Agency that runs NYC subways wants to ban picture taking. Mayor Bloomberg says "GET REAL".

An interesting development that we should definately follow. Because the same arguments they're using for subways...........well, you KNOW.  


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-06-02-subway-photo-ban_x.htm

I find it all very puzzling. Not least because the measures that are both proposed at the subway system and already in place at some airports (essentially the harassment of photographers) would have had absolutely zero effect on any previous atrocities committed by terrorists. Precisely what risk is being neutralised here?

When Aum Shinrikyo attacked the Tokyo subway with sarin, they didn't take pictures. They just walked in and did it.

Time and again the best measure has been proven to be deep intelligence; i.e. prior-warning of a cell's intentions. By the time the terrorist has got into the subway, or boarded the plane, it's too late.

Here is the Statement on Proposed Rules of Conduct for New York City Subway and Bus Riders from the Straphangers Campaign website
http://www.straphangers.org/photoban.htm

Thursday, May 20, 2004

Today, MTA New York City Transit proposed the first major changes to its Rules of Conduct for subway and bus riders in about a decade.

The NYPIRG Straphangers Campaign is sympathetic with the goal of making the subways safer and we support most of the proposed rule changes. But we have several concerns, which we plan to raise during the 45-day state-mandated public comment period for these proposals.

We object to the proposed rule that would completely ban taking photographs, film or video in the subways and on buses with limited exceptions. We respect the need for security in the transit system, but believe that there are important values in having photographers document life and conditions on the subways and buses.

The Campaign notes that in this year of the subway centennial, the MTA itself is sponsoring an exhibition of photographic images "offering a peek into the lives of New Yorkers throughout the decades, from quiet moments reading on a crowded train to grandstanding youths on an elevated platform." Photographers in the MTA-sponsored exhibition include Bruce Davidson and Henri Cartier-Bresson. (See MTA News Release at http://www.mta.info/mta/news/currentyear/040405.htm.)

The rule provides two exceptions that raise serious First Amendment issues of favoring one kind of expression over another. The rule would permit photographs by "members of the press holding valid press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department" or "others duly authorized in writing to" take photos, films and video. No standards are detailed in the proposed rules for issuing such authorizations

Another rule would prohibit any person from "performing an act" with "may interfere with or may tend to interfere with the provision of transit service or obstructs or may tend to obstruct the flow of traffic on facilities …." The Campaign is concerned that the "may tend to" language is vague and overbroad and might criminalize regular rider behavior, such as stopping for a moment in front of a turnstile to take out your MetroCard.

The Campaign supported a rule that would clearly prohibit "using the end doors of a subway car to pass from one subway car to another unless directed to do so by" a transit employee or police officer. But the Campaign urged that the rule be clarified to permit such passage in an emergency situation.

New York City Transit has said that the complete text of the rules will be posted at www.mta.info.

For More Information, Contact: Gene Russianoff (212) 349-6460

A headline yesterday read that a man with links to al-Qaeda was detained and revealed plans for an elaborate attack. They intended to rent apartments in high-rise complexs that use natural gas. They would seal off the apartment, and detonate explosives. The rest, well, hopefully that won't become history.

It just goes to show how little, if any of an effect banning photographs of trains, planes, and automobiles will have on hidering terrorist attacks. This plan is jut STUPID. Sure, it's practical. But not necessary.

Besides, there's not much the PANYNJ can do to screw this up for us any more than they already have--other than prohibiting the LGA CTB, which is highly unlikely.


I'll be looking to forward to seeing what, if anything, this amounts to.


Brian

I'm actually employed by the Straphangers Campaign to do certain kinds fo work for them, and I applaud their speaking out against this ban.

The greatest city in the world, among the biggest in terms of tourism, and one of the city's biggest parts of its personality is the damn subway. How stupid.

I don't want to sound rude but it looks like the American authorities are far to paranoid. I thought it was bad over here (mainly at LHR) but from the stories I'm getting from you guys over the otherside of the pond proves me wrong.

What on earth is banning photos on the subway going to achieve. I think the US government are just doing it to make people think "ooh like the government are trying to make everywhere safer" when in the end they're just making the environment more hostile.

Mike

"I think the US government are just doing it to make people think "ooh like the government are trying to make everywhere safer"

Uhh, sorry there chief.... it is not the U.S. Government that is wanting to do that....If you read the article, it is the contracting agency... BIG difference.

And the idea of someone using photographs made of the trains, equipment, rails, power supplies, security devices, etc. in the design of some sort of device that would go un-noticed, is not that far fetched, probably more then likely. How else would you do it? From memory? They could take measurements, get paint color, styles and on and on from a photograph to use in the design of what ever they were going to build.

I don't agree with banning the use of cameras down there, but I am sure they didn't think up such a controversial, and unpopular idea just for the hell of it.

So a terrorist who needs a photo of a train for their "work" would walk down to the subway platform, see the sign that says "NO PHOTOS ALLOWED" and just say to himself....oh darn, guess I better not do it. Yeah, right. The only person(s) that are affected by a no-photography ban are non-terrorist, mainly the tourist who bring huge amounts of $$'s to NY.

Let's see them stop me from taking a picture using my camera phone on my daily commute, not that I'm awake long enough to do so.

A ban does not stop and will not stop a terrorist act, period! No question about it.

Mike

Mike is 100% right. A ban does nothing but stop honest people. Someone hell bent on getting the photo would still get it. But, it would make them stick out like a sore thumb, and be much more likely to be remembered by one of the "honest" folk.

But, it would make them stick out like a sore thumb, and be much more likely to be remembered by one of the "honest" folk.

So, essentially, the ban would be effective. But, it presents a bigger issue; one where the government becomes a downright hypocrite. In an instance like this, civilians are 'forced' to forfeit basic civil liberties, even though that's exactly what is meant to be promoted.

They're telling us to keep doing what we're doing, and live our normal, care free lives. In my book, that means full entitlement to my basic freedoms. So they ban photography in metropolitan transportation hubs, and BAM! I'm not allowed to do what the government is telling me to do. Maybe my view is a little skewed and/or stupid. It definately sounded better in my head.


Brian

Mikephotos,

Very, very well done!

''A ban does not stop and will not stop a terrorist act, period! No question about it.''


To the point.

Mike

this shit is serioulay is getting annoying! government is getting away with to much under this umbrella of so called "secuirty." we have rights as citizens of this country and it's about time our government stopped infinging on them!

i applaud mayor bloomberg and the straphangers for fighting this!

[Edited 2004-06-04 07:09:55]

In the 1960s, over a three day period, the US Army, curious to see how gassing a subway system might work, set about (secretly) dispensing "Bacillus subtilis variant niger" throughout the New York City subway system...considered to be harmless..(?)..and it has been estimated in some reports of this incident, that up to a million civilians were exposed when lightbulbs filled with bacteria were dropped onto ventilation grates from city sidewalks.

A cloud was set off in an Eighth Avenue station and was rapidly dispersed to the rest of the city by passing trains.

The experiments were disclosed during a 1977 congressional investigation, which also included spraying bacteria at National Airport in Washington.

But we are to suppose terrorists will need cameras and have not done their homework.

As far as I can remember, the last (publicly disclosed anyway) group of genuinely suspicious characters detained by the NYPD for photographing (architecturally bland) govt buildings post 911 in NYC had to be released (and no doubt vanished) because either the INS or FBI, or both, weren't available on the weekend/holiday/whatever to provide the legal justification for holding them.

Of course, some may say the MTA is in charge and "can do what it wants" ..and the fact that trampling your personal freedoms will do absolutely nothing to make you safer will be acknowledged, it will also be deemed "understandable." and all that good stuff.. (huh?)... ho ho ho...

lucky i got a shot of the "E" train pulling into Penn station. how would you police it especially those of us who have cameras built into our phones, ban camera phones in the subway?

[Edited 2004-06-04 11:35:12]

[Edited 2004-06-04 11:41:05]

I always thought America was supposed to be the land of the free.  

Seriously who is going to enforce such a stupid rule? Are the going to put a police officer in each carriage?

And what about camera phones? I can take pics with my phone and it just looks like I'm writing a text message.


Jamo

I think I see a pattern developing.

America is gradually turning into Saudi Arabia. You can't take any pictures there at airports or any other places of interest of any sort.

Andy

Hmm, didn't know terrorists spot trains...

-Joge

Here's something interesting.. an NYPD guide to spotting possible terrorists.

Mostly common sense..

http://www.wnbc.com/news/3316014/detail.html

also www.strongsignals.net

..but here are a few items of interest...

The cards warn officers to be on the lookout for people who ....videotape or photograph "any activity beyond what an ordinary tourist would do."

Inside a home, suspicious signs could include little or no furniture besides a mattress, the presence of radio scanners or night-vision equipment, and airline receipts showing the booking of flights with unnecessary layovers.

"The cards warn officers to be on the lookout for people who ....videotape or photograph "any activity beyond what an ordinary tourist would do."

Inside a home, suspicious signs could include little or no furniture besides a mattress, the presence of radio scanners or night-vision equipment, and airline receipts showing the booking of flights with unnecessary layovers."

OMFG !!!! THAT'S ALL OF US !!!!!! (Maybe not the night vision).

Mandala499

Just to add my two cents...

In Moscow it's forbidden too to take pics inside the subway.

Here's an article about the ban from the Village Voice:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0423/haber.php

Andrew

Photography on Boston's subway system has just been banned, and announcements are made on trains and in stations asking riders to notify authorities immediately upon seeing anyone taking photos (as well as doing a laundry list of other suspicious activities).

Inside a home, suspicious signs could include little or no furniture besides a mattress, the presence of radio scanners or night-vision equipment, and airline receipts showing the booking of flights with unnecessary layovers.

Hahaha, wow. I'm a terrorist! 

B

I can just see a terrorist plotter saying, "hmm, damn, $25 fine. I'd better not risk throwing this terrorist plot into bankruptcy. I'll put the camera away and get out my etch-a-sketch."

This is STUPIDTY!!! 

i've said it once and i'll say it again: this is a step in the wrong direction, backwards!



here's an idea, why don't they just make everything illegal and cal themselves communists?

[Edited 2004-06-07 08:12:51]