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beechcraft
Posts: 731
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:10 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting KLM772ER (Reply 144):
I don't think there is any need to make some overhasty decisions.. I can't believe DM will risk loosing most if not all photographers by keeping those new terms as this would ruin the site! So lets all calm down and see what the next few days bring..

Anyway if DM keeps those new terms I will also pull my photos without hesitation as those terms are unacceptable as they are right now!

Hi all,

the above is very well said. Please stick with us, i´m sure things will be solved at latest after the weekend.
I know it´s a very frustating situation, i was shocked when i saw that, too, and i´m sure these T&C would mean the end of a.net very fast, as there wouldn´t be enough crew and photographers left here to form a Beachvolleyball Team...

Of course this shouldn´t have happened in the first place, we all agree on that.

My suggestion would be to calm down for now, even if it´s hard...maybe a good opportunity to support your local pub...

cheers,

Denis
 
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Ryan h
Posts: 1703
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:00 pm

It seems that Demand Media see the dollar signs flashing and are willing to shoot themselves in the foot.

I probably won't go down the drastic route of having pics deleted, but will make them unatrractive for use in other ways.

Does this affect myaviation.net as well?.
 
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lennymuir
Posts: 403
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:01 pm

Having read this thread, I would have no hesitation pulling +2,200

Clarification is required A.S.A.P. (!)

The new 'Terms', as written, is lunacy.

If unchanged, this place will wilt on the vine.

I hope they get the message



Gerry
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14436
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:07 pm



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 134):
Alrighty, thank you for the response Paulo. Surely most of us can relax a little bit now?

Unfortunately Ryan that will never be the case. The "let's pull our pics" paranioa has been around here long before this witch hunt. Just look at the track record of some of the photogs. Some have pulled them only to upload them again. In some way I guess it gives them a sense of something but I sure don't get it.

Paulo and Tim seem sincere and I have not bought into this hysteria for the simple reason that DM would never just start taking our work and using it all over the place. What we have seen is just another explosion of sentiment that was manifested as soon as DM took control when photogs here started in with the "DM is making money on us" mindset. What I don't get is that if you feel that way why do you keep uploading here?
 
747438
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:09 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 157):

Unbelievable as usual !!!!
 
scottieprecord
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:38 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:09 pm

I too plan on pulling my shots if the Terms are not restated in an acceptable manner...

However, I highly doubt this will happen. Hope this gets worked out soon, and thanks to Paulo for communicating directly with us int he Av Photo forum.

Have a nice day everyone
Mike
 
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dvincent
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 157):
What I don't get is that if you feel that way why do you keep uploading here?

Nick,

I have reduced my uploading as of late because I have been feeling ambivalent about the site and the direction it's heading in.

The flat out contempt I have seen for contributing members is startling. Intentional or not it's like the owners are trying to do things to angry up the blood, while Tim et al try to play damage control.

But it's like... a lot of it comes from the fact that this could have all been avoided had the achilles heel of the new ownership not reared its ugly head again - and that's lack of communication combined with puzzling, user unfriendly moves and a "Shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, after all.

Can you see why people would be upset?
 
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jorge1812
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:52 pm



Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):
New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Would someone here be so kind to tell me? I'm no native english speaker and don't have the time to read the entire Terms and this entire thread. Said in three sentences! What does it really mean to us at the moment. Don't tell me what you think that it means for the Photogs - i want an easy understandable summary of the new terms and conditions.

Thanks!

georg
 
Rara
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:14 am

Everyone,

I'm not one of the paranoid types and I'm against overreacting in all forms. But in this case, even though I'm not a photographer, I must warn everyone: be on your guard! Be very careful with this!

What Paolo Emanuele gives you here is his personal opinion - not in any way legally binding for Demand Media. Whether truthful or not, and we have no reason to believe it's not truthful - but if Demand Media chooses to replace him in, say, two years - then the TOU you agreed to are still binding for you! If you waive your ownership rights to DM, you're not getting them back. They may say today they're gonna use them for thumbnails, and tomorrow they'll make a book from it, it's simply out of your hands.

DM is a company whose business model it is to make a profit from hobbyists-created content. With this in mind, reading Paolo's message all my alarm bells go on. Look at this:

Quoting Deeplight (Reply 131):

Please accept my deepest apology as this was a mandate from legal to implement TOU asap. I take full responsibility on this issue and Monique was simply following instructions to move on this. I'm in contact with Legal today and will be working with them over the next week to sculpt this document. Please be patient - Thank you

Here it appears as if there were two groups - Paolo, Monique and a.netters on one side and "legal" on the other side; while in reality, "legal" is of course a department of Demand Media. Also the "I take full responsibility" part - this is supposed to sound reassuring, but in a worst-case scenario obviously has no beneficial consequence for the members.

I wouldn't be surprised if DM had a strategy for its employees to "associate" with hobbyists and appear as "one of them". Check this then:

Quoting Deeplight (Reply 131):


I'm sorry this is going to be quick as I had to log on a computer at the airport as this is a rare day for me - I'm with my 90 yr old Dad on a flight / trip to the Confederate Air Force Museum / hangar in OXR - Oxnard,CA. to see the plane he flew in WWII.

It's almost "taylor-made" for a large base of a.net members! First of all the aviation part, of course - he's presented as an aviation enthusiast who took an exciting day of for a flight to an aircraft hangar. Which a.netter wouldn't identify with that? Second, the family aspect - it's not only his father, also is he 90 years old. And third, the war veteran/military service aspect should also go down very well with a considerable part of the a.net membership base.

I might be reading too much into this - but then again, DM is on a mission and I trust they know precisely what they are doing. Thus I ask all of you again: be on your guard! DM is set to make a profit, and your photographs are their business capital. At the end of the day, the legal contract you enter with a.net is your only safeguard. Don't be reassured if they call it "that legal mumbojumbo", signifying they're really "on your side"; it's of central importance.
 
timdegroot
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 158):
It's almost "taylor-made" for a large base of a.net members! First of all the aviation part, of course - he's presented as an aviation enthusiast who took an exciting day of for a flight to an aircraft hangar. Which a.netter wouldn't identify with that? Second, the family aspect - it's not only his father, also is he 90 years old. And third, the war veteran/military service aspect should also go down very well with a considerable part of the a.net membership base.

Jeez have a little faith in the man. I have met him and he s one of the biggest aviation enthusiasts I have ever met!

We don't have to take Paulo's word, he clearly stated the Terms will be changed starting next week. We are not agreeing to the terms now just on the assurance it's not what it says it is. Clearly thing have to be and will change! I hope we wiill provided with a document everyone can agree with and I'm confident DM will come up with something better soon. They have not bought A.net to let it go to waste because of a TOU.

Tim
 
aloges
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:20 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 153):
What I don't get is that if you feel that way why do you keep uploading here?

And what I don't get is why anyone would feel a need to prance into every thread on this issue that has obviously incensed quite a few more people than the so-called usual suspects and belittle their concerns, question their motivations and act like a word-twisting PR spokesman for the company responsible for all these slip-ups. NIKV69, I think it's time you stepped away from this.
 
flynavy
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:20 am

I have pulled all my photos from the upload cue in protest.
 
deeplight
Posts: 201
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:21 am

Hello Everyone
I'm back on line.
Please remember the TOU were vauge and not proportionate to the size Anet had grown to and were written by someone Johan worked with. We are not a large company but we do have a legal dept and they stepped in. I have been very busy with engineering and programing and general business issues to micromanage these guys. I WILL NOW.
Legal sttepped in and I made a mistake by not sheparding this process to all of you .. MY MISTAKE. I' VERY SORRY and I will make sure this works for all of you.

Please be patient and I will fix this situation. We will provide a summary to everyone that explains everything and note the changes in language...what more can I say for now?

Best Regards to all of you. You ARE Anet
Paulo
 
flynavy
Topic Author
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:30 am

Quoting Deeplight (Reply 162):
Please remember the TOU were vauge and not proportionate to the size Anet had grown to and were written by someone Johan worked with. We are not a large company but we do have a legal dept and they stepped in. I have been very busy with engineering and programing and general business issues to micromanage these guys. I WILL NOW.

It took your legal department four weeks to come up with the new Terms of Use. If no one in your legal department could foresee the utter train wreck the new terms are, I have little - if any - confidence in their ability and, more importantly, their competency.

In case anyone is interested (understatement of the year me thinks), I contacted the database editors and inquired about the photo removal process. Any such inquiries need to be sent in the direction of [email protected]

[Edited 2008-02-09 16:43:02]
 
aloges
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:32 am



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 162):
Legal sttepped in and I made a mistake by not sheparding this process to all of you .. MY MISTAKE. I' VERY SORRY and I will make sure this works for all of you.

Please be patient and I will fix this situation. We will provide a summary to everyone that explains everything and note the changes in language...what more can I say for now?

I dunno... how about "free beer for everyone"?  duck   Wink

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 132):
Surely most of us can relax a little bit now?

 checkmark  For all we can tell for the time being, the concerns about copyright have been heard clearly. Those responsible for publishing the ToUs here have realised they were a glaring mistake and Paulo - Johan's successor, let's keep that in mind - has apologised. Let's wait and see what will come next.
 
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dvincent
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 162):
Please be patient and I will fix this situation. We will provide a summary to everyone that explains everything and note the changes in language...what more can I say for now?

I will wait and see. The ball is in your court.
 
aloges
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:27 am

There's another, rather uncomfortable, issue that's been brought up elsewhere. What about the photos uploaded years ago by now deceased members? I'd just like to point this out so it can somehow be considered when the terms are rewritten.
 
NIKV69
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:27 am



Quoting Dvincent (Reply 156):
I have reduced my uploading as of late because I have been feeling ambivalent about the site and the direction it's heading in

What direction is that? All I have seen is assumptions of this and that. It's true that the migration was rough and we can argue all day about the down time. I can tell you I visit this site a lot and it didn't matter that much to me. Now that a popular mod was fired and the fact that DM is not constantly in the forum to answer questions about TOU is being interpretated your not happy with the direction the site is heading? Well, that is your right but as TIm and Eduard have said get up from your computer and take a deep breath. I doubt beginning March 8th DM is going to have all of our pics pasted all over the world for them to benefit.

Quoting Rara (Reply 158):
I wouldn't be surprised if DM had a strategy for its employees to "associate" with hobbyists and appear as "one of them

Maybe like "Invasion of the body snatchers" ?
 
trekster
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 139):
There was a push to get the TOU on and there was no time to properly consult with the crew and community/photographers

Thats the thing thats been getting on EVERYONES nerves since DM took over.

No talking from them to us.

I have only occasionally been in this forum, and WAY this is a heated thread.

Hope DM stick to there word and sort this out, you guys make anet, i just post here.
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13725
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Deeplight (Reply 162):
Please be patient and I will fix this situation. We will provide a summary to everyone that explains everything and note the changes in language...what more can I say for now?

Please let us know when that summary is online.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 166):
There's another, rather uncomfortable, issue that's been brought up elsewhere. What about the photos uploaded years ago by now deceased members?

Indeed. In the case of AirNikon for example, wouldn't the copyright pass to the next of kin or a person specified by him?
 
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dvincent
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 167):
What direction is that? All I have seen is assumptions of this and that. It's true that the migration was rough and we can argue all day about the down time. I can tell you I visit this site a lot and it didn't matter that much to me. Now that a popular mod was fired and the fact that DM is not constantly in the forum to answer questions about TOU is being interpretated your not happy with the direction the site is heading? Well, that is your right but as TIm and Eduard have said get up from your computer and take a deep breath. I doubt beginning March 8th DM is going to have all of our pics pasted all over the world for them to benefit.

Nick,

I don't think you know me very well, but I am a fairly reasonable and rational guy. I have not been panicking, swearing, or flying off the handle with my posts. My reduction in uploads has been over the past several weeks; before any of the recent events. I didn't know Pep all that well and I never visit non-av so his firing has little bearing on me. But after watching the DM takeover go on over the past several months, I've been wondering about whether the site will be the a.net I fell in love with several years ago, or whether it will change into something that I don't want to be a part of. Only time will tell on that front but I haven't been given much confidence or reason to believe so.

I'm not alone in feeling this; several friends of mine who also upload here have been feeling the same way. I won't speak for them; they're able to state their own opinions. The amount of effort one has to expend combined with the roulette wheel of uploading has a return on investment, and it's been pretty low lately. Like I said - I want to contribute here and I want to work with the crew and the "system," so to speak, but it's a two way street. I want to feel like I and my fellow photographers are treated with respect and dignity. We're not a resource to be exploited, we are a community.

I want to believe that Paulo has my interests in mind. I've talked with him in the past and he is a decent person. But it's the same thing every time. Make some kind of change, and react to the backlash instead of working with the people the change will affect before going through with it. This all could have been avoided, is what I am saying.
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:06 am

It is very important to note that a mere assurance from Paolo that nothing bad will be done with the images, and the new TOU remaing the same will not be enough for me. This is for a couple of reasons. Frankly DM (and therefore their staff) has 0 credibility with me (any many other members) so far we have heard tons of promises of new features and less bugs and so on, and this has all been for naught. Secondly, in 2 months, 6 months, a year what is to stop DM from saying we changed our mind, without notice or if Paolo is no longer with them from discarding his promises.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15304
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:24 am

Quoting Deeplight (Reply 162):
Please remember the TOU were vauge and not proportionate to the size Anet had grown to and were written by someone Johan worked with. We are not a large company but we do have a legal dept and they stepped in. I have been very busy with engineering and programing and general business issues to micromanage these guys. I WILL NOW.

Paolo, as someone who knows something about the law, I can assure you that the legal department can step in without obscuring what y'all are trying to do with the site. You have the power to make your attorneys write in plain English. Exercise it.

Edited to add: It's really disingenuous for you to suggest that you didn't direct the legal department to include those terms the business (i.e. the $$) folks wanted included in the ToS. Do you really mean to suggest that you told Legal to write what they wanted and gave them no further notice? That's incredible.

[Edited 2008-02-09 19:32:10]
 
tappan
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:33 am

DM should become a "broker" to any of us who want our photos to make a little bit of cash. I understand that not all of us want to sell or care much about the cash part of this. So this would be a voluntary or "sign up" thing. It could work something like this. a,net could advertise themselves as the largest aviation stock photo agency in the world. They could "woo" or court potential customers. If a company wants a photo, that photographer would receive 85 or 90 percent of the money and DM would get the rest.
Mark Garfinkel
 
skyliner
Posts: 203
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:44 am

Don't know if this has been suggested, but perhaps photographers should consider sending a notice to DM, at the address stated in P5.C, that your 'acceptance' via use after March 8 specifically removes P5.B from the agreement. That could force the ball back into their court, since you have given notice that you don't accept the terms in their entirety. I suspect that if they did not react to this directly, and continued to display your work, they would be in the position of (de facto) accepting your terms. They also could summarily remove your material from the site in retaliation...however that might not be feasible if many photographers utilized this. Anyone capable of commenting on the legal ramifications of this?

George
 
whappeh
Posts: 1058
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:47 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting Tappan (Reply 173):
DM should become a "broker" to any of us who want our photos to make a little bit of cash. I understand that not all of us want to sell or care much about the cash part of this. So this would be a voluntary or "sign up" thing. It could work something like this. a,net could advertise themselves as the largest aviation stock photo agency in the world. They could "woo" or court potential customers. If a company wants a photo, that photographer would receive 85 or 90 percent of the money and DM would get the rest.

That is a great idea, though I doubt that has any chance of being implemented.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:16 am

Quoting Tappan (Reply 173):
DM should become a "broker" to any of us who want our photos to make a little bit of cash. I understand that not all of us want to sell or care much about the cash part of this. So this would be a voluntary or "sign up" thing. It could work something like this. a,net could advertise themselves as the largest aviation stock photo agency in the world. They could "woo" or court potential customers. If a company wants a photo, that photographer would receive 85 or 90 percent of the money and DM would get the rest.

Pimping?

Edit:

That would also put the name out there that ALL photos on the site are stock and can be used when and however they want, even photos that aren't signed up for that service. There is enough theft on A.net as is - no need to encourage it.

[Edited 2008-02-09 20:39:23]
 
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JeffM
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:19 am

I had a friend look at the terms of use as they are currently, he works in a legal office for a marketing firm, though he is not a lawyer. He said based on what he saw, I would be crazy to agree to those terms, or anything even close to them if I wanted to control the use of my images and prevent DM from making money with them, which as written would be completely within their rights. He said any company getting people to buy into them as written will be laughing all the way to the bank. He said if they were not changed officially on the website (in other words not to accept apologies in threads like this..) to send written notice requesting removal to the Bellevue, WA address as soon as practical by registered mail.
 
shep2
Posts: 115
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:28 am

DM generates revenue by selling First Class Memberships and advertising. Is this not enough to support their payroll? Obviously not - as their payroll is growing........

And where is the growth? I can only guess, but I think I know ...  Smile
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4727
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:54 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 177):
I would be crazy to agree to those terms

It really insults my intelligence that a company would think that we would be too ignorant to notice what they tried to pull, and think we would actually agree to that.

As mentioned above: I don't know how DM can sleep at night without thinking that the next morning hundreds of photographers may have had their photos removed.

Even if they do change their ToU, I'm not very confident in uploading my pictures here anymore.

BTW, I just got an email an hour or so ago from JP.net, confirming their dedication to the photographers and how photogs come first and their licenses to photos stays with the photog. Watch your back DM, you created a very bad name for yourselves overnight which to some (me included) won't be able to trust one word you or you're employees say from here on out.

-Matt
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:05 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 177):
I had a friend look at the terms of use as they are currently, he works in a legal office for a marketing firm, though he is not a lawyer. He said based on what he saw, I would be crazy to agree to those terms, or anything even close to them if I wanted to control the use of my images and prevent DM from making money with them, which as written would be completely within their rights.

thanks for that, as I said in the other thread, IF DM thinks this is a correct course then they can expect a bill for my travel, air fares and anything else which requires me to pay when I go spotting.

[Edited 2008-02-09 21:06:52]
 
maiznblu_757
Posts: 4952
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:05 am

Hope to see some results in the next week. If not? Adios.




In the words of the great Javier Guerrero... "Standing by for higher".

[Edited 2008-02-09 21:22:52]
 
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JeffM
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:34 am



Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 181):
Hope to see some results in the next week.

I am expecting results by Monday, Tuesday at the latest. How hard would it be for a lawyer to re-write this into something that doesn't make me feel like i'm bending over and grabbing my ankles? I've been pretty vocal against JP net over the years, but I will say that Chris K has done the right thing in backing the photographers that contribute to his site and doing so in plain english.
 
747438
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:30 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 182):
but I will say that Chris K has done the right thing in backing the photographers that contribute to his site and doing so in plain english.

I too have just received that E mail.
A lesson for DM perhaps.
 
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eksath
Crew
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:50 am



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 179):
BTW, I just got an email an hour or so ago from JP.net, confirming their dedication to the photographers and how photogs come first and their licenses to photos stays with the photog. Watch your back DM, you created a very bad name for yourselves overnight which to some (me included) won't be able to trust one word you or you're employees say from here on out.

I got that email too and I bet more than quite a few others have got it too. DM is getting checkmated.

DM better light a fire under their so called "legal department"....
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:15 am

An icepick to the cornhole of everyone who has uploaded for the last ten years.
 
flynavy
Topic Author
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:24 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 182):



Quoting Eksath (Reply 184):

Not to mention the fact that these new terms, once finalized by the legal department, MUST have been approved by Demand Media - and therefore Paulo Emanuele himself.

Very troubling indeed.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:36 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 182):
I am expecting results by Monday, Tuesday at the latest.

Given DM's track record, I'd be very surprised if that happened.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 185):
An icepick to the cornhole of everyone who has uploaded for the last ten years.

Yup. Even if DM clears this mess up, the damage done to the photographer's trust will take a very, very long time to be repaired.
 
harlequin67
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:38 am



Quoting JeffM (Reply 177):
I had a friend look at the terms of use as they are currently, he works in a legal office for a marketing firm, though he is not a lawyer. He said based on what he saw, I would be crazy to agree to those terms, or anything even close to them if I wanted to control the use of my images and prevent DM from making money with them, which as written would be completely within their rights. He said any company getting people to buy into them as written will be laughing all the way to the bank. He said if they were not changed officially on the website (in other words not to accept apologies in threads like this..) to send written notice requesting removal to the Bellevue, WA address as soon as practical by registered mail.

I did not tell my wife about this flare up, but asked her thoughts on the offending terms.

She is a well read and knowledgable person.

Her reaction, disbelieving, shocked, etc. Her words were that if you accept these conditions you LOSE all rights. Now if DM say they are not using that term today that is okay. But anytime from now until eternity they can sell your photos for any use and you are entitled to NOTHING, not even a name credit.

Example, 10 years from now DM sell the rights to CNN for use of the photos for $100 million, you see not one tiny cent, you have the satisfaction of seeing your photo with the DM copyright on CNN news bulletins, like Associated Press (AP) or Reuters photos. Nice thought.

Don't give it away!
 
User avatar
Tonimr
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 4:32 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:39 am

I haven't been able to reply to the email used to notify the new rules because there was "No such user".

Now, I've had to "buy" the rights to publicly express my opinion in this forum.

I am very concerned about this situation and, unless the Section 5 of the Terms Of Use change radically and fast, I'll be retiring my 2416 photos fom Airliners.net.

Even if they go back, I think this move has been a very bad one and difficult to forget.

Toni Marimon

[Edited 2008-02-09 23:49:51]
 
Jawed
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:47 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:47 am

How can you guys stand the popups and generally annoying ad spam on JetPhotos.net? The site is so ghetto and doesn't appear nearly as professional or usable as A.net.
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:50 am

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 179):
BTW, I just got an email an hour or so ago from JP.net, confirming their dedication to the photographers and how photogs come first and their licenses to photos stays with the photog. Watch your back DM, you created a very bad name for yourselves overnight which to some (me included) won't be able to trust one word you or you're employees say from here on out.

I received that e-mail too - and I've already begun uploading my photos over there. I expect several things will happen in the coming days - 1) others will follow, and 2) JP's hit count will start increasing dramatically. If DM doesn't reverse their course, I will yank my 495 photos from this site permanently.

I've been a part of the airliners.net family for many years now, and I hate to see this happen, but it seems inevitable at this point.

The demographic has changed. It used to be that airliners.net was the undisputed leader, and pretty much everyone in the aviation industry was familiar with airliners.net - and ONLY airliners.net. Now, more and more, I am hearing references to JP - from photographers, flight crews, aviation enthusiasts, and others. JP is more prevelant now, and looking MUCH more attractive to us photographers who built airliners.net into the site it is today.

Drew

[Edited 2008-02-09 23:55:34]
 
flynavy
Topic Author
Posts: 2179
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:48 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:52 am



Quoting Jawed (Reply 190):

Premium members on JP, unlike FirstClass on A.net, are not subjected to any off-site advertisments.
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:56 am

May I suggest that until the issue is resolved, the March 8 acceptance date is suspended or moved to a later date.

KS/codeshare
 
cpd
Posts: 6805
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting Codeshare (Reply 193):
May I suggest that until the issue is resolved, the March 8 acceptance date is suspended or moved to a later date.

KS/codeshare

I would also like to request that. It is the most reasonable thing to do.

Everyone is very concerned about the implications of these changes, or otherwise outraged. Suspension or postponement of the acceptance date would likely be seen as a sign of good will from the site-owners.
 
eadster
Posts: 2125
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:31 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:15 am

All this and the damn site still doesn't work properly. If this ain't dollar hunting I don't know what is!

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 192):
Premium members on JP, unlike FirstClass on A.net, are not subjected to any off-site advertisments.

JP will be rubbing their hands together after this...

I would encourage all, to not have anything of any significance in the Queue until its sorted...

[Edited 2008-02-10 00:19:35]
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:17 am

Well, there goes my career selling photos from this site.

Quoting Jawed (Reply 190):
How can you guys stand the popups and generally annoying ad spam on JetPhotos.net?

It's not the pop up or spam on JP, it's the guy that runs that site that treats us well, unlike DM.

[Edited 2008-02-10 00:19:30]
 
bjcc
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:29 am

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:20 am

I have to say that caution is still required.

What Paulo said was:

"Please be patient and I will fix this situation.We will provide a summary to everyone that explains everything and note the changes in language..."


There is nothing in that line that undertakes to amend the clause in question. Sure there is an undertaking to provide an explanation. For me that isn't sufficent, its current meaning & implication is crystal clear. Yes, I accept the current intentions are not to missuse our photos, but things and people can change.

The last part 'Note the changes in langauge' is not nessesarily an undertaking to change or amend. Although to be fair, that could be the result of a hurried message sent on the move, or the need to get a message out quickly to calm things down.

Nor is there an undertaking to withdraw the new TOU until they are amended or updated. So apart from the assurances, which I am sure are genuine, nothing has changed.
 
shep2
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:29 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:25 am

Airliners.net has been the KING of aviation photos for a LONG TIME...

I believe Demand Media will do a great job of damage control - they will clean up this mess.

Ever since they took this site over from Johan - they've been struggling - technical issues - whatever...

Hopefully - they will FINALLY FIGURE IT ALL OUT - SINK or SWIM.
 
Tommy Mogren
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:30 pm

RE: New Terms - What It Means For Photographers

Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:35 am

DM made bad move. Releasing these rules without checking with it's photographers is hitting them back BIG now.

What was the rush ? Why releasing it if it wasn't properly reviewed internally ?

Of course it was reviewed internally. Don't get fooled into believing something else.
Perhaps DM was hoping this one would slip by un-noticed, I don't know.

And releasing it on a friday so that the full staff can't be online to answer question or clarifications for the whole weekend is outrageous.

The word is spreading within the aviation community.

Read this aviation blog for a effective run-down of the new rules and what they mean to you as a photographer with photos on A.net

http://www.spottersblog.com/fcblog/1912/Copyright.html



Tommy Mogren
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