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Stealthz
Topic Author
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Understanding Baddouble?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:46 am

Hi,
Firstly I don't intend to start any flame wars nor do I intend to criticise or embarass the photographers of these photos.
My only motive in this post is to gain a better understanding of the criteria used in judging what should or shouldn't be in the DB, in particular Baddouble rejections.

https://www.airliners.net/open.file/622847/M/

https://www.airliners.net/open.file/622791/M/

https://www.airliners.net/open.file/622686/M/

Whilst I understand that these photos were the first on the DB of a brandnew plane, they are near identical and appear to be taken at the same time by photographers at the same spot.
Would that normally qualify as Baddouble?

Regards

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:17 am

Actually I would feel safe saying that there is a large chance that these shots were all taken at a different time. Number one looks lighter and if you look behind the tail there are those buildings. Number two looks way lighter and no buildings. Number three is the darkest of the three and also no buildings. Still these reasons won't get you out of a baddouble.

First off a baddouble mainly applys to a single photographer. The issue with a baddouble is if it is say one a/c, same day, same airport, same angle by the same photographer. So lets say there's a 777 at SFO. I catch it side on at 3 different stages of taxi. It's my understanding that one will be accepted and the other two rejected for baddouble.

You can't deprive a photographer of an a.net quality shot b/c another photographer took the same shot be it the same day or the year after.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Psych
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:28 pm

Chris,

I think Matt has it right there. This is an issue that has troubled me too.

For me the key is that the photos are taken by the SAME photographer, of the same plane on the same day from the same spot. However, despite knowing this I have still fallen foul of a bad double rejection.

It does not feel appropriate to post examples of others' work, but I have seen a few examples of planes recently (nothing out of the ordinary with them, either) where 2 shots of the same plane by the same guy have been accepted - I assume because the screener (and the photographer) deemed them to be sufficiently different. Now I don't have a problem with this - a good example I can think of was a photo of the plane rotating and then another one of the plane when at about 100 feet flying off - so a side on shot followed by a shot 'from the back'. Another example I can think of was a close up of a plane nose on, followed by one more side on zoomed out somewhat.

So the rule does not appear to be applied rigidly - the problem then is understanding what is deemed to be a sufficiently different angle of view/motive.

I can give an example from my own work. I had already got this photo accepted:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Markman



Subsequently I edited this photo below and convinced myself that, though I hadn't moved, the plane itself was being taken at a different angle, with a different motive. I also think the lighting had changed and was a major asset to the second photo - different from the first. However, the screener disagreed and rejected it for bad double:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/rejections/big/A7ACD1601b.jpg

So my conclusion is that there is some latitude in this rule but that it can sometimes be difficult to be sure how a screener will interpret what is 'sufficiently different'. In this case clearly they disagreed with me. There are cases where I have disagreed with them with others' shots, that had encouraged me to believe I was not out of order uploading the shot above and that it would stand a good chance. But the bottom line is they are the screeners and I am not.

I hope this is of some interest to you.

All the best.

Paul
 
fergulmcc
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:03 pm

Chris

I see your point, but be carefull about pluging other photographers work to make it. Big grin

Paul and Matt have outlined the baddouble so these would not fall in that catergory, but would fall in the bad common if at all.

The three shots were taken on the same day and most likely uploaded the same day too. A screener may not have seen the other one or two in the queue when accepting the photo. When one got in the another screener may have alowed the second one in as there was only one photo of the a/c in the DB and so on to the third. Remember a new a/c to the DB the chances are very high of it being accepted. There is a total of 4 photos of this a/c in the DB and yes they are all very similar but by different photographers. If there was a multiple number of photos in the DB of this a/c then, yes, the badcommon rule would apply!

Take care

Fergul Big grin
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Tin67
Posts: 268
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:38 pm

I'd like baddouble explained too!!

I've just had 2 photos of the same aircraft rejected for baddouble. Okay I here you say, but explain this:

It's a new Virgin A346, G-VNAP there's only 5 shots on the database so it's not exactly common, I've not photographed it before so how the "F" can this be baddouble.

There's a near identical shot on the db now so what is the point of uploading mine again?

 mad 
Martin
 
TZ
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:56 am

baddouble cannot apply to different photographers, EVER! When considering the baddouble criteria we are comparing your image with others taken by you in the database AND in the queue.

Thus the scenario could emerge whereby you will get a baddouble rejection when you do not have any images of the a/c in the database yet. That would be because we believe you have another in the queue which is substantially the same. That other image may later get rejected (for other reasons). The best way to avoid that anomoly is to upload only your BEST shot. If you have another which you really believe is different, then perhaps upload that later. If you upload two almost the same, then we have to pick the better one and we don't like that - that's the photographer's perogative.

As for the original examples, none are baddouble because they are all by different photographers. Eventually that angle may become so prevalent that badcommon could come into play. Typically no aircraft starts to be affected by badcommon until 80-100 images of it exist in the database. I'm sure Qantas will move that aircraft from that patch of tarmac before we get that many shots of it!

Some people may argue that the database doesn't need multiple pictures from the exact same angle (by different photographers) but others (us, for example!) argue that it would not be fair to only allow one person to upload a particular angle. Slide or print photographers, for instance, will take longer to upload theirs than DSLR shooters. Everybody should have their chance. Examples such as this Qantas (and the famous Air Force Airbus) are not that frequent anyhow.

The examples Paul quoted in his text and those of his own look like baddouble to me - substantially the same shots. However, there may be mitigating circumstances for the ones he describes... if the subject is old, or there is an interesting detail to be seen, etc then two shots from the same shooting location on the same day may be acceptable.

If in doubt, you are at liberty to upload and get a feel for the rule. However, I urge you to chose your best image first, then maybe try the others later. That's best.

Did that help anybody?  Smile

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
Psych
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:01 am

Yep Tamsin - your input is informative and clearly articulated as ever.

I completely respect your position over my photos. But I am itching to show a couple of examples I can think of where 2 photos have been accepted that I would argue are no more different than my 2 - in fact less so. (I still feel the lighting in my 2 was a worthy significant difference, if nothing else. They were also uploaded some days apart, by the way). But I don't think it would be correct to do so without the photographers' permission. I guess we have to accept that the decision about photos being substantially different is, like many other aspects of the screeners' job, a subjective judgement.

All the best.

Paul

[Edited 2005-03-25 00:08:52]
 
TZ
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:40 am

Paul... Thanks! Feel free to send me an email via my profile if you'd like to discuss those examples away from the public eye.

As a general statement (not directed to Paul) it should be said that we do make mistakes. If an image is rejected and you think we made a mistake then the appeal function allows a second-chance to examine whether a mistake was made or not. If an image is added by mistake, then such a process is not available. We do examine the database from time to time and thrift out some glaring mistakes but despite that process the database undoubtedly contains a few baddoubles which should not be there.

We strive really hard to reduce mistakes to a minimum by hiring the best people, rigourous experience before qualifying, three screeners needed before an image is accepted, etc. However catching doubles, expecially when there are seperately uploaded in the queue, is not the most straightforward task.

It is rather a subjective criteria and I struggle to provide a definitive answer regarding what is or is not baddouble in a few sentences. By the time one has screened a few thousand images one gets a good feel for where Johan wants the line drawn, but it is hard to explain in words.

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
Stealthz
Topic Author
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:04 am

Thanks to all for your comments and assistance.

Tamsin, your explanation has clarified the situation especcially well.

At least the 3 pics I hilighted are unlikely to become BADCOMMON  Smile C-GZPQ is now VH-TQL and happily plying regional routes in Australia.

Once again thanks all

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
Psych
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:38 pm

Tamsin,

Thanks for those helpful remarks.

I have sent you an email - let me know if you get it.

All the best.

Paul
 
malandan
Posts: 373
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:31 pm

I have just had a small batch of baddouble rejections and am therefore very interested in this post.
On the question of near identical photos from different photographers, I fully agree with the rules.
However in the case of photos from the same photographer, I am less certain that there is an even playing field. Here, for example are two from my recent rejections.

MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Malcolm Clarke
MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Malcolm Clarke


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Malcolm Clarke
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Malcolm Clarke


(Unfortunately, the system for some reason seems reluctant to allow me to include others!)
Same aircraft in each case, same occasion, but clearly different views, which I contend would be of interest to others.
The photos were not uploaded at the same time, in one instance there was a gap of many months. One has only 1 photo in the database, mine, and the other 2 photos. I think the decisions were a bit harsh.
I have absolutely no criticism of screeners, some of whom have been most helpful to me in the past, and who should remain free to interpret rules as they seem fit.
My motive is simply to provide examples for others to view, and maybe to gain a clearer understanding.
Malcolm.
My interest lies in the future as I am going to spend the rest of my life there!
 
fergulmcc
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:25 pm

Malcolm  wave 

Have you had any feed bacxk on this issue, I'm just curious.

Fergul Big grin
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1647
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:05 pm

Malcolm
Tamsin has explained it very well and I think that your rejections fit precisely into what she described. If you had photographed the cockpit, say, you could have got two on.
It can be done but the photos have to be substantially different as I think two of mine of the same aircraft the same day show. It also fits what Tamsin said about detail. I commented to the screeners when I submitted the two and the comments with the photos had something to say.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick Bajcar
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mick Bajcar



Mick Bajcar
 
fl350
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:10 pm

Hello all,

So if I follow Tamsin:

Quoting Tamsin (Reply 5):
If you have another which you really believe is different, then perhaps upload that later. If you upload two almost the same, then we have to pick the better one and we don't like that - that's the photographer's perogative.

This shot:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fabrice Sanchez - Brussels Aviation Photography



And this one:
https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...s/big/BRU_VN-A143_772_16.03.05.jpg

Are almost the same...
There's only one shot in DB from this aircraft on touchdown, and the one accepted is IMHO not similar to the one rejected.
I appealed it and it was rejected, so I guess i can forget about it. But sure 'the almost similar' thing should be made more clear to us photogs.

Cheers

Fabrice
Fabrice Sanchez - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
KLGAviation
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:00 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:22 pm

Question:

When are two photos of the same reg NOT bad double?

When I'm looking at photos, I really have no reason to care if there is another shot by that photographer of the same reg... it's about the individual photo.

Chris
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 pm

Chris the link doesn't work for me

Fergul Big grin
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Woody001
Posts: 508
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:29 pm

It's not a link Fergul - it's just underlined.

 Smile

Ian.
If I could just get the afterburner working...
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:57 pm

No problem Chris, my misunderstanding.

Thanks

Fergul Big grin
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
malandan
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:09 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:51 am

Whilst I had read and clearly understood Tamsin's explanation, I'm afraid that on the basis of many examples already in the database, it doesn't hold water, and once again we have the situation of differing interpretations, which I have to confess leaves me feeling a tad cynical.
I chose the the two pictures of HA-LFZ deliberately as I still maintain they are in no way similar, showing the subject from a different angle and closer to the camera.
Again I must say that I am in no way critical of screeners on this subject, I particularly have reason to be grateful to them, but just lets be sure that everyone is treated the same. Inconsistancy can cause a great deal of frustration.
Malcolm.
My interest lies in the future as I am going to spend the rest of my life there!
 
Tin67
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:58 am

Here's another example, Mike has taken some excellent shots, but why are these not baddoubles. Same aircraft, same day, taken in sequence.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Moores
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Moores



I had 2 shots like this rejected for baddouble and I don't even have the aircraft on the database. Figure that one out!

Sorry to use yours as examples Mike as they are excellent shots, but I have just about had it with site.  white 
 
Psych
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:23 am

Martin,

As you know, I am very sorry to see how your view of the site has been detrimentally affected by recent issues. I know you also know how strongly I feel about the issue of the equitable application of site rules.

Whilst I think most of us accept that screeners are human and therefore will have differing viewpoints, make very subjective decisions and also make mistakes, the problem here with this topic area is the apparent clear misapplication of apparently clear rules. This really does have a negative impact on the feelings of those who experience themselves on the wrong side of such decisions. Also, as someone proud to have my photos on this site, I really don't want to see the site's reputation badly affected by these issues.

I do hope that others in positions of authority feel able to positively contribute to these discussions such that these matters can be appropriately addressed. Would it be so crazy to simply have a rule that you don't have more than one photo of the same plane taken at the same time, full stop. I recognise that may cramp our photographic style at times, but at least it would avoid the bad feeling that this topic appears to create with such ease.

Paul

P.S. Just wanted to add - I don't think that people are crying out for all subjectivity to be removed from the screeners' role; clearly that would not be possible, nor necessarily desirable. The issue for me is that photographers have a right to feel that they are operating on a level playing field. In this category of potential rejection the playing field is simply not level enough.

[Edited 2005-04-01 17:33:47]
 
malandan
Posts: 373
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:24 am

Please tell me this is a mistake!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johannes Ossenberg
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johannes Ossenberg

My interest lies in the future as I am going to spend the rest of my life there!
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1647
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:31 am

That has to be a mistake, it is the same photo on twice !
So much better than the new Lufthansa livery (and I can remember when it was NEW)
Mick Bajcar
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:42 am

I have always tried to be respectful and polite in the forum. I have slipped up now and then but I have always apologized for my wrong doing. I have also bitten my lip when I see cases of bad double and quality etc, as I believe that the screeners let it in for a reason that I might not know of and have tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have frowned upon people who post photos of other photographers work in the forum to make a point.

Well I can no longer hold back anymore, I am breaking every rule that I have put down for myself. I am now at bursting point on the inconsistencies that go on in A.net Yesterday I was trying to help a fellow photographer on a rejection that he received for bad camera angle. We both checked it out in PS and we both concluded that it didn’t need any rotation at all. Then today I spotted this was so far out that we are now all heading for some down hill water skiing at St Maarteen.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Dunetz


I mean it’s not like its only slightly out of say 0.2 or 0.1 deg or something ridiculous like that, like most us get, its out by 1.5 deg!! Going by the horizon. Not the women and the aircraft!

Hats off to you Paul, diplomatic as always!  bigthumbsup 

So do your worst, archive this thread or delete it, ban me if you want, and while you're at it, reject the photos in my queue!

Fergul  mad 

 duck 
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Psych
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:17 am

No archiving - no banning please.

The Photography Forum can be such a positive and enjoyable environment, and a place for people to help each other. Here is an opportunity for Crew and photographers (and let's face it, generally the Crew are photographers) to share some ideas about how to resolve this dilemma.

We can't and shouldn't get rid of subjectivity - but the rules (whatever they are) need to be clear and unambiguous, and applied equitably. Some of the rules will always be open to debate - is that motive good; does that photo have too much grain; is that too soft; is that oversharpened and so on. But other rules should be much easier - things like bad info and bad double come to mind.

Please let whoever it is who needs to review things do so openly and in such a way that ambiguities, and the potential for major differences in the interpretation of the rules, be minimised.

I know I am not always going to agree with the screeners - particularly when they have seen fit to reject one of my photos - but I need to believe that it's not going to make that much difference which screener looks at my images in the queue. A situation where one screener will accept 2 photos of the same plane looking a bit different, or from a slightly different angle, and another applying the rule as described earlier by Tamsin very literally, is simply asking for trouble - and rightly so.

Paul
 
TZ
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:24 am

Quoting Malandan (Reply 21):
Please tell me this is a mistake!

Your wish is granted - it was most definately a mistake, which is now rectified.

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:01 am

If thats a mistake then this is a wopper!!!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Dunetz



Might be the only one in the DB but surely we can get the horizon right! 2deg out. Its not like that this is rare footage or anything.

Fergul
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
southpaw8669
Posts: 146
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:21 am

now your starting to piss me off.


Just give it up all ready.
@southpawcapture
 
malandan
Posts: 373
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:45 am

Quoting Southpaw8669 (Reply 27):
now your starting to piss me off.

