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ghajdufi
Topic Author
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:18 am

Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:27 am

""The competition is harsh on Airliners.net, the best aviation photographers
in the world upload their photos to us. Getting the Photographers Choice
Award is quite an honor as your photo has been manually selected by the
other photographers on Airliners.net.""


Guys,
Currently a very very low number of votes are enough to receive a PCA. The photo however is displayed on the front page for 12 hours and its thumbnail is among the largest ones. Most probably the very first thumbnail a site visitor looks at (after the intrusive ads, of course). Airliners.net is "The Best Airplane Information, Aviation Photos and Aviation News!" site out there but several recent PCA photos suggest otherwise. If these are the best aviation photos, I wonder what the average or bad photos are like.
Guys, it is up to us Photographers to make the change and use the PCA for what it was designed to be. You don't need to vote twice a day, just please vote whenever you find something that you think is worth the honor. There are tens of thousands of amazing photos on this site that never make it to the front page and never get enough attention and appreciation. If you find one, it will not be difficult, please make it happen!

Message to site management: the current PCA system, to me(!), is more embarrassing than something to be proud of. In its current state I would find it more useful to use the space on the front page for newsworthy images instead.

Thanks for your effort.
Respectfully,
HGabor
 
Samuel32
Posts: 105
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:01 am

Was about to open a thread about it.



Jakob's great shot is not the problem.... Someone please explain me those other two down there.

Sam,
 
spencer
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:43 am

Just saw the two you're referring to. Can't see what's challenging or appealing about either. Even if they were new, so what?! It's been fixed somehow and it's blatantly obvious! Where you can not rely on your own merits and have to cheat, is this really the place to be..? Pathetic. Funny how Russian stuff still keeps headlining the PCA...!!
Spence.
 
Rotate
Posts: 1449
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:50 am

Well, I really was also puzzled yesterday to see those "boring" shots so high in that Top 15 ranking. I immediately voted then for Jakobs shot .. which made it PC some hours later.
Same today, I voted for that RAM 767 arrival into YUL. If we dont vote, it is more easily for orgnaized groups to get their shots up into that top 15 ranking. It might be not unfair, but please guys look for some more interesting pictures to push than these 2 shots from yesterday ...
Why dont we Europeans and US guys get our things straight and try to support fellow photograpers from the same country? Is it because we dont care? Is it because we are even envy the work from our fellow photograpers? Or dont we have time at all? I dont know ....
 
IL76
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:09 pm

Quoting Rotate (Reply 3):
Why dont we Europeans and US guys get our things straight and try to support fellow photograpers from the same country?

Hmm... That creates another 'us & them' separation. Is that "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" reasoning Robin, or are you joking? (I sure hope so!)

Just vote for photos you really like, instead of average photos of your buddy.

E
 
saintex
Posts: 173
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting ghajdufi (Thread starter):
The competition is harsh on Airliners.net

Yes, it's no longer about airplanes (specifically airliners); it's all about the photos now. Duplicate subjects, saturated subjects and locations, individuals' counts and so on.

It should be a repository not a race.

Fire away !
 
zbot69
Posts: 151
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:17 pm

Ah, a good debate thread again. Refreshing.

Quoting IL76 (Reply 4):
Hmm... That creates another 'us & them' separation.

I wholeheartedly agree. Except... "them" seem to have created the "separation" by deciding to wield their voting power as a bloc vote for their own photos, however flaky the choice. So the matter's been decided whether we like it or not, else we wouldn't be having this conversation. Reminds me of Rush lyrics from "Freewill;" "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." So the matter's been decided already, whether we agree with it or not or whether we like it or not. In fact, I suspect once other "groups" realize how easy it is to achieve a PC photo this kind of thing will only get worse. Or should I say, "more frequent?" So by all means, just stand back and do nothing.

I'm actually far more curious when was the last time the "Editor's Choice" feature was updated and why it isn't replaced with a Screener's Choice feature and the Screeners don't team up and make an effort to select pictures that should have been highlighted by either Top 5 recognition or PC recognition but haven't. If anyone on the site knows what the most recent uploads are it's the screening team. The "Editor's Choice" seems to be cycling through a, pardon for saying so, "stale" selection of the same shots for the last several years now.

Nice thread though. Agree with Gabor completely... come guys... click the bloody PC button and vote if you happen to be surfing the site. Or.... don't! Because someone else surely will. Just look at the front page.
 
