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futterman
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New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:22 am

haha, Tim.  Wink/being sarcastic

The secret seems to be out in Europe, and less than a day until the rumored American unveling of the new model, but Phil Askey still got his copy and a nice big preview up on DPR.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0408/04081909canon_eos20d.asp


Yeah, I know, there are TWO other threads, but they were...uhh...each expressing a certain amount of doubt.  Smile

The guys behind the counter at B&H were extremely skeptical on Wednesday, and hadn't even heard of any rumors. I'm dropping by tomorrow morning to see what they think.


Seems like a damn good camera, but I'm not sure I'd like to be one of the first people to have one. I want to hear the horror stories.


Brian
What the FUTT?
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:25 am

Like I said in the previous thread, these are the factors that my eventual purchase will depend on:

High ISO Performance
E-TTL2 <- This is confirmed
AF Performance

I will need to compare this camera side-by-side with a Mk2 to decide if the Mk2 is worth the extra pennies...

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
futterman
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:34 am

Probably to Phil's dismay, there's the 580EX... I'm sure, though, the 550EX is just THAT good that many people won't be pressured to change. I wouldn't know.

On the train coming home today, I was thinking about whether or not the capabilities in this 20D were really what I needed. I tried to justify preferring a 10D, but other than the name (10D) that rolls off the tounge, the 20D is better in most respects. The flash, buffer/continuous drive, ISO, shutter speeds...there's also the AA battery magazine. That would definately come in handy.


Hmmm...maybe I'll sign up for the waiting list tomorrow...  Big grin
What the FUTT?
 
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JeffM
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:35 am

Let the dust settle before purchasing. After reading about some of the issues the 1dmkII has, I'm sure there will be some with this camera as there is with any camera.

I do like some of the new features... I like the looks of the 10-22mm lens!

Anyone want to buy a D100?  Big grin


-Jeff
 
ckw
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:48 am

With all Canon cameras to date you have a dilemna - either get on a list immediately or risk a long wait.

Every Canon DSLR camera to date has been plagued by "issues" in the various forum - 90% of these usually end up being operator error or false expectations. Most people seem to get on and take great pics regardless.

To my mind this is certainly a better camera than initial reports suggested - the fact the the AF system has been replaced is to my mind the most important improvement, and indeed may well head off a number of potential Mk2 buyers.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
runway23
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:14 am

Brian,

Why you little... Big grin

Seriously the 20D looks fantastic, apparently the iso at 1600 is equal to what the 10D is at 400 right now.

Not sure at this point in time if I'll go out and buy it, the 10D is still a great camera though I do need an extra body.

Rgds,
Tim
 
AndrewAir
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:43 am

The 20D looks great.

The 20D is the camera for me. I'll wait a few months to see what the "issues" are, but until then I'm happy with my D30.



AMc
 
KLGAviation
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:20 am

There are certain times in life when you are happy with the money you have. Right now isn't one of them. Acting devilish

If I had the money I'd go for it. But as you guys say it is not desirable to be the first to own it. Brian, you mentioned (privately) buying the 10D, then later selling it to buy the 20D. On the long run I think (well, know) that wouldn't be profitable; the value of a car literally drops $5,000 the second you drive it out of the showroom. So, what is the word of the day? Patience.

Chris



[Edited 2004-08-20 03:24:49]
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
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Bruce
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:50 am

I think this camera will be the nail in the coffin of slide & film.....

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
joe pries
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:01 pm

Heck yeah, this is what i've been waiting for- a $1500 camera that is 8MP and improved greatly over the already tremendous 10D. I'll be putting myself on the list shortly for this one. Once again regardless of what anyone says Canon is the undisputed leader in this business- they prove it again and again and again.

JP
 
DB777
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:15 pm

Yada yada yada crooked eye Joey. We guess you've suffered amnesia and don't remember all your complaints, whining and crying on the dpreview.com forums when you got your new 10D and had so many problems that you wanted to buy your D60 back from the sucker who bought it from you?  Smile Your postings are probably still in the dpreview.com archives for some really great laughs if anyone wants to search for them. What month did you get your 10D? I bet this time you don't sell your 10D until you get the hang of the 20D, huh?
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
vafi88
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:45 pm

Anyone want to buy a D100?

Starting bid - me : I got 2 dolla and 85 cent...  Big thumbs up
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DB777
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:17 pm

Some great Canon humor courtesy of Joey P: ("sikly smooth beautiful D60 photos") and there's other great ones under the same JPCAP name.

