Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:07 pm

Hi,

Lately I'm having some problems with photos rejected for being too redish or too blue, I can't find the edition method to allow me getting images where the white surfaces are really white. This image is the last example, rejected for too much blue tint, even after I applied a white neutralizer with Nik software.

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r.../20111005_f1316803349.8141bhke.jpg

What do you do to make sure your whites are really white?

thanks
Luis

[Edited 2011-10-05 12:10:31]
 
othic
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:33 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:23 pm

I use X-rite colorchecker passport I take a shot of it once every hour
 
User avatar
Garyck
Screener
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:20 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting mirage (Thread starter):
What do you do to make sure your whites are really white?

To be honest I don't do anything what so ever, I know sometimes you can get a red cast with Canon, If so I take a little red out and mess with the levels.

Looking at the image you've had rejected I can't see how its too 'blue', there might be something that screeners do when checking the images to do with levels which might show.

I would be interested to find out the answer to on this. Different times of the day also produce different lights, i.e at sunset /dawn a white can actually appear very orange/red.

Gary
 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:15 pm

Thanks for your replies, I'm trying to figure out in photo edition how to make white something I know for sure it's white, I also use levels and now this Nik software with a "white neutralizer" but whatever I do, it's wrong, wanted to know other photographers methods in photo edition.

Thanks for your help.
Luis
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:52 pm

Quoting mirage (Thread starter):
This image is the last example, rejected for too much blue tint, even after I applied a white neutralizer with Nik software.

Hmmm, I'm surprised it got rejected. Does look a little bit blue in some areas (shadowed sides of the airplane, background), but really not that bad. But the usual disclaimer applies - I'm not a screener.  
Quoting mirage (Thread starter):

What do you do to make sure your whites are really white?

Does your editing program have a clickable white-balance function? That's often my starting point - find an area that's well-lit that's supposed to be white, and click on it to set white balance.

Obviously, that won't always work. For example, for sunset-color shots, if I click on an area that's painted white, it'll make the whole image very blue, which is clearly not how it looked, and not what I want to do.

Beyond that, a lot of it is by eye. I'll open the Color Balance window in Photoshop, and slide each of the 3 sliders back and forth (one at a time) until I reach the point with each slider that looks pretty neutral (i.e. not too red or cyan, not too green or magenta, and not too yellow or blue).

I'll also sometimes use the Auto-Color function to give me an idea which way I should go, but seldom use it in the final edit.
 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:21 pm

I use the clickable white-balance function in CS5, using it the same way, but I wasn't aware of the Color Balance window, that's a great advice, inspite being something to fine tune by eye, it's a very good help.

Thanks
Luis
 
raedervision
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:24 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:15 pm

Should white always be white? Some lighting conditions aren't. Should we always bleach the image making it something it never was?
 
RonS
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:22 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:54 pm

Oh the things we do to get accepted around here! I hear ya, I often just trash some of these rejections and they never see Anet, I just don't want to make my shot "look" the way its needed for this site sometimes. Other times, I do what I have to do to get it here.

I've had good luck with the WB tool in LR3, but it takes a while going back and forth from the Tool, to Auto to As Shot to see what "looks" tight.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting RonS (Reply 7):

I've had good luck with the WB tool in LR3, but it takes a while going back and forth from the Tool, to Auto to As Shot to see what "looks" tight.

  

Same here.

Quoting raedervision (Reply 6):
Should white always be white? Some lighting conditions aren't. Should we always bleach the image making it something it never was?

Absolutely not! And since I've uploaded many sunset shots, in most of my shots, white actually isn't white.

Most of my white balancing/color balancing is simply removing obvious color casts, rather than making sure whites are white. I probably should have specified that in my previous post. I've rarely had an issue with color rejections here.
 
Dehowie
Posts: 1072
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:41 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting raedervision (Reply 6):
Should white always be white? Some lighting conditions aren't. Should we always bleach the image making it something it never was?

Exactly at dusk and dawn white is FAR from white so anything other really should be bad processing..similarly under ligting on the ramp at night bleached white looks terrible in pics and very unrealistic.
 
raedervision
Posts: 63
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:24 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting Dehowie (Reply 9):
Quoting Dehowie (Reply 9):
similarly under ligting on the ramp at night bleached white looks terrible in pics and very unrealistic.

Just had a request to do just that after rejection. I don't agree but I changed it just for grins and because it belongs to a good friend.

Jim
 
Psych
Posts: 3013
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:55 am

Are we getting here into the debate about the difference between a colour cast and the normal hue created by different light?

I have a photo in the queue where the white of the fuselage is certainly not white, because the sun had recently risen, so creating a particular quality to the light (and therefore how that light was reflected). It would be a great shame to have to remove that quality of the lighting - basically it wouldn't then look how it did in reality. For me that is very different from a colour cast.

But my knowledge of colour theory is basic at best, so I may be talking a lot of rubbish here. Happy to be corrected.

Paul
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:05 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 11):
Are we getting here into the debate about the difference between a colour cast and the normal hue created by different light?

I'm not particularly educated on the subject either, but I would say yes, that is at least part of the discussion.

When I color balance by moving the sliders back and forth till they all look good, I'm removing color casts. That process has relatively little to do with whites being white, as I'm not looking at a white surface while I'm doing it; I'm looking at the color of the whole image.

