Creative Images

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:13 pm

Hi All

Thought I would start a thread where we could once again discuss creative images. We're getting some uploads already but I think we could get many more. I think a lot of people are still scared of images that would break our rules too much. Before submitting those it might be a good idea to discuss them here if you dont want to risk your acceptance ratio. I'd like to have more images from more people.

As you may or may not know all creative images we come across are looked at by around 10 screeners before we make a decision to reject or accept so my input here would just be my personal views on the image.

Some recent ones I really liked

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Photo © James P Matthews

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Photo © Maciek Wolanski

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Photo © Pedro Becken - Porto Spotter

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Photo © Johan K

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Photo © Anton Dovbush

Tim

JakTrax · Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:32 pm

I'm still wary Tim - I uploaded a few I thought were pretty creative but they were rejected for various motive issues. I think the word 'creative' needs defining here really. It seems to me that, although a shot may be creative, if the screeners don't personally like it they'll simply reject.

Karl

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:59 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 1):
It seems to me that, although a shot may be creative, if the screeners don't personally like it they'll simply reject.

Yes that is actually true. Creative would be hard to define I think, I wouldnt even know where to start.

Like I said, images are discussed by a fairly large group of screeners and we make decisions based on how many people like an image. Sometimes one or two dont like while 8 others think it's a great shot and sometimes those numbers are reversed. In the end it's the same as with our other rules, to a degree those can be objective but there is a certain subjective element as well where we have agreed to reject for this or that. That too is a screener's decision and some people may disagree, even within the team, but we try to screen to de agreed upon standards.

Dont think we can ever get a clear cut rule on this because it will remain subjective. Speaking for me personally I dont like some creatve images that were added and I loved some that were rejected, and I'm sure everyone else feels both ways too.

I think that's why discussing images here would be productive, to see if we can at least try to give some directive on what we think works and what doesnt. So while we cannot get a clear cut ruling on creative images I think we can at least provide as many examples of rejections/additions to see what we think works and what doesnt.

Keep in mind that almost all our rules can be bent when it comes to creative images, except for the obvious rules like border etc.

Tim

Chukcha · Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:08 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Thread starter):
all creative images we come across are looked at by around 10 screeners before we make a decision to reject or accept

Couldn't that be why we see so few new creative images in the DB? Views of 10 different people at what's creative and what's not could differ vastly. Even the regular screening for straightforward defects is subjective; and the criteria for creativity is not really an exact science.

Tim, do you remember the discussion around your first image with which you started the "creative revolution" on the site? People's opinions about that shot were divided about fifty-fifty. If it was a team of screeners, it wouldn't stand a chance.

With the regular screening, it only takes one screener to reject a shot. How many screeners out of 10 does it take to reject a creative shot? Also just one?

Andrei

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:18 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 3):
With the regular screening, it only takes one screener to reject a shot. How many screeners out of 10 does it take to reject a creative shot? Also just one?

No actually any creative shot cannot be rejected until many screeners have seen it.

Yes I remember the discussion Smile

When we are divided it doesnt take one screener to reject it. 50-50 images will probably get in. But if say only 2 out of ten screeners like it it will probably be rejected.

Before we used to send really difficult images to Paulo to make a decision on, like Johan did in the past as the owner of the site. Sadly of course that option is no longer available to us.

Actually the word creative is probably misplaced, I think for lack of a better word. An image doesnt have to be creative, as long as it's just "stunning" or "different" it's to be considered in this manner. Sorry if this doesnt make sense, cant really explain it that well Smile

Like the image above by Anton I personally dont think is really creative but I do think it's an unusual and good looking image

Chukcha · Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:20 pm

Tim, while I was typing my post, you posted yours, and it does answer my question to some extent.

Chukcha · Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:36 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 4):

No actually any creative shot cannot be rejected until many screeners have seen it.

But what if it wasn't even recognised as such by the first screener and simply rejected for 'motive'?

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:48 pm

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 6):
But what if it wasn't even recognised as such by the first screener and simply rejected for 'motive'?

yes a possibility I admit but we are all aware of what is "different" from what we usually accept and unless the quality is truly awful we do not reject those even if one personally doesnt like it. In fact that is our whole policy, to put a.net's standards above our personal standards. Every screened accepts shots he personally doesnt like, for me personally for instance common sideons shot in cloudy weather, but a.net does accept.

Tim

apgphoto · Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:17 pm

I hadn't noticed that Tu154 shot before you posted it in this thread Tim .

That's a stunning shot congrats to the snapper Anton

eksath · Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:00 pm

Tim,

Thanks for the thread again!

However, as mentioned above we have enough rejections with "motiv" that these "creative" shots push "motiv" rejections to Nth power.

So what happens when the first screening yields a screener who deems it worthy of a "motiv" rejection? Does this mean that if the first screener deems it a "motiv" rejection does he pass it on to the rest of the group to get a census? My understanding is that one needs only one vote to reject and if that is the first person then the shot is canned PERIOD.Hence, in my experience, I feel I am just setting my self up for a "motiv" rejection right off the bat. I hope I get my point across.

It is my perception that the stars have to really line up for these shots to sneak into the database i.e. the first screener must like it.

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:16 pm

Hi Suresh

The way it usually works is like this. Screeners do not HQ or reject a shot like these but leave a second opinion with a comment

screener1: nice shot but bit soft

screener2: crop doesnt work for me

screener3: HQ for me

screener4: great images

etc etc until about 10 screeners have had their say

Then it is passed to the HS. If 9 of the other screeners liked the image it's an obvious acceptance, if 8 people wanted to reject for motive then most likely it will be rejected for motive. For those 50/50 shots the HS will usually discuss. We have 3 HS so if 2 of them pass it it will be added.

Hope this gives some insight in how we handle this now. We thought this would be the best way to be fair to all images.

Tim

lochgilp · Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:39 pm

Can i ask what aspect ratios are acceptable as the crop used could fall, to some extent, under the being 'creative' guise? Is it purely 1:1, 3:2 and 4:3?

This isn't a moan based on my rejection just a request for clarification so i know for future. I'm actually glad that my recropped shot was accepted as i know the quality was marginal so thank you for accepting it Smile

EZEIZA · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:01 pm

I'm sorry because i appreciate the effort and idea of this thread, but i am still not convinced nor happy with this method. 10 screeners decide if the shot works, and I see 2 problems with that right away:
1) 10 people can't decide on the creative aspect of a picture. No one really can, but 10 people is nothing. I understan screeners' experience and talent is perfect for finding technical flaws, but not on creativiy.
2) Screeners screening their own creativity? not good.

again, I made an effort in these months, but something is still wrong with the concept and the way it's been put in practice.

rgds

deaphen · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:23 pm

Another question, does creative mean a creative shot from the beginning, or also the way its been edited?

Take of example this image, i would love to upload it.... but will be rejected. Opinions? I am not asking for prescreening, just trying to weigh the extent to which we can be creative.

regards
Nitin

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:23 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
1) 10 people can't decide on the creative aspect of a picture. No one really can, but 10 people is nothing. I understan screeners' experience and talent is perfect for finding technical flaws, but not on creativiy.
2) Screeners screening their own creativity? not good.

1000 people couldnt decide, they'd probably end up divided along the same lines. We have limited time and resources, understand that we cannot let every shot see by more than halfthe crew. Even more importantly please understand that this site has rules laid down by the screeners, not by anyone else. That's why we screened creative and non-creative shots, because we make the rules. The alternative to this is letting the public decide, but I dont think that would be such a great idea either, you'd end up with eurovision songfestival practices Smile

We are NOT screening our own creativity! Dont know why you would think that but we cannot screen our own shots!

Tim

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:40 pm

Hi Nitin

A shot like that would still be unacceptable. So yes a shot would have to be creative "out of the camera", creative editing is not allowed at the moment, although a complete B&W image is acceptable in some cases.

Tim

sovietjet · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:46 pm

I tried uploading several creative shots early on when this rule was started but they were all rejected for motive. I think the first screener didn't see them as creative while I certainly thought they were outside the box.

May I suggest a "creative" category which you can tick while uploading? This category would not show up on photo searches but would be used just for the upload process so that the screener knows what your intention with the motive is. Hence "the stars don't have to line up" as one person put it.

deaphen · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 15):
A shot like that would still be unacceptable. So yes a shot would have to be creative "out of the camera", creative editing is not allowed at the moment, although a complete B&W image is acceptable in some cases.

Thanks!

Nitin

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:51 pm

Hi Sovietjet

Any chance you could show the images here, might give some valuable input.

You can always leave a comment with an upload explaining why it should be considered creative. Just ticking a creative category will not work I think, again unless you can explain why it is creative, or why the shot works.

Just saying an image is creative and not explaining any further doesnt mean it will be treated as such by the screeners.

If creative images do get rejected, and you feel it was not justified, please consider the appeal function.

Tim

EZEIZA · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:53 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 14):
That's why we screened creative and non-creative shots, because we make the rules

Agreed and accepted, but that's the point about the creativity, it breaks all the rules that you (the screeners) implemented, and uses new rules based on ... well, on nothing really, since the technical aspect is less important (technical as to "common" a.net standards).
When it comes to creativity, you don't screen a picture, you judge it and admire it's art or hate it all together, but all the other rules don't apply (or rather, don't need to apply).

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 14):
The alternative to this is letting the public decide, but I dont think that would be such a great idea either, you'd end up with eurovision songfestival practices

I'm inclined to agree with you on this one. But there has to be another way, more open and that leads to less speculation on to who is getting their pictures in and why.

Maybe have a separate webpage; "creativeairliners.net" and have a whole new concept Wink

EZEIZA · Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:56 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 18):
Just saying an image is creative and not explaining any further doesnt mean it will be treated as such by the screeners.

I did, and I explained, and still got motive and another "common" rejection (I think it was distance) ... and I appealed providing the example of a similar shot (as far as motive) but the appeal was rejected without a comment.

rgds

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:01 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 19):
Agreed and accepted, but that's the point about the creativity, it breaks all the rules that you (the screeners) implemented, and uses new rules based on ... well, on nothing really, since the technical aspect is less important (technical as to "common" a.net standards).
When it comes to creativity, you don't screen a picture, you judge it and admire it's art or hate it all together, but all the other rules don't apply (or rather, don't need to apply).

Yes we agree that creative images can break one or more or even all our rules. There are certainly a large number of images in the db that do so.

But that doesnt mean we will throw all our standards overboard when it comes to creative images.

The technical aspect does remain important, primarily because we strive for the highest quality images. Now for certain images that means we will let standards slide quite a bit, for example on difficult nightshots, a2a images, pics in bad weather, or 1200mm shots. For other shots, creative ones too the technical requirements will remain high. Say you shoot a creative shot at 50mm in full sunlight. There would be no reason why that image should be very grainy or out of focus. Even thought it may be a nice image it would still be rejected for grainy/blurry.

Thanks for the input so far. I'm trying to explain our policies a little better since I was not sure they were clear. Also hoping to see some more images we can comment on.

Also the current process whereby we let around 10 people see the image was just recently agreed upon. We specifically did it because we felt 1 or two people couldnt decide on these often very difficult to screen images.

Tim

SFO2SVO · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:06 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 16):
May I suggest a "creative" category which you can tick while uploading? This category would not show up on photo searches but would be used just for the upload process so that the screener knows what your intention with the motive is. Hence "the stars don't have to line up" as one person put it.

I like the idea.

New category will ensure that images are not rejected by the first screener and, of course, will generate some abuse. The penalty should probably be same as for abusing priority category.

...or was priority category removed because it was abused too much?...

EZEIZA · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:14 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 21):
The technical aspect does remain important, primarily because we strive for the highest quality images.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 21):
For other shots, creative ones too the technical requirements will remain high

I'm not saying you'll let anything pass by because it's creative, but some of the classic a.net rules are completely overlooked in many (most) of the creative, such as distance, for example.

In any case, and again appreciating the idea behind this thread, the current system (although i admit 10 screeners is better than 1 or 2) is still a potential for controversy and suspicion, as well as all the rest of the things I have mentioned (artistic cant' be screened, etc.)

rgds and sorry to bother, but i feel I need to have a saying at this as I was in the first thread one of the big critics; about this system and about some of the pictures accepted.

spencer · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:16 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 18):
Just saying an image is creative and not explaining any further doesnt mean it will be treated as such by the screeners.

But Tim, with your experience (the screeners, I mean), you'd surely be able to see whether an image is creative or not, the addition of the photog's comment that it is such a shot would only help to serve as a reminder? Why would it need a full blown explanation?

Spence.

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:23 pm

Quoting Spencer (Reply 24):
But Tim, with your experience (the screeners, I mean), you'd surely be able to see whether an image is creative or not, the addition of the photog's comment that it is such a shot would only help to serve as a reminder? Why would it need a full blown explanation?

Hi Spence. yes I think we are able to judge pics on their merit. But it never hurts I think to point out certain things. I always appreciate comments to screeners, such as explaining why an image can look unlevel or why a belly looks washed e.g. because there was snow on the ground etc.

I dont think any of the above images would have needed an explanation, those clearly work very well but there are always those bordercases where a little note could help.

Tim

unattendedbag · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:23 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 21):
Yes we agree that creative images can break one or more or even all our rules. There are certainly a large number of images in the db that do so.

I'd like to see a shot that breaks "ALL" the rules and can still be considered creative and acceptable.

Even this shot was rejected for level the first time around.

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Photo © John Padgett

mirage · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:27 pm

To tell you the truth, I don't understand what Airliners.net wants, I send a photo that is creative for me but the first screener looking at that photo doesn't like it, so, instantely, I don't have a chance. At the same time I see side on photos in the photographers choice, or clearly non creative images, this for me is frustrating and demoralizing.

I'll just continue to upload as usual, be it creative or not or whatever.

Luis

spencer · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:31 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 25):
But it never hurts I think to point out certain things

Agreed, Tim!
Spence.

timdegroot · Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:32 pm

Quoting Mirage (Reply 27):
At the same time I see side on photos in the photographers choice, or clearly non creative images, this for me is frustrating and demoralizing.

Hi Luis, that is out of the screeners control Smile

Keep uploading your images, you certainly had some nice creative ones accepted.

John I love that shot, one of the best recently IMO, but yes it does show that another screener did not like it and someone else did. Although I think that image was added before the "10 screener rule" and yes we made a mistake at that time by treating shots like these the same as we would others in the sense that if one screener saw a flaw he would reject, which is not a good approach for the more subjective side of things. We had to figure out the best approach to creative images at that time. I dont think we've found the ideal appraoch yet but it's certainly better than before.

Tim

Stil · Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:15 pm

Hi everybody.

Thanks for rising this thread. I tried to start a similar one time ago, but I was requested to post on 'post-screening' megathread.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 15):
creative editing is not allowed at the moment

Could you tell what a "creative editing" means? I have seen accepted pictures with creative crops lately and i have to admit I liked them a lot. Dou you screeners have a guideline of what is an acceptable creative editing or not?

Quoting Mirage (Reply 27):
I send a photo that is creative for me but the first screener looking at that photo doesn't like it, so, instantely, I don't have a chance

I have to say here I had a picture rejected for 'motive' I didn't comment anything on submitting, but it was accepted after appealing. I invoked the creative rule and explained what I wanted to show on appealing and it got eventually accepted.
Don't see hence the need of creating a 'creative' category having a 'comment to screener' box.

Stil

ake0404ar · Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:20 pm

Creativity is still so subjective and unless you can objectify it (which I can't at the moment) it will be still subjective.

The one Tim posted above are excellent examples. Some people may like it (creative) and other don't. Same with the screeners, but this has been the case since day one.

I am for one absolutely in that creative corner and I'd love to see more images of that nature.

Where does "creative" start and where does it end?

As far as I am concerned, this is a picture by picture case!

Nevertheless I would encourage you guys to come up with more stuff like the above.

This is what the casual a.net visitor wants to see and what we have been fighting for the last couple of years.

Vasco

ZakHH · Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 31):
Creativity is still so subjective and unless you can objectify it (which I can't at the moment) it will be still subjective.

Well said. I'd even say it is impossible to objectify creativity.

In my eyes, there is only 2 alternatives: acceptances and rejections under the creative rule will remain subject to controversial discussions. Or this site has to go without creative shots again.

Personally, I do like them a lot.

raedervision · Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:00 am

Tim, I'm glad you started this. Personally I think airplanes and art have a lot in common and creative photographs can inspire all of us. If a creative photograph makes most of the screeners go "wow" or "that's interesting" then maybe the rest of us would like to see it. If it makes you go wow but there is obviously something technically wrong with it then maybe we don't need to see it. I don't think you will get a lot of these but if you do then maybe it needs some more thought. I agree some explanation would help the screeners job considerably. My two cents. Jim

ake0404ar · Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:24 am

Quoting UnattendedBag (Reply 26):
Even this shot was rejected for level the first time around.

John, care to explain what a "leveling issue" has to do with creativity. A creative shot should also meet the requirements, at least some of them.

Vasco

EZEIZA · Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:17 am

Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 34):
John, care to explain what a "leveling issue" has to do with creativity. A creative shot should also meet the requirements, at least some of them.

Sorry Vasco, but I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Because if we're going to use the usual requirments, most of the creative shots should have never made it for a number of reasons.

rgds

JakTrax · Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:24 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 2):
Dont think we can ever get a clear cut rule on this because it will remain subjective

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 4):
But if say only 2 out of ten screeners like it it will probably be rejected

Tim, no offence but this isn't a good incentive for us to start (or continue) uploading shots we think are creative. These statements make me personally want to avoid uploading anything creative, however the idea of your thread is to encourage? It's not very encouraging I'm afraid, and the comments are somewhat contradictory.

When there are clear-cut rules, you'll get the creatives you want, in a greater quantity. At the moment you're asking people to take big gambles, which often they don't want to take.

Karl

lgw340 · Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:44 pm

Hi everyone,
Do you guys think this could get accepted?
Thanks
Chris

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 208kb

Taken at RAF Cosford

INNflight · Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:48 pm

Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 34):
John, care to explain what a "leveling issue" has to do with creativity.

Levelling issue? Yes. Creative? Yes.

Not level = no good is probably one of the biggest flaws in the system here on the site, simply because it works - SOMETIMES.

Quoting LGW340 (Reply 37):
Do you guys think this could get accepted?

Don't think so Chris, doesn't work.

timdegroot · Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:49 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 36):
Tim, no offence but this isn't a good incentive for us to start (or continue) uploading shots we think are creative. These statements make me personally want to avoid uploading anything creative, however the idea of your thread is to encourage? It's not very encouraging I'm afraid, and the comments are somewhat contradictory.

Hi karl, while I want to encourage uploads I do want to say up front that creative shots will also get rejected. It would be misleading of me to say that going by mye xample, 8 screeners did not like an image it would get accepted anyway.

No use me saying now everything will be accepted while it's clear that that will never be the case

Tim

ake0404ar · Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:43 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 38):
Levelling issue? Yes. Creative? Yes.

Florian,

thanks for posting them.
There is a huge difference between the shots posted and some general leveling issues!

john, I'd love to see the rejected image, so we can shed some light.......

Vasco

unattendedbag · Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:18 pm

Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 34):
John, care to explain what a "leveling issue" has to do with creativity. A creative shot should also meet the requirements, at least some of them.

I agree with that statement and I was referring to the ability to "break all rules" when it came to "creative" shots. Leveling is a post processing tuning technique and cannot turn a dull photo into a "creative" photo strictly for that purpose. i.e. a photo isn't creative because you rotated it 15º or .25º.

Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 40):
john, I'd love to see the rejected image, so we can shed some light.......

we'll see if this works...

[Edited 2009-03-07 10:32:41]

RMW · Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:21 pm

A photo I recently received a "motive" rejection for. Technically the photo is in good standing. would this be an example of something that is "creative" or is it just not pleasing to the screener. I believe my motive is clear, a somewhat different view to the helicopter as oppose the the straight on/side view. Furthermore I attempted to showcase the operators name. Also how can one tell that his/her photo have been through a creative screening process. Thanks for looking

EZEIZA · Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:17 pm

Quoting RMW (Reply 42):
A photo I recently received a "motive" rejection for. Technically the photo is in good standing. would this be an example of something that is "creative" or is it just not pleasing to the screener

A perfect example! I'm curious to see the replies to that, anbd if maybe now that 10 screeners get a look at it it would have a different outcome?

javibi · Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Quoting Mirage (Reply 27):
I'll just continue to upload as usual, be it creative or not or whatever.

That is the spirit, IMHO.

I do not think we could or even should define a set of rules that would determine which "creative" photos should be accepted and which should be rejected; go out there, experiment, try different things, edit what you like, upload if you feel like it and then cross your fingers Wink

Good luck!

j

Plainplane · Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:13 pm

Do you think this motif would be considered?

unattendedbag · Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:13 am

Quoting RMW (Reply 42):
A photo I recently received a "motive" rejection for.

I don't see anything...

koryo · Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:49 am

Quoting Plainplane (Reply 45):

I do not think so nothing special going on.

Stil · Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:58 am

Hi again.

The thread went slightly off-topic, so i'll try to rise a question.

What was this thread for? initially it seemed as this thread encouraged photographers to try called 'creative' shots, but as Karl stated...

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 36):
this isn't a good incentive for us to start (or continue) uploading shots we think are creative

I have to agree here. I will always try to look for different angles for shooting, but I understand others may feel dissapointed.
And A.net visitors doesn't like called 'creative' pictures. One can wait for months for having the sun on the correct position for a special shot that will barely earn 500 hits on first 24h, but meanwhile a traveller stands up in the middle of an aircraft and takes a picture that will reach #1.

Stil

timdegroot · Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:05 am

Quoting Stil (Reply 48):
And A.net visitors doesn't like called 'creative' pictures. One can wait for months for having the sun on the correct position for a special shot that will barely earn 500 hits on first 24h, but meanwhile a traveller stands up in the middle of an aircraft and takes a picture that will reach #1.

Those pictures in my first post all are in the 10-25k range in terms of hits though. Not every shot is going to get there but people certainly want to see creative shots.

Yes I wanted to encourage people to upload more, if you feel I tried to do the opposite that was not at all my intention

Tim

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