From dpreview.com Canon EOS-10D/D60/D30 forum:
Subject 10D- not a good day
Posted by JPCAP [CLICK FOR PROFILE]
Date/Time 2:52:02 AM, Monday, May 19, 2003 (GMT)

Hi all,
tried out my brand new 10D today. I had a D60 since April 2002 and loved it. Now im ready to cry- most of my 10D shots are coming out soft or more like a cheap non-dslr digital camera- i dont know what to do, do i bump up the sharpening, what can possibly cause this- im used to my sikly smooth beautiful D60 photos, this is a horror show. Someone please help. Thanks.
btw i used my 70-200 F2.8 L I.S. and 16-35 F2.8 with the 10D today.
JPCAP
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
codeshare
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:25 pm

Sorry, I'll be patiently waiting for what Nikon has to offer.
It's going to be better anyway  Big thumbs up

How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
IL76
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:05 pm

Nice!  Smile
Very tempting, but I'll skip a generation. My 10D is just over a year old and by far not subject to replacement. Caughing up $1700+ every year to keep up with the latest, while my car is held together by duct tape, my washing machine leaks a gallon of water with every wash and the girlfriend is yapping about moving to a bigger place, prioritising is in order! Big grin Better save my money for more important purchases at the moment. Hopefully my 10D will serve me for at least another 2 years or so, and lets see what Canon has to offer by then...
 Big grin
Eduard
 
Skymonster
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:08 pm

I must say, from what I've read, I'm impressed. The writing is probably on the wall for my D60, to be relegated to backup duties. However, I can wait... We'll see what the REAL story is on the 20D when it starts being used before handing over the readies, and if that means I have to sit on a waiting list for a while, so be it because right now the D60 is doing OK.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:12 pm

Hi all,
tried out my brand new 10D today. I had a D60 since April 2002 and loved it. Now im ready to cry- most of my 10D shots are coming out soft or more like a cheap non-dslr digital camera- i dont know what to do, do i bump up the sharpening, what can possibly cause this- im used to my sikly smooth beautiful D60 photos, this is a horror show. Someone please help. Thanks.
btw i used my 70-200 F2.8 L I.S. and 16-35 F2.8 with the 10D today.
JPCAP


HAHAHAH!  Big thumbs up This is a joke right?
 
joe pries
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:56 pm

DB777, Chad,
My first day with the 10D was miserable indeed- I had a job to do for a client that coming weekend and I was getting soft shots because I didn't know what I was doing with the camera and my D60 was already sold- once I went to center metering as advised by dpreview forum members I was A-OK. You can try to put me down all you want here and i'll take the heat but your old, outdated S2 that barely anyone has bought (all I ever hear is D100) gets trounced by the new 20D with all those nice features- heck even by the 10D as far as i'm concerned  Big grin

JP
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:59 pm

Joe,

I wasnt putting you down, I am just shocked that you of all people had trouble with a camera.  Big grin
 
ua935
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:23 pm

As the sensor is the same size as the EOS 300D but the pixels have been upped does any one know if this will result in a more grainy/pixelated image or have Canon countered this effect with in camera software?

Any ideas or will we just have to wait and see?

When is the new EF-S wideangle zoom due for release?

Regards Simon
Live every second like you mean it
 
ckw
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:36 pm

I am just shocked that you of all people had trouble with a camera

I think many of us have been there ... each DSLR to date has had its own little quirks, and anyone who thinks they can take one off the shelf and get the best out of straight away is fooling themselves.

Most of the moaning on DPReview is largely a consequence of this - a recent example was "horrible reds" on the 1D2. In fact, the reds are fine, but, the exposure characteristics, dynamic range and colour options are quite different to previous Canon cameras - you have to relearn. Those who took the time are happy enough.

You can be sure that the 20D will be reported as "soft" and whatever else compared to XXX for a few weeks/months - this is a new sensor and will have its own characteristics.

I think by now we can be reasonably confident that Canon will produce the goods and its perfectly safe to buy now - I figure if a camera has features you need, you need 'em straight away. I hate that "I wish I'd had this camera 6 months ago" feeling  Smile

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
runway23
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:14 pm

All Canon cameras are soft, but I have to say the samples that Canon released are impressive, I had fun processing them to see just how good they are. I find the results are comparable to the 1Dmkii, though of course not quite there, and I don't think anybody expects it to be with such a price difference.

