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Riley
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And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:10 am

Guys, I'm a fanatic about dead-on-balls level in my images, but got this one booted back to me for badlevel/badcameraangle:

https://airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=dl767041404a.jpg

If you lay a grid over the image you will notice the freeway sign support in the background is perfectly level. I want to reup but have no clue what the screeners are looking for...

Which way and how much correction is required?

RyanU

 
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JeffM
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:13 am

Based on the pole under the port mlg, 0.57 degrees ccw.


Jeff
 
futterman
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:17 am

I wouldn't reccomend leveling against things like distant highway signs. Things at an angle like that, as the sign obviously isn't parallel to you, do no seem to be perfectly level. Look at the long side of a building, or the side of the runway in your shot.

It may be accurate, but then again...

I say rotate it a smidge CCW.
What the FUTT?
 
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JeffM
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 10:23 am

I was trying to be a little more specific then a "smidge".
 
futterman
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:07 am

Well, going to the hundredth place sure would do the trick!
What the FUTT?
 
sleekjet
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:18 am

This oughta be Exhibit #1 for screeners going too far. It's a fabulous shot. Shouldn't have to have a microscope to ascertain something as tricky as leveling.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
Dehowie
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 11:35 am

Mmmmmm.
Those poles look pretty vertical compared to the edge of the photo and that is good enough for me.
Maybe a toch of CCW but hardly worth rejecting a photo of that quality.
But hey what do i know i have only ben taking aeroplane photo's for 22 years and looking at them for 34.
Hve fun in PS
Dazz
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
aa61hvy
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 12:01 pm

Umphrey- I was just bragging on you to Josh Smith, nice shot bud.

Where did you take that shot from? The American Eagle spot?
Go big or go home
 
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JeffM
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:11 pm

Much easier if it was just correct before uploading don't you think?
 
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Bruce
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:14 pm

I also agree. To my eye it is not level and needs a slight rotate CCW.

Is "slight" more than "smidge" ??? LOL

At any rate, Futt is right - its best not to use highway signs in the background to judge level. I would go by the Poles and/or the runway edge which slopes down.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
andrewuber
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:14 pm

OK I said I'd never do this, but this is driving me absolutely insane. This whole leveling thing is SOOO obvious. If your photo is crooked, fix it, then upload it. To have a shot like yours rejected for badlevel is absurd. You're right - the poles are very close to vertical. But it's hardly crooked enough to be rejected.

What really aggrevates me is to see a nice shot like yours rejected, and then see something like this shot here- it was accepted last week. True, yours may be .57 degrees off, but this one's a good 2 - 3 degrees off.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © William Anthony - AIRFRAMES


The rules should apply to everyone. Not just those with lots of photos in the d/b. Shouldn't everyone be screened the same? Shouldn't someone with 222 accepted photos know that leveling is important? How hard would it have been for him to fix this?

I'm not bashing anyone here, but look at these photos. That ATI pic is way off, nothing is level in that shot. Definately myaviation.net material.

Makes me wonder.  Insane
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
Guest

RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:25 pm

Ryan, Maybe the screner was talking about
the pilot's bad angle on landing.  Big grin I think he's more screwed up than your shot is.
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 4:48 pm

Andrew -

31L at BFI slopes up to the South. ("The Bump.") Ask anyone who shoots BFI regularly. Or anyone that's taken of or landed there. See the light post under the nose of the aircraft? It's the only thing close to true vertical in the photograph and I used the "ruler/arbitrary rotation" trick Jan Mogren introduced in the forums some time back.

In the past, I have had many, MANY shots rejected for not being level, which has forced me to be anal about finding vertical plumb lines while editing for fear of having the shot rejected. I upload shots that fulfill the criteria of this site. Period.

Also, for your information "Freight-Dawg," I don't appreciate you coming into the forum and questioning my abilities and judgement in the fashion and tone that you have. If you have a problem with a shot, have the common decency and respect to e-mail me (where I could have explained to you WHY the shot looks as it does) or contact the screeners before parading your critique here. Not only is it bad form, childish and disrespectful, it is in clear violation of the forum rules.

Makes me wonder why I bother to continue to visit these forums.

william


[Edited 2004-04-20 09:49:50]
 
andrewuber
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:35 pm

OK instead of defending myself and why I believe that photo is not level, I will instead offer my apology for naming a fellow airliners.net photographer to pick on. That was not the best idea I'd had all day. For that, I do apologize. Next time I'll keep my point specific, but my examples will be anonymous.

William - I looked through your other stuff, you do have some great shots man. Sorry if I offended you.

Drew
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:09 am

Drew -

There's a difference between being offended and being insulted. I don't offend easily.

At first glance, yes, the shot might look way crooked. But if you know a.) BFI is itself crooked, and b.) when in question, the screeners will look for verticals to justify an add or reject, then this shot wouldn't look so bad after all.

This reminds me of a thread Royal started about this very topic back in July 2002:

https://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/57603

I won't comment on the "MyAviation.net material" jab and simply say, "apology accepted."  Big grin


william


[Edited 2004-04-20 18:22:05]
 
Bronko
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 6:36 am

Bill, would you mind posting that shot you took from the control tower, where you thought you me? It shows just how unbelievably undulating the grounds of BFI is.

The vast majority of my shots are from BFI, and I just make them "look level".
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:44 am

Bill, would you mind posting that shot you took from the control tower, where you thought you me? It shows just how unbelievably undulating the grounds of BFI is.

This is a long shot of taxiway bravo, where the Robinsons do their auto-rotation excercises. You can see it's a bit of a rollercoaster ride on your way to 31L.



And here's the shot you were talking about Dave. It shows the southernmost end of both Taxiway Bravo and RWY 31L.



My vantage point on the ATI Stretch-8 shot was from roughly where the 737 is. The large "rise" just behind the 737 continues East across the field perpendicular to 13R/31L.

So needless to say, after looking at the above shots, using horizon lines to level a photograph is nearly futile. Which is why I set mine to any available vertical in the shot.

william
 
andrewuber
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 11:06 am

William-

You're right - the field does slope a bit. I'm a pilot, and have landed at BFI numerous times. I lived in the area until 2001, and spent a great deal of time at the Museum of Flight.

As for the photo - I was looking at the hangars in your shot, and I hope you'll agree, they do seem a BIT off, a degree or two CW to be exact. I put it in photoshop and rotated it .8 degrees left, and it looks a bit more accurate to me. But either way - they accepted it - so good job. And your other shots are REALLY good.  Big thumbs up

What kind of equipment do you use?
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:46 pm

As for the photo - I was looking at the hangars in your shot, and I hope you'll agree, they do seem a BIT off, a degree or two CW to be exact. I put it in photoshop and rotated it .8 degrees left, and it looks a bit more accurate to me.

It's negligable. Like Dave (Bronko), I prefer to level by eye for the best aesthetics. What looks most natural is the best, IMHO, but here I've been conditioned to pick a vertical and stick to it. I uploaded this shot a while back and had it rejected for badcamerangle:



(Open in new window for full size.)

This was one of those rejections where I rolled my eyes and thought "Jeez... c'mon... are we taking pictures or pouring concrete? ..." Yes it is not PERFECTLY level, but I think the ascending blurred background adds to the movement of the shot.

I never bothered to reupload, but after it, I started setting the verticals in my shots to visible fenceposts and buildings. To my eye it doesn't always look the best, but it's what A.net wants.

I used a Canon AE-1 until I got my D60 just over a year ago and rent a variety of lenses depending on the situation.

And your other shots are REALLY good.

Thanks man.  Big thumbs up

william
 
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JeffM
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:45 pm

Poles can be deceiving in their own right though. They may not be the best guide.



Poles on the left are leaning left, the ones on the right appear to lean to the right to me. The plane is not centered either, I could have centered it, but for some reason I liked the cluster of poles on the left. The bright red car works for me as well. It's in the queue minus the frame, correct enough in my mind, but may not make it. It will make a superb print though.

Jeff
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 2:39 am

Yeah Jeff, poles can be deceiving. But if it's what the screeners are using to judge the level of a photo, so be it. Not my rules.

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.

Level it to eye so the shot looks natural, even though it's not mathematically level and BAM! Rejected.

Pull out the slide-rule and protractor to rotate in Photoshop like I did with the ATI shot above and BAM! Hit in the forums by other photographers.



 
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JeffM
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:29 am

I hear you William,
Maybe camera makers could build some kind of electronic level sensor into the camera, and then the number of degrees off level would show in the exif data? Just kidding...

Jeff
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:34 am

Being level is the least of the problems with this photo. I am sorry, call it bad form, call it whatever. This photo is poor quality.

Exitrow, you do have many great photos. This photo however, needs some work. The screeners need to be a bit more consistant. Everyday I see photos rejected (not mine, I dont upload everyday) that look much better than this one, and I think to myself, HOW?!





View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © William Anthony - AIRFRAMES



 
EGGD
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:50 am

For Ryans shot I would've guessed at about 0.3 degree's counterclockwise to get it looking totally natural. However the fuselage looks a little soft and overexposed, so it might get knocked back anyway.
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:13 am

What's wrong with my photo Chad? How is it "poor quality"? If it needs some "work," please advise me on what YOU would do in your expert 300D opinion.

For everyone's information, and the LAST time I defend this shot for not being "level," have a look at this. (Be sure to open the image in new window for the full size version.):




The shot is indeed level by A.net standards. Period. I can't believe I have to do this kind of shit but what the hell.

The peanut gallery here is growing louder and louder and I find that discouraging.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:31 am

This may be a stupid question so pardon me if it is, but when the screeners are screening, do they use the good old Mark I eyeball to judge leveling or do they use some tool to help them out in a more precise fashion?

Thanks,
Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:56 am

if this is the last time you defend your image, Ill rest my case.  Big grin
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:15 am

No Chad... my comment was referring to the "level" issue.

But please, in your infinite knowlege and experience, tell me how you would have shot or edited the image differently.

I'm curious...
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:19 am

Give me the original and Ill mess with it, boss. If I cannot do anything with it, then obviously you did your best with what came out of the camera.
 
ExitRow
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:26 am

No... ARTICULATE it to me Chad.

Describe to me like an intelligent adult how you would have shot and or edited it differently to raise it up to your high standards.

If I cannot do anything with it, then obviously you did your best with what came out of the camera.

My god you're arrogant. Someone just IM'd me and described you as a "Legend in his own mind." At first I thought that was a bit harsh, but you've proven otherwise.

Put up or shut up "boss."

 
maiznblu_757
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:36 am

I am not going to get into it with you. Bottom line is, I have seen much better get rejected.

Someone IM'd me a few days ago about this photo. I didnt say anything until it was brought up.

Arrogant? LMAO. Ok fella. It sounds like its oposite to me.

In case you didnt see it, I said you have many great photos. This is just one photo here. You are trying to defend it like its up there with your best photos. Basically saying " How dare you, ALL MY SHOTS are great".

I simply stated the screeners need to be more consistant. Thats all.

Keep shooting guy, you have talent. You need to accept that maybe this is a borderline photo that was accepted based on your others in the database (numbers, quality etc).



[Edited 2004-04-22 04:41:23]
 
Bronko
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:59 am

"I am not going to get into it with you."

Chad, it's too late. You called his shot crap, and then don't want to defend yourself?

If you have a problem with a photo, fine. Email the photographer, and discuss the issue. Don't call him out in this forum, that is really lame.

You seem to think you are above the screeners, why?
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:59 am

No I dont have anything against the screeners, I just said there needs to be some consistancy in the rejections, thats all.

To set the record straight, I have nothing against you personally Exitrow. I apologize if it sounds like I am attacking you, I am not.



[Edited 2004-04-22 05:03:13]
 
Bronko
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RE: And Which Way Shall It Be?

Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:54 pm

Chad, after you write a reply in a thread, you should take a breath, and re-read your post. You seem to be misunderstood a lot on this forum.

Just some friendly advice.
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