Quoting RonS (Reply 5): and if you don't want to take our word for it, let's try it out. Tuesday morning at 0700 accept a shot and promote it on FB right away. If it doesn't reach the front page I for one won't ever mention this specific issue again.

I'm not arguing with the impact that featuring an image in the social media has. Having an image featured easily garners 1000+ hits, I don't dispute this.

Quoting RonS (Reply 5): No, that is not correct. The last message on the forum from Paul said he wasn't waiting the 24 hours anymore. From what I have seen, he is not.

Please read my comments again. I said every effort is made. Perhaps you misinterpreted that. I'll try to be more clear. While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority, and every effort is made to wait the 24 hours though this doesn't always happen.

Quoting RonS (Reply 2): But when the Top 5 of the last 24 hours, essentially the front page, is being controlled by whatever the powers at be decide to promote on FB, the system is failed because it is inherently unfair.

Which of the current top 5 (or any in the past 24 hours, as I pointed out) made it solely based on being featured in the social media which otherwise wouldn't have made the front page? None. This is my point. It may happen, but it is very rare, and hardly worth making a big deal out of, imho.

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 8): As I write this, there is a photo of a Thomson 767 in great light that was accepted to the database 22 hours ago and posted to facebook 9 hours ago. So 13 hours into its first 24, it garners facebook credit and now it sits at the number 2 position behind a priority upload that was also (rightly so) posted to facebook.

Exactly, thank you for furthering my point. One made it to the front page on merit, and was then featured in the social media, and the other was priority. What is the issue here? Which of them did not deserve to be featured?

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): One made it to the front page on merit, and was then featured in the social media,

So you are saying that the Thomson was already on the front page when it was added to facebook? I stand corrected on that point then.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3):

Whenever I'm online, facebook's generally on too. It only takes a quick cross data check to see when the photo was accepted. I can name at least 2 instances where my photos have been destined for the front page by being far ahead of the photos accepted after my own, only for 5 pictures that were just as newsworthy as mine to be published however mine was never published within the 24 hr slot (unlike others), ended up 6th of 24 hrs and never had the fair chance it deserved.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 4):

I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page.

Of course there's no doubt that there is a chance that the image may not have made it to the front page; but we'll never know now.

This is quite funny as recently I had an image promoted on FB, that has been live here on a.net for over a year. I always felt it deserved a lot more "hits" than it had so I was very pleased to see it gain around 2000 extra views thanks to this implementation.
Now, having said that and in preparation for some flak, I do agree there's some weird choices (IMO) as to what goes on FB. I suppose it's swings and roundabouts at the end of the day and what pleases one person could subsequently annoy another. Personally I don't really care what gets shown. It will never be a fair spread no matter how you look at it.
Spence

Quoting spencer (Reply 12): I do agree there's some weird choices (IMO) as to what goes on FB.

I'm going to concentrate on the when, not the what. If the staff choose to promote a different Cessna 152 that is tied down on a ramp every single day, so be it, it't not my site and I'm going to try not to question it. My issue is the when. If that same Cessna 152 (sorry cessna lol) get's promoted right after acceptance, it will likely reach the front page, blocking out shots that were going to get there on merit from the site viewers.

I would like to find a way to keep the Top 5 of the last 24 hours based on Merit, like Vishal mentions. Waiting 24 hours would do that, and I'm sure there are other ways.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): Which of the current top 5 (or any in the past 24 hours, as I pointed out) made it solely based on being featured in the social media which otherwise wouldn't have made the front page?

