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clickhappy
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How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:44 pm

Was just curious to get some opinions about the following shot:


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Photo © Royal S King



In the photo comments section, someone wrote the following:

A photo which captures the moment - not technically perfect, but certainly shows the 748F nicely and highlights the effect of the wavy blue cheat line. I especially like the way this photo makes the length and dihedral of this aircraft evident.

For me, this was just a quick digital snap, I was there shooting film, but had an 18mm lens on one of my digital bodies, hence the shot. But, the comment has me wondering; *what* would have made the shot "technically perfect?"
 
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jid
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:55 pm

Well there are elements of over sharping, also the contrast is a bit harsh but as you say for a quick snap of a still subject in good light its ok.

Jid
 
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dvincent
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:09 pm

A higher resolution for less detail extinction. Can't see the letters on the gear doors and the stabs don't have enough lines to come through without aliasing.

If this was a nice, big print, it'd probably be technically perfect. That's just my opinion, though. We make a lot of compromises when we downsample these images to small web sizes...
 
damien846
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:44 pm

Define "technically perfect? Shots looks great.
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:54 pm

It's not a perfect side-on...?
 
whisperjet
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:47 pm

For some people it might be an issue that it's not an perfect sideon. I know some spotters who have very concrete requirements for a, what they call it, 'perfect' shot:

- 90 deg. sideon
- blue sky with a few clouds
- clean background
- not more than 200mm focal length
- registration visible
- approach shots
-...

Stefan
 
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ThierryD
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:38 pm

Horizontal stab shows jaggies while other parts of the a/c are ever so slightly soft.
Other than that, it's a very nice shot of an even nicer aircraft.  

Thierry
 
codeshare
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:44 pm

It's fine. Next time get a fire truck with a ladder and take the photo from a higher point  

KS/codeshare
 
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clickhappy
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:44 pm

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I would argue comments like "oversharp" or "slightly soft in spots" has nothing to do with photography. It's post processing. I would argue that since people started shooting digital it is more about post-processing skills than photography skills. The comment that was left had me wondering if there was something wrong from a "photography" standpoint, as opposed to a "Photoshop" standpoint.

That's why I've gone back to shooting slides - no post processing, just pure photography. Like Andy Hunt's forum signature, something like "Full frame beats post-processing any day..."
 
viv
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 8):
I've gone back to shooting slides

So have I.

With slides, you have one chance to get it right.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:53 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 8):
I would argue comments like "oversharp" or "slightly soft in spots" has nothing to do with photography. It's post processing.

100% agree, though I thought your question was referring to this aspect.

As said above other than that it's:

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 6):
a very nice shot of an even nicer aircraft.

 

Thierry
 
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clickhappy
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting viv (Reply 9):
With slides, you have one chance to get it right.

Hear hear!


Dreamlifter N747BC, landing at KPAE, Nikon F5 with Provia 100F
 
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ThierryD
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:33 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 8):
That's why I've gone back to shooting slides - no post processing, just pure photography. Like Andy Hunt's forum signature, something like "Full frame beats post-processing any day..."

I know this discussion doesn't necessarily belong to this thread but can't you also have "pure photography" with digital!? As long as you don't upload your photos to sites like A.net you may still just go ahead, take the full frame photos and enjoy them without editing.
At least that's what I do with all my photos that don't go to A.net --> Compose, shoot, enjoy; only exception is that I mostly look at my pictures on a PC screen now and that I don't have to wait half a week to get the results.  

Thierry
 
aviopic
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 6):
Horizontal stab shows jaggies while other parts of the a/c are ever so slightly soft.

A typical Nikon problem, don't worry about it  

  
 
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ThierryD
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:08 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 13):
A typical Nikon problem, don't worry about it

In was almost glad to see you back in the forum, Willem!   

Thierry
 
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dvincent
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:21 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 8):
That's why I've gone back to shooting slides - no post processing, just pure photography. Like Andy Hunt's forum signature, something like "Full frame beats post-processing any day..."

It's naive to think there's no postprocessing going on. Your slide post production is just not being done by you; some guy with a machine in a lab is doing it. You could get a similar result in digital by shooting JPEGs with your favorite in-camera settings. This is, of course, assuming the end result is equal, which of course it isn't, but the workflow is the same.

Have we forgotten how complex darkroom work was, and how many of the great masters did tons and tons of darkroom work? And how that darkroom work is totally necessary, for without it your slide or negative is simply a latent image on a piece of film? Don't forget the role of prints in all of this either, which are their own can of worms. I have many large prints of various photos hanging on my walls and they have a lot more soul that just does not come through on a 1024 image on an SRGB screen.

PS is the darkroom without the cancer causing chemicals. I for one say good riddance to fixer and developer. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to rid myself of it entirely because I have to tend to the film processor at my office for a large imagesetter... but that's another story.  
 
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clickhappy
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:33 pm

Thierry - what I mean by "pure" is what you shot is what comes out of the camera.

Dan, never seen a slide lab be able to do anything other than push or pull.

One of the thing I have seen in years of screening is when an uploader sends in a "original file" when there is some question with regards to cloning or other types of manipulation. I am often shocked at the amount of effort people put in to "get" the shot. Heavy crops, shadow/highlight tool, shots severely unlevel, etc.

Anyways, to each their own, as long as you are having fun that's all that matters 
 
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dvincent
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:27 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 16):
Dan, never seen a slide lab be able to do anything other than push or pull.

Well, they have to color balance the slide with chemistry, for one. Machines do a lot of that automatically these days, but it wasn't always the case. The kind of chemistry that they use plays a difference too, and that has some creative choices. Obviously you can't manipulate a slide in many of the ways you can manipulate a printed negative, but it's not as simple as "film goes in, slide comes out." In the end, something has to do the post processing; the slide lab is doing it for you, especially if you like Kodachome (which should be dead soon, which makes me sad). It takes a lot of skill and time to be an excellent color slide processor.

Obviously the end result of a slide is something that they can usually only adjust color or push/pull exposure. You obviously can't level or crop a slide unless you cut the film, you can't do traditional darkroom manipulation (airbrushing, unsharp masking, etc) on a slide, but you (or the lab) could have done all of that on a print of your slide.

I just think the whole "I do it all in camera" is a bit disingenuous whether it is film or digital, because there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes, either at the lab that processes your slides or prints, or your own darkroom, or via the camera's image engine, or via your RAW converter of choice. Then let's not forget what the guys in prepress would do to images that came to go on press for books or newspaper; that's a whole other ballgame that I could bore people to death on.  

We really agree on, "Anyways, to each their own, as long as you are having fun that's all that matters" is 100% true.   I once heard that someone (probably Ansel Adams) said the negative was the score and the print was the performance. I'd say it's an apt analogy.

I think, in the end, an image is what you get out of it. I for one don't really care for a lot of postprocessing; I used to do professional retouching for my day job for things much more temperamental than a.net (offset printing). I use presets as much as possible and strive for automation. The most manual process I have is sharpening for a.net. It's actually more cumbersome to sharpen for small web sizes than it is for large prints as there's much less resolution to work with. When I make prints, my sharpening is nearly automated.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:42 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
*what* would have made the shot "technically perfect?"

Putting the aircraft ever-so-slightly higher in the frame maybe? And cutting down the trees behind the fuselage  
 
mjgbtv
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Sat May 01, 2010 12:06 pm

Photography is an art. I don't think 'technical perfection' is a concept that really applies, especially to this kind subject.
 
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ThierryD
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Sat May 01, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting mjgbtv (Reply 19):
Photography is an art. I don't think 'technical perfection' is a concept that really applies, especially to this kind subject.

I agree with the first sentence but don't believe the second one applies. Even the best artists wouldn't be able to create masterpieces without mastering the required techniques. Though this is a complete other subject and doesn't really fit into this thread.

Thierry
 
Speedbird2025
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RE: How Could This Shot Have Been Better?

Sat May 01, 2010 2:40 pm

Looks "technically perfect" to me  

--Nate

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