No, fair do's. Fergul has a point!
What is the first action many of us take when preparing an upload?
Yes, we level!
Sorry but my cynicism is starting to show again. Surely this should be taken for granted! Screeners should have a modus operandae just as we uploaders try to have.
But once again, I'm far from being a "screener basher", but let us at least put these errors right retrospectively, and nobody should be criticised for pointing them out. We should all strive for the same excellence across the site as we hopefully do in our own contributions.

Malcolm.
My interest lies in the future as I am going to spend the rest of my life there!
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:46 am

Southpaw8669
I think Fergul is making a valid point. The last photo that he refers to, the aircraft is a cracker, but how many of us could have got that onto the database. I merely glanced at the thumbnail and noticed that the levels are bad (unless the sea slopes for water skiing). I would have thought it was bad distance too.
There is no doubt that it is a rare aircraft where the standards are lower but a slope on the sea like that is inexcusable.
The first one Fergul uses, I have already commented how much I liked that photo in another thread...and I didn't notice the sea being out.
These photos are just damned good examples of the fallability of the screeners as are the Virgin 747 doubles. That is not a knock at them in any way shape or form, they are not super-human.
Next time you get a bad level or bad distance, remember these photos, particularly when the level is out by 0.1 or 0.2 degrees
Mick Bajcar
 
Psych
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RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:59 am

Okay - nice and relaxed everyone   , though I am a fine one to talk.

This is really the issue that we need to bottom, be it badlevel, baddouble or whatever. Photographers get really upset if they perceive themselves to have been the victim of a very harsh screening, and then fume at examples of what they see as the complete opposite happening to someone else's photo(s).

There must be some way that these issues can be amicably addressed and resolved appropriately and positively. I am really up for that.

Hopeful.

Paul

[Edited 2005-04-01 21:13:19]
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:10 am

Psych( Paul)
That seems to me to be precisely what is happening and no-one is knocking anyone It is a shame that other photographers have had to have their examples used this way, but how could it be done otherwise ?
Those that Fergul has used have had massive hits and others must have noticed the bad levels. As I said, I saw it from the thumbnail on one, not at all on the other.
No one has knocked the screeners, but the screening on these occasions.
It is almost that they were seduced by the sun sea and sand. If one screener can put an apparently non-contentious photo straight onto the database, perhaps that needs changing so that every photo is screened twice....though perhaps they already are.
Mick Bajcar
 
Psych
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:16 am

Mick - you posted just as I was editing my previous post. I was not happy with the wording I had used. I didn't feel it appropriately conveyed the point I was trying to make.

Paul
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:58 am

I am not bashing screeners nor am I bashing Eric. I have spoken to Eric via the e-mail and he's a very respectable chap.
Neither am I the victim of some recent bad rejections for bad level or bad double. I am truley sorry that I have used Eric's photos to make a point here, he is a dam good photographer, but there seems to be more mistakes than I have rejections and these are blatent ones. Like Mick said you can see the horizon is out on the thumb nail.

Questions have to be asked!

Take care

Fergul
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
TZ
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 9:21 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:04 am

How about somebody says something positive that we reacted quickly and appropriately with the first issue you pointed out?

Screeners are people too, sometimes we deserve our small errors publicly condemned but perhaps we also deserve some credit for admitting our mistakes and taking action to fix them?

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1878
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:08 am

Tamsin

I have more respect for someone who can come back and admit to a mistake. I think I have overshot the runway a bit here. Yes I do believe that we are all human and make mistakes, trust me I have made some fine ones in my time, but I have always owned up to them and apologized too.

Fergul

Edit: Yes you do deserve credit.

[Edited 2005-04-01 22:10:20]
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Psych
Posts: 3008
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Understanding Baddouble?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting Tamsin (Reply 34):
How about somebody says something positive that we reacted quickly and appropriately

I am very happy to say that I have had a very positive personal communication with an individual crew member, which makes me optimistic that these issues are and will be addressed appropriately.

I feel that this colleague, and you Tamsin, always provide fair and helpful responses here in this forum. I do also think that it will be an important 'PR' issue for the crew to tackle, and be seen to tackle, so that, as I said before, photographers feel reassured that the playing field is as level as it can be - whilst acknowledging human frailty.

Take care.

Paul

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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos