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KarlADrage
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:04 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:50 pm

Please ignore my post above. The image now appears in the database.
 
damien846
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:45 am

RE: Creative Images

Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:44 pm



Quoting KarlADrage (Reply 150):
Please ignore my post above. The image now appears in the database.

Well done, and the other shot?
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Creative Images

Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:25 pm



Quoting Mirage (Reply 103):
So, in the end, this is what frustates and demoralizes me, I don't understand what Airliners.net wants with this called "creative" photos, it can be anything, just depends on the screeners looking at it.

Luis,

Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Luis Rosa



Keep trying and don't loose your faith.

Vasco
 
koryo
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:07 am

RE: Creative Images

Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:59 pm

Quoting Eksath (Reply 146):

Negative, too low quality,grainy and over processed.

[Edited 2009-03-14 16:01:04]
 
ghostbase
Posts: 344
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:49 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:36 am

I just don't get it! How can we encourage creativity within a system which is designed to reward conformity?

The whole concept of a small minority of people called screeners screening photos and deciding whether they meet certain technical standards - very high technical standards here - then making a decision regards creativity is totally flawed. Tim talks about 'creative' uploads being screened by up to 10 screeners then a discussion taking place should there be dissent and finally a majority verdict being reached and an image being approved based upon a majority verdict. That is akin to a creative decision being reached by a committee.

Look at the most creative people in the artistic world - painters, poets, writers, actors. In how many cases are their work approved by a committee of up to ten decision makers? In reality these days a creative artist picks up a small local or dedicated fan base and then word gets round and snowballs into a larger demand however there is no-one at that early stage who can give an arbitrary yes or no decision whether they are creative or likely to develop mainstream popularity with the paying public. It is the fans who identify and reward creativity.

If A.Net truly wants to reward creativity then it needs to make fundamental changes to the way it screens photographs. A template for the future already exists; this is the 'Photographer's Choice' section where recognised photographers cast votes for what they see as the 'best' photos on A.Net. I think this works well with some stunning images being highlighted in this section. The problem is that these images have to be initially approved by the screeners!

So, a true future creative friendly A.Net will still have screeners. They will check uploads for basic technical standards - note 'basic' - and if those are met submitted photos will be accepted into the database. However, this will be an upload first stage and software will be developed to allow viewers to vote for their photos and also to record the number of views within a timeframe. If a photo does not achieve a certain number of votes or views it will then be expelled from the database. It will truly be the viewing public who decide what is a great photo and what is not.

All of our lives we are taught to be controlled, to conform, to be told what to do. So we naturally accept that a small team of screeners can be the true arbiters of what is creative in aviation photography. But think about it, can ten people really achieve this aim? I think not!

Look on the bright side, if my suggestion were accepted (and it definitle will not be!) I would bet that all the safe boring side shots of airliners landing in the sun at LGW, LHR and AMS will soon disappear from the database. Hoorah - about time too!

  

[Edited 2009-03-14 17:46:39]
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:20 pm

First of all, great post by Ghostbase  Smile

And second, yet again, the creativity really depends on if one of you 10 guys that saw this picture liked it and, I know everyone says it's not true, but it also depends on who is uploading.

https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...6735339.2096md11_filterededit2.jpg

yup, rejected for motive.


I'll start reading that it is the b&w that doesn't do it and some other excuse. Point is, a guy walking in between planes makes it or a window shot from the outside makes it, but this one doesn't. My problem is no the ones that made it, but based on what one gets in and one doesn't?
You encourage to upload but you rejecto for whatever reason you like ... and may I add, without even a screener comment saying what is wrong with this motive.

With all due respect, I've had it. Last attempt to upload creative shots. It's just not worth it, not until the current screening process of these shots changes.

rgds
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:38 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 155):
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...6735339.2096md11_filterededit2.jpg

yup, rejected for motive.

My personal opinion: I like that shot, great perspective of that beautiful bird. Does the B&W works? For me it somehow does. The atmosphere of that picture is great in b&w... But I am not a screener.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 155):
Point is, a guy walking in between planes makes it or a window shot from the outside makes it, but this one doesn't. My problem is no the ones that made it, but based on what one gets in and one doesn't?

It is nearly impossible to compare to "creative/ artistic" shots with each other as they show 2 different things and their intention are different as well. It has been said a lot of times in many discussions that "creative/ artistic" is different for each and every individual. Airliners.net has the screening process, we have the "creative/ artistic" pictures and now this has to work together somehow. There need to be some screenong process and the screener decide on the quality of the "standard" shots in a different way than they do what is considered "creative/ artistic".
The screeners have a great experience in what is high quality and standard and they can somehow say if is something "creative/ artistic". This doesn't mean a picture is "creative/ artistic" to others. But the screening team decides on it.
There are many rules we may not really like or which keep us from uploading more shots, but the rules are there.
The screening team has a different way to screen those "creative/ artistic" shots, so there is a difference already.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 155):
With all due respect, I've had it. Last attempt to upload creative shots. It's just not worth it, not until the current screening process of these shots changes.

I thought the same not too long ago. "Why should I bother to upload these shots, they get rejected anyway!" I think this is the wrong way to approach it. I think we all should upload more of these shots.
You have to admit that some very stunning and special pictures made it into the database since the new rule were initiated, don't you think? Maybe it hasn't been your shots - yet, but if you don't keep trying, they'll never make it.

It is like getting the first shot accepted on a.net. It seems like a long difficult way, but many made it and I am sure we all felt great about it.
I guess it is the same way for the "creative/ artistic" shots, keep trying and some of them will be accepted.

I myself uploaded several myself, most of them rejected. Was I happy about it? No. Was I frustrated? Oh yes. We shouldn't stop, the opposite: we should take more such shots and upload them.

You are worried about your acceptance ratio and your upload slots? Then limit the number of creative shots you upload. Just once in 10 or so. Then it wouldn't affect your AR a lot. Or one in 5.

I myself have 2 shots which I consider not standard. Let's see what's happening. I will for sure not be happy if they will get rejected, because I like them. but it is not my decision.

wilco737
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:08 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
My personal opinion: I like that shot, great perspective of that beautiful bird. Does the B&W works? For me it somehow does. The atmosphere of that picture is great in b&w... But I am not a screener.

Thanks Wilco!  Smile

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
The screening team has a different way to screen those "creative/ artistic" shots, so there is a difference already.

Which has always been my main point against the way this has been approached, which is that art can't be screened, and there is no way to know what the person looking at the picture will think based on his/her opinion. And I don't want to shoot thinking on what a few people will consider to be nice or not. It's not my problem, it's theirs

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
You have to admit that some very stunning and special pictures made it into the database since the new rule were initiated, don't you think?

Absolutely, but I also believe many of those shots would have been accepted before the new rule, simply as stunning shots. Having said that, many, way too many shots have been accepted that have motives that are .. let's call them controversial since this is a public forum  Wink

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
It is like getting the first shot accepted on a.net. It seems like a long difficult way, but many made it and I am sure we all felt great about it.
I guess it is the same way for the "creative/ artistic" shots, keep trying and some of them will be accepted.

There is a big difference. One thing is to learn how to shoot/edit technically in order to get a shot included. Once you master that, for example on a side shots on a sunny day , you more or less will know that it will get accepted. But with creativity you depend on what the screener likes. And that is personal. Judging by what has beem accepted, no conclusion can be made on what they want. Therr is one common denominator in 90% of the controversial ones, but in order to keep the thread going as it has until now, I won't say it.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
You are worried about your acceptance ratio and your upload slots?

Not really, other might understandibly be, but I don't care. Not any more  Smile
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:21 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
Which has always been my main point against the way this has been approached, which is that art can't be screened, and there is no way to know what the person looking at the picture will think based on his/her opinion. And I don't want to shoot thinking on what a few people will consider to be nice or not. It's not my problem, it's theirs

THe problem is, there need to be some kind of screening. You cannot just accept the picture if the quality is good. That would mean: every shot what the photographers consider as creative and has good quality would be automatically accepted? That would be a mess  Wink
Find a proper way of screening? I am sure you will agree that there will be no ideal way. No matter what the screener do or how they screen these shots, some people will not be amused.
Take the "mega screening threads" vs. the "individual screening threads". We received so many complains about the forum being messy with the individual threads, so we started the mega threads. Then a whole bunch of complains about the mega threads and guess what: now we get complains about the individual ones again. Now, transfer this to the job of the screener: there is no perfect way how to work with these shots. Someone will always complain...

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
Absolutely, but I also believe many of those shots would have been accepted before the new rule, simply as stunning shots. Having said that, many, way too many shots have been accepted that have motives that are .. let's call them controversial since this is a public forum Wink

There are for sure many stunning shots on a.net before that rule came up. But the shots you see now are so completly different then the ones before the rule. Of course they are controversial, art has ever been like that. Go to an exibition and I am sure there are many paintings you hate and I am sure many others will like it.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
But with creativity you depend on what the screener likes.

As I said above, some sort of screening needs to be done. The screeners are photographers themselves, so they have a clue on what they are doing. And they know what is a.net stuff and what not. Maybe we need to try to upload more and then we wil understand better what a.net wants. Just like with the regular side on shot on a sunny day. At one point you get the idea how to post- process a picture to make it good enough.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 157):
Not really, other might understandibly be, but I don't care. Not any more Smile

That's good. An excellent reason to upload a whole bunch of amazing creativ/ artistic shots Big grin

wilco737
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:21 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 155):
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...6735339.2096md11_filterededit2.jpg

I like the shot, but I'd like to have a comparison in colour.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 156):
The screeners have a great experience in what is high quality and standard and they can somehow say if is something "creative/ artistic". This doesn't mean a picture is "creative/ artistic" to others. But the screening team decides on it.
There are many rules we may not really like or which keep us from uploading more shots, but the rules are there.
The screening team has a different way to screen those "creative/ artistic" shots, so there is a difference already.

Well you can write a book about why you think an uploaded creative shot is worth it, and it still won't be understood. That's the a.net quality sunglasses. Shifting to a more artistic approach after so many years of typical shots here will take time.

KS/codeshare
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:26 pm



Quoting Codeshare (Reply 159):
Well you can write a book about why you think an uploaded creative shot is worth it, and it still won't be understood.

Exactly. That's the "problem" with artistic shots or with art in general. Some like it, some don't...

Quoting Codeshare (Reply 159):
That's the a.net quality sunglasses. Shifting to a more artistic approach after so many years of typical shots here will take time.

It will take time and all photographers should try to upload more of these shots. When I am out on a trip, then I think what can be artistic/ creative/ different enough to be accepted on a.net. I take normal shots as well, but I keep in mind what would be good for a.net. And if they are not accepted, I am not happy about it as I liked that picture and maybe others did as well, but the screener decided differently.

wilco737
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:46 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 158):
That would mean: every shot what the photographers consider as creative and has good quality would be automatically accepted? That would be a mess

True, but in most cases, they are rejected. Maybe the idea of the thread was for us to see what they are looking for, but it0s not working. Somehting hs to change, at least in my view.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 158):
That's good. An excellent reason to upload a whole bunch of amazing creativ/ artistic shots

Actually, I don't care about that either Big grin

Quoting Codeshare (Reply 159):
Well you can write a book about why you think an uploaded creative shot is worth it, and it still won't be understood

Especially when screeners reject creative shots for motive without leaving even a comment as to why it is rejected. How do screeners expect for us to be enouraged to upload creative shots when you get rejection after rejection with no explanation. How can we be expected to keep on wasting our time when we don't even have a clue as to what they want?

sorry, but no. Something is just no right about this.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:50 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 161):
True, but in most cases, they are rejected.

Have you any statistic about that? I don't have any numbers here. So I don't know. Oh and I don't care Big grin There are many great shots accepted which I enjoy looking at!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 161):
Somehting hs to change, at least in my view.

As I tried to say in an earlier post: you cannot please anybody. There will always people complain. So IF the screening process would be changed now, others will not be happy how it is done.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 161):
Actually, I don't care about that either Big grin

Maybe you should start to care  duck   Wink

wilco737
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:03 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 162):
As I tried to say in an earlier post: you cannot please anybody. There will always people complain. So IF the screening process would be changed now, others will not be happy how it is done.

True, but is it too far fetched to ask for an explanation for motive rejections?

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 162):
Maybe you should start to care

I did, now I don't. I'll just keep on shooting for myself.  Smile

there are plenty of other places in which we can show our pictures where I don't depend on what a few people like (note the word "like", hence sunjective reasoning. I'm not discussing screening about technical aspects).
 
timdegroot
Topic Author
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:44 pm

I dont see what the problem is here. By uploading here you agree to have a relatively small group of screeners look at your work. They decide what is acceptable or not, not you or the people on this forum or anyone else. So a shot like Luis' that the screeners like will be accepted but a shot like yours that they dont will be rejected.

You seem to get very worked up over one rejection. Personally I dont think it's such a bad shot - not very creative but nice anyway -but instead of asking for some advice you just start criticizing the screeners and this site. Not a great attitude.

Fact is that many people are having creative shots accepted here now. Not all will be accepted but that has ALWAYS been the case. Dont see why we would change it now and become myaviation.

Tim
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 164):
I dont see what the problem is here. By uploading here you agree to have a relatively small group of screeners look at your work. They decide what is acceptable or not, not you or the people on this forum or anyone else. So a shot like Luis' that the screeners like will be accepted but a shot like yours that they dont will be rejected.

Yes, but for years you have been screening to the a.net standards. Open up a little more.

No wonder Tim, you get rejections also, but you have a better chance of understanding why some shots go through and some don't, don't you? That's what the fuss is about, somebody works their head to produce something different and in most cases it gets rejected.

KS/codeshare
 
timdegroot
Topic Author
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:52 pm



Quoting Codeshare (Reply 165):
Yes, but for years you have been screening to the a.net standards. Open up a little more.

I believe that's what we are doing
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:29 pm



Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 164):
So a shot like Luis' that the screeners like will be accepted but a shot like yours that they dont will be rejected.

And I realize this, and therefore I won't be trying anything else creative in this site. Why? because every time I'va tried I'va had motive rejections. So obviously, you and I don't agree on motives, so in order for me to try to get one, I'd have to change into what you (anet) want ... and that wouldn't be too creative would it?

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 164):
You seem to get very worked up over one rejection

Not really. I am pretty unhappy on the fact that you (anet, not personal) change the rules, encourage different shots, and dont even explain as to why a shot doesn't work. A technical flaw is differnet. It's unlevel, then it's unlevel. But since you will be judging my creativity in regards to what anet wants, it would be interesting to knwo why anet doesn't was this one. Many times one line will do in the rejection. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 164):
Personally I dont think it's such a bad shot - not very creative but nice anyway -but instead of asking for some advice you just start criticizing the screeners and this site

Is there really a point of asking for advice when it just depends on what you might or might not like? I can ask for advice and you might say that you like it, another screener might say he doesn't, another one might be unsure, another one will like the b&w etc. etc.
I could ask for advice, reciev e it by say yourself and two others, and still get rejected because 7 or 8 other screeners don't like it.
And about the shot being creative ... I haven't seen too many shots from that angle  Wink

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 164):
Not all will be accepted but that has ALWAYS been the case. Dont see why we would change it now and become myaviation

Certainly not, but how can you accept one and rejet one based on motive when the motive acceptance is not clear?

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 166):
I believe that's what we are doing

Not in creative ones, because you haven't even defined what the standards are. It's a "I like it or not" situation, not a level, quality or any of the normal reasons, where standards can actually be applied.




As I said before, I just won't bother anymore and it will work better for everyone  Smile
 
timdegroot
Topic Author
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:13 pm

As said before the creative rules are working itsself out in practice. We cannot make a rulebook on this because the possiblities are virtualyl endless and what works in one case might not work in the other. Hopefully we can soon have a page with examples of motive rejections and people can take that as a guide.

I know there is a similar shot to yours on here, a nightshot of the MD-11 rear. Cant seem to fin it now but it works much better than yours IMO. Two shots can be similar but they are almost never the same.

Luis' Shot wouldnt have worked had those clouds been different. hence the acceptance of that shot doesnt mean we are now accepting all distant ramp shots. Making a rule to describe that image is basically impossible.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 167):
As I said before, I just won't bother anymore and it will work better for everyone

probably true
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:14 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 166):
I believe that's what we are doing

The outcome is like a sinusoidal wave, very hard to determine where it's at the moment. Stabilisation needed  

...and a sense of humour (of the ones who rejected one Fokker window shot). LOL

KS/codeshare

[Edited 2009-03-15 09:31:50]
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:47 pm

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 168):
I know there is a similar shot to yours on here, a nightshot of the MD-11 rear. Cant seem to fin it now but it works much better than yours IMO. Two shots can be similar but they are almost never the same.

I honestly was unaware that there was a shot with the same motive ... but two out of over a million would still be considered a litle bit creative maybe  Wink

Quoting TimdeGroot (Reply 168):
probably true

Thanks for the encouragment  

what I have unfortunately noticed, is that despite all the efforts, it still ends up being a "like it or leave it" situation, and opinions on certain shots can be helpful but not definite as a pre-screen in the same way as they can be on a "normal" shot.

rgds

[Edited 2009-03-15 09:58:02]
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 170):
I honestly was unaware that there was a shot with the same motive


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wilco737



Not exactly the same view, but close to that Big grin

wilco737
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:59 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 171):
Not exactly the same view, but close to that

Nice shot!  Smile
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:52 pm



Quoting AKE0404AR (Reply 152):
Luis,

Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.....

Keep trying and don't loose your faith.

Vasco

This one was accepted but it doesn't mean I'm confortable with these "creative" pictures Airliners.net is looking for.

Since a long time ago I try to make different photos because I like it, sometimes I got one or another I think can have a chance here and submit it, as was the case with this 727. Way before these "creative movement" I was uploading what I thought to be creative pictures to my taste, so, as I told before, I'll continue to upload as usual.

Luis
 
timdegroot
Topic Author
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Creative Images

Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:37 pm



Quoting Mirage (Reply 173):
Since a long time ago I try to make different photos because I like it, sometimes I got one or another I think can have a chance here and submit it, as was the case with this 727. Way before these "creative movement" I was uploading what I thought to be creative pictures to my taste, so, as I told before, I'll continue to upload as usual.

Luis I think that is the key. I dont expect anyone to go out now and suddenly shoot creative pics because a.net is now more open to them.

I totally understand that this new direction is hard to understand at times. Until we find a better way of screening these pics -which I hope we will- this will have to do though. The best the screeners can do now is discuss pics and in turn accept them as a future guideline or reject and hopefully post them somewhere as a rejection guideline.

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