White balance is taken care of much earlier in the editing process for me. That will set the basic colorscheme for the image, which again may not be white = white. After that, color balancing is just a tweak to remove any lingering color cast.
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2719
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:05 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:20 am

Quoting mirage (Thread starter):
What do you do to make sure your whites are really white?

The first thing I'd say is whites aren't always white as it depends on the time of day and season so a white fuselage isn't always the natural colour in a photo. I don't really do anything in day to day photography with regards to white balance. In 99% of situations, my Canon 350D and 50D produce pretty much spot on colours to match the scene. The only thing I do is reduce the red tendancy that you get with Canon dSLR's by reducing the midtone level for the red channel from 1.0 to 0.95 on a sunny day, or 0.97 on a cloudy day just to take the slight redness out. That's only for here mainly though, many shots don't really need it. If I'm shooting under more challanging conditions, eg at night or under artificial light, I'll use RAW and sort out any colour problem in RAW conversion but generally speaking, I don't do anything to colour as it's not required.

Darren
 
jforbes
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:03 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:56 am

WB usually takes 5-30 seconds to deal with in lightroom.

I typically shoot RAW. When I find something I like, I may do a few things with the image:

- There's an eyedropper tool. Click it on what you want to be neutral, and it does the job
- I can set in-camera generic settings for WB. I use these very frequently in LR - I shoot on auto, and if the image has a blue cast, I tell it to use shade or cloudy WB, which brings it pretty close to what I need.
- Color balance and magenta/green slider to do the rest. Don't need to touch this much, and when I do it's a gentle nudge most of the time.

I've never had WB issues when shooting RAW, ever. With JPEG, it's a little bit tougher as you have less data to work with, and you may be better off with manually setting your WB in camera as the light changes, but if you shoot RAW to begin with, it's just a couple clicks in software.
 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:10 pm

Thanks for your replies, great help. I'm aware that whites not always are white, light changes over the day, specially during the golden hours, I was thinking in mid day sunny weather. I shoot RAW and now I'll apply your suggestions in this thread, hope to improve my edition.

Thanks
Luis
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:12 pm

Shouldn't you be looking for neutral grey? LR has an easy tool where you just click an area of the photo you think should appear grey and voila!
 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:58 pm

Yes, bottom line is that I need to get ride of color casts, red or blue, I need to find the neutral cast, in CS5, but I think with the help in this thread it will be easier now, thanks.

Luis
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:55 am

A lot of reasons exist technically for white rejections but remember that paint manufacturers of topcoats for aircraft also manufacture about 8 different whites. PPG, Akso nobel etc. Matterhorn white being the most widely used.

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 13):


Important point...depending on time of day and your geographical location. For instance...New York has haze filtered light, much like Frankfurt Germany (EDDF), ( much of the time) while LAX has lighting that is clear and brilliant despite time of day,...( more like EDDM). Weather off the ocean clearer than air masses that cross land over long periods of time...generally speaking of course...So after correcting white balance I add a touch of yellow to warm up the white,...here in NY it is more natural...g
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 18):
Important point...depending on time of day and your geographical location. For instance...New York has haze filtered light, much like Frankfurt Germany (EDDF), ( much of the time) while LAX has lighting that is clear and brilliant despite time of day,...( more like EDDM). Weather off the ocean clearer than air masses that cross land over long periods of time...generally speaking of course...So after correcting white balance I add a touch of yellow to warm up the white,...here in NY it is more natural...g

Are you sure about that? Especially regarding LAX...

In Southern California, typically our clearest days are days where there is an off-shore flow.
 
User avatar
dvincent
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:26 am

At least, my methodology is that I can usually recognize what time of day and conditions you shot in. I won't reject a photo for color when it's sunset and yellow out. However, if it's the middle of a cloudy day, it'll look clammy and blue unless you add some warmth to it. I'm far more likely to reject for a cold image or green image than a warm one, simply because those ones look worse in general than images that are too warm.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting dvincent (Reply 20):
At least, my methodology is that I can usually recognize what time of day and conditions you shot in. I won't reject a photo for color when it's sunset and yellow out. However, if it's the middle of a cloudy day, it'll look clammy and blue unless you add some warmth to it. I'm far more likely to reject for a cold image or green image than a warm one, simply because those ones look worse in general than images that are too warm.

Can I get you to screen my next sunset shot??   

Others haven't been so understanding. lol
 
cliffak
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:29 pm

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:30 pm

Maybe a stupid question, but I assume you did calibrate your monitor?
 
User avatar
dvincent
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:46 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 21):
Can I get you to screen my next sunset shot??   

Others haven't been so understanding. lol

Ryan, you've seen several of my sunset shots, I think I know a good one when I see it.   If you have a problem with a specific rejection, you know how to find me...
 
mirage
Topic Author
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting cliffak (Reply 22):
Maybe a stupid question, but I assume you did calibrate your monitor?

I did, not with the ultimate best software but I think it's acceptable, after compared with other monitors.

thanks
Luis
 
soon7x7
Posts: 2267
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

RE: How To Make Sure White Is White?

Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:39 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 19):
In Southern California, typically our clearest days are days where there is an off-shore flow

That would be due to a high pressure area passing to the North. The back side of the highs brings in moisture.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos