon or Canon. That's not to say people using 70-300 F4-5.6 shoot crap, but technically speaking, the quality of the slide itself is lacking with the lower-end gear... and those users shouldn't be afraid to admit it... I was once in the same boat, so I know what it's like!

Enough ranting and raving on my part for today... after all, you wanted to know my opinion and recommendation, so, I gave it! F2.8 is where it's at  Laugh out loud

Regards,
Rob
What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
cfalk
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RE: Vignetting?

Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:18 pm

The Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 L lens may list at over $2000, but is easily findable at $1200 or so. I expect the same is true for the Nikon version.

http://www.epinions.com/elec-Photo-Lenses-All-Canon_EF_70-200mm_f_2_8L_USM

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
da Fwog
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RE: Vignetting?

Fri Jun 29, 2001 10:59 pm

I would also add that you might consider Sigma's version - the 70-200 F2.8EX. You may find this slightly cheaper than the manufacturers' own lenses, and it offers a couple of advantages.

Firstly, for Nikon users, if you want the 80-200F2.8, you have to choose whether to pay $800 extra for the AF-S (silent wave) version - well the Sigma offers you this for less than the price of the non-AFS Nikkor. (although you'll need an F65,F80,F100 or F5 to take advantage of this).

Secondly, you can buy a matched 1.4x or 2x converter from Sigma that will convert this into a 98-280 F4 or 140-400 F5.6 for a lot less than the equivalent Canon or Nikon unit. And the quality doesn't suffer the way you might expect. Using it at 400mm with the converter, it still ****es all over my old 70-300 from a great height.

Finally, the quality of the lens is superb - comparable to both the Nikon & Canon lenses (if you want to see some comparitive tests of lens quality, try the site www.photodo.com). If you want some examples, the majority of my (non-digital) images on Airliners.net taken since May 2000 were taken with this lens. Just do a search on "fwog" in the comments field to find some.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Vignetting?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:19 pm

Yup. I got vignetting too...real bad....on my pint and shoot. I just didn't know there was a name for the corners looking dark!

anyway, you guys are all talking about some expensive glass....those Canon 2.8 & IS models. It has to be possible to take a decent picture with a cheaper camera.

Rob, that pic of the SA 747.....very grainy picture. Was that because of the cheap lens? what kind of lens was it?
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Fredrik Hjort
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RE: Vignetting?

Sat Jun 30, 2001 7:22 pm

I often get this, but don't see it as a big problem. Most pictures turn out well, and the vignetting itself isn't so horrible for the composition as a whole. Sometimes though it gets real dark at the edges - as the Falcon 50 shot:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Fredrik Hjort




Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Fredrik Hjort



/Fredrik
 
rindt
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RE: Vignetting?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 2:02 pm

That SQ 744 shot was scanned by someone else, and saved and saved again, therefore the JPEG compression takes its toll... however, the dark corners are there regardless of the scan quality. But yes, it was taken with my $450CDN lense...an insult to aviation photography as far I'm concerned. Took me 3 years to upgrade, but now I'm glad that I did... I know some fellow photographers that have been shooting for 15+ years and are still using their "cheap" equipment, and they have the ability to complain that their shots aren't sharp. Go figure.

F2.8 "sharp" and F4/5.6 "sharp" are two completely different ball-fields. The difference can only be clearly seen through a loup... it's not like those stupid Pepsi/Coke "taste-tests", where both are virtually the same.

Regards,
Rob


What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
cfalk
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RE: Vignetting?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 3:48 pm

Coke and Pepsi the same?!? How dare you!

Seriously, you're absolutely right about the difference between a 2.8 and more affordable fare. When I first got slides back from my 2.8 lens, my first thought was that I had to reshoot everything I had done so far.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Vignetting?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 3:51 pm

I just paid $95 CDNfor a lens (75-150mm f4) and the results are outstanding conisdering what i paid. At max zoom photos are tack-sharp and no vignetting is visible even at f4 or f5.6. So I suppose the $450 being an insult only applies to new lenses, used equipment is my mind is what you should use if you cant afford paying 2k for a new lens.
 
cfalk
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RE: Vignetting?

Sun Jul 01, 2001 5:20 pm

With a relatively short differential on a 75-150 zoom, I would expect little vignetting. The worst are the hyperzooms, like the Tamron and Sigma 28-300mm
lenses

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
klm744
Topic Author
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RE: Vignetting?

Mon Jul 02, 2001 2:10 am

I've been reading the posts concerning the superiority of f2.8 lenses vs. f4-5.6 lenses. Most people would agree that an f2.8 lens offers a much sharper picture, but what I don't understand is does an f2.8 lens offer a sharper picture only at a range from f2.8-f4, in other words only in the faster range than a f4-f5.6 lens can go? How will the two lenses compare if they are both set a f8 or both set at f5.6 for example? Or are f2.8 lenses sharper because of a higher build and glass quality, they are much more expensive afterall.
 
tpk
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70/80 - 200 F/2.8 Lenses

Mon Jul 02, 2001 3:56 am

Rob and Charles -

Thank you for your advice about the 70/80 - 200 f/2.8 lens. I am seriously contemplating getting one, but first I have another question.

Do either of you or anyone else who uses a similar lens find that the 200mm length is enough to capture most of the aircraft you are trying to photograph? A while ago, I used to use a cheap Sigma lens that zoomed to (I think) 230mm and I remember feeling that a lot of the planes I wanted to shoot were just a little out of reach. Now I am using a still relatively cheap Canon EF 75 - 300mm f/4-5.6 III lens and I don't have the distance problems anymore.

I went to the B&H website and priced what I think might be the 300mm version of the lens you are recommending and it is about USD4,500 which would be a huge purchase for me. Since I don't have ramp access anywhere and am often shooting from distant locations, should I consider saving up for something like this or do you think the thousands of dollars aren't worth the extra 100mm?

I'd appreciate your input.

Tim
 
rindt
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Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

RE: Vignetting?

Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:03 am

KLM744,

While F2.8 is largest opening of the lense, it does not mean it's used at that opening! I only shoot at F8/11, and under few circumstances F5.6. I'll try to answer your question though : There are two openings in a lense, one that we control ourselves (F-stops), and the other is permanently set. My 28-300mm was F4-6.3, which means the lowest aperture I could set was at F4 (at 28mm, and at 300mm F6.3), but even at F8, the light is going through the permanent F4 (or up to 6.3 depending on focal length) setting. Now on F2.8 lense, your "permanent" aperture is F2.8, regardless of what F-stop setting you set. Confused? Read on... here's why they call it "fast-glass". On my 28-300mm, at 200mm it would be roughly F5.6. On the 80-200mm, at 200mm I'm still shooting at F2.8, as the "permanent" aperture. So, say we're shooting at F8 on both lenses. On the 28-300mm, I'd get say 1/250th at F8. On the 80-200mm, it's exactly two stops faster 1/1000th at F8, or 1/500th F11, or even F16 at 1/250th! So, now you can see just how much faster the "glass" is... we have many more options, intead of just F8. When you buy an F2.8, you're buying top-quality optics, so it's fairly heavy (compared to slower F4 or F5.6 lenses). As far as sharpness, the sweet spot on all or most lense anyway is F8 (in some cases F11), and as I said, the glass and quality altogether is much better on more expensive lenses, I guess that goes without saying though.

While writing this up, I may have discovered why vignetting occurs, correct me if I'm wrong. On an F2.8 lense, you should never get vignetting, because the "permanent" F-stop can never be larger than the variable F-stop. Where as on the 28-300mm F4-6.3 (for example) at 300mm, the "permanent" F-stop is F6.3, but the lense can be open to F4. The variable F-stop is closest to the body, where as the "permanent" or constant F-stop is further out. So, imagine making a circle over your eye with your fingers, and another one further away, but much smaller, this is exactly what's happening to the lense... and the result is vignetting! To avoid the problem, you'd have to shoot at F6.3 or smaller (F8, 11, 16) . So, that's why shooting on an F5.6 lense at 200mm, you can't open the lense anymore than F5.6, or you'd get vignetting, but because the lense is slow, you basically have little choice. I hope I explained this properly... it makes sense to me, but I may not have explained it well.

Regards,
Rob


What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
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Rob

Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:42 am

>So, say we're shooting at F8 on both lenses. On the 28-300mm, I'd get say 1/250th at F8. On the 80-200mm, it's exactly two stops faster 1/1000th at F8, or 1/500th F11, or even F16 at 1/250th! So, now you can see just how much faster the "glass" is<

Incorrect.
If you get 1/250th at F8 you will get that on both lenses.
/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
rindt
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

TPK

Mon Jul 02, 2001 4:50 am

The 300mm lense you refered to is just that, a 300mmF2.8 straight lense. Yeah, it's a hefty piece of glass, but that lense is well over a foot long, and weighs a ton. If you only shoot at 300mm, then yes, this is the best lense out there. However, the 80-200mmF2.8 with a 1.4x convertor (makes it 98-280mmF4) gets that little boost when you need it, and it's still tack sharp.

Regards,
Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
da Fwog
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RE: Vignetting?

Mon Jul 02, 2001 7:33 am

In reply to several different points - the F2.8 lenses are sharp across the range, but not uniformly so. The edge definition of ANY lens is the poorest part of the image - and more so if the lens is wide open. So for best results, I keep the F2.8 stopped down to F8 as far as is possible. Almost all lenses (regardless of their speed or price) will perform at their best at around F8 (or sometimes F11). Of course, if you buy the F2.8, wou always have the option of opening it up if the light conditions are poorer...

I found that going from a 70-300 F5.6 to a 70-200F2.8 WAS a little limiting in terms of focal length - there were times when I really did miss the extra 100mm (but no way did I want to go back to the horrible old 70-300 - the quality difference really WAS astounding). What I ended up doing was buying the matched 2x converter for my F2.8 lens. This makes it into a 140-400 F5.6 - and the quality doesn't suffer as much as you might think. Put it this way - for the odd occasions you need the extra length, it's perfectly acceptable, and still significantly better than the old 70-300 lens was. You could buy a 1.4x converter instead, which will give you a 98-280mm F4, which you might prefer.
 
rindt
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

Jan

Mon Jul 02, 2001 10:39 am

Hi

Having used both a crappy lense and the 80-200mm F2.8, I can most certainly tell you there was at LEAST a 2-stop increase by using the fast lense... obviously! So, I'll have to beg to differ on that one... maybe I confused you somehow, but F8 1/250th on an F5.6 rated lense will most certainly be F16 1/250th on an F2.8 rated lense, I'm positive.


Regards,
Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
ericp
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 9:02 pm

RE: Vignetting?

Mon Jul 02, 2001 1:21 pm

Guys,

You don't have to use the "best" lenses ... one of the best aviation photographers I know uses a manual setup with a 70-210mm, not f/2.8. And I've seen a lot of his images published in magazines.

The main thing is to (1) stick to your budget (2) know the limitations of your gear (yes, even the "perfect" f/2.8 will have tradeoffs  Smile/happy/getting dizzy and (3) enjoy the hobby.

I have a 70-300mm that vignetted quite badly, and a lot of shots came out "soft" ... it's only when I learned not to shoot at max everything (aperture, focal length, shutter speed) that I got great results. And even though I have an 80-200mm f/2.8 right now, I still use the 70-300mm occasionally ... easier to poke a 62mm diameter barrel through a fence than a 77mm  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Eric

 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

Rob

Mon Jul 02, 2001 3:10 pm

Rob,
just to make sure we are talking about the same thing here;

Let's say we have an evenly lit concrete wall we wanna shoot. Metering the light we get 1/250th at F8 using a lens such as a 200mm F5,6.
Are you telling me that if you wanna shoot with a 200mm F2,8 you should shoot at 1/250th at F16 ?!?!

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
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BO__einG
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RE: Super High Shutters.

Tue Jul 03, 2001 2:07 am

Forgive me for getting a little bit off about lens.

I'll let you answer Jans question first.


But My interest is on fast shutters,
You mentioned Fast Glass and Ive read it.
Someitmes Id try and shoot at 1/1000th or above on days where there is sunset or just typical day to see how sharp it becomes.. I fry the but off my film.
How do I overcome it so When I shoot at those high areas I can get good shots such as sunset shots that are on the database>?? I use an aperature priority mode. and yeah. a Tamrom 60-300 at F-3.8-5.4..
So I fint it extremely hard to get away with shots ranging at 1/1000 at lower light at dusk cuz even thou my aperature may go full but the shutter it chooses is too low.!

Bo
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos