Uploading And The Queue

beechcraft · Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:49 am

Hi Everyone,

you might have noticed that we´ve been trying to keep the Queue low in the past few weeks ( i think we had it down to 1800 for a short period) and while this of course requires a major effort by the screening team, you as an uploder can help us, too.

When the Q gets low, the daily uploads rise. It´s a law of nature, it seems. When we had it at 1800 we saw around 1600 photos uploaded on each of the next three days, almost double the amount we normally see here.

Of course we highly appreciate high upload numbers, don´t get me wrong.
But with these huge numbers getting in, it´s almost impossible to keep the Queue down. It feels a bit like being a salmon trying to get upstream (without ever getting there...)

Now, while we had some real gems uploaded, we also screened a lot of low quality shots recently, as people are going through their archives, carelessly uploading anything they can find, or trying their luck on already rejected shots.

Please make sure that your uploads have the usual high quality, upload with care and do some prescreening. Don´t just upload, because you have free slots left and the turnaround time is so short.

We all benefit from a low Q with more high Quality images. Screening gets easier, acceptance ratios get better and we have more great photos added to the Database each day.

I hope i didn´t sound too much like a school teacher,

best regards and, a bit late, a happy new year,

Denis

fergulmcc · Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:00 am

Quoting Beechcraft (Thread starter):
Please make sure that your uploads have the usual high quality, upload with care and do some prescreening. Don´t just upload, because you have free slots left and the turnaround time is so short.

Spending more time in the Pre Screening threads would also help Denis. There are very few posts from Screeners in there.

Might help as well.

Fergul sun

Stil · Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:38 pm

Hi.

Quoting Beechcraft (Thread starter):
people are going through their archives, carelessly uploading anything they can find, or trying their luck on already rejected shots

The 'I need to have something queued' feeling is strong.
It's a good advise, Denis. I must admit I thought it a couple of days ago. I was searching through my archives looking for something to upload, and there's always some pictures you think deserves a frame on A.net. Now I don't have a picture on the queue, but I'm under the impression that I need to send something, although I haven't got A.net quality pictures to upload.

Quoting Beechcraft (Thread starter):
Don´t just upload, because you have free slots left and the turnaround time is so short.

Exactly my thoughts.

Stil

aero145 · Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:25 pm

I thought this thread would say anything about the problem I’m having:

I simply can’t upload! I add a picture with all the right things filled out and it loads and loads and simply loads until I get too tired of waiting so I close the window.

This maybe a personal problem? Seen noone talk about it yet at least.

ake0404ar · Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:10 pm

Quoting Beechcraft (Thread starter):
we also screened a lot of low quality shots recently

Denis, my pal, didn't you promise it stays between you and me.......now you went public.

V.

acontador · Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:18 pm

Hi All,

Additional to above, please make sure you actually improve noticeably your pictures before re-uploading a previously rejected one. With the current low queue, we have an increasing number of re-uploads that, mildly said, don't look like have been substantially improved.

Please remember to carefully read the rejection message, as it is our way of telling you what problems we see in your picture. We may have not pointed out at all problems, so don't assume you just need to improve according to the rejection reasons. Also, always pre-screen yourself and try to be as critical as possible!

DiamondFlyer · Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:54 pm

I've been thinking about posting this for a while. But, we all know it was just Christmas time, and some of us (me included) just got new camera gear. While, I know this isn't really an excuse, perhaps the sudden increase in photos in the que could be attributed to an increase in people who are interested in getting some shots in the database? Any way to tell if those who are uploading shots now are new, or is that info not available?

Just me thinking out loud for a while

-DiamondFlyer

whisperjet · Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:12 pm

Hi,

imo it's just an inflation (another one for those from UK, Iceland and many other countries cheerful

). With the short screening times the queue slots just do not have the same value as they have when screening takes more than 2 weeks.

Stefan

topgun3 · Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:21 pm

I have to say that the screeners have been doing an extraordinary job over the holidays trying to keep up with the influx of new uploads. I know a couple of screeners personally, and I imagine that the time they spend reviewing uploads could be better spend working on their own photos, but instead they sacrifice their time to serve the other A.net members.

My suggestion would be to revise the upload quota that would reward the people who prescreen their work better and punish the ones who waste screeners' time.

We know how the combination of acceptance ratio and # of photos in DB gives you an upload limit, but what if there was a third component. Lets say only so many uploads allowed per 30 day rolling period.

Example: 100 pic in DB, 40% UL ratio. That would give you 15 pic UL limit.
Now lets say we would figure out the max. uploads per 30 day period by quadrupling the UL limit (15) to 60 and then multiplying it by acceptance ratio (40%)....which would work out to 24 ULs in a month.

Example 2: 2000 pics in DB, 94% UL ratio. That would give 40 pic UL limit.
Using the above formula (40x4=160, 160x0.94=150)......you would get a max ULs per month to 150.

Now compare this to current system, presuming each person can maximize their uploads and has all their photos screened every 5 days....you would go through 6x15=90 pics from the Not-so-good uploader (or 54 rejections), and the better uploader in theory could post 6x40=240 pics (or only 14 rejections).

The new system would limit the number of rejected pictures from the Not-so-good uploaded to 14 rejections (vs 54 now).

When this "not-so-good" uploader works harder at fixing his/her pictures properly....his/her monthly uploading limit would start climbing to reflect the quality.

Just my 2 cents worth

topgun3 · Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:31 pm

Another suggestion:

Have some sort of peer review process that would allow the A.net community "pre-screen" photos for members who would like to have their work critiqued. This wouldn't involve screeners (therefore not waste their time). Members would have the option to have their work viewed by other A.nettes while it is in the upload queue....and receive feedback. Based on the feedback they could decide to delete their upload before it gets screened if some obvious faults get discovered by other members.

I know this would involve a fairly major change to the site, but they say "change is good".

No charge for this idea either Smile

codeshare · Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:24 am

...providing that the normal queue screening time is long ;> We don't want to wait longer for the screening do we?

KS/codeshare

cpd · Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:01 am

Quoting TopGun3 (Reply 9):
Have some sort of peer review process that would allow the A.net community "pre-screen" photos for members who would like to have their work critiqued. This wouldn't involve screeners (therefore not waste their time). Members would have the option to have their work viewed by other A.nettes while it is in the upload queue....and receive feedback. Based on the feedback they could decide to delete their upload before it gets screened if some obvious faults get discovered by other members.

We sort of have this already - it's called a pre-screening thread.

Developing what you say requires:

- Coding
- Development testing
- QA testing
- UAT testing
- Migration to production
- Hope to god that it all works and the UAT team did their job properly.

Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:06 am

Quoting TopGun3 (Reply 9):

You better not charge for it as it has been discussed extensively already, and that idea has been vented.
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...tion_photography/read.main/324051/

And there is a peer preview already in the Pre-Screen thread.
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...tion_photography/read.main/323879/

topgun3 · Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:35 pm

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12):
You better not charge for it as it has been discussed extensively already, and that idea has been vented.
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...tion_photography/read.main/324051/

Obviously there is still more need for discussion, otherwise it wouldn't be coming up, would it?

Quoting JohnKrist (Reply 12):
And there is a peer preview already in the Pre-Screen thread.
https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...3879/

I know about "Pre-screening threads"....but they are very cumbersome as a way of getting things done. If everyone who wanted Pre-screening done started (or continued) a thread, all we would discuss here is pre-screening....oh...maybe like we are doing right here.

I'm trying to offer some doable ideas...not just complain and then reject.

DiamondFlyer · Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:19 am

I guess I should thank the screeners for everything they do. As a new photographer, I know I'm not taking the greatest quality shots, but with their help, I will do my best to get better.

I haven't been here long, and just thought of something. Maybe it has been done, maybe not. But, maybe one of the screeners could do a "trip report" on the screening process. Like, take us step by step through it, or even just make it a short video. I think that would change how some of us new guys went about submitting stuff. Maybe this has been done before, and I've just missed it.

Just a thought
-DiamondFlyer

topgun3 · Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:02 pm

Hey D-Flyer,

I agree with you....nobody is "perfect" right off the bat. I remember when I started a couple of years ago and fixed up a few pictures and got all of them rejected. Just recently I went back and looked at those photos and I was horrified by what I considered UPLOADABLE material.

Since then I have fixed about 3000 photos and got about 2000 of them into airliners. Even after so many tries I still second guess myself sometimes on what should I do with a particular picture....I'm still learning and experimenting.
There are guys out there I know that think I'm the guru at fixing pictures and want me to explain to them step by step how it is done......and I tell them, even if I give you a step by step procedure, it will not matter, because each picture requires different approach. It is more Art than Science.

Another point that a lot of people seem to forget is your computer and what hardware you use. Things like Colour, exposure, Soft, oversharpened etc. refusals can be avoided if you have your system setup correctly. I use Colour calibration device for my screen, purchased a pro level LCD monitor and turned off pixel smoothing because many times it masks jaggies when editing your photos.

Anyways....I always try to do the best job I can, and many times I don't fix up an interesting photo just because I know it will not meet the stringent A.net standards.

Mark K.

Jetfreak · Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:29 pm

what about one day a year were it's not possible to upload anything, which would be a holiday for the screeners.

wilco737 · Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:32 pm

Quoting Jetfreak (Reply 16):
what about one day a year were it's not possible to upload anything, which would be a holiday for the screeners.

As the a.net screeners are volounteers, they can take a day off whenever they want to. And this doesn't affect the upload. You can always upload and when one screener take a day off, then there are still enough screeners to screen the pictures.

wilco737
cool

eadster · Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:00 pm

Quoting Acontador (Reply 5):
We may have not pointed out at all problems, so don't assume you just need to improve according to the rejection reasons.

Without you helping us, I find it hard that we can help you (fully) in your request as easily if you don't let us know all the reasons.

I know you guys have done a good job, and that is appreciated, but it kinda works both ways.

Fresh from a CRM course and communication from all parties is the key!

[Edited 2009-01-10 15:01:16]

Jetfreak · Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:32 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 17):

oh! i didn't no that. is it a full-time job?

conoramoia · Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:54 am

I don't think(for me)uploading the same photo more than once is trying your luck unless you have haven't gone and edited it.

Suggestion-
Why can't A.net team up with other aviation website with their own screener's and ease the amount of screening per screener.

OR

even just get well known photographers(willing photographers) who know good aspects of any photo?

Thanks for reading,

Conor.

FYODOR · Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:42 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 17):
As the a.net screeners are volounteers

Thats the point I can't understand clearly. Still A.net was not a commercial project it was reasonable - advanced photographers had spent their time for the common socity benefit. Since DM announced A.net as its business - why can't it pay (say parttime not fulltime) screeners some reasonable fees. It is actualy hard job to do - just imagine - instead of enjoing time from processing and uloading own great photos guys have to spend hours to work with others shots - as Denis mentioned - hundreds not always good or interesting shots.

Well, I understand that nobody force people to joing the screeners team, however many of us got our own jobs voluntary but we rewarded financialy for it.

I don't know all particulars indeed - just some thougts aloud.

Regarding Denis message - I try not to book all my queue limit when the queue is not very long - I think it is good practice of 'self-restrictions'. However I check my old archives too. First reason - winter is less busy time for photography, especially here - at the North. Second (might it will partly excuse me) - I was too busy at past Summer and Autumn and simply have missed or forgot many not bad shots were made. Wink

Regards,

Fyodor

wilco737 · Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:47 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 21):

Thats the point I can't understand clearly. Still A.net was not a commercial project it was reasonable - advanced photographers had spent their time for the common socity benefit. Since DM announced A.net as its business - why can't it pay (say parttime not fulltime) screeners some reasonable fees. It is actualy hard job to do - just imagine - instead of enjoing time from processing and uloading own great photos guys have to spend hours to work with others shots - as Denis mentioned - hundreds not always good or interesting shots.

Sure, the screeners have a tough job, no doubt. Just to mention that all crew member have a tough job here. Since I started as Forum Moderator in August 2008 I received 12,000 emails! I have to work through them all as well. And I am sure the support crew and the editors have a whole bunch work to do as well.
We decided to join in as volounteers and I am sure most of us enjoy it. We have all our real life which has priority for most of us but we spend some time online here as we all enjoy airliners.net. And many of us upload pictures as well (like I do) or post in the forum and add their opinions to discussions. So a.net is for us a hobby and during that time we do some screening, deleting duck

or database editing.

wilco737
cool

ThierryD · Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:43 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 22):
We decided to join in as volounteers and I am sure most of us enjoy it. We have all our real life which has priority for most of us but we spend some time online here as we all enjoy airliners.net. And many of us upload pictures as well (like I do) or post in the forum and add their opinions to discussions. So a.net is for us a hobby and during that time we do some screening, deleting or database editing.

Fully agree, and not to forget as well that with money also comes more pressure meaning that if we'd get paid, DM could and probably would expect us to work a certain minimum amount of time per week, to only name one of the possible consequences of paid crewmembers. That however sometimes just is not possible.
I believe we're all better off by not being paid, enjoying the associated freedoms and only doing this "job" because we enjoy it.

Thierry

FYODOR · Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:07 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 23):
I believe we're all better off by not being paid, enjoying the associated freedoms and only doing this "job" because we enjoy it.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 22):
So a.net is for us a hobby and during that time we do some screening, deleting or database editing.

Thanks, mates! I've got the point Wink

Regards,

Fyodor

viv · Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:10 pm

According to the counters, no shots have been screened in the past 5 hours.

Why not?

wilco737 · Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:15 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 25):
According to the counters, no shots have been screened in the past 5 hours.

Screening has stopped until the bugs has been fixed. We want to avoid that pictures get accepted but not uploaded and they lose views. The time where the 24 hours start is the acceptance time and not the uploaded time. And we don't want anybody to lose views... Well, some already did yesterday Sad

wilco737

timdegroot · Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:16 pm

Hi Guys

We're not able to screen at the moment because they're busy working on the database. Shots that have been added a few hours ago have probably not appeared on the db yet and are on hold till they are pushed.

Be patient. We dont like a rising queue as much as the next guy but it's best these problems are straightened out first before we go back to work

Tim

viv · Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:26 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 27):
Be patient. We dont like a rising queue as much as the next guy but it's best these problems are straightened out first before we go back to work

Understood, agreed - and thanks for the info.

calisam · Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 pm

I've had many rejections, most of understandable and a few weren't. One rejection in particular.. the screener actually left a short comment on what to do to fix it. I can't even tell you how helpful it was and really appreciate it.
I think if more of those types of comments were left there would perhaps be fewer re-uploads or appeals.... or even new uploads with the same faults.

Jez · Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:25 pm

Quoting CaliSam (Reply 29):
.. the screener actually left a short comment on what to do to fix it. I can't even tell you how helpful it was and really appreciate it.

Beware screeners bearing gifts. I'm afraid that my experience with such comments is that after correcting and re-uploading, a multitude of other faults are miraculously spotted thereby wasting both my time and the screeners time. I now have a policy of never re-working no matter how great I think the shot is.

Chukcha · Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:16 am

Quoting Jez (Reply 30):
a multitude of other faults are miraculously spotted thereby

My experience is different. Almost every time there is a screener's comment about something, it is the only thing that needs fixing, and the photo is accepted next time around.

Plainplane · Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:34 am

Quoting Jez (Reply 30):
Beware screeners bearing gifts. I'm afraid that my experience with such comments is that after correcting and re-uploading, a multitude of other faults are miraculously spotted thereby wasting both my time and the screeners time. I now have a policy of never re-working no matter how great I think the shot is.

I had a similar occurrence, after a shot was rejected for some reasons, then I uploaded the unedited version and one reason disappeared and was replaced with motif. Then it was fixed up by someone that offered to help me with it, then the only reason was motif and there was a note included that the motif issue was unfixable.

However the first time the note was a big help and that contributed to getting my first and only photo that I have on A.net.

[Edited 2009-01-20 19:45:46]

timdegroot · Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:13 pm

We always try to list all reasons the first time, but that doesnt always happen. We work under great pressure and have to screen as quickly as possible. So if we see a shot is soft we often reject it for soft. What we dont do in that case is check for dustspots for example because we're rejecting anyway and chechking for dust takes another 20 seconds.

Also when changing one thing while editing other problems can come up. if you're lightening a shot it can become grainy in the process. if you sharpen it can become grainy etc. So while these issues have not shown up on the first screening they can come up on the second screening

Tim

EZEIZA · Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:18 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 33):
We always try to list all reasons the first time, but that doesnt always happen. We work under great pressure and have to screen as quickly as possible. So if we see a shot is soft we often reject it for soft.

Fair enough, but I guess motive or any other non fixable reasons should be a priority, so then no reupload is attempted

Jez · Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I recall one shot that was rejected with the encouraging comment 'Cool shot, but needs a little extra kick of sharpening. Please fix and re-upload'. Well I gave it an extra kick of sharpening (nothing else) and re-uploaded. It was subsequently rejected for colour and a few other reasons (can't recall exactly, but grainy was not one of them). Never again. You can trick me once....

leadingedge · Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:27 am

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 31):

Beware screeners bearing gifts. I'm afraid that my experience with such comments is that after correcting and re-uploading, a multitude of other faults are miraculously spotted thereby wasting both my time and the screeners time. I now have a policy of never re-working no matter how great I think the shot is.

Yes it is frustrating when this happens but come on ... ....it is your job to make sure that your pictures are of the right quality before you upload. Just because one screener points out one fault does not mean that a second or third screener will not find another problem. When you re-edit you need to look at all apects of your image for anything that might result in a rejection and not simply improve the fault/s that were pointed out in your original rejection. That goes for all sites not just A-Net.

leadingedge · Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:09 pm

Ref Reply 36

I am not sure what happened but that quote should be attributed to reply 30 By Jez

Not sure if I made a mistake or if there is another bug in the system.

Jez · Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:00 pm

Quoting LeadingEdge (Reply 36):
Yes it is frustrating when this happens but come on ... ....it is your job to make sure that your pictures are of the right quality before you upload.

Your point appears to be based on the premise that users upload shots that they do not think are the right quality. I'm sure I'm not unusual in thinking that each shot I upload has the right quality. Why else would I bother to upload?

Quoting LeadingEdge (Reply 36):
Just because one screener points out one fault does not mean that a second or third screener will not find another problem.

Quite.

Quoting LeadingEdge (Reply 36):
When you re-edit you need to look at all apects of your image for anything that might result in a rejection and not simply improve the fault/s that were pointed out in your original rejection. That goes for all sites not just A-Net.

Given that in the first instance I thought the shot had the right quality, why would I suspect that other things were amiss?

leadingedge · Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:28 pm

Jez

As has been mentioned elsewhere, a screener does not have the time to give an exhaustive critique of your work but will point out the primary issues. The fact that a screener has found one/two … issues that you did not spot at the time of uploading should surely lead you to consider what else might be wrong with your edit. Most people try asking for advice and then rework the picture. How else are you going to learn how to improve your acceptance rate when by your own admission you can’t recognise all of the potential problems your image might have in the eyes of the screeners.

Jez · Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:04 pm

Quoting LeadingEdge (Reply 39):

Jez

As has been mentioned elsewhere, a screener does not have the time to give an exhaustive critique of your work but will point out the primary issues.

I think you are missing my point. I'm neither asking, or expecting screeners to give an exhaustive critique. In fact, if you read my first two messages you will find that I've found comments from screeners to be counterproductive (albeit given with good intentions). If improving your acceptance rate is a big issue (I'm fairly indifferent towards it myself), I'm sure it is quite possible to do so just by reading the standard rejection reasons.

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