The main draw back with the camera is the very small Raw buffer: only 6 photos. I'm sure that will put off a few people from buying this camera.

Regards,
Tim
 
chris78cpr
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:25 pm

This camera does not interest me that much, mk2 is still for me!!! Got my name down for a 580EX already!!! I so hope that canon have bettered their flash system!!! Took way to long to get good results from my 550!!!

Cheers,

Chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
ckw
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:06 pm

Don't think there's much wrong with Canon flashes, but their exposure system lags behind Nikon's by some way in this respect. The new E-TTL2 system in the Mk2 and to be included in the 20D is a big improv3ment in my opinion, however, many photographers have found it problematic.

I don't do enough "challenging" flash work to really assess this, but for what I do, the new system seems less prone to exposure errors.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
flightuk
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:45 pm

Thanks very much. I have just bought a 10D.
 
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Bruce
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:22 am

The # of pixels is up to 8 million but the picture size remains 3072 x 2048, how is this possible? How can you add more pixels but keep the dimensions the same? Are they smaller pixels - and what effect does that have on the picture quality?

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:29 am

Bruce... What you talk about is numbers shown in a premature report. They just took the stats of the 10D and changed some figures. They forgot to change output size.

This is the 20D output:

• 3504 x 2336 (8.2 MP) *
• 2544 x 1696 (4.3 MP) *
• 1728 x 1152 (2.0 MP) *

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
KLGAviation
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:29 am

Bruce,

The resolution is 3504 x 2336... which does match up with 8.2 mp.

The battle of camera shopping will never end... I buy a camera, the price lowers, a new one comes out, the price lowers.....

Chris
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
cancidas
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:29 am

so futt, are you going to buy this one now?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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rg828
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:40 am

The # of pixels is up to 8 million but the picture size remains 3072 x 2048, how is this possible?

I asked this same question on the other thread, I guess they reduced the size of the pixels.

I'm wondering why they reduced the size of the camera, the D60/10D were never BIG to begin with, they even had to redesign the vertical grip.
the 10-22 mm lens seems great, I only wish they made it an "L" f2.8.
I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
 
runway23
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:44 am

the 10-22 mm lens seems great, I only wish they made it an "L" f2.8.

It looks ok but it's still an EF-S lens which costs 700$, somewhat expensive for an f/3.5-4.5 lens which is compatible on only a few cameras. Like you say an L f/2.8 at that focal length would be great and would certainly get a lot of people interested.

Tim
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:47 am

In the discussion on pixels, I read where not all pixels are necessarily "effective". If they are not effective, what are they doing there?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:51 am

BB1331,

Think of them as the pixels at the very edge of the sensor. They do not really produce the image, but are a safe boundary to prevent a sloppy edge.
Wietse de Graaf
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:52 am

The centre focussing point functions as a cross-type sensor when using lenses with an f/2.8 or faster aperture.


Anyone? What does this mean? Is a cross type sensor more sensitive? I have never heard of such a thing.

Thanks!
Wietse de Graaf
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:56 am

Nevermind Big grin

Found this in a Fred Miranda FAQ

Keep in mind that the outer focusing points detect contrast on a single-axis. Therefore, the outer focusing points are aligned vertically when you hold the D30 horizontally, and visa versa. Fortunately, the camera has a central cross-type sensor that diverts this problem by finding the contrast horizontally and vertically at the same time regardless of the position of the camera. With this in mind, it's best to use the central point as your default choice for the majority of your shots.
Wietse de Graaf
 
Bronko
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:53 am

Does the 5 FPS & 23 shot buffer apply to large .RAW files?
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
Skymonster
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:21 am

With RAW, 5FPS yes, 23 shut buffer no - its only 5 with RAW

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
siggi757
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:28 am

The pixels that are not effective are the ones on the edge of the sensor and are covered by the borders. These pixels are therefore totally shielded from all light and give the camera a reading of a "true" black colour (or non-colour) that the camera metering system can work with.

Cheers
 
futterman
Topic Author
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:30 am

so futt, are you going to buy this one now?

As of now, no. I don't care much for EF-S, and despite the fact that there's MkII technology and improved 10D functions and features, the 10D is still an extremely viable camera.

The word 'improved' is probably going to be used viciously. People definately have qualms about the 10D, but it's been an outstanding piece of equipment and is still on my list.

Ask me again in five minutes if you don't like this answer.  Smile

Someone posted their initial reactions to the 20D after a 15 minute hands on experience with one out in the FM forums. I think their phrasing it as 'ho hum' sums it up. Depends what you're out for, but for me, the 10D is suitable.

Besides, what's it to you, MC? You're not going to be using it, anyway...  Big grin


Brian


EDIT: It hasn't even been two minues, but I wonder, seriously, what you guys would do. Waiting is definately on the agenda, but right here and now, 10 or 20?

[Edited 2004-08-20 20:34:48]
What the FUTT?
 
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clickhappy
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:35 am

How can you make a pixel smaller? I dont think thats possible?
 
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Bruce
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:36 am

So if the center focus point is best then who cares if it has 9 points or 7? Why would it be relevant at all how many other points there are? Now maybe if Canon would design a cross-type sensor for EVERY focus point........

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
futterman
Topic Author
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:40 am

Royal,

High pixel density is made possible by the introduction of smaller area photo-diodes with a better S/N ratio and equivalent sensitivity to those of the EOS 10D. Improved high-performance micro lenses positioned above each photo-diode increase the percentage of light reaching the pixels, enhancing high-ISO performance and improving image quality.

I guess it's hard to see what the end result would be, photo wise, as this is all brand new technology. I suppose, with this 'higher pixel density,' megapixel-counting ("Ooh, 8 is more than 6!") may have some truth to it...?


Don't forget reply 38.  Wink/being sarcastic
What the FUTT?
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:48 am

Bruce...

The cross type sensor is very expensive and complicated.. Even the EOS 3 has only 7 of these sensors. The D30 has one as well. They only show their value when it is very difficult to pick up contrast in low light. For all other uses the normal points are easily sufficient.

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
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clickhappy
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:49 am

Well, I guess we will have to see how well this technology works, and how well Canon is commited to it. I find it interesting that new technology is being introduced on a lower quality camera, it makes me think that they are indeed trying to cash in on the "more is better" myth in regards to pixel count.

Don't most companies introduce their "newer cooler faster better" technologies on more expensive models and then let it trickle down into the marketplace?

And I just read the following on DPReview, remember the issues when the 8 megapixel Sony came out, as compared to the 707/717 (same sensor size, more pixels)?

On June 11 news surfaced of a new Sony sensor with an amazing eight megapixels. This sensor took the same 2/3" type size (8.8 x 6.6 mm) of the previous five megapixel sensor used in the DSC-F717. At this size and resolution the pixel pitch (distance between pixels) is just 2.7 µm, extremely small and this raised questions of noise and sensitivity, those answer we will only be able to deliver in our full review.

[Edited 2004-08-20 20:53:10]
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 3:53 am

How can you make a pixel smaller? I dont think thats possible?

You are right, that is impossible. A pixel is a dot on your computer screen. The number of pixels is a measurement of how the output will look like.

What is being made smaller here is the size of the light recepting cells on the sensor. They are smaller on this chip, therefore it can fit 8.2 million pixels.

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
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JeffM
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:43 am

Weitse is correct. There are not ANY pixels on your sensor, just "photosites". Pixels are on your screen or printer. A sensor is just a bunch of silicon chips containing millions of photosensitive diodes called photosites.

Each photosite records the intensity or brightness of the light that falls on it by accumulating a charge; the more light, the higher the charge. The brightness recorded by each photosite is then stored as a set of numbers that can then be used to set the color and brightness of dots on the screen or ink on the printed page to reconstruct the image.

Lesson of the day?  Big grin
 
Skymonster
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:26 am

I hear that a certain well known a.net photographer from "North of the Border" (in UK terms, that is) has already placed a pre-order for one of these wee beasties to replace his D30!!! And if he thinks its a good camera, it must be!!!

With 8 million pixels at his disposal instead of 3 million, I think that there's a risk his pictures could become quite good! Big grin

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
futterman
Topic Author
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:38 am

With 8 million pixels at his disposal instead of 3 million...

8 million photosites, you mean?  Big grin
What the FUTT?
 
wietse
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:44 am

Nope, pixels this time Big grin You dont work with the photosites on your sensor, you work with the pixels that sensor puts out  Big grin
Wietse de Graaf
 
futterman
Topic Author
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RE: New Canon 20D: 100% Official

Sat Aug 21, 2004 7:58 am

I'd tone it down, Wietse...the replacement of screening with couch-potato car races is known to have an impact on one's photographic knowledge.  Big grin

Wouldn't want to overload Andy. Whoops, I mean 'him.'  Smile
What the FUTT?

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