Brian, he did remove it.

Also, the comments would have been screened.

Did you read any of his comments?

Yes I did Royal. I'm at work and he must have posted as I was replying when I had the chance to. You know how that works. I edited.

And yes I did read his comments. I still don't want it. We should have been asked our opinions about this first.

Hey I'm coming up to SEA for the day Dec 1 if you have a chance to hang out. I'll shoot you an email.

Brian - SPOT THIS!

Johan,

I have been a bit busy and did not see the feature but perhaps if photographers could turn on or turn off via the myphotos page and at least a longer trial could be had by those that are willing to try it out? I am thinking all or none in a photographers photos on the DB and not like the sales where individual photos can be selected for sale. Maybe others will see the benefits and click the yes button too. A bit more marketing of the idea may help too and if it turns to custard then remove it.

All,

We as photographers should be willing to try new things for a time to see just how they work out rather than just dump them at the first sign of some adverse comment. Remember the old saying even bad advertising is still good advertising. Johan did mention that the comments will be screened and only positive ones added so what have we got to be concerned about?

My $0.02c worth.

Cheers,
Colin

I've just reading this thread now.

It looks like it wasn't explained properly or there was a lack of consultation
prior to bringing the feature in. (I didn't see what it looked like earlier)
Comments will be fine if they're screened, as stated.

Gerry

I see here a bunch of cowards afraid of what others say, if you're confident about your work what are you afraid of?

Also Brian, did you read anything about this? comments would be screened!

Johan please, this can be worked, I think, listen to people and we might reach a good compromisse, can this be optional like the buy a print feature?

I'm going to repeat my previous message about this:

"Any intelligent person knows how to separate the relevant comments from the irrelevant ones, I don't worry too much about this feature, but would like to have the final word about any comment acceptance, I mean, the ideal would be the photographer to decide if any comment deserves to be approved or not.

I don't know how hard is it to Johan but could it be possible to have the comments on standby somewhere in the photographers corner, waiting for the photographer to give the final OK to make them public, or not."

Luis

We as photographers should be willing to try new things for a time to see just how they work out rather than just dump them at the first sign of some adverse comment. Remember the old saying even bad advertising is still good advertising. Johan did mention that the comments will be screened and only positive ones added so what have we got to be concerned about?

Very good points indeed. However, I think the reaction would have been a lot more positive if there was a post soliciting feedback about the idea before it was implemented. A lot of people misunderstood, myself included to a degree.

If the comments are only for the photographer to see, or an option (al la the sell your photos feature) I'd be all for it, as long as they're kept to positive comments only.

On the other hand, I do not want my photos "judged". Art should not be "rated" as it is subjective to each individual person. What would be stopping me from going thru all of Justin Cederholm's photos and ranking then "poor" because I think he's a terd? What If I didn't like some of Royal's comments and ranked the photo poor because of it. Was there anything in place to stop that? Surely this would not be an accurate tally of a photos worth.

Second, I think there are more important issues to the photographers that should be addressed. For instance, setting up a email verification process before a comment is sent to us. That would keep people from sending abusive email with a fake address, which I don't think we need. Further, a better way to protect of photos from copyright theft. It's still way too easy to take photos off here, and now that people are uploading larger sizes, I think it's more tempting to those who steal of photos for their own gain. There's been some good ideas discussed, but these subjects are best meant for another post.

Brian - SPOT THIS!

PS: Luis, did YOU happen to read MY comments? (I'm at work and he must have posted as I was replying when I had the chance to...And yes I did read his comments. I still don't want it. We should have been asked our opinions about this first.)

[Edited 2004-11-25 21:11:04]

How about let photographer decide whether his photos can be rated? Just like "Make all my photos for sale" in Photographer's Corner section.

Ray

>A lot of people misunderstood, myself included to a degree.

I posted in the thread that i was testing it and that comments would not be added without screening. What was so hard to understand about that. If people spent less time criticizing new features and actually read my posts and considered the possibilities, it would help a lot.

>Art should not be "rated" as it is subjective to each individual person.

