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KarlADrage
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:04 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:30 pm

This was just posted elsewhere. It's taken from DM's homepage:

Demand MediaTM is building a different type of new media company.

With a proprietary media platform that powers the company's highly-trafficked domains and wholly-owned content media properties, Demand Media leverages cutting edge, user-driven publishing, community and monetization tools in its quest to define the next generation of new media companies.

--------------------------------------------
What exactly does 'wholly-owned content media properties' say to anyone else???  Yeah sure
Cheers,
 
eadster
Posts: 2125
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:31 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:36 pm

My god this place is changing....

Think it maybe time to go....
 
spoogle
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:53 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting Ryangooner (Reply 97):
Im ready to pull

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm ...........
 Wow!

On a more serious note .. What Royal has said is spot on & makes a lot of sense , but until everything is clearer than the mud it currently seems to be , we'll just have to be patient .

Would DM invest an fair amount of time & money only to loose most of the photogs on here ?

I dont know ..... you'd have thought not ... but ?

sit tight and lets wait for the update.
Its not what you have ... its how you use it :@)
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:40 pm

I have a feeling they want to turn this site into a stock photo website, getting free photos and then selling them off to companies interested in them with little overhead.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 66):
How about an upload strike if this is not resolved in an acceptable manner in a few day's time?

That could have some noticeable effect on site traffic, and thus on DM's income, before next month, and that seems to bother this company a lot more than anything we write here.

I'd definately be interested in doing so, (not like I even upload that much anyway)

-Matt
 
harlequin67
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:40 pm

My first post here.

My thoughts run along the line of......Why have they decided to change the rules?

Who does it benefit? Rules normally change to block loopholes or to give someone an advantage.

This rule change appears to give all rights to DM with NO benefit to photographers.

I would be very concerned at this moment in time.
 
dimage
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:51 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:41 pm

Hi,

i think that those words used in the new TOU can be interpreted in very different ways and that many photographers like me are confused by DM taking the right to do more than only display your pictures. This may not mean that they will use the pictures for commercial but it leaves them the possibility to do so in the futur. I will wait to hear a detailed explanation from someone of DM. If they can't clear this problem it would be a good idea to make an upload strike like Peter has already suggested.

regards
Sebastian
The Boeing 747 shows that nothing is impossible
 
mclaudio
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:22 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:52 pm



Quoting Dimage (Reply 106):
upload strike

I wouldn't call it exactly a strike, but...as I am seriously thinking to ask my photos on the db to be deleted if all this non-sense wins, I decided to remove from the queue what I had waiting for the screeners. Perhaps with less work for the screeners they can find a little more time to explain DM what our hobby really is.

Without any doubt...the party is over!
Proudly one of the 6 million Portuguese that support SL Benfica!! Champions 2009-2010!
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:55 pm



Quoting Mclaudio (Reply 108):
I decided to remove from the queue what I had waiting for the screeners.

I've done the same. Partly as a show of protest and how serious we/I am, and partly for the reasons you listed.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
foxtrot183
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:40 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:10 pm

Just deleted all 21 photos I had in the upload queue (all passed first screening). Suggest a boycott of all other threads except this one, until we get some answers.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:18 pm

Quoting Mclaudio (Reply 108):

Same here, also removed my photos from queue.

---

I wonder what Johan is thinking right now? That his creation that took him 10 years and alot of money and late nights to build, is going down the $hitt#r by the minute? Maybe Johan should take the money that DM gave him, and buy the site back.

DM needs to seriously get working on some new text or there will I imagine be only a handful of photos on Airliners.net.

-Matt

Edit: Clarity

[Edited 2008-02-09 12:22:45]
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19287
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 92):
No Chris if you read my post I said I don't think that is what DM is going to do.

To me, these words:

Quote:
irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, reproduce, modify, transmit, distribute, publicly perform and display (including in each case by means of a digital audio and video transmission), advertise in, on, and around, and create derivative works of the Content you submit

clearly say that DM can use any photo I upload (even if I ask for it to be removed the next day) for whatever they want, whenever they want, wherever they want, for ever!  Wow!

The only thing they're not raping me on is that they cede exclusive use of the photo! That's OK then.  banghead 

So, by simply uploading my photo to this site, I agree to allow DM to use it, in say advertising, and potentially generate income from my photo, and I get precisely nothing for it. Nice.

Not only that, but they can also bastardise my image in any way they see fit (that's the "create derivative works" part).
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 104):
I have a feeling they want to turn this site into a stock photo website, getting free photos and then selling them off to companies interested in them with little overhead.

That's also crossed my mind. The scary thing is they would actually have the right to do this with those lovely new terms. If it happens, we'll know the reason why money was paid for this site.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:26 pm

Does anyone know if this also applies to MyAviation.net? If so, I might consider having those deleted also if I do have my A.net ones deleted. Not like I have any great photos on MyAv.net anyway.

-Matt
 
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eksath
Crew
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:19 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:27 pm

Like others have mentioned before, I will delete mine as well.

Just deleted all pictures in my upload queue.

I disagree with this direction that the website is heading in.


Suresh

[Edited 2008-02-09 12:30:09]
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:27 pm



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 111):
Maybe Johan should take the money that DM gave him, and buy the site back.

DM would probably of jacked the price up... though to be honest, I'm sure if that was even in the realm of possibility, a lot of us would chip in...
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:28 pm

Guys explanations are on the way. Please wait with the photo deletions until we really know what's going on

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
boeingfreak
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:07 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:29 pm

Hi all,
reading through this thread and the one in site-related again makes me worry even more! I just have put up a forum to discuss the TOU without Demand Media being at the controls (I fear they could delete or "modify" posts). Feel free to sign up and discuss it there as well, just in case....  Smile
I don't trust them anymore.

Link to the forum

Florian
 
Fly747
Posts: 1361
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:03 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:31 pm

As said in other forums on the net, some have already requested to have their photos removed from the database.

Quoting Flyheligirl (Reply 47):
I fully understand the questions and I plan on getting them to you next week.

I, and I'm sure many others, don't feel comfortable waiting till "next week."
I am seriously considering pulling my photos right now as well. The way things have been handled lately is just unacceptable and the wording of the new TOU is rather disturbing to many photogs.

Ivan
 
middleken
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:20 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:32 pm

what about the bolded parts - seems pretty clear to me with "other works", and not obligated to include our name. So they can create other works with our photos, and not give credit. I don't know how much clearer that can be.

5. OWNERSHIP OF RIGHTS; LICENSE RIGHTS; USER SUBMISSIONS

1. Ownership of Your Content. You retain ownership of your rights in any Content you submit to the Service, subject to the non-exclusive rights that you grant to us as described in these Terms.

2. Your License to Airliners.net.

1. Subject to your right to terminate your license to us as described in Section 5(C), you hereby grant Airliners.net an irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, reproduce, modify, transmit, distribute, publicly perform and display (including in each case by means of a digital audio and video transmission), advertise in, on, and around, and create derivative works of the Content you submit or make available for inclusion on or through the Service, and to incorporate such Content into other works in any form, media, or technology now known or later developed, for purposes such as (but not limited to) promoting the Site or promoting the availability of such Content on the Site.
2. You also hereby waive any moral rights you may have under the laws of any jurisdiction in Content you submit or make available on or through the Service. While it is our general policy to include your name alongside your Content, we are not obligated to do so.


AND:

17. CUSTOMER SUPPORT. We have no obligation to provide you with customer support of any kind. However, we may provide you with customer support from time to time, at our sole discretion, if you have created an Account and you submit your customer support questions using your Account.
 
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dvincent
Posts: 1590
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:41 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 117):
Guys explanations are on the way. Please wait with the photo deletions until we really know what's going on

Tim,

You're a good guy and I respect what you do, but this shoot first ask questions later mentality of DM has been their modus operandi from day one. It's disappointing that this whole thing could have been averted by discussing it with users beforehand. This way this "do things, people get pissed, explanations that don't really solve anything" cycle is broken. They are leaving guys like you to clean up after their mess and that isn't fair.

I'm not stupid. I can read - and what I'm reading isn't good. I agree with the fact that it was no coincidence that this was released late on a Friday. It does not bode well.

I will be watching, as will other users, and if this does not change, I will be forced to leave. Explanations do nothing, because I can read English, even lawyer speak. This isn't exactly word gymnastics, the wording is pretty crystal here.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
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Bruce
Posts: 4947
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:41 pm

I read over it and really, I'm not getting worked up over it. Many website have similar wording about content that users post. I think it is common in the business that when you post any sort of content on someone's website that person/business can have license to use it.

As an example, I work for a tv station here in the U.S. We have a blog page and a community photos section. You know what our TOS says? Yup....all content that you post becomes the property of FOX television stations. Many of the other terms in the TOS are the same or similar to DM's new wording. Say for example I posted a picture of a plane crash, it could be used on every FOX TV station without any compensation for me.

Let's face it. This is a business. Businesses exist to make money. When Johan started it, it was a hobby. Johan tried to make money off it, but he didn't have a corporate entity behind him - and the site was in Sweden. Different legal processes. Many of you know that here in the USA, people are lawsuit-happy. Businesses operating here can get sued under our justice system hence the need for tons of legalese to cover just about any possible scenario. It is a sad state of affairs when we have to cover our butts with all that legalese, but that is reality.

I don't think the DM is going to run away with our photos. I think this new TOS is merely to protect themselves against any known or unknown, present or future, legal issues that someone could bring against them.

It was inevitable that once Johan transferred the site to an american owner in the USA, things like this would happen.

just my two cents.

bruce
**the opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of anyone else, present or future***  Smile
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Stil
Posts: 311
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:49 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:41 pm

There were a lot of threads about photographers giving their pics for free. Why DM will let hundreds of good photographers go just to sell a few remaining pics?.... knowing somebody can offer similar pics for free.
But something has to change very soon, because the new terms looks like selling the soul to the devil... And no misunderstandings are possible. DM terms are quite clear about their intentions and I can't even think about leaving here a single picture with such terms.

Quoting Foxtrot183 (Reply 110):
Suggest a boycott of all other threads except this one, until we get some answers.

I didn't realise there were other threads. I though this is THE thread  Smile

Stil
....... Gueropppa! ......
 
andrej
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 8:31 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:49 pm

Hey all,

 twocents 

not A.net photographer, but I would never agree to such terms. The photographer should always have rights to his/her shot no matter what, unless s/he agrees to give such rights away. DM should clarify this issue as soon as possible and not wait till next week. Photographers that upload here are the value of this website. Yes there are forums here, but pictures are the attraction! I think that deleting your shots from queue sends right message to the management.

Quoting Middleken (Reply 120):

AND:

17. CUSTOMER SUPPORT. We have no obligation to provide you with customer support of any kind. However, we may provide you with customer support from time to time, at our sole discretion, if you have created an Account and you submit your customer support questions using your Account.

I am glad that I was "grand-fathered in" and I am not paying costumer, otherwise I would cancel my membership here. I wait till the day when those that were "grand-fathered in" will be asked to pay monthly fees as well...... pessimist   grumpy 

Good luck to photographers and I hope that this will get resolved soon....I would hate not to see your shots on this site!

Cheers.
Andrej
 
Ander
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:14 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:50 pm



Quoting Bruce (Reply 122):
I think it is common in the business that when you post any sort of content on someone's website that person/business can have license to use it.

Bruce, we're talking about top quality aviation photos here!
And they want almost unlimited rights to them!!!
That's a NoGo for me!!
Born to tri.
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Bruce (Reply 122):
I read over it and really, I'm not getting worked up over it. Many website have similar wording about content that users post. I think it is common in the business that when you post any sort of content on someone's website that person/business can have license to use it.

That maybe the case, but did you (like I) take years uploading hundreds of images to let this happen? I certainly didn't! This just isn't cricket people.
Spencer.
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
bjcc
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:29 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:00 pm

Tim has a point about rushing in. Its Saturday (in Europe) and lawyers don't tend to work weekends.

Waiting till monday wont harm anyone, so why not let it ride till then.

One thing Tim, explanations arn't going to cut it with me. It is, as has been said, more than clear what the meaning of the clause is. The intention may well be different, and on that, I am prepared to believe DM's assurances at the moment. However intentions can change, and with that clause included in the TOU, if the intentions change then it is too late to do anything about it.

The solution is for the intentions of DM to be clearly stated, and that clause amended appropriatly. That way, photographers can't be disadvantaged in the future, and if DM intend nothing more than the odd bit of advertising, they have lost nothing (except more lawyers fees) in the process.
 
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Dahlgardo
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:01 pm

Hi all

Quoting Mat1979 (Reply 53):
Just to be on the safe side, i wanted to have a look at how to remove a pic of mine from the database.

It appears there is no automated process to do so (i didn't find any).

Does anyone know what the procedure is to remove a photo (regardless of your opinion whether pics ought to be removed or not)?

Does anyone have an answer to this question ?

The mail from DM did not specify any e-mail or link, and you cannot send a reply to sender-address. I'm kinda lost how to inform DM that I do not accept the new terms and I want my photos removed ASAP.

br
Jakob
in Copenhagen
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
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Kukkudrill
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:09 pm



Quoting Bruce (Reply 122):
I don't think the DM is going to run away with our photos. I think this new TOS is merely to protect themselves against any known or unknown, present or future, legal issues that someone could bring against them.

Sorry but this doesn't wash. Look at the terms of service of Flickr and see how much more limited and specific they are compared to the ones DM have come up with. A.net photographers aren't going to be suckered into signing away their rights so easily.

Charles
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
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eksath
Crew
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:19 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 129):
Look at the terms of service of Flickr and see how much more limited and specific they are compared to the ones DM have come up with.

Charles,

By the way, there was a famous incident (reported in the NYT- i will try and post link to it). A teenage girl (frm the US) visiting Australia finds her picture on bus stop ads. It turned out that her church group mentor posted pictures on Flickr for sharing with other members and the those pics (DUE TO THE RULES OF Flickr) were sold to an advertising company (despite the lack of model release and photographer release) for their campaign by Flickr. The photog was not aware either. I believe there is a legal case going on.

I see parallels to this case happaning here but far worse.

Again, this move is very very troubling and it is not "merely" lawyer jargon and innocent small print!
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
deeplight
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:01 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:43 pm

Hello Photographers, Crew AND Members,


I want to let everyone know that all photorights will be held by the photographer and I will personally oversee and take care of any problems over this coming week Photos will ONLY be used the way they are used now and possibly for new features but always in the same form and not modified or for use in any other way.
We will work you on the TOU so you are up to speed on every detail and we will work on changes this week.

Please accept my deepest apology as this was a mandate from legal to implement TOU asap. I take full responsibility on this issue and Monique was simply following instructions to move on this. I'm in contact with Legal today and will be working with them over the next week to sculpt this document. Please be patient - Thank you


I'm sorry this is going to be quick as I had to log on a computer at the airport as this is a rare day for me - I'm with my 90 yr old Dad on a flight / trip to the Confederate Air Force Museum / hangar in OXR - Oxnard,CA. to see the plane he flew in WWII.

I will be back on after 630pm PST and I'm available all day tomorrow as well.

Best Regards,
Paulo Emanuele
 
mclaudio
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:22 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting Bruce (Reply 122):
Let's face it. This is a business. Businesses exist to make money

I am sorry to partially disagree Mr Bruce, but aviation photography is an hobby. It is not correct to see isolated photos uploaded by enthusiasts as a professional job. In a professional job a photographer must talk and reach an agreement with the client and both sign a copyright declarations in the terms they agree, do the job and get the results the customer needs, receive the payment and issue a receipt...pay taxes and get along with life.
Airliners.net is something completely different and the original intention of its origin had nothing to do with business. I am a daily visitor to airliners.net since 1999 and trust me...airliners.net has got nothing to do with business. If DM wants to make money (and it is their right to do so) then must come up with different ways to do it in a logic and fair way. Note that I am not saying that I as an 'uploader' want a slice of the pie when it gets to money. What I am saying is that, for example (and in theory), if DM wanted to use a photo I have on the db on a magazine ad for airliners.net I would be happy with that even without getting any payment. In such a situation just my name near the photo would be an honour, but when they write things like this:

Quote:
While it is our general policy to include your name alongside your Content, we are not obligated to do so.

I don't consider it a fair relation. That's all.
Proudly one of the 6 million Portuguese that support SL Benfica!! Champions 2009-2010!
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 135):
Hello Photographers, Crew AND Members,


I want to let everyone know that all photorights will be held by the photographer and I will personally oversee and take care of any problems over this coming week Photos will ONLY be used the way they are used now and possibly for new features but always in the same form and not modified or for use in any other way.
We will work you on the TOU so you are up to speed on every detail and we will work on changes this week.

Please accept my deepest apology as this was a mandate from legal to implement TOU asap. I take full responsibility on this issue and Monique was simply following instructions to move on this. I'm in contact with Legal today and will be working with them over the next week to sculpt this document. Please be patient - Thank you


I'm sorry this is going to be quick as I had to log on a computer at the airport as this is a rare day for me - I'm with my 90 yr old Dad on a flight / trip to the Confederate Air Force Museum / hangar in OXR - Oxnard,CA. to see the plane he flew in WWII.

I will be back on after 630pm PST and I'm available all day tomorrow as well.

Best Regards,
Paulo Emanuele

Mr. Paulo Emanuele,

Whatever happens in Airliners.net that is directly conected with OUR photos must be done communicating with US, the photographers, John Lundgren designed Airliners.net and WE made it grow to be the reference it is nowadays, WE deserve respect and fair treatment, either from the administration or from the Screeners. Without OUR photos you will have ZERO, Airliners.net will be finished.

Thank you
Luis Rosa
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4709
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:59 pm



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 135):
Hello Photographers, Crew AND Members,


I want to let everyone know that all photorights will be held by the photographer and I will personally oversee and take care of any problems over this coming week Photos will ONLY be used the way they are used now and possibly for new features but always in the same form and not modified or for use in any other way.
We will work you on the TOU so you are up to speed on every detail and we will work on changes this week.

Please accept my deepest apology as this was a mandate from legal to implement TOU asap. I take full responsibility on this issue and Monique was simply following instructions to move on this. I'm in contact with Legal today and will be working with them over the next week to sculpt this document. Please be patient - Thank you


I'm sorry this is going to be quick as I had to log on a computer at the airport as this is a rare day for me - I'm with my 90 yr old Dad on a flight / trip to the Confederate Air Force Museum / hangar in OXR - Oxnard,CA. to see the plane he flew in WWII.

I will be back on after 630pm PST and I'm available all day tomorrow as well.

Best Regards,
Paulo Emanuele

Alrighty, thank you for the response Paulo. Surely most of us can relax a little bit now?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:02 pm

Paulo, firstly thanks for getting back to us. Although it seems from your statement that things are to remain the same, there still seems to be a slight grey area there, and as you said, I'll wait till you get back to us with something more concrete. However if we're to stay the same as before all this came up why do you still confuse us (me) with bringing Legal into it? Have a great day out with your Dad. Try and upload a pick or two!! Hahaha.
Spencer.
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
 
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Kukkudrill
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:11 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:06 pm



Quoting Eksath (Reply 132):
By the way, there was a famous incident (reported in the NYT- i will try and post link to it). A teenage girl (frm the US) visiting Australia finds her picture on bus stop ads. It turned out that her church group mentor posted pictures on Flickr for sharing with other members and the those pics (DUE TO THE RULES OF Flickr) were sold to an advertising company (despite the lack of model release and photographer release) for their campaign by Flickr. The photog was not aware either. I believe there is a legal case going on.

I heard about this. The problem was not Flickr's terms of service (Flickr had nothing to do with the case) but the fact that the photos were posted under a creative commons licence which is different from normal copyright and which basically permits free use. It is up to indivdual photographers what type of licence they attach to the photos they upload to Flickr and there was no attempt at a rights grab on Flickr's part.

I have just seen Paolo Emanuele's message - hopefully a very positive development. Seems like this isn't a dirty rights grab after all, just an amazing piece of ineptitude on DM's part. Let's see what happens.

Charles
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting Spencer (Reply 140):
However if we're to stay the same as before all this came up why do you still confuse us (me) with bringing Legal into it?

The way I got him, the DM legal department are the ones who created and made the a.net crew publish these new terms. If you look at flightlevel350.com, another DM aviation site, you'll see that they've got new ToUs as well and the crucial bit on copyright discussed here sounds very similar. So naturally, DM legal are the ones the concerns voiced here ultimately address.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
JRadier
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 139):
Alrighty, thank you for the response Paulo. Surely most of us can relax a little bit now?

Nope... All I get from his reply is DM's standard tactic, shoot first, ask questions second. Needless to say, with us being at the receiving end this isn't exactly a favorable tactic for us.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:18 pm

Paulo's answer doesn't clear anything up. WHat if the "new features" are putting our un-modified images on a t-shirt and selling them? The current TOU allows for that. There are still too many questions that need to be answered.
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aloges
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 139):
Paulo's answer doesn't clear anything up.

Was it supposed to?  Confused He said sorry and that he'd get back to the legal department and then to us.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:29 pm

Just to clarify a bit of Paulo's post in light of subsequent ones. It relates to form as well. So it will only be linked thumbnail content that may be used for new services. Printed shirts etc is a different form. Photos will just be used as they are now, or in linked (thumbnail) form to new services such as games, profiles, etc. Like Charles said, it's not a cheap rights grab.

I agree that there are many questions to be answered and I am not in the position of giving them but I d hope Paulo's message takes some of the heat off. There was a push to get the TOU on and there was no time to properly consult with the crew and community/photographers. I'm sure next week will bring many changes to the TOU.

I really hate to see everyone so upset, but I'm sure this will be handled correctly next week with paulo on top of things.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
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LTU932
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:30 pm



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 135):
Hello Photographers, Crew AND Members,


I want to let everyone know that all photorights will be held by the photographer and I will personally oversee and take care of any problems over this coming week Photos will ONLY be used the way they are used now and possibly for new features but always in the same form and not modified or for use in any other way.
We will work you on the TOU so you are up to speed on every detail and we will work on changes this week.

Please accept my deepest apology as this was a mandate from legal to implement TOU asap. I take full responsibility on this issue and Monique was simply following instructions to move on this. I'm in contact with Legal today and will be working with them over the next week to sculpt this document. Please be patient - Thank you

Just make sure that the wording will become easier to understand and free of any potential misunderstandings. Or in the initial TOU, you could have included an article that says that the final copyright lies with the photographer and that the photog has full discretion over the picture and its use, and that DM can only use that picture for things other than displaying it in the database if the company has the full permission of the copyright owner. You've got to remember that the very thing that got Airliners.net created from Pictures of Modern Airliners were the pictures. If it wasn't for the pictures, this website wouldn't have become what it is today.

Finally, keep us updated or even let us suggest things for the final TOU revision. I'm sure many of us are eager to provide suggestions to keep this site what it is, a website shaped by and made for the community at large. Like I said in another thread, if this was a fully free site, you could do what you'd please, but since this site offers also a premium service, it would be more than fair to discuss certain things with the community before going live, especially since some things can lead to "meltdowns" like this current one, like in a company listed in the Stock Exchange where you have to disclose your actions and report to shareholders.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
KLM772ER
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:30 pm

I don't think there is any need to make some overhasty decisions.. I can't believe DM will risk loosing most if not all photographers by keeping those new terms as this would ruin the site! So lets all calm down and see what the next few days bring..

Anyway if DM keeps those new terms I will also pull my photos without hesitation as those terms are unacceptable as they are right now!

Björn
 
747438
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:37 pm



Quoting KLM772ER (Reply 144):
if DM keeps those new terms I will also pull my photos without hesitation as those terms are unacceptable as they are right now!

I would be surprised if many keep their work on the site. I will be pulling my contributions too
 
aloges
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 142):
There was a push to get the TOU on and there was no time to properly consult with the crew and community/photographers.

I find this completely ridiculous. After the past difficult months, I would have thought that everyone from DM dealing with this site and its users was aware that most of the trust for the corporation has been lost. That means any update to something as crucial as the copyright rules in the terms of use should be treated with as much care and goodwill as possible... I guess we all will have to put up with yet another disappointment.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 142):
I really hate to see everyone so upset,

Please don't take it personally, the dissatisfaction is solely the fault of the paid officials at Demand Media. You volunteers from the Lundgren Aerospace days have often seemed just as surprised as we mere members.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
viv
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:44 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 142):
I'm sure next week will bring many changes to the TOU.

Let us hope so. The ToU in their present form are NOT acceptable to me. Unless they are changed to something acceptable I will have no option but to pull my shots.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
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dvincent
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:49 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 142):
I really hate to see everyone so upset, but I'm sure this will be handled correctly next week with paulo on top of things.

Tim,

Like Aloges said, don't take it personally. We care about our images and we care about the site.

On a more positive note, we can start thinking of ways to work together and get something that's amenable to both sides.

For example, I am fine with a.net using my images in thumbnails for things like... the aviation news, or the aircraft info pages. But like on the aircraft type info pages, the photographer's name and the copyright should always be shown. It's common courtesy, I would think. Even for an airliners advertising banner - as long as the credit was given.

Most of us are pretty reasonable and I don't mind my images being used on airliners.net in and of itself for purposes like that. I think the important thing is that people want the credit and they want to be in control of how their images are used. This is why people are getting so hot under the collar. Especially when uploading, for the average person, can be a minefield.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
JRadier
Posts: 3957
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:54 pm



Quoting Dvincent (Reply 148):
Most of us are pretty reasonable and I don't mind my images being used on airliners.net in and of itself for purposes like that.

I wouldn't have cared too much I think (not sure), but after this stunt (and the others preceding this one) DM has lost a lot of credit!
 
747438
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:55 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 149):
DM has lost a lot of credit!

Of that there is no doubt.
I feel trust has gone out of the window with DM
 
ZakHH
Posts: 1570
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 135):

Paulo,

honestly, I am ready to believe that it was never Demand Media's intention to (mis-)use photos in any other way than they were used before here. The most likely explanation to me seems that the paragraph in question was merely designed to protect Demand Media against any possible claims, no matter what.

Anyway, in my eyes, this was a bad, bad mistake.

After what has happened here over the past months, it should have been apparent that there was a significant lack of trust towards Demand Media from out of the community. To try installing such terms of use in such a situation is beyond my understanding.

I do appreciate your quick response, especially during a weekend (though friday was probably the worst of all days to release such new terms). And I am always all in for a constructive discussion.

But over the past months, too much has happened that must never, under no circumstances, have happened. While I deeply respect that you are always ready to take the responsibility, I would still prefer certain mistakes being avoided right from the start.

Sure, hindsight is always 20/20. But is the reaction of the photographer community to these new rules really surprising? If so, then it would in my eyes indicate a lack of understanding the community. And this again could hardly be regarded as qualification to run a website that is fully depending on content being provided by the community.

Please do not take this as a personal attack. This is not directed against you personally, nor against anybody else. Scapegoating will not help anyway. But we have to reach a point where you don't have to show up here every few months, apologizing and taking the responsibility for something that has gone all the wrong way. This is too painful, both for you and the community.

I guess the cooperation between Demand Media and the airliners.net community has to be improved. I cannot see how airliners.net could become a profitable asset for Demand Media without the community. And somehow I do not feel that the current level of cooperation is sufficient.

I hope I have not violated any rules by sharing these thoughts, as that was not my intention. Neither was it to offend. This is just how I see things.

Cheers
Stefan, aka ZakHH
Tired of a.net? Join a friendly aviation community!
 
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dvincent
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:58 pm



Quoting JRadier (Reply 149):
I wouldn't have cared too much I think (not sure), but after this stunt (and the others preceding this one) DM has lost a lot of credit!

Jurgen,

I wouldn't disagree with that... I'm just saying that if the terms were right I'd be OK with it.
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