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ThierryD
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Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:31 am

I was lucky enough to be able to try out some (almost) nighttime A2A photography a week ago.
I gave the following shot a try though I was pretty certain it wouldn't withstand the screening:
https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...g/20070212_dai__INFLIGHT030207.jpg
I like the shot pretty much and if someone as some hints as to how to make it A.net acceptable I'd be glad to hear them.

Thanks!

Thierry

Oh, btw: rejected for blurry and grainy
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
dazbo5
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:43 am

Great shot but I don't think that one will be salvagable for this site. Looks like you had to beef up the ISO for the shutter speed but its still blurry. If you apply noise reduction, it'll just kill the quality.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
LIPH
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:45 am

Hy Thierry,
nice catch. For sure, not A.net material. Any attempt to improve it would cause a lack in details IMHO....

Ciao
Life sucks. Then you die. Live fast, die young.
 
Avsfan
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:33 am

Nice shot, but IMHO it is blurry and has too much graininess in it.
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth...Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
 
Fly747
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:14 am

There's nothing that can be done to save a blurry image. Nice catch, thanks for sharing Thierry.

Ivan
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:21 am

Great shot Thierry,

I agree with this one, maybe with a little work it might have a chance.

[Edited 2007-02-13 01:23:04]
 
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JeffM
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting ThierryD (Thread starter):
rejected for blurry and grainy

Rightly so.
 
bakersdozen
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:40 am

I love it... Would be a great promotional shot for LH theme wise. Setting sun on a nice plane.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:06 pm

Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 1):
If you apply noise reduction, it'll just kill the quality.

Maybe but maybe there's a way to reduce noise without loosing too much detail?

Quoting Fly747 (Reply 4):
There's nothing that can be done to save a blurry image.

I agree that it's slightly blurry but to begin with most A2A photos shot through thick airliner windshields are a little blurry just as on these accepted shots:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thierry Deutsch
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mariusz Siecinski


And given the fact that it was taken at late sunset with low shutter speed the sharpness of the shot is pretty good.

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 5):
I agree with this one, maybe with a little work it might have a chance.

What would you recommend Chad?

I'll give it a second try anyway but I know there are far better post-processors out there than I am so if anyone has a clue on how to make that photo A.net worthy let me know!  


And one question to the screeners: "Would the photo fall under rarity screening? As there aren't many 'dark' A2A shots in the db (~130 according my search and of those only a handful of airliners)"

Thierry

[Edited 2007-02-13 10:09:19]

[Edited 2007-02-13 10:09:48]
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
aviopic
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 8):
I know there are far better post-processors out there than I am so if anyone has a clue on how to make that photo A.net worthy let me know!

I don't consider myself to be far "better" then someone else but sometimes a set of different eyes does the trick.
So if you want me to have a go you know to find my mailbox Thierry.
Nice shot anyway.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
AirMalta
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:32 am

Lovely A340 Thierry!!

However I agree with comments above!!

Malcolm
 
flugnord
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:19 am

Here's my edit http://212.30.203.209/gitarsnilli/airliners/lufthansavel.jpg It's maybe not good enough but at least I tried.
 
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acontador
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:34 am

Hi Thierry,

Well, for sure I'm no screener, but your picture is definitely and very noticeably blurry. And if you want to compare it to the others you posted, they don't have the additional grain problem, plus yours is a side-on an thus the blurriness is very apparent. I personally wouldn't waste my time with it...
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting Acontador (Reply 12):
I personally wouldn't waste my time with it...

Andres, any idea how often one gets the opportunity of taking such a shot? Not quite like winning in the lottery but almost.
So for sure I'm gonna "waste" some more time trying to get a better result out of it and if it still doesn't make A.net in the end I'll however most probably have learnt some new post-processing techniques so it won't be badly invested time.  Wink

Quoting Flugnord (Reply 11):
Here's my edit

Thanks Þórður for your try however you didn't get rid of the most apparent issues, namely blurriness and graininess but nice edit anyway!

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
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acontador
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 13):
So for sure I'm gonna "waste" some more time trying to get a better result out of it and if it still doesn't make A.net in the end I'll however most probably have learnt some new post-processing techniques so it won't be badly invested time.

No problem, wish you all the luck possible, as for sure it would be a nice addition to A.net!
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:29 am

"Go ahead...make my day"
 
aviopic
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:56 am

Had a go with the original Thierry without any success.
Think there is just to much noise in the frame.
As far as I can see ISO 640 is a bit to much for the D200, not trying to be bold.

Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
mirage
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 15):
How's the new edit?

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/big/ready/dai__INFLIGHT030207z.jpg

Thierry

Sorry, forget it and keep trying. Since you made that guide to rejection reasons you should know what kind of images might have a chance and what kind of images doesn't, at Airliners.net world.

Luis
 
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JeffM
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Mirage (Reply 17):
Sorry, forget it and keep trying. Since you made that guide to rejection reasons you should know what kind of images might have a chance and what kind of images doesn't, at Airliners.net world.

 rotfl  Maybe a new section is in order Luis?

I'd say it looks more like a heavily cropped image then just the grain you would expect to see from iso640. Can't the D200 produce a useable image at that ISO? I would hope so.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting Mirage (Reply 17):
Since you made that guide to rejection reasons you should know what kind of images might have a chance and what kind of images doesn't, at Airliners.net world.

I know that pretty well but there's also the 'rule' of applying lower standards to rare photos and just look for A2A shots of airliners at dusk/night conditions; you'll only find a handful here on A.net!

Quoting JeffM (Reply 18):
I'd say it looks more like a heavily cropped image then just the grain you would expect to see from iso640. Can't the D200 produce a useable image at that ISO?

Why don't you produce a better A2A shot in such conditions before making unqualified remarks; would be a nice change for once...

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
photopilot
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:47 am

Right place, right time.... poor execution.

Sorry, but IMHO the frame just cannot be salvaged regardless of editing technique.

Now here's the important question. How many other frames are there?
I would surely hope that given the opportunity to catch this image, that you have many many frames to choose from. I would surely hope that you have other frames where you bracketed the exposure.

Perhaps one of the other frames would be better and worth the effort. Sadly, this frame isn't.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 19):
I know that pretty well but there's also the 'rule' of applying lower standards to rare photos and just look for A2A shots of airliners at dusk/night conditions; you'll only find a handful here on A.net!

Apply some common sense to that statement, then ask yourself "Why are there only a handful?" Those kind of shots are not rare, but they are difficult/impossible due to the limitations of our equipment.

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 19):
Why don't you produce a better A2A shot in such conditions before making unqualified remarks;

You are right, it looks like you did the best you could do. I've shot plenty just like that or very similar that have ended up in the recycle bin, the difference is I knew that kind of quality just won't get in and didn't bother trying. And won't even bother in the future.

I will agree though, if it does get in, it certainly will be rare.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:19 am

Another edit done by Mr Markman:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/big/ready/dai__INFLIGHT030207z2.jpg

Thanks Paul!  Wink

Any comments?

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"
 
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JeffM
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:28 am

I think the second edit was better. This one really doesn't do it any favors. There is still way too much grain and softness.
 
javibi
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 22):
Any comments?

Believe me, I know perfectly how you feel about that shot and why you want so much to save it, but I sadly have to agree with those who think this is a lost case.  Sad

j
 
Twistedwhisper
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Thierry,

I'm no photographer (at least not a skilled one) and I possess virtually no knowledge in Photoshop, or any other image editing software for that matter... so I took the liberty of showing your image to a friend who works as an editor at renowned advertising agency in London, and he said he was almost crying, because the picture, he says, is really one of a kind. But without faking it, it will be close to impossible to get it grainless and sharp.
If you have three or four weeks and feel like go by it almost pixel to pixel, then maybe...

I will keep my eyes open for it, and if you manage, I will definatly use it as background instead of this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alexandre Pontes - Lisbon Spotters



Good luck, and thank you for so many other great shots!
Read between the lines.
 
Psych
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting TWISTEDWHISPER (Reply 25):
it will be close to impossible to get it grainless and sharp

I would remove the 'close to' bit from your statement there, Erik. The nature of this photo is such that it is simply not possible to remove the grain of make it pin sharp without effectively creating a new - and false - image. I think we would all agree that that would be manipulating the image beyond that which most of us would like to see.

Obviously I have a particular interest in Thierry's photo, as he was kind enough to allow me to have a play with it. I actually do believe the version above is a good attempt and does ask a reasonable question of the screeners - as do so many of those great images people like Javier try to share with us here. These take us to the heart of one of the most interesting debates we can have here - is A.net a aviation 'database', or an aviation photography site, and if it is a combination, where do the boundaries lie? Rare subjects qualify for a more relaxed use of rejection criteria - should rare opportunities like this shot have the same privilege?

Only by people like Thierry, Javier and many others being prepared to sacrifice their acceptance statistics and test those boundaries can things move forward and stay fresh.

I wish Thierry luck - I think he will need it.

Paul
 
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walter2222
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 26):
These take us to the heart of one of the most interesting debates we can have here - is A.net a aviation 'database', or an aviation photography site, and if it is a combination, where do the boundaries lie? Rare subjects qualify for a more relaxed use of rejection criteria - should rare opportunities like this shot have the same privilege?

Personally, I would say yes! I was just thinking about it, since the past week I started scanning some of my (very) old slides and the results are really disappointing (if you compare quality with today's standards). Since a friend of mine is writing a book on the "Belgian Fouga's", I was really curious whether they would be accepted here (I know, standards are lower for these very old ones) before offering them for print...Both got accepted (first entries for these registrations, so that will have helped) and I was encouraged to scan some more (although I find it rather time consuming  Smile...) and now I have some others in the queue. Although I will be very happy if these old ones will be accepted, I also think about how difficult it is to get a similar aircraft - but also in difficult and unique circumstances - accepted today (e.g.I had several rejections on the "Hopsten Phantom", taken on a dark and cold winter-day).

Quoting TWISTEDWHISPER (Reply 25):
it will be close to impossible to get it grainless and sharp.

I agree with this statement, but would anyone prefer to throw it in the bin for this reason, or would we prefer to look at it, with the best possible quality that is achievable, under these circumstances? I would certainly like to see it!

As another example, I can refer to a thread on "Scramble" (known to most of us here) about shots at airbases in the eighties/nineties, which has received all-time record hits and where somebody made the remark that quality is not that important, the memories are more important!

I bet that Thierry has a very good memory about this occasion when he saw this opportunity for this shot (the memory of the rejection is something completely different of course).

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
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ThierryD
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RE: Nighttime Air-to-Air Photo

Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:34 am

Ok, so the shot got rejected after 1 day in screening for quality, blurry and grainy; I'm not really surprised though still a little disappointed that such rare shots don't qualify for less strict acceptance criteria.  Sad
I'm also a little confused about the personal message stating "Not truely "nighttime"." Don't know what the screener in question wanted to express with that message.  Confused The photo definitely qualifies for A.net's dark category and though there's still some sunlight visible (without it the shot would have been impossible) the following photo:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thierry Deutsch


taken some 15 minutes before clearly shows the low standing of the sun and on the ground below it was night; only the altitude at which we were flying allowed us to still have some sunlight.

Well anyway, it was worth a try.
@Javier: I might want to borrow your signature someday!  Wink

Thierry
"Go ahead...make my day"

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