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administrator
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 99):
Here is my problem. This thumbnail could be exactly the size of the picture that the fellow in the story could want, so he could just incorporate that into the website, and its legal.

Yes, as long as it is a link to the big version of your photo. This can certainly happen and you just have to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages. In the long run I believe such links will generate more positive aspects than negative for the photographers. Does anyone really think any significant money will be lost of we allow this?

I do not think too many publishes would be interested in paying for the inclusion of a thumbnail image in their online story and even if so, it will be minimal. More likely, then they will simply link to the photo without a thumbnail which is perfectly legal no matter what you and I think. Instead of forcing people to use boring text links that might result in web publishes not linking to Airliners.net at on their pages - let's allow them to include a thumbnail in the link.

/ Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:28 am

Johan,
would you allow the use of the thumbnails if there was no mention of airliners.net ?

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
digital-cavu
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:11 pm

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:42 pm

Johan, I've considered your responses very carefully. You are right, exposure is a good thing. No doubt about it.

I've reviewed how the thumbs are now being displayed - now that enough people have complained - and agree with the credit the photographer is being given. So as far as that is concerned, the problem is corrected.

My only other issue, is that apparently if you access the site enough times, you exceed some daily limit for non-subscribers, and you are forced to sign up (pay) to continue to view the pictures. So I say again, why is he being allowed to monetarily benefit from our work? You metioned he's not selling access to our photos and from what I can see I must respectfully disagree.

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
administrator
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:42 am

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 101):
would you allow the use of the thumbnails if there was no mention of airliners.net ?

Yes, I would - as long as the photo is a link to Airliners.net. However, seeing that photographers are not as enthusiastic about links as I am, I will from here on require that at least the name of the photographer is present when linking to Airliners.net with thumbnail and not using the Javascript code described here:
https://www.airliners.net/ownsearch/

Also, regarding that page. Note that the photographer name is not included in those links. The only reason for that is to save load on our database servers. As currently setup, none of those links require a singe database connection. Should they require a connection (to fetch the name of the photographer for instance), the load would be too high and we would have to disable such links.

The good thing about those links is that where ever they are used on the web, I can instantly change their appearance. Should our database servers be able to handle the load in the future, I can easily add the name of the photographer and other info. Such changes would appear instantly where ever the links are used.

Quoting Digital-cavu (Reply 102):
Johan, I've considered your responses very carefully. You are right, exposure is a good thing. No doubt about it.

I am glad to hear that!

Quoting Digital-cavu (Reply 102):
So I say again, why is he being allowed to monetarily benefit from our work? You mentioned he's not selling access to our photos and from what I can see I must respectfully disagree.

He is not selling access to your photos, they are all freely available on Airliners.net. He is just using links to your photos, some of those links can not be accessed by everyone. Anyone can create their own secret pages on the net with password protection or whatever and include links to Airliners.net on those password protected pages. I do not see a problem with that. From our point of view, it is irrelevant on what kind of pages our photos are linked from - they can be secret or open, commercial or non-commercial. It's free advertising for you and me any way you look at it. I would not allow thumbnail links like "Look at this crappy photo" or similar but anything not negative goes.

In addition to that, I am hoping Aerotransport can give users of Airliners.net (including our photographers) access to parts of their database without any daily limit. I am looking into that right now.

Thanks,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 103):
I will from here on require that at least the name of the photographer is present when linking to Airliners.net with thumbnail and not using the Javascript code described here:



Quoting Administrator (Reply 103):
The good thing about those links is that where ever they are used on the web, I can instantly change their appearance. Should our database servers be able to handle the load in the future, I can easily add the name of the photographer and other info. Such changes would appear instantly where ever the links are used.



Quoting Administrator (Reply 103):
In addition to that, I am hoping Aerotransport can give users of Airliners.net (including our photographers) access to parts of their database without any daily limit. I am looking into that right now

Sounds good to me Johan, thanks for the work you have put in.
I'm happy with that.

Take care

Fergul  Smile
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:58 pm

Quoting Administrator (Reply 103):
I will from here on require that at least the name of the photographer is present when linking to Airliners.net

I hope that goes for the AirNav tracking software as well then?

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 101):
would you allow the use of the thumbnails if there was no mention of airliners.net ?

On both aerotransport.org and AirNav there was all the time an airliners.net tag. It seems that was more important.

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 91):
This is still a service that he charges for, using our images.
What deal have you made there?

You still haven't answered this.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:34 pm

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 86):
Point is that 1) He is not in the US, but in France, so the american copyright laws do not apply here, and 2) go to https://www.airliners.net/usephotos/, and see what the proper way to go about using a.net photos is. He is NOT doing that, and hence, he is not giving appropriate recognition, making what he is doing illegal! Simple! I'm still eagerly awaiting what Johan has to say about all of this!

You obviously have no idea about international conventions relating to copyright law?

Try reading the Berne Convention, then come back and talk

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/index.html

Quoting Digital-cavu (Reply 102):

I've reviewed how the thumbs are now being displayed - now that enough people have complained - and agree with the credit the photographer is being given. So as far as that is concerned, the problem is corrected.

What rubbish. The way the thumbnails were being displayed was correct. It was legal. He was doing nothing wrong. Even Johan knows this. What happened here is the mob mentality which didn't have a clue about the subject bitching and moaning without any substance to back them up.

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 91):
This is still a service that he charges for, using our images.
What deal have you made there?

No deal has to be done. He is not charging for access to your images. He is charging to access to information (which I am sure you didn't provide). He is only using thumbnails, and if you would care to read the Berne Convention and
http://www.eff.org/IP/Linking/Kelly_...ft/20030707_9th_revised_ruling.pdf you will plainly see no deal has to be done. You are trying to make out that copyright law is a simple thing. There is a reason why copyright and patent law lawyers are amongst the most highly paid.
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:42 pm

Quoting Russophile (Reply 106):
You obviously have no idea about international conventions relating to copyright law?

Try reading the Berne Convention, then come back and talk

First off, you have no right to start talking to me this way. I have not treated you with any disrespect, and I demand the same from you. Perhaps then we can keep talking...  talktothehand 

Quoting Russophile (Reply 106):
What rubbish. The way the thumbnails were being displayed was correct. It was legal. He was doing nothing wrong. Even Johan knows this. What happened here is the mob mentality which didn't have a clue about the subject bitching and moaning without any substance to back them up.

Again, who do you think you are to talk to us this way? As far as I understand, you do not even have any photos involved, so I am curious as to why you are the one "bitching and moaning" about us.


Learn some respect... no 
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
Tommy Mogren
Posts: 899
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:30 pm

Russophile,

I agree with LHSebi here.

If you have information that is relevant to this particular case, please
show us, inform us. But don't complain about our "bitching and moaning" by bitching and moaning yourself...

Quoting Russophile (Reply 106):
Even Johan knows this. What happened here is the mob mentality which didn't have a clue about the subject bitching and moaning without any substance to back them up.

Well, If Johan had a clue he could have said so in a very early stage of this discussion. Ending the "Mob mentality", as you so elegantly put it.
His silence shows he was/is not fully informed about every corner and turn in the copyright law.
You make it look as you are...

Quoting Russophile (Reply 106):
The way the thumbnails were being displayed was correct

No, not according to Johan's own rules....

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:29 pm

My gripe is not so much a concern of what some acid dropping word pooping court on the other side of the world might think of this, but rather a matter of principal.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:32 pm

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 109):
My gripe is not so much a concern of what some acid dropping word pooping court on the other side of the world might think of this, but rather a matter of principal.

/JM

 rotfl 

Well put! I agree with you (again) on this one! I don't see why Russo keeps posting the same link to some other court case in different circumstances...

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 107):
First off, you have no right to start talking to me this way. I have not treated you with any disrespect, and I demand the same from you. Perhaps then we can keep talking...

And where is the respect for the person you have basically called (without justification) a thief?

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 107):
Again, who do you think you are to talk to us this way? As far as I understand, you do not even have any photos involved, so I am curious as to why you are the one "bitching and moaning" about us.

Whether I have photos involved or not is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. And yes, people on this thread have bitched and whined about the subject at hand. And it is nothing but emotional claptrap on their part.

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 108):
If you have information that is relevant to this particular case, please show us, inform us.

Tommy, this has already been done by myself. Go back and read my previous posts you will see that everything you have said is actually a non-issue. I am not here to educate you -- I have provided the information resources to you, it is your job to educate yourself.

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 108):
His silence shows he was/is not fully informed about every corner and turn in the copyright law.
You make it look as you are...

I think Johan knows what is what when it comes to copyright law. And I don't proclaim that I am an expert. My 1 year of university level copyright law studies isn't going to do this, but it does give me the grounding to know what is what, and how to investigate it further.

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 109):
My gripe is not so much a concern of what some acid dropping word pooping court on the other side of the world might think of this, but rather a matter of principal.



Quoting LHSebi (Reply 110):
Well put! I agree with you (again) on this one! I don't see why Russo keeps posting the same link to some other court case in different circumstances...

Two quotes which I love:

"When a fellow says it isn't the money but the principle of the thing, it's the money."

"Principles become modified in practice by facts."

In this day and age of international conventions and international laws, a court decision in a country 10,000km away can have an impact on countries 15,000km away. A prime example is the libel suit brought by Australian businessman Joseph Gutnick in Australian courts against the Dow Jones company over an article which was published on the internet in the United State.

Anyway, what exactly do you want Johan to do?

Hit them up for a squillion dollars which will then give you all a (unlikely and unearned) financial windfall?

Why did I post the link to Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation? True, it was an American case. But it is likely that if any of you were to sue, that the respondent could argue that he has done nothing wrong, and could waffle on about Kelly v. Arriba Soft and the Berne Convention yadda yadda yadda, and you will be left with a debt when the case is thrown out.

Emotions don't have a place when it comes to legal issues and business. All I am doing is taking the level headed approach. It's not that hard to do.
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:47 pm

Quoting Russophile (Reply 111):
Anyway, what exactly do you want Johan to do?

I want Johan to be open about it. If he makes some sort of deal about someone using our shots there is no place for secrecy.
In both cases (aerotransport.org and AirNav) there was a clear Airliners.net tag. Johan was obviusly satisfied with that. No mention of who the photographer was. That was not important?

To avoid that problem I started this thread: New Design Suggestion (by Jan Mogren Mar 13 2005 in Site Related)

Johan dissed it.
Giving the photographer some credit wasn't important enough?

In this thread: Aerotransport.org's Use Of The Entire A.net DBase (by Saxdiva Mar 6 2005 in Site Related)

Johan says he had known about it for 2 weeks already and still about 2 months later has not felt he needed to tell the photographers anything about what has been agreed upon...

Basicly; what one agrees to when uploading to airliners.net is that Johan has the right to host your photo on airliners.net for people to view, nothing else.
Nothing about him agreeing untold stuff concerning ones images with other operators anywhere.

In the links you supply there is mention of "purpose" concerning publication.
Johan has never answered questions about the purpose of a.net either.

Can't see what all the secrecy is about.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
sulman
Posts: 1966
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:48 pm

Russ

Your point would be better made if you weren't so bloody pompous about it. Whilst I don't doubt you're going to continue on to a high flying legal career and be nice and condascending to all around you, you don't have to practice quite yet.


James

[Edited 2005-04-22 16:58:14]
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting Sulman (Reply 113):
bloody pompous

I am?

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 pm

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 114):
I am?

/JM

He must have been referring to Russo, since the two of you posted 30 seconds apart  Wink.
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:56 pm

Linking like this would be a great way to get good contents if/when someone else decides to start another brand-x website.

Staffan
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:27 am

Sorry to interrupt the argument between a few certain people but what do his counterparts feel about it? If JP and PP photographers have no issue with just the site being linked to the main site then what's our argument. If you think about it Johan can do whatever he wants to do. If he wants to allow someone to link your photos to another site then he'll do so. Now if he's selling them to another site, which he's not, then that's a whole different issue. If you guys disagree as strong as you do then take your photos else where. If you think about it you're giving him the stuff to give to other sites so before you go crawling up his arse realize that he's doing what he's allowed to and that in the end its only another click for you.

From a internet surfers point of view; if you are looking on a site and then get linked to the worlds largest aviation website you are bound to get lost in all that the site has to offer. I don't know Johan's exact intentions but it can only benefit the site and its photographers. If someone clicks the link, likes the shot, they are able to cross search the photographer, airline, etc. that will open that person to all the other photographers. I support Johan the entire way on this one. Now none of my photos are involved, or at least I don't think they are, but if I were to find that it was I would have no issues whatsoever with the use of it on this site. Now having to come across the use of the photo's in this manner is disputable but overall I think the intentions are good.

Sorry if that upsets a few of you guys and I can understand why you are as frustrated as you are.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 117):
If JP and PP photographers have no issue with just the site being linked to the main site then what's our argument

What their photographers' views are on this issue has absolutely nothing to do with our viewpoint. Those are two sites, and we are different one. What those guys think is their business. Here, we are discussing the linking through a.net.

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 117):
f you think about it Johan can do whatever he wants to do. If he wants to allow someone to link your photos to another site then he'll do so.

Sure, he could do what he wants. However, remember what is going on here. This has been discussed thoroughly before with reference to some ladies, but the point is the same: The site is nothing without the photographers. If the photographers that upload here feel that with Johan's rules they are getting "ripped off" because they are not getting enough credit, then in the extreme case they will leave. We all know what would happen here if the photographers would all leave, and upload somewhere else...

Again, he is free to do as he wishes, but as Jan already said, it's turned into:

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 109):
a matter of principal.

Obviously many photographers are not agreeing with the way that photos were allowed to be linked from before (without recognition in thumbnail form), and Johan agreed to change it. We are one step further!

I suggest you read the thread that Jan posted to the site related forum about an updated format of the links.

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:52 am

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 118):
We all know what would happen here if the photographers would all leave, and upload somewhere else...

We also know that very few sites can provide the system that Johan has set up for us all. That few sites will be as critical as the screeners on this site. I just don't understand that the huge argument is with free plabisity to both your shots and those shots of other a.net photographers...

He's technically making all your photos viewable to those that fequent the site...

Sebastian,

I think you have handled this topic well and I really do support your views as well. I hope there are no hard feelings and that eventually this matter is worked down to a level that both the A.net Crew, Johan, and us photographers can agree with.


Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:58 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 119):
I just don't understand that the huge argument is with free plabisity to both your shots and those shots of other a.net photographers...

The argument is, that the guy's original code was not the one that Johan had specified people could use to link photos to their site. Additionally, there was no common courtsey from this guy to ask permission from photographers to use our photos. (no, I don't mean emailing each of us, but he could have posted in the forum or something)

I don't know if you visited the site before, but next to the thumbnails, there was NO name of the photorapher posted...hence, no recognition given! For people that try their best to get good photos, and spend a lot of time on them, or even make a living out of photographing, this is a big deal.
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:05 am

From:
https://www.airliners.net/faq/#1

Our photos are regularly used (with permission of course) on various TV channels like CNN, BBC, ABC News, Discovery channel etc. So if your photos are good, you might earn some cash and recognition.

Well, as long as the the viewer has come to see the shots at airliners.net
the photographer gets recognition. If they see it on AirNav for example, no such luck. Only Airliners.net gets it.

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 117):
you're giving him the stuff to give to other sites

No. That is not why I upload here.  Confused

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:27 am

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 121):
No. That is not why I upload here.

I know, I'm sorry I should have restated that. When you upload, as we all know, you agree to the terms and some of them being that he can allow others to use them with his permission. Of course there are various reasons for uploading here. For me I upload here to show off what I am capable of, get help from others who see my work, and just let others enjoy it/comment on it.

Quoting LHSebi (Reply 120):
The argument is, that the guy's original code was not the one that Johan had specified people could use to link photos to their site. Additionally, there was no common courtsey from this guy to ask permission from photographers to use our photos. (no, I don't mean emailing each of us, but he could have posted in the forum or something)

I don't know if you visited the site before, but next to the thumbnails, there was NO name of the photorapher posted...hence, no recognition given! For people that try their best to get good photos, and spend a lot of time on them, or even make a living out of photographing, this is a big deal.

First off I think it was Johan's error in not posting a message to the photographers that the DB would be used on the site.

Now having looked at the site it does state the photographers name, the source, and the location of the photos.

Sorry if I made it seem like those were your only intentions for uploading here.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:36 am

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ua777222/Picture-4.jpg

Does this now solve everyone's issues or is the fact that it was done in the first place still a problem?

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 123):
Does this now solve everyone's issues or is the fact that it was done in the first place still a problem?



Quoting LHSebi (Reply 120):
The argument is, that the guy's original code was not the one that Johan had specified people could use to link photos to their site....I don't know if you visited the site before, but next to the thumbnails, there was NO name of the photorapher posted...hence, no recognition given!
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
Tommy Mogren
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:30 pm

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:30 pm

Quoting Russophile (Reply 111):
I think Johan knows what is what when it comes to copyright law

I'd say he doesn't.

Quoting Russophile (Reply 111):
Anyway, what exactly do you want Johan to do?

I want him to keep us informed. We (the photographers) provide our photos for him to use on his site. Without them, he would have nothing.
So, If he makes a deal, then include us in the discussion. Don't shut us out for weeks, only providing little information when the shit hits the fan here in the forum.
And I also want him to be as careful about including the photographers name as he is with the inclusion of the text "airliners.net".

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 123):
Does this now solve everyone's issues or is the fact that it was done in the first place still a problem?

Thanks to our intense objections in these forums, and our own active work towards the site owner we managed to get our names on that site.

It just makes me think, how many other sites are there with Johan's permission to use our photos without showing the photographers name, only the text "airliners.net" ??

We recently became aware of the AirNav software.
How many more are there ?

Quoting Administrator (Reply 103):
He is not selling access to your photos, they are all freely available on Airliners.net. He is just using links to your photos, some of those links can not be accessed by everyone.

There is also one more difference.... It seems he is hosting the thumbnails on HIS server. THAT makes it different.

We all agree that linking is good, as long as the photographers name is shown and it links to the photo here on Airliners.net. That way the site gets publicity and the photographer does too.

No one has agreed to let him host my thumbnails on his server!
Or, Johan, have you ?



Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
satx
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:26 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 04, 2005 6:48 am

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 125):
Or, Johan, have you ?

I, for one, am still curious to hear more from the folks at the top. Anybody else?
A300 319 320 321 332 333 388 B727 732 733 735 737 738 739 742 743 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 773 77W 788 789 C200 700 900 DHC2 DC9 E145 170 175 190 F100 MD81 82 83 87 88 90 | 38 Lines 44 Craft 58 Ports
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 04, 2005 12:16 pm

Yeah, I saw a couple of my photos on there, and it ticks me off. I would be fine with it if access was free for those who have photos on the site. However Im not going to pay 635 euros to a site that uses my pictures.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
lyzzard
Posts: 401
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:48 am

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Fri May 06, 2005 9:25 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 126):
 
digital-cavu
Topic Author
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:11 pm

RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat May 14, 2005 11:24 pm

Well, while down at ATL taking pictures and doing some work for Pratt & Whitney, I received an email from the "Cajun Hustler." Just the name makes me laugh, but that's not the point. It seems we have upset this gentleman with our tirades concerning the use of our photographs, and now he and his contemporaries are not going to come to A.net anymore! That will certainly teach all of us a valuable lesson - that being: never stand up and be counted when you find out you are being taken advantage of.

It seems the $5 fee to become a member here is a bit too much, so the Hustler has suggested I post his email here. If for no other reason, I will just to highlight is horrific writing, spelling, and punctuation skills.

Here's the email:

"You guys are too quick to jump to conclusions.
Settle down and act like the friggen squid that you are,not like a Liberal childish moron.
Know the facts before jumping to conclusions.
And you can post this in the A.net forum if you like.

Dear A.net Forum members,
After reading your many inflamatory posts, we the Flight Sim as a majority are boycotting A.net.
We in no way shape or form use any photos for money making purposes.
We are avis aviation enthusiests as you are,many of us are indeed real world pilots,many are student pilots,and many are just enjoying a hobby.
There are many among us who range from pilots to lawyers,to students,to public elected officals,to active military personel.
Dont bash us for enjoying your photos and making a signature image out of it,that causes no harm.
I could see if we were hosting your photos and charging money for people to view them.But we dont.
I am a texture artist for Microsofts Flight Simulator freeware add-ons and I use many of your photos for reference in getting the livery as accurate as the visual model will allow.
That is the extent of my use of those photos and most all are deleted,except for a few that grace my desktop as a wall paper image on occasion.
And I usually do ask for permission to use the photos as a reference,even though no photo gets uploaded anywhere.
But the point is,a few of you with a wild hair like to get trouble started because you have nothing better to do.
So its like this...those few who moan,whine and complain are going to ruin it for everybody,and should that happen..welll.....none of us will like the end result.
So grow up and take your photos while we still have that right in this country,since so many other rights are being taken away from us.

Anyone wants to discuss this further with me..you can contact me on yahoo messenger under the screen name CAJUN_HUSTLER

cheers,
Joe DeGregorio
http://www.dal544.pcofla.net
MSFS Master Texture Artist"
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sun May 15, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Digital-cavu (Reply 129):
Anyone wants to discuss this further with me..you can contact me on yahoo messenger under the screen name CAJUN_HUSTLER

VERY Amusing.... No such nick

[Edited 2005-05-14 23:29:22]
This space intentionally left blank
 
gdewey
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sun May 15, 2005 7:26 am

http://www.wwap.net/double_aa_2.jpg

I still think it's amusing that my picture is on there twice. Not sure what I think of the whole concept though.

btw, my 1st post  Smile
Canon 10D, Canon 70-200 f/4, Canon 28-105mm USM
 
digital-cavu
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sun May 15, 2005 10:18 pm

I visited this guy's website this morning. As promised, he posted a comment on the "News" page, asking that all who read his post boycott A.net. So, he is as good as his word. Then I scrolled down to the bottom of the same page, and right there is a link to the A.net "Test Your Aircraft Recognition" quiz. So either he doesn't pay attention or he is a conflicted soul. Either way, it makes him look ridiculous.

I also read on his site that this person is disabled, which made me start to feel bad about the sarcastic tone of my last post. Then I remembered he was the one who emailed me to suggest I stop acting like a liberal childish moron...so I stopped feeling bad.

The aircraft recognition quiz is fun though. Check it out at: https://www.airliners.net/quiz/

Regards,

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Tue May 24, 2005 3:22 pm

I don't care if flight sim people leave. Stop using our photos without permission and everybody will be happy.
I simple question and permission will be given. Problem solved.


But it's a bit different when Johan suddenly approves use of our photos and thumbnails, uses that go outside his already written rules on the site.
Without any conversation with the photographers.
Without any questions to the photographers.

Quoting SATX (Reply 126):
I, for one, am still curious to hear more from the folks at the top. Anybody else?

Oh, yes.


Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
digital-cavu
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 25, 2005 12:58 am

Tommy, you're right. Of the 20 times, or so, that I have been approached and asked for photo usage permission, I have only asked for compensation once. A company wanted to print the photo, so I asked for the standard fee and credit. All others, many of which are commercial in nature, including one company that makes miniature lights for Sikorsky helicopters, and another that is using a photo in a video intended for employees, I gave permission.

Step 1: Ask for permission.
Step 2: Get (more than likely) permission.
Step 3: Use photo and avoid mean spirited conversations where your name and organization are openly referred to as pirates and inconsiderate.

Seems simple enough to me.

Regards,

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 25, 2005 5:31 am

I love how a bunch of them are threatening to call the police on us and say that we are a security threat.

http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.p...d=6ee2faf2a5dbac9513fd801724ae41c1
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 25, 2005 4:01 pm

It's sad to see how suddenly this turned into a a.net vs Flight sim thing.
We all share the same interest, just approach it in different ways.

It's the same whoever wants to use a photo. Ask, and the photographer will most likely be very positive towards the request.

For commercial clients, we (at least myself) naturally charge a fee for the usage.
for private/non-commercial use, I have yet never charged anything.

But if you don't ask.... that's theft!



Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
digital-cavu
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Wed May 25, 2005 9:29 pm

I read the entire thread that APFPilot1985 pointed to. They seem like very reasonable people to me. They're upset because someone here generalized their community as nerds, and they rightfully reacted to those comments. By and large their comments have mirrored this thread, in that they agree permission should be obtained before using the photo. As most folks routinely point out, permission is routinely given for non-commercial use, and that is good and proper.

An image taken without permission is stealing. There's no two ways about it. Even if it won't stand up in a court of law, it is still theft. So whether it's the flight sim community, or the guy near Denver running an ash spreading service, or the Aeropost site which originally got my attention...it is wrong, both legally and morally, to take what is not yours. None, or at least very few, of us will ever get rich off of taking pictures of airplanes. The Vasco's of the world might...but the rest of us will settle for a few kind words and the satisfaction of knowing that someone thought enough of our picture to ask permission to use it. And that's really all we've been asking for.

Tommy, your question regarding the wholesale use of the database by Aeropost and the deal struck with them is still unanswered. What to do...what to do!

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:45 am

Del,

Tommy, your question regarding the wholesale use of the database by Aeropost and the deal struck with them is still unanswered. What to do...what to do!

I don't know.
It's sad to see that the A.net crew is too busy to respond.
Because I'd like to believe that they are not ignoring it for obvious reasons.
That would be a scandal.

Let's hope Johan finds this thread again and have the time to post an honest reply in due time.


Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
digital-cavu
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:23 pm

Tommy!

I love you, man, for not letting this die a slow death in the deep dark regions of Page 2 and beyond.

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
BDLGUY
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:33 pm

Some website has a copyright protections. For example, if you click "Save Picture As" on the photos. The window message would pop-up which said, "UNAUTHORIZED USE IS PROHIBITED!!" then click "OK". That's means the website won't let you to save their copyrights photos.

What do you think? As for me, I think it is a good idea!!  Smile

Cheers!
John Perrotta/BDL
John A. Perrotta (KBDL/BDL) - Canon 300D/400D & EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting BDLGUY (Reply 140):
What do you think?

Hi John,

Well, I agree. It is a good deal. Easy to disable unfortunately, as you can read in this thread: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft (by AKE0404AR Jun 2 2005 in Aviation Photography)

Like I say in that thread: YES, it's one more step to go through if somebody wants to steal our images.

Quoting BDLGUY (Reply 140):
Some website has a copyright protections.

Yes, some websites do.
Unfortunately, as you can see from the lack of responses from A.Net in these particular threads, the photographer's rights is obviously not important.

Threads like this: New Design Suggestion (by Jan Mogren Mar 13 2005 in Site Related)
is more or less ignored. A lot of photographers find it to be a great idea.
A suggestion that would have stopped a serious copyright violation like this: Air Taxi Net (by Airportugal May 31 2005 in Aviation Photography)

I'm glad that you think we should have some protection. We really, really should.

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
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JeffM
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:47 am

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 141):
Unfortunately, as you can see from the lack of responses from A.Net in these particular threads, the photographer's rights is obviously not important.

Looks like he already has alredy responded. ..........from your link....

Quoting Administrator:

I will comment when time permits Tommy. It's slightly irritating that you always seem to demand instant attation from whenever there's something you consider important.
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:15 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 142):
Looks like he already has alredy responded.

True, but that was March 16. Not a word since that in that thread, and many new things have come up since that....




Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
gothamspotter
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:57 am

-- You guys act like A.net ISN'T making money off of your pictures? But you're upset that this guy linking to your photos IS (even though he really isn't). $5 a month x a couple thousand forum members + advertising revenue - bandwidth costs = a tidy profit being made in large part from your photos.

-- Those of you upset about the thumbnails...no one interested in a particular aircraft is going to be satisfied with a 200x133 thumbnail...they're going to click it and see your large, detailed, a.net hosted photo.

-- As a photographer looking to make money from the sale of photos, why would you object to a site that drives more traffic to your photos? More traffic = more potential customers.
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:47 am

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 144):
= a tidy profit being made in large part from your photos.

Yes, no doubt that Johan is making money.

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 144):
Those of you upset about the thumbnails

Upset by deal made behind our backs.

Also, taxi.net was all 200x133

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:49 am

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 145):

Upset by deal made behind our backs.

As far as I am aware, there were no deals being made behind 'your' back.
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:32 am

Quoting Airplanepics (Reply 146):
As far as I am aware

Aware being the key word.

Again, why the secrecy? Aerotransport and AirNav just happened without a single word from Johan...

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
administrator
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RE: Another Illegal Use Of Photos From A.net

Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:38 am

Guys,

Quoting Administrator (Reply 98):

Please read reply #98 in this thread. He is basically linking to the photos in the same way as described here:
https://www.airliners.net/ownsearch/

I have nothing to add to what I have already said, he is within the guidelines for linking to Airliners.net photos.

We are considering putting links to that site from our search engine but that has nothing to do with this issue. It is very uncertain whether we're going to do that or not.

Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 145):
Yes, no doubt that Johan is making money.

Upset by deal made behind our backs.

That's just lame. If you and other photographers do not like the linking rules as described at https://www.airliners.net/ownsearch/ you can either have your photos removed from Airliners.net or discuss it in a civilized manner and refrain from posting lies and slander.

My understanding is that most photographers agree with my point of view - that such links are a good thing. If it turns out I am wrong, I am willing to make changes in the future. But for now, this thread is archived.

Regards,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)

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