So what do you think the photo screening process is all about? We all judge but no one has claimed the judgements are objective. If most people would rate a photo of yours "fair" then accept that it is the case whatever view you have about the photo. It does not imply that the photo is only "fair", as with screening, it's a subjective matter.

>What would be stopping me from going thru all of Justin
>Cederholm's photos and ranking then "poor" because I think he's a terd?

You go ahead and do that, it will make no difference what-so-ever. If 100,000 people vote "Excellent" and you rate "fair", surely you must understand your rating is insignificant. In the long run, the rating will reflect the "real" view of the visitors.

>For instance, setting up a email verification process
>beore a comment is sent to us.

We're working on such things similar to what you describe but are waiting for the "myphotos" section to be completed. You should be able to choose if you want to be contacted at all, contacted by members only, contacted by verified email address or contacted by everyone.

>Further, a better way to protect of photos from copyright theft.

This is extremely difficult. If you can view the photo - you already have it on your computer. Still, there are a few things that can be done, most of which is already implemented. This is one of very few situations where what's good for the visitor might not be good for the photographer (although it can be argued otherwise). Putting a large copyright sign all over the photo might be good for the photographer in some situations while not good for the visitor.

>We should have been asked our opinions about this first.

That does not work. I've tried it before and for complex functions like this one people just don't get it (and are having enough problems getting it even though the feature was there for all to try). Something like this needs to be implemented and tested live for people to understand what it's all about.

/ Johan

I posted in the thread that i was testing it and that comments would not be added without screening. What was so hard to understand about that.

No need to get all arrogant over this, if several photographers say that they are not pleased with this, is that not a clear sign? I mean, come on, great that your are perfecting this site, but if the response is negative, take it like a man and accept "defeat".

I am glad that you listened to us, I really am, but please, you request grown-up and constructive critizism from us, and I expect the same from you.

Cheers

Sorry Johan, I just didn't like the feature at all.

The comments linked to Antti Salo's magnificent picture above were mostly one lined, mostly infantile and poor spelt (using internet "slang) which detracted greatly (and this is MY opinion) from the professional image this site has built over the last 7-8 years.

Comments like "Great photo", "Very nice" etc etc don't offer anything constructive whatsoever. Your screeners rate your photos in accepting them - they're either good enough or they're not.

Please don't take our opinions to heart, mostly photographers were saying that it should be OPTIONAL and selectable on or off via the "myphotos" page. To some an idea like this has merit, to others it doesn't.

I see here a bunch of cowards afraid of what others say, if you're confident about your work what are you afraid of?

Luis, I find this comment completely out of character for you mate. I don't consider myself a coward at all and happily accept criticism of my work but I prefer that (and the rare compliments about my one or two nice shots here) to come by e-mail. To have comments such as "Top picture", "Nice light", "Nice detail and sharpness", "How do you get such photos and what camera do you use" linked to my photos simply doesn't appeal to me at all.

It's unfortunate that you've taken this to heart Johan but it's nice to know that even against your better judgement you can still listen to peoples criticisms via the forums and act accordingly. Again you've demonstrated the fairness that in general people associate with this site.

Isn't it an idea to just put the thing on the site for let's say 5 days and let everyone review it after those 5 days?

Kas

I'm having trouble deciding my true opinion on this new feature...

At first it seemed like a nice thing - Everyone can leave a quick, anonymous comment on your photo, but on the other hand...

I for one appreciate constructive critisism for my photos, be it negative or positive, but honestly comments like "WOW", "wicked pic dude!!!!11" and "cool" are a tad useless. Now what about occasional inevitable 100 comments like this under one photo? My top 24/48hrs photo of yesterday is a good example (even though there were a couple of funny or otherwise good comments too   ).

It's nice to have the possibility to comment on other people's photos, but if you really like some photo/want to critisize it, there's always the "contact photographer" - function!

My opinion isn't fully "for" this comment feature, but neither is it fully "against".

-Antti

Well Craig, I know what I wrote, it was the reaction after reading lots of unconstructive "NO's".

peace
Luis

When i saw the rating and comments today i was surprised, must have missed it completely in the forum.
As long as clearly stupid things are filtered i am in favor of it, not because of Johan's statement though but just because i like the idea when done properly.

I am not afraid to admit that my ego is big enough to know what other people like to see and/or enjoy.
Not so much to read all the praises but especially the critical notes will get my attention.


Willem

I would just like to thank Johan for listening and reading the posts. I think the idea did have some merits as pointed out above. But i could also see it causing problems aswell....

At the end of the day i think the site is excellent as it is , so why change it  

Johan, my comment about traffic/income wasn't meant to be a negative one. Just a statement. I believe the function would make a.net a more fun site to visit for non-photogs. While for photogs it might be a little annoying. At the end of the day it's up to you. Its good to see some work is done to improve the site.

/chris

It is with great regret that I have removed the comments and the rating field.

I understand you being disappointed by many photographer's reaction to this. However, I think it is in part due to the fact that you "sprung" this on them. Most photographers are - rightly or wrongly - very protective about their work, and a change to the presentation of their images is bound to provoke a strong reaction.

I think it might've been helpful to have discussed the matter - via this forum - before implementing the feature. Perhaps then issues of concern could have been resolved, and an acceptable method agreed on.

YOU may feel we are negative prima-donnas. WE may feel you were being high-handed and cavalier in the treatment of our images.

Cheers,

Colin

Some kind of rating could be implemented if done properly and in the professional spirit of this website, agree on that. And a bit of a consensus and good communication about this with the photographers would be a good thing.

Just an idea: you can rate a picture 1 to 5 stars. No mention of bad or excellent, just the stars (a bit like amazon does it).

When say at least 50 votes are counted a rating is visible on with the photo. The photographer can choose if he wants to participate in the rating story (either via the upload-page or the mypictures-page):



A new selection could be made with the "best rated pictures of the last week" based on the average ratings received.


Kind regards,
Erwin

>Couldn't the time and effort be put into more important and useful projects?

Thank you for the appreciation mate, very kind of you.

Johan, I was not referring to the time you've put into this project already. I was talking about all the time in the future that would be spent by someone to screen the large number of comments posted. Nothing personal meant...

-Q

Colin, you've summed up what I was getting at better than I did myself, even tho I was chastised for it.

Then again, Johan has never had the kid gloves on dealing with me.  

So what do you think the photo screening process is all about?

You really don't wanna hear my thoughts on that.  

It does not imply that the photo is only "fair", as with screening, it's a subjective matter.

The screeners approval is all I need or want.

Brian - SPOT THIS!

[Edited 2004-11-25 23:20:10]

As for the need for comments, nah, I dont think it is necessary or good. People already have a way to comment: the email button. I have received dozens of cool comments from people all over the world on my photos and I have saved them all. BTW, people usually don't take the effort to comment negatively. In the retail business they say you get 7 people who will compliment the Store Manager to every 1 who complains. (those who have negative experiences usually go to another store w/o complaining). Same idea here: if a person thinks a photo sucks they will probably not click on it or go on to another photo.

Anyway, having comments under the photo is an unnecessary feature. But i think you could design a 5 star rating system where people could vote on a photo, something like what Erwin has above.

bruce

This is a Pandora's Box.

I would hope we could voluntarily opt-out if we choose to. I too was surprised that this went live without any consultation. That would have been the professional thing to do, seeing as ALL photographic content (and the lion's share of interest for visitors coming here) is supplied by us. Our input and opinions should be valid. Not scorned and ridiculed.

The discussion between proprietor (Johan) and supplier (the photographers) should be open and constructive on both sides. Any and all decisions affecting the integrity of our intellectual property should be discussed PRIOR to new use..."beta testing" or not. If we resign that right when we upload to this site, I would like to know that up front, right now.

Is that the case Johan? Can you do whatever you want with our images whenever you want without consultation?

I am not trying to be a smart ass here... I sincerely would like to know.

wm

>That would have been the professional thing to do, seeing as ALL
>photographic content (and the lion's share of interest for visitors coming
>here) is supplied by us.

I have already addressed that in my previous post, why aren't people reading my posts!

>Is that the case Johan?

No. We are working on a "terms and conditions" document that you all have to sign for your photos to remain on the site, that will outline in detail what we can and cannot do. But more about that later.

I do get rather emotional over this. I believe in the idea and have spend a considerable time working on it. Naturally the views of the photographers are important to me and when you are very negative (especially for invalid reasons!) I get rather irritated. However, I become just as happy when you like a new feature as I am irritated now and again, this is simply showing that your views are indeed very important for me and for the development of new features/sections of the site.

/ Johan

Just a thought on this



If I saw something like this (the rating) I would want to know who rated it and on what basis it scored that rating. Basically the top four photos of the day would rate their backsides off and probably not too much else.

Ratings are generally offered by experts, people with a specific knowledge with regards to the subject in question. Having ANY user "rate" a photo really isn't providing a true "rating" is it??

What about appointing a photographic expert, a person of a neutral persuasion in relation to a.net, to sit and look at EVERY photo and "rate" it accordingly? That to me is how this should be done properly.

Johan,

I understand how you must feel. Removing a feature you strongly believed in and worked very hard for to implement (even though only on a test basis) must be really hard. However, apparantly the majority of the well-known contributors and participators voted against it. I'm pretty sure all of them really appreciate the fact that you've listened to their feedback and decided to remove it, even while you continued to believe in this feature. You could have ignored the comments, but you didn't. Therefor, a big 'thumbs up'.

Me, at first I liked the idea a lot, but I started wondering how many people would make use of this new feature? OK, it's a bit easier writing a plain comment than sending an email to the photographer stating that a certain photo is excellent, but isn't it so that if somebody really likes a certain photo and wants to show his/her appreciation, he/she will still send an email to the photographer, without having to make it public? So, in fact the viewers of the site already dó show their appreciation, it just stays between them and the photographer.

It's nice to get feedback from viewers (both positive and negative) but getting those comments by email is just as good for me. On the other hand, something like 'Give your comment' could provoke more actual comments on photos than 'Send an email'.

I can also very well imagine some photographers were getting a bit afraid that comments (especially the first comments of a photo) could bias potential users/buyers of photos. Comments might influence one's opinion on the same photo. Nothing is as bad as a biased opinion.

Personally, I believe more in a combination of a rating system like the one Erwin showed (layout-wise) with the 'comments by email' function. Maybe something like this could eventually replace the system where the number of hits decides on the top photos. Imagine something like '5 Stars Of Today' or so.

Or, if the photographers could choose between making the comments on their photos public or not, this could mean a new start for this project.

Greets,
Ivan

I have already addressed that in my previous post, why aren't people reading my posts!

I indeed read these comments:

That does not work. I've tried it before and for complex functions like this one people just don't get it (and are having enough problems getting it even though the feature was there for all to try). Something like this needs to be implemented and tested live for people to understand what it's all about.

But it still does not make it okay to discount and/or ignore the photographers right to know what's being done to, with or in regards to our photos. Don't let the irrational, reflexive reactions of the few to override the needs of the larger, often lurking majority.

Which brings me to the "ratings" feature, now thankfully disabled.

I think what bothers some of us Johan, is some of these comments, good or bad, basically amounts to graffiti. Imagine spending weeks painting your house. You get it looking EXACTLY as you want it and you spent good money on the supplies to paint it. Then, one day, you wake to find it covered in graffiti. It may even be complementary. i.e.: "Nice paint job!" But I seriously don't think there's ONE person here who whould say, "that's okay... I am sure the young lads are just looking for a way to express themselves." We just want to show of our very well painted houses. Anything beyond that is just distracting and in some cases detrimental.

In my view, this feature gives more power to the peanut gallery than anything else. And all you have to do is spend some time in NonAv to see the value of the peanut gallery.

I think a "Terms of Service" is a very good idea. Full disclosure.

Johan, thanks for listening to us. But next time, send a shot across our bow okay? Remember the last time something like this happened?:
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/112353/6/

Happy Tryptophan Day,

wm

Hey!


In my estimation the photos on this site have already been rated as EXCELLENT, or they would not be here. They have been rated by our peers and that should be sufficient.
I used to work for a company that always liked to change things for the sake of change only. I posted a sign one day that read: 'We had a good idea...it worked! We're not using it anymore".
As to comments on the pics; this is redundant. E-mail makes it easy for folks to comment on our work and they do!
The only suggestion I have for change would be new cut and paste rejection notices that were simpler to understand, addressed the rejection reason clearly and possibly offered a bit of photographic advice for the issue in the particular photo.

BIGDEN

I've got to throw my thoughts into the fray here as well. I too am not overly thrilled about such an idea. If I want someone's opinions on my pictures, I will ask them. However, I also welcome the opportunity for someone to email me with a suggestion or a comment, whatever the case. I try to be open to suggestion and criticism, but I think this will get well out of hand to be honest. My feelings are this...if the screeners that determine a photo's worthiness of acceptance feel it's good enough to get into the database, then it should be good enough for everyone else. For example, nobody is forcing anyone to look at any of my photos, but if someone does and they either like it or don't, then I would rather someone email me or otherwise contact me with a suggestion or other comment. I don't submit photos to compete or to be rated against other photos...I submit them to share with the rest of the world, and if they're good enough to get accepted into a database with very high standards, then yay me, you know!   That is all I have to say on this matter.   Thanks guys!

"We are working on a "terms and conditions" document that you all have to sign for your photos to remain on the site, that will outline in detail what we can and cannot do. But more about that later."

Any chance of elaborating on this a little further? Call me skeptical but this sounds a little odd.

Hi again,
i kind of like the idea posted by Erwin.
A five star voting system optional to the photographers could be a solution.
But i still wouldn´t like that comment feature.

So, basically i strongly agree with Apunegers last post.

best regards, Denis

Johan,

Now you know how us photogs feel when a picture we really like is rejected!  

I'm over the fence about this feature, but if implemented in the future, I think comments should be accessed by a link and not be shown directly under the photo. And I wish I could request deletion of those I find offensive...

Thanks for your time, Johan & crew.

Saludos

j

Once again, if any of the features are implemented, photographers should have an option of whether to have them on their photos or not. Just like the buy a print of this photo feature that is optional. Some photogs have it, some (including me) do not.

Alex.

Hi guys,

I just discovered this thread. Frankly, I'm shocked by the amount of narcism & elitism expressed by many photographers here. Why do you take yourselves so seriously? After all, the vast majority of us are hobby photographers who just like to show their photos to others.

I haven't seen the new feature as I haven't browsed the website for a few days. But the idea of a comment or rating field is great. Browsing photos is a pretty anonymous thing—why not encouraging visitors to give their opinions? And if there are 100 "wow" comments ... so what? There's no problem at all if they're screened.

I thought we had experts called 'screeners' who decide if pictures are good or bad not the general viewing public!
This is a rather disrespectful remark. Who actually visits this site? Who buys the prints? Who reads magazines that buy photos from photographers? It's the general viewing public, & I see no reason to keep them silent.

I really like Erwin's idea of a star rating. I often open a photo because of some innuendo caption & feel disappointed afterwards. With a rating you can judge the photo in the large version, which is much better than just looking at a thumbnail. I think there has to be some kind of quality rating. With more than 1,000 photos added every day many high-quality shots go unnoticed because you don't see its quality in a thumbnail or it hasn't a catchy comment. Hits are really no good indication for quality.

Johan, please continue the beta testing of these features. Many people haven't even seen it yet, & this forum is not representative for the thousands of uploaders.

Thomas

[Edited 2004-11-26 22:17:18]

Hi,

I would personally prefer that there is something relevant in comment and not just Wow" and "very cool" remarks. Maybe we could have a rule that a comment should include 50 letters minimum, otherwise it will be rejected.

Also some kind of 1 to 5 star system would be better than "Very Bad" to "Excellent". Or "applaud" & "smite" or only "applaud" which are seen some forum software's.

-VR-

it's gone now i think.

European
Jimmi

It's nice to spice up things, refreshing and new ideas are what keeps a concept on the front line, those who prefer to sit and watch will loose the train.

It's a pity to have seen so extreme positions from both sides, this could have been an interesting and refreshing feature for Airliners.net, it only needed to be worked on, really depressing to see how this ended.

Luis