Rotate
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:52 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting IL76 (Reply 4):
Just vote for photos you really like, instead of average photos of your buddy.

  

Eduard, take the last part of my posting with a bit of irony ... By all means I disrespect such behaviour by certain groups. And this all has to do again with views .... , people pushing other friends photos into Top 15 to gain more attention AND more views ....
If this feature gets more and more abused it will defenetly not show anymore a real PC ... , instead showing a picture which has been favoured by a group of photgrapers or shall I say friends ?
 
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JohnKrist
Head Support
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:43 pm

This topic has been debated a lot before and with the same basic content about Russians and Iranians. Every single time there is a plead to vote, but nothing seams to happen. This is where we as a photographer community can tell each other what a fine job we do out there by the fence.
In my oppinion, these guys do nothing wrong, they have a vote, and they use it. And while some photos raises some questions, they got it there by using the system. I have probably rejected 50 angry comments about these photos, but really there is nothing to be angry about.
The form for PC could use an overhaul though, like how many votes should it take for a PC etc.

What do you suggest to improve the PC?
 
flight
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:41 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Well I do vote from time to time- but I still cant get why these two made it- not taking away from there work. But I feet there have been other members that should have had there photos there in place of those.

Am I missing something?

AGAIN not taking away from there work.....

Steven.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:57 pm

There are actually photographers who email their buddies and ask for them to view and vote. How do I know? Because one one these fine gentleman sent such an email to everyone in his contacts list, including the screeners.

For some it seems they want the hits and the attention. Sadly for them, these loopholes are closing, and only legitimate photos will be scene under the PC section. On that note, a friendly reminder, last time something like this happened the people responsible couldn't keep their mouths shut and had to brag about it, and were handed lengthy bans.
 
Dazed767
Posts: 5007
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:57 pm

Quoting johnkrist (Reply 8):
In my oppinion, these guys do nothing wrong, they have a vote, and they use it.

Boy that sure wasn't the case last year when a group of us did it.
 
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PanAm_DC10
Community Manager
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting ghajdufi (Thread starter):
Message to site management: the current PCA system, to me(!), is more embarrassing than something to be proud of. In its current state I would find it more useful to use the space on the front page for newsworthy images instead.

Hello Ghajdufi

I would like to thank you for raising this issue and the others who have participated in the thread. This is an issue that needed to be raised.

We understand the points and issues which have been mentioned and recently we have been monitoring activity in the Photographers' Choice feature. By doing that, and from your feedback, we recognise the feature does require an update.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 7):
. By all means I disrespect such behaviour by certain groups. And this all has to do again with views .... , people pushing other friends photos into Top 15

Agree with your opinion on such behaviour. Each time a vote is made the photographers name is registered, to us, it is clear in some cases the same people appear to be misusing the system. If necessary, we'll contact specific people and ask them to review their activities.

Quoting IL76 (Reply 4):
Just vote for photos you really like, instead of average photos of your buddy.

   too. Every day there are many good photos to vote for on merit alone,

HGabor, your feedback has been heard and as noted, an update is required, it will level the playing field for all and we'll continue to work on a solution to achieve that for everyone.

Regards

Paul
 
Dazed767
Posts: 5007
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting johnkrist (Reply 8):
In my oppinion, these guys do nothing wrong, they have a vote, and they use it.
Quoting clickhappy (Reply 10):
and were handed lengthy bans.

Wait, more inconsistency!

  
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 13):
Wait, more inconsistency!

Not really, in that case a photo was singled out just to make a point about PC voting. You know, there might be a few people that loves ATR's on approach with frozen props  
 
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ghajdufi
Topic Author
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:06 pm

Thanks for all your replies and feedback.

It's important for me to say that I did not start this thread to complain about the two ATR shots. Yes, I did see them and I was surprised for sure.
What you are saying about Russian and Iranian groups voting together sounds plausible but in this case it could have also been a totally different group of people voting on the ATR shots. Blaming the Russians without really knowing what was going on is a bit unfair. Perhaps some photographers didn't find these two images attractive enough for the best aviation site and decided to promote them for everyone to see. It happened before why couldn't it happen this time. Only those who have access to the usernames of the voters know the answer.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, I only started the thread to ask you photographers to vote and make it more difficult for smaller groups to take advantage of the current state of the PCA system.

HGabor
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 10):
and only legitimate photos will be scene under the PC section.

What would be considered a legitimate photo? As I understand it, every photo that gets accepted here has an equal chance of making it to the photographers choice. Is that about to change?

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 15):
It's important for me to say that I did not start this thread to complain about the two ATR shots.

Let's be honest here...
 
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clickhappy
Posts: 9175
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:09 pm

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 16):
What would be considered a legitimate photo?

That will be decided by the site owners and managers.

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 16):
Is that about to change?

No. All photos will still be able to be voted on for PC.
 
cpd
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:12 am

Quoting ghajdufi (Thread starter):
Message to site management: the current PCA system, to me(!), is more embarrassing than something to be proud of. In its current state I would find it more useful to use the space on the front page for newsworthy images instead.

I actually don't vote for any shots or look at anything in the photographers choice or the top 5.

To be perfectly honest, I don't even visit the front page of the site, I just link directly to the photography forum. I still participate in the photography forum sometimes, because there is occasionally something interesting here to discuss, but otherwise I don't bother to upload to the site at the moment and there is very little incentive to do so with the long queue, ridiculous photographers choice manipulations and knife-edge acceptance criteria.

It's better to have your own website at the moment. The sales I've gotten already have more than paid it off, in a really short time.

The long queue could be sorted out by putting blanket 2 uploads per person restrictions, regardless of acceptance ratio or photos accepted in the database already. That'd give everyone an equal go - rather than these 10 or 15+ uploads at once (and yes, used to be guilty of that too at one time).

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 17):

That will be decided by the site owners and managers.

It should be possible for strange images to be removed from the photographers choice section, that is, strange in that the image is completely very ordinary, not technically diffiicult or otherwise is unremarkable in most other respects.

[Edited 2011-07-08 20:16:05]

[Edited 2011-07-08 20:24:40]
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:35 am

Quoting spencer (Reply 2):
Funny how Russian stuff still keeps headlining the PCA...!!
Quoting johnkrist (Reply 8):
This topic has been debated a lot before and with the same basic content about Russians


Just to be fair, here are my '10 cents' from the insider's point of view...

I'm a regular on a Russian A.net photographers' forum and I must say that the Russian photographers community is deeply divided over the issue. Fyodor Borisov for one is constantly rallying against voting on the ethnic or 'buddy' principal. Of course there are certain characters among the Russian photographers who keep doing this kind of promotion of images of average qualities, but as a rule they don't advertise this sort of activity on the Russian forum because it is frowned upon.

As for the images in question - as far as I know, the whole thing wasn't meant as a promotion; actually it seems to be quite the contrary. In fact, it has been meant as a statement of some kind; I warned them that this action would never be understood and would never achieve its goal.

And another thing - probably a half of the so called "Russian" photos achieving the top in PC are actually Ukrainian; it is a completely separate photographers community; as a rule, the Russian and the Ukrainian communities don't promote each other.

[Edited 2011-07-08 21:37:16]
 
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yerbol
Screener
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:44 am

I think its obvious for website operators/head screeners when strange/ordinary/simple photos gets many many views and votes and only they can do something to make it fair.
Photographers, where is your pure love and high passion which I am sure you had on the beginning of your hobby for aviation and airplanes?
I only vote for extraordinary photos with unusual angles, hard to take-photos, beautiful air to air photos. Unique vision of the photographer and talent should be granted.
Justice upon triumph!
Brgds, Yerbol
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12686
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting Chukcha (Reply 19):

As for the images in question - as far as I know, the whole thing wasn't meant as a promotion; actually it seems to be quite the contrary. In fact, it has been meant as a statement of some kind; I warned them that this action would never be understood and would never achieve its goal.

And you were right, at least in my case.

A statement of what?   
 
bravosierra
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:15 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:58 am

Regarding PC of ATR at VKO as far as I know it was some kind of protest against inconsistent and controversial screening during last months from the minor group of photographers mostly from Moscow region. The ATR was picked randomly. I hope persons who initiated voting process will provide more explanations.
 
cpd
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:17 am

Quoting yerbol (Reply 20):
Photographers, where is your pure love and high passion which I am sure you had on the beginning of your hobby for aviation and airplanes?

I still have that love for taking photos, but the atmosphere of the site is different to the one I used to read anonymously ages ago.

That's what's wrong. It's become so ultra competitive and less 'friendly'. I think this kind of manipulation of the photographers choice is an example of that.

In the old days, the site seemed to be one where people had a love of sharing the images they enjoyed taking. The standards weren't so high, so even the beginner could have a good go without feeling like they are on a steep learning curve.

These manipulations of photographers choice might have been designed to make a statement (I don't what kind of statement), but it's just another example of the decline. People should know better than that. It's said that people have to do that kind of thing.  
 
javibi
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:30 am

Good morning all,

Out of curiosity, a question for those in the know: On average, what would be the minimum number of votes for a shot to become PC?

Thanks!

j
 
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ghajdufi
Topic Author
Posts: 460
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:18 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:46 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 16):
Let's be honest here...

I am being perfectly honest! What difference does it make to complain about the two ATR shots? I would like to have the PCA voting system either changed and made more fair or the feature to be removed completely. At its current state the only way for us to make a difference is to start regularly voting.

Quoting cpd (Reply 23):
It's become so ultra competitive and less 'friendly'.

Airliners.net became a commercial product when DM bought the site.

Quoting javibi (Reply 24):
On average, what would be the minimum number of votes for a shot to become PC?

Less than 10 
 
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FYODOR
Posts: 713
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:22 am

Hi folks,

My '10 kopeikas' as well.

The case with two ATRs was discussed on Aviaforum and this issue had live reaction in local community. As a result of this discussion I have to confirm the Andrey's point that this was not promo action. I not sure about the first picture but the second one is the rather silly flash-mob of limited group of photoraphers. It was a kind of the 'protest' but with completely different reasons. I've alredy heard about three different reasons from three of oul local guys: one decided to vote for the second pic to bring situation to absurd just to show for previous voters how wrong their action was, two other points were - protest against unperfect PC system and general disappointment in Anet because of low acceptance ratio. Probably there was a place for youth or mind-limited wish for scandals for some voters as well, I think - just to join something provocative. Different nations have different emotional reactions, understanding of humor etc. In Russia sarcasm and extravagancy are very popular reactions. Many things that can be accepted in other countries as harsh are just a normal way of communicating. However I agree it is not a good idea to bring this colours to other people. We had discussed this in Aviaforum as well. I hope that this story is over. At least we try to develop best practice within photogs communities in Russia.

Some more points briefly:

Russian community is growing fast, it is not unified and consists of many diffirent groups. While Soviet time we had no a lot of aviation photographers. Even 10 years ago photogs knew almost all of each other personally. Now it is hobby for the hundreds of men all over the country and it is obvious that community is filled by many young men. So people in global comminity are very different. We build traditions and principles by now.

Andrey, Ukrainian community is not so far from Russian - as you well know we have guys from Ukraine communicating on our forum constantly. But yes - the communities are different as like as the countries. But for the guy from

Quoting Rotate (Reply 3):
Europeans and US guys getting their things straight

we might be both are the same and from another sort of humans...

Btw - I'm Russian citizen, Saint-Petersburgian, but ethnically I can call myself as semi-Russian, semi-Ukrainian .  

My brief vision on the problem in general:

Situation with friemdly voting is rather international (I think case which was described by Clickhappy was not with Russian, Iranian or Ukrainian guy). Itself friendly voting is not something criminal if it is based on the common sense. However the current situation with PC is following that even limited friendly support can make regular photo as winner against really good one. I agree with colleagues above who said that the way to improve this - make photogs more active in prticipating in PC. As more voters will be as less chances will be to manipulate by the results. I don't see other way how to make PC more impartial. Might be rising of this issue (thanks HGabor) we'll be able to attract more people for more active voting.

Btw - my PC for those day was https://www.airliners.net/photo/North-American-T-6G/1947228/M/. One of best pics I've seen in the latest time.

Regards,

Fyodor
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:42 am

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 25):
Airliners.net became a commercial product when DM bought the site.

Yes, but some of things mentioned in this thread were already present. Also some conspiracy theories  
Quoting FYODOR (Reply 26):
Russian community is growing fast, it is not unified and consists of many diffirent groups. While Soviet time we had no a lot of aviation photographers. Even 10 years ago photogs knew almost all of each other personally. Now it is hobby for the hundreds of men all over the country and it is obvious that community is filled by many young men. So people in global comminity are very different. We build traditions and principles by now.

Same thing happened in Poland. Ten or five years ago taking photos of aircraft was not a popular 'sport'.

How exactly does PC work ? I suppose you need to have an account, but does the system distinguish between an uploader and normal account user ?

KS/codeshare
 
McG1967
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:36 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:07 pm

AFAIK you need to have had photos accepted to the site to be able to vote for PC.
 
cpd
Posts: 6829
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:07 pm

Quoting codeshare (Reply 27):

How exactly does PC work ? I suppose you need to have an account, but does the system distinguish between an uploader

I think you need to be a photographer with photos accepted to vote for the photographers choice.
 
zbot69
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 10:29 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 26):
My '10 kopeikas' as well.

Fyodor, thanks for taking some time to explain and put this in context. As Gabor pointed out, for some of us it's not really about which group does whatever, but more the fact that the PC feature is so easy to manipulate that a few people can put whatever photo they please at random in the PC slot.

You're right, the problem with the PC vote is that it has a low participation rate. Maybe some added reminders to photogs during uploading? I didn't even know there was a PC vote till about a year after I started uploading, I mean, attempted to upload. Ha ha ha.

Then again, it's not just the PC vote that suffers a low participation rate. This forum has a pretty low participation rate. Same couple of dozen people time and again. I'm also surprised how few comments are left on photos in general in the database. I've posted pics on other websites that get 1/10th the number of photo views but receive nearly a dozen comments.

My A.net experience hasn't quite turned out quite how I had thought it would. The photos I would really like to upload are basically beyond my editing skill level and my learning curve is flatlining... hahaha. So it's not like they're being uniquely picked on by the screeners or anything. We all have those moments. But hey, it's not all bad. Every now and then I find something I can upload and a few of them have done quite well and it makes it worthwhile.

Whatever frustrations those guys were attempting to express, I don't think their feelings are particularly isolated to them or their community. We all have our moments. Just have to put things in perspective.

Cheers.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:12 pm

Unfortunately this function works out as simply a.net's version of the stupid Facebook 'I like' button. Inevitably people don't take it seriously and vote for friends' photos than for good photos. Especially in cultures where people think of themselves as members of a group, rather than individuals. Good luck in telling people not to do this... The only cure is to disable this function I'm afraid.

Peter 

[Edited 2011-07-09 06:14:31]

[Edited 2011-07-09 06:14:58]
 
cpd
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 30):
Then again, it's not just the PC vote that suffers a low participation rate. This forum has a pretty low participation rate. Same couple of dozen people time and again. I'm also surprised how few comments are left on photos in general in the database. I've posted pics on other websites that get 1/10th the number of photo views but receive nearly a dozen comments.

The forum has slowed down compared to how it used to be. I think some people are really busy and don't have time to participate, but I also suspect that many people are reading the forums, but not replying. I do that a lot myself. I read messages but don't reply due to the inevitable flame wars here. If you don't post new messages or replies, you avoid all of that (and moderation too, for that matter).

I also suspect that some people are not contributing due to the very long upload queue.

I also don't really upload much here as the editing required is a bit of a lottery for me. One image will be accepted, the next one won't. Most of them are simple, easy fixes - but it takes too long to resubmit things. By the time an image was resubmitted and accepted, it might be 3 weeks old already. That's surely got to be driving away some people.

So I just use my own site instead and I don't have to worry about screening or upload queues, and I have online photo sales (with merchandise too if I choose to enable it). Some other users are probably doing that too.

There are a lot of issues that I think are contributing to the relative low participation rate. Some of them might be the lack of photo sales, others might be grievances with screening or moderation, or the photographers choice issue spoken about here. It's probably a whole mixed bag of issues for many people.

Maybe the site has become a victim of its own success.
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 26):
Andrey, Ukrainian community is not so far from Russian - as you well know we have guys from Ukraine communicating on our forum constantly.

Fyodor, you know quite well that you don't have to explain that to me. The only reason I brought it up was for fairness sake because, as you yourself state:

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 26):
But yes - the communities are different as like as the countries.


... and because there are certain people who never distinguish between the two and who just tend to always blame "the Russians."

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 25):
At its current state the only way for us to make a difference is to start regularly voting.

Amen to that.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14580
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:18 pm

As long the voting is public you will never be able to police it. Unless as Royal pointed out get someone slip up and outs themself pandering or actually manipulating the vote. It is unfortunate that people in this community would behave in this mannner and dilute something as good as a photo being voted on by peers. Mostly this has to be the honor system and unfortunately some photogs here don't have any.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 32):
The forum has slowed down compared to how it used to be. I think some people are really busy and don't have time to participate, but I also suspect that many people are reading the forums, but not replying. I do that a lot myself. I read messages but don't reply due to the inevitable flame wars here. If you don't post new messages or replies, you avoid all of that (and moderation too, for that matter).



This forum has suffered the most since the huge conflict with DM a few years ago. The way the site handled the reactions from the community over site "improvements" and TOS re-writes drove many away. Then the most active part of this forum, pre/post screening threads, were separated to their own forum.

Quoting cpd (Reply 32):
I also suspect that some people are not contributing due to the very long upload queue.

I also don't really upload much here as the editing required is a bit of a lottery for me. One image will be accepted, the next one won't. Most of them are simple, easy fixes - but it takes too long to resubmit things. By the time an image was resubmitted and accepted, it might be 3 weeks old already. That's surely got to be driving away some people.



I agree with your thoughts on uploading. I haven't uploaded much at all in the past year. Only 4 shots have been accepted, 3 of them last month. I felt a renewed interest in uploading, especially since the 3 last month were high hitters and I'm inching closer to 1 million views. But then I got a rejection. Now I get rejections from time to time, especially since I mostly try to upload shots that push boundaries. But this rejection really got to me. The shot had been extremely popular at another site, but a.net said no because it was too dark (I think the exposure was spot on). Sure I could "fix" it, brighten it up etc. but I lost interest because it would mean another 1.5 weeks in the queue. I might try again, but I don't know. My renewed interest is gone at the moment.

This site is loosing it's edge as the best place to showcase your aviation work. Many other sites, even personal websites are becoming much more marketable through various social networks and they don't require silly standards.

As for PC votes. I have often wondered if requiring a comment to go along with the vote that explains WHY you feel the shot deserves PC would go a long way...? And then those comments can be screened and the screener can determine whether it's a legitimate reason or not...I dunno. Just a thought...
 
bravosierra
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:15 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 35):
This site is loosing it's edge as the best place to showcase your aviation work. Many other sites, even personal websites are becoming much more marketable through various social networks and they don't require silly standards.

I bet many-many photographers think in the same way!
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting bravosierra (Reply 36):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 35):
This site is loosing it's edge as the best place to showcase your aviation work. Many other sites, even personal websites are becoming much more marketable through various social networks and they don't require silly standards.

I bet many-many photographers think in the same way!

Yes, but standards have to be kept, you don't want bad edits here. By accepting the rules, you are obliged to play by the rules. How it comes out is a different story.

Personal sites, flickr and co., or other sites offer more freedom to the photographer in editing, cropping and methods of presenting the photos. So you are a screener for yourself.

My feelings towards PC is neutral, I don't really care that much about it to be honest. I once gave five stars to a photo that was accepted (and had visible heat haze) just for the irony and protest. Number of views feels kind of more rewarding, but that too can be manipulated.

KS/codeshare
 
User avatar
ptrjong
Posts: 4123
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:38 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Quoting codeshare (Reply 37):

I agree with your post.

Number of views is much influenced by other factors than photo niceness. Personally I think a good yardstick is the number of photo albums a photo is in, and the number of comments.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9175
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:57 pm

Guys, if you have so much success with your personal websites, why do you continue to moan about rejections and our standards?

10 years now I've been reading about how airliners.net is loosing it's edge, yet here you are. The ironic thing is that, for the people who complain, no one would even know (or care) who you are if it wasn't for the exposure this site, or others like it, give you. The only way you drive traffic to your website is by changing your photog name to "Lav Flush Images" and hope that people will like your images and will seek them out.

If you dislike our policies and procedures then, by all means, accept our apologies and move on. But don't hitch your wagon to our train to promote yourself, free of charge, while bad mouthing us each and every chance you get.

With regards to PC, we have some changes in the works. We will see how effective they are. If we need to adapt them, we will.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting codeshare (Reply 37):
Yes, but standards have to be kept, you don't want bad edits here. By accepting the rules, you are obliged to play by the rules. How it comes out is a different story.

Of course they do. But tolerance within the standards is closing so tight that they are increasingly harder to meet. I mean when rejections are off by .1 degrees, or +/-3 in brightness/contrast, +/-25% in sharpening...some people don't have the patience for that.

[Edited 2011-07-09 11:08:26]
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 39):
Guys, if you have so much success with your personal websites, why do you continue to moan about rejections and our standards?

To be fair, I was agreeing with Chris' points above about why this place isn't as active as before while providing a personal example. I still enjoy this website, but I have stopped uploading for the most part because I don't have the energy I once had. That's not moaning, that's not an attack at the site, it's just one guys example and it was used to back up someone elses point above.

I think that's another problem with this forum. Once cannot discuss their (negative) feelings without being taken only as a bitcher or a moaner.

[Edited 2011-07-09 11:10:51]
 
locsta
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:53 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:32 pm

I think it would be nice if the editors choice section was updated and maintained!
As for PCA there is certainly some cronyism at play here, and unfortunately there is not a good way to change that without some sort of moderation that will certainly lead into a gray area where someone else is making assumptions as to why you used your vote the way you did.
I would personally prefer to support a friend's shot to get additional exposure when I know the efforts that were made to take it. Especially when it is overshadowed by pictures from 5 people that happened to stand up from their seat in 48B to take a pic of a cabin with someones bald head in the foreground or not even have to stand up to shoot yet another terminal as they take-off to their next destination.
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:55 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 39):
With regards to PC, we have some changes in the works. We will see how effective they are. If we need to adapt them, we will.

I realise that my personal opinion will have very little effect on the outcome of the matter, but I will still express it.

With all its shortcomings and occasional hiccups, the PC is the only feature on A.net that allows the photographers decide what is to end up on the front page, and is not influenced of controlled by A.net team or DM. Wouldn't it be a shame to lose it?

The 'hiccups' as the one that resulted in this thread are only possible because of insufficient participation. If the photographers were more active, the 'ethnic' of 'buddy' votes would never be able to lift ordinary images to the top position. After all, it is only very small groups of individuals that are doing it. Think about it: just for example, speaking of "the Russians" and taking into account how numerous the Russian photographers on A.net have grown - if "the Russians" were actually as united in pushing their buddies to the top as some people here think, we would see nothing but the Russians on the top.

If the way the PC functions is changed, if at some point it will be policed by the site administration, the whole idea behind it will be lost, and it will lose all its attraction, at least to me personally.

I vote fairly regularly, and I only vote for the photos that IMHO truly deserve to be in the top. However, as soon as I realise that the outcome is in any way decided by the administration, I will stop voting. Why bother, when there is already the Editor Choice section.

The bottom line is,
to the administration: please leave well enough alone,
to the photographers: stop whinging and start voting.
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:28 am

It's kinda funny. The act of voting is a purely democratic action and the "Ukrainains", "Russians" and "Iranians" are exercising that idea to both benefit themselves and to prove a point.

As has been said by many before me, "If you don't vote, you don't get to complain about the result".
 
spencer
Posts: 1518
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:30 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:43 am

Unattendedbag, that's a very very valid point and I agree, despite my earlier "Russian" remark.
My concern, if you like, is something should be rewarded for what it is, not for who took it. Personally I don't want to promote anyone else's work other than my own, unless they deserve it that is. But you're entirely correct, the function is there to be used, no matter what. I just hope I see better pix there in the future. Btw, it's a great feature and has showcased many fine pix before!
Spence
 
klm77
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:36 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:37 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 39):
Guys, if you have so much success with your personal websites, why do you continue to moan about rejections and our standards?

10 years now I've been reading about how airliners.net is loosing it's edge, yet here you are. The ironic thing is that, for the people who complain, no one would even know (or care) who you are if it wasn't for the exposure this site, or others like it, give you. The only way you drive traffic to your website is by changing your photog name to "Lav Flush Images" and hope that people will like your images and will seek them out.

If you dislike our policies and procedures then, by all means, accept our apologies and move on. But don't hitch your wagon to our train to promote yourself, free of charge, while bad mouthing us each and every chance you get.


Yes people are saying a.net is "loosing its edge" and it may be true but here's what I think. I haven't been around aviation sites for as long as other photog's on this site have, but what I do know is that a.net has been the biggest for some time now. By being the biggest and getting the most hits, I am sure it attracts a lot of photog's, I can say i'm guilty of this because I do love having my shots viewed by thousands of people around the world. Now of course this has it's price. The standards are ridiculously high and will most likely continue to be so. The moaning and complaining will continue to be around so long as the standards are so high. What's ironic is, we can moan all we want and you can tell us to leave as much as you want, but we never will because... well... a.net's the biggest and the best.

Note: I am not complaining about the standards, because I simply don't care how high they are anymore, I just wanted to state something that i'm sure is blatantly obvious to 95% of the photog's on this site.
 
Rotate
Posts: 1449
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:52 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:15 am

Quoting bravosierra (Reply 36):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 35):
This site is loosing it's edge as the best place to showcase your aviation work. Many other sites, even personal websites are becoming much more marketable through various social networks and they don't require silly standards.

I bet many-many photographers think in the same way!

Guys ... the standard is what A.net makes A.net. Too be serious, take a look at the other side. There are sometimes shoots accepted there where I would be embarrased as a uplaoder to show that picture to others.

Quoting LOCsta (Reply 42):
I think it would be nice if the editors choice section was updated and maintained!

Same here ... There are really outdated shots witch are even for the time been taking not very inspriring.

Quoting FYODOR (Reply 26):
I not sure about the first picture but the second one is the rather silly flash-mob of limited group of photoraphers. It was a kind of the 'protest' but with completely different reasons. I've alredy heard about three different reasons from three of oul local guys: one decided to vote for the second pic to bring situation to absurd just to show for previous voters how wrong their action was, two other points were - protest against unperfect PC system and general disappointment in Anet because of low acceptance ratio. Probably there was a place for youth or mind-limited wish for scandals for some voters as well, I think - just to join something provocative. Different nations have different emotional reactions, understanding of humor etc. In Russia sarcasm and extravagancy are very popular reactions. Many things that can be accepted in other countries as harsh are just a normal way of communicating. However I agree it is not a good idea to bring this colours to other people. We had discussed this in Aviaforum as well. I hope that this story is over. At least we try to develop best practice within photogs communities in Russia

Still dont understand the protest ... a protest versus acceptance ratio via voting for a ordinary pic on PC ... I am puzzled. Anyway it seems A.net crew is looking on that cklsoely, so for me that is looked and done.

One quick word to personal websites. I highly doubt that it is possibel to get as much views/attraction on your personal www than you get on putting your shotson A.net.

I think the queque right now is too long, but I am sure there will be a time, when it will be shorter again. But overall this doesnt have an influenc eon me to uplaod more or less, it just takes longer till the pics get in - thats it.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:10 am

Quoting klm77 (Reply 46):
Yes people are saying a.net is "loosing its edge"

Ok let me clarify something here, because this has bothered me since yesterday after the response I got to my comments.

I was in no way insinuating that Airliners.net is about to meet it's demise or is on it's way out. Airliners.net has always offered photographers a place to display their finest aviation work with a promise of hits and exposure, but at a price. In order to receive the benefits this site has to offer, one must comply with the extremely high standards. While Airliners.net is still at the top of the game, it's no longer the only place to share aviation photos with the world. For some, the benefit here doesn't exceed the cost anymore, or at least as much as it used to.

Quoting Rotate (Reply 47):
Guys ... the standard is what A.net makes A.net. Too be serious, take a look at the other side. There are sometimes shoots accepted there where I would be embarrased as a uplaoder to show that picture to others.

Of course the standards are what makes Airliners.net! I am proud of every shot I get accepted here because it means I have met the standards. It's one thing to hold the standards high, but the silly nit-picky rejections are what can test the patience of even the most seasoned uploader! Especially in times of high queue.

That's all I was trying to say!

Quoting Rotate (Reply 47):
One quick word to personal websites. I highly doubt that it is possibel to get as much views/attraction on your personal www than you get on putting your shotson A.net.

That might be true. But if the personal website is bringing in the desired attention or income, does the actual number of hits matter? And by the way, a cookie-cutter side-on shot of a common airline these days can struggle to get 100 views in it's first few days. It's not hard to match that elsewhere. Obviously font page material is a whole different story.

[Edited 2011-07-11 01:41:13]
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:55 pm

RE: Photographers, Please Vote!

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:59 am

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 25):
Quoting javibi (Reply 24):
On average, what would be the minimum number of votes for a shot to become PC?

Less than 10

Is that a fact?  

j

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