I'm not going to point out anyones shots and say they wouldn't have made it. But it is quite obvious to me some do make it solely for the reason staff here promoted it on FB. I for one, know from experience, at least two of my own shots would not have made the front page if it wasn't for someone promoting them. Great, right? No, because my shot blocked someone at the #6th place, someone who's shot the regular site viewers were interested enough to view on their own and that person missed out because my shot was promoted.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority

Dana, I don't sit around and collect this data. You seem willing to say it does happen, but it is by far the minority. I don't think I would say it quite like that, I think it happens a bit more often. But whatever, lets move forward so it never happens. Because even once, it is an unfair system and flawed, that one photographer at #6 missed out on thousands of views, exposure and accomplishment, all because a newly accepted shot was arbitrarily promoted on FB by staff? Even if it happens as you say, in the minority, I find it wrong and quite easy to fix. Let's fix it and not worry how many times it happens, because like I mentioned above, even if it happens only once, it isn't right. thanks

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11): I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page. Of course there's no doubt that there is a chance that the image may not have made it to the front page; but we'll never know now.

Yes I agree with that too. But surely you know when a photo has the chance to make it to the front page. An average side shot of a plane probably isn't "unique" enough to make it to the front page. I don't mean any disrespect but maybe you are expecting too much out of your pictures.

I do apprecite the hard work that goes into putting pictures on anet.... Because it is hard work. But just because your photo doesn't make it to the front page doesn't mean that your moral should take a beating. If everyone was like that then no one would be uploading pictures to anet.

Just for the record I've only recently seen this a.net thingy on FB. I was unaware generally how it works and what goes on! After seeing two(!) of my photos being shown, that have been live for well over a year, I thought it was down to fans requesting them. I haven't read through this entire thread (sorry) so if it is something like that as well then I stand corrected.
But yes Ronny, I agree it could be very "unfair" promotion for images not already in the deserved top spots. Then again I don't click on anything I don't like from a thumb anyway.
Spence

Some food for thought:

I don't know the data regarding where A.net's traffic comes from. But say 75% of it comes through Social Media. Are we supposed to discount 75% of the views our photos get as "unfair"? What if 95% of the traffic comes from Social Media? Did my photo actually get 50 "real" hits, instead of 1000?

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11): I'm not sure if you appreciate the hard work that goes into an image and then have your morale beaten to the ground as those images ahead of yours were not newsworthy; yet they take your place on the (what was) prestigious front page.

Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?

Much as I love this site, it is not the be-all and end-all of my airplane photography hobby. I've had photos that I thought were sure-fire 1000+ view photos, that have actually gotten 100, and other photos I thought were relatively mundane, that for whatever reason garnered hundreds and hundreds (even thousands) of hits. One of the recent photos of mine that was posted on Facebook (months after its acceptance) actually made me cringe a bit, as I don't think it's one of my better ones. But hey, maybe other people liked it.

Yes, I appreciate the hard work that goes into an image - trust me, I probably put more time in per image than most people. The difference is that my morale does not get beaten to the ground based on A.net's image views. Maybe I simply haven't had enough images in the Top 5 to really care....

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?

For me, reaching the front page was one of many goals. The first time I was so incredibly proud. I had spent years looking at the most amazing photos earn their coveted spot on the front page and I dreamed of a day when I could know what that's like. I was much younger, so I cared more than I should have I guess. It meant a lot more to me back then. But it always felt so far out of reach so when I actually did it, I was incredibly proud.

I still like having shots reach the front page and its still an accomplishment I am proud of...when I rightfully earned that spot.

With that said, no. It certainly isn't life or death.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof

Dana, i am a little taken-aback to with that statement of yours, i dont mean to say that you need to be watching Everything that is promoted etc...... No!

However, i wouldnt make this post if it wasnt a major issue.
I barely upload a photo a month but, i do follow the site all the time, on my mobile while to-from work / elsewhere, at home etc

So since You seem oblivious to its existence, i'll try explaining with my own shot since you & others may get the chance to call me names if i provided examples of others.

This so-so image was stuck at #6 for a while.

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Photo © Vishal Jolapara - Indian Aviation Photographers

So when i saw it there, i though to my self 'oh-well, matter of time..... and went about browsing other images.
Just then, there was this pop-up on my twitter-app, exactly 10 mins later my photo went to # 7, a photo cycled-out off the Top-5 & my photo went to # 6.

I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer & since it was my day-off from work, went-out to play Cricket with my mates, after 2~3 hours of playing we sat around chit-chatting, went out to snack.
I came home early in the night, took a shower, read the newspaper, double-click on Google Chrome - Home Page Top of 24 | My Photo still #6 - that is so Sweet   

It just turns-out that this so-so photo also happened to be voted as Photographer's Choice

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): is it just me because I don't obsessively follow how many hits newly added images are getting?

Dana, mate, i respectfully request you to please reserve the sarcasm for someone who just wants to make an issue & dosent give a damn about things.

Thats the last thing i expected to hear for bringing-up 'a wrong' in (what is) the most appropriate place to bring up such a thing for discussion - The Aviation Photography Forum.

So you can call it whatever you want to but the simplest way to provide examples is:

Click that and Sort in order of popularity. You can do that for any day of the year. Many will be able to tell what was blocked & what was promoted.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 4): half the pictures I see on airliners.net Facebook page I don't even remember seeing them on the top 5 at any time (but maybe I am wrong on that)

Ryan, A.net promotes lot of images everyday.
Not all are freshly accepted images & therefore you wouldnt see them in the Top 5.
So Yes you are Wrong on that.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Do people really take the front page of A.net THAT seriously? Don't get me wrong, I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15), but is it such a matter of life and death?

People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do + spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): Maybe I simply haven't had enough images in the Top 5 to really care....

Right answer   

I would like to join the group of photographers who aren't happy with effects of the SM postings.
I do understand that site traffic is the most important element of DM's business model but I find it equally important to let site management know that some of the contributors aren't entirely content right now. I am sure we will find a solution to satisfy both parties.

One more thing about the Facebook, Twitter posts. Has it been to considered to add the photographer's name to each post? I would find it a great addition.

HGabor

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 17): For me, reaching the front page was one of many goals. The first time I was so incredibly proud. I had spent years looking at the most amazing photos earn their coveted spot on the front page and I dreamed of a day when I could know what that's like. I was much younger, so I cared more than I should have I guess. It meant a lot more to me back then. But it always felt so far out of reach so when I actually did it, I was incredibly proud.

I completely agree. And I still am proud when one of my shots gets there.

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.

Are you saying I don't put effort into shooting and uploading?

Spending BIG on my gear is not anyone else's concern, and is completely irrelevant. Actually, come to think of it, so is the effort required. It may take me much more effort to get a good image than you, or any more experienced photographer. So does that mean I am more deserving of a spot in the Top 5?

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): Right answer

So......those of you who have had many images in the Top 5 are complaining that you don't have more, while those of us who haven't had many are quite happy with what we get?

Meaning no offense, Vishal - this is all in the spirit of lively debate, of course.  

Request: Vikram - i dont want to go off-topic, the OP explains the problem.
This thread will be red in the eyes of the moderation team & any deviation will be pounced-upon to lock this thread up.
I DO NOT WANT THAT. End of our discussion & back to the OP.

Vishal, do you upload every photo expecting it to make top 5 or photog choice? If so, you need to step off the pedestal. I notice many of your most recent uploads have a high amount of hits I suppose due to top 5 or photog choice. You seem to scrutinize the hits so in that fashion, if you consider your 747 photo "so-so" (which I actually consider more than just so-so) how did some of your other photos get such high hits? No offense, but there's nothing special about a side-on of a static French Rafale or F-16, makes someone wonder what you're doing "behind the curtains" to guarantee they get "deserved hits"?

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer

You need to calm down my friend. Big deal, your photo didn't make top 5. Yet it made photog choice, got over 20k hits and you're still complaining?

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): Just then, there was this pop-up on my twitter-app, exactly 10 mins later my photo went to # 7, a photo cycled-out off the Top-5 & my photo went to # 6.

This is a.net, you should fully expect an A-380 photo to out-do a 747 photo  

That said, I do agree that social media promotion should be done after the 24 hour mark. Simple as that and it's only fair. I'm not much of a hit counter myself, even though my photos have made top 5 many times, there's also been many times that I didn't even notice my photo made top 5 until days after it happened.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): if you consider your 747 photo "so-so" (which I actually consider more than just so-so)

Ivan that was a tongue-in-cheek reference  

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): No offense, but there's nothing special about a side-on of a static French Rafale or F-16, makes someone wonder what you're doing

This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition is a matter of hot debate in India right now as the results are expected any moment.
This was also the first time the Rafale had come to India.

Besides, try finding proper military shots from India except from Yelahanka where the bi-centennial airshow is held and you have your answer.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): your photo didn't make top 5. Yet it made photog choice, got over 20k hits and you're still complaining?

Not complaining at all about my photo, i was replying to Dana as he said such promotions werent happening.
And my photo eventually made it into the Top 5 (albeit for a brief while) after spending hours at # 6

[Edited 2012-01-16 13:11:49]

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 22): You seem to scrutinize the hits so in that fashion

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20): So......those of you who have had many images in the Top 5 are complaining that you don't have more, while those of us who haven't had many are quite happy with what we get?

It's not about hits. Say it with me folks! "It's not about hits!" If it was, I would be asking Anet to promote my shots every chance I get. Because...wait for it...I do actually care about hits! Ahh, I said it, I feel so liberated! lol No shame here  

I'm just playing around guys, but seriously, this argument is not about hits. You're more than welcome to take that approach, and say to me "oh he's just upset because he likes hits." It's an argument that gets played out here time and time again when someone brings up what they feel to be a valid concern.

Yes, I do like hits. But the hits I want are the fair hits, based on merit from those that view the site. This is the difference, I don't want to get hits at the expense of anyone else, because someone on staff likes Boston and doesn't like LAX or vice versa. Let's wait till after the 24 hours passes, and then promote whatever you want whenever. What I'm saying is, let's make it as fair as possible for all.

I rather get 200 hits on a photo I like than 20K hits on a photo that Staff decided they wanted to promote on FB, because I didn't get those hits on merit and I took it away from someone else. I appreciate the staff promoting my shots when they do, I hope nobody here thinks I don't. I just think we could harness the power of SM in a way in a way that ensures fairness better than what we do now, while getting DM the site traffic that they are striving for.

Here's my promise to Anet, we'll keep working to provide you with the most incredible aviation photos from around the world, you take our concerns seriously and see what you can do to work with us. Happy photographers produce better images and better images produce more traffic for your guys! Win Win  

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): So since You seem oblivious to its existence

Oblivious to the existence of what?

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): i respectfully request you to please reserve the sarcasm for someone who just wants to make an issue & dosent give a damn about things.

Not quite sure what you're asking, but anyway, it wasn't sarcasm, just a simple, honest, observation.

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): Click that and Sort in order of popularity. You can do that for any day of the year. Many will be able to tell what was blocked & what was promoted.

What was blocked? I think you are seeing a conspiracy where there is none.

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): People who put efforts into shooting & uploading the kind of images that they do + spend BIG on their gear etc. etc. etc. have every right to expect attention on their work.

Sorry, but if you're spending big dollars and putting lot of time in with the sole purpose of getting a spot on the front page, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 23): Not complaining at all about my photo, i was replying to Dana as he said such promotions werent happening.

Where exactly did I say that? I think I conceded the opposite, in fact.

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 23): my photo eventually made it into the Top 5 (albeit for a brief while) after spending hours at # 6

So the problem is the number of hours your image was in the top 5? Just as you have the right to rail against this perceived travesty, I have the right to think you are taking this waaay too seriously. Go out, shoot, have some fun, and don't worry about what makes the front page or not. If you do it for the pure enjoyment of taking photos, you'll probably experience a lot less of the keyboard banging you seem to be suffering from.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): Where exactly did I say that?

here:

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): I don't see any image that has been posted on the social media in the past 24 hours that was either a) not already featured on the front page b) priority/newsworthy, or c) outside of the 24-hour window.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): Sorry, but if you're spending big dollars and putting lot of time in with the sole purpose of getting a spot on the front page, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

I dont know why there's such a problem with Interpretation when you know that it was a reply to a previous post.

Nobody buys Big Expensive gear to get a # 1 shot on Anet, Anet dosent pay us.

But, if i think i have managed to pull-off a Really good shot, it isnt wrong for me to have greater expectations for it¿

Again, we're going off-topic   

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): Go out, shoot, have some fun

This is India, and especially at BOM thats not really very easy but, i like your choice of word below

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 25): perceived travesty

 

[Edited 2012-01-16 15:30:00]

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer

That's your problem, right there. It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 27): Quoting vishaljo (Reply 18): I banged my keyboard, shut-down the computer That's your problem, right there. It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?

Bingo, someone finally said it, thank you

There has always been a misunderstanding about this subject whenever it came up here in the forums.
It is NOT about the HITS , that isn't what Vishal is talking about, the problem is with the way SM promotion is controlling the top5 on the front page. We find it unfair. The site used to work differently before the SM postings took over merit. For some contributors the reason for uploading and even going out shooting is to impress others (apart from having fun with the camera at the airport).
For some photographers the aim is to catch a rare aircraft for some the aim is to impress many many enthousiasts. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being different! There is no need to critisize each other for what we are, we are all photographers.
If the SM promotion doesn't bother you please don't try to convince us that we are idiots, just accept it that we are interested in different stuff.
Respectfully,
HGabor

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 27): It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?

So when are you guys doing away with the whole view count thing?  

Positive comments and ratings, combined with high view counts convey a sense of appreciation for one's work and accomplishment - even moreso when the number of views catapult one's photo onto the homepage. It's only natural. That said, particularly for someone in your position to say "who cares" about the number of views an image receives is, with all due respect, rather baffling.

Is Vish overreacting a little with his keyboard banging? Perhaps, but who am I to say. There are obviously people here who take things more seriously than others, and they certainly shouldn't be criticized for it - particularly if they feel their work isn't being treated fairly or policies aren't being adhered to which may be hampering their efforts to achieve their personal goals. Mind you, I'm not claiming policies are (or aren't) being adhered to. But I do fully support his efforts in addressing the issue.

I'm a fulltime photographer (non-aviation) and yes, I'm proud of my work. But I wouldn't be too thrilled if I uploaded a bunch of photos here which I thought were great - and they received little to no attention. It's human nature for people to seek confirmation for their own work, be it in the form of comments, ratings, or views. Without the views, they get neither.

Guys, why are you getting so worked up about all of this?

This is what sites like this can do - make us competitive, bitter and resentful. I'm always the first one to criticise the site if I think things are not running smoothly, but come on, we're practically arguing about hits here.

I'm not a frequent member of the top 5 club, but I have had the odd one here and there - both before and after the implementation of the social media method. True, I felt much more pride when my images achieved this on their own merits, but at the same time whoever adds them to the Facebook page or wherever must also think they're worthy in some way or another. No-one makes someone click the Facebook image, although I do concede that such exposure certainly helps.

I had to snigger to myself the other day when a month-old shot of mine found its way onto the Facebook page and was boosted by a couple of thousand hits. Very bog standard sunny side-on, and while I wondered what wonderful image had been held back by mine, it never once really concerned me. Sh*t happens, every day, and I'm sure we all have better things to worry about than hits here. If you haven't, then I sure envy your lifestyle!

Enjoy the hobby like we used to (when/if you were ever a slide/film shooter). Enjoy the company, enjoy the jokes, the beer, the weather - and the moment we all still awe at when one of these things once again gets itself off the ground!

Karl

Since this debate was sparked by my photo of the First Choice (Thomson) 767, I thought I'd better comment! I was very surprised to see it made the 2nd spot with the number of hits, actually amazed. Given it's just a common shot of a common aircraft at one of the most photographed airports, I was expecting a couple of hundred hits at most. Personally, my motivation for uploading photos here isn't hits, it's the enjoyment of being out with the camera capturing some action and achievement of having them accepted here. If they make 200 hits, that's fine if the odd one makes a few thousand, that's great too. I was at MAN when the photo was accepted and when I got home so see it had been accepted, it had about 50 hits. After processing a couple of photos for upload an hour or so later, it still only had maybe 70 hits. An hour later, around 5pm UK time, it made page 1 so had a couple of hundred hits. That was about as much as I was expecting. Around 6pm UK time though, I remember seeing the number of hits had shot up to nearly a thousand, then it went ballistic. It was at that point it must have been chosen for the social media pages and it eventually went on to get just under 12,000 hits before the 24 hour period was over. I can't see why that photo may have been chosen over some of the others, the only difference to many other common photos of it was the lighting. I can see why some get frustrated by the way photos get more hits than others, but is it so much of a big deal? Surely the main emphasis in our hobby is being out by the runway enjoying the action and photography, and not on the number of clicks? While it's nice to get hits, and is almost a sense of achievement to gain them, I can think of far greater things to concentrate on than the number of hits. It's an interesting debate, but for me, not the most important thing in our hobby.

Darren

[Edited 2012-01-17 02:38:17]

Hi All,

Thanks for your input and feedback. Vishal, you have 129 shots on site, a quick check of them shows at least 6 posted on Social Media, hopefully the views generated by those 6 shots being posted will spare your keyboard more trauma  

Social Media does influence the Top 5 just as the Top 5 influences what is posted on Social Media. We do our utmost to take the data we receive and post in response to certain demographic criteria, what time zone it is and many other factors. That said, a shot that makes the Top 5 on its own may receive minimal extra views from Social Media and vice versa. Viewer preferences can be vastly different between the two. As Darren pointed out, he thought the 767 was "common" but for those who will never see one in real life, it is of high interest.

One thing we do watch very closely is the time stamp a shot is accepted, there are times when you'll click on the Top of Last 24 Hours link under the Top 5 and it doesn't display the same shots as some have timed out and more recent additions have made it to the homepage so we'll post it because nothing will change it from appearing when everything re indexes at the Top of the Hour. If it looks like it'll pass another shot with more views, we'll post that too or just wait.

Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now. As for "within 24 hours" the indexing of the database takes place at midnight Santa Monica time. As a result, if a shot is accepted at 03:00 it stays in the system for the next 24 hours marked as accepted on the date it was, then after the 24 hours is up at 03:00 the next day it'll still show that date for the next 21 hours until the database in indexed again. In effect, there can be up to 400 to 600 photos marked like that and if posted on social media it has no influence whatsoever on the Top 5. That can cause confusion as some think we're posting to influence the Top 5 when we are not.

Social Media helps to grow the overall reach of the site, but it is just one part of what DM have done, the arrows and some search tweaks have all combined to generate the fastest rate of views the site has experienced, it's just that it is spread across the entire database more than it was in the past.

There are a lot of other dynamics that influence the Top 5 too, some shots are posted on large local country forums which generate a lot of views in their own right, that is the photographers decision and right to do that. Some use their own social media sites and specifically market the shot, again, that is their choice to do so.

You would have noticed, we have now started to post links to the latest additions, the shot is randomly chosen by an automated system and when the link is clicked, it shows the latest 120 acceptances so those who follow us have to look for the shot among 119 others. Each time a screener releases a batch the content in that link is changed so no one particular shot really benefits. The link we use let's us know how many click it and we average about 7,200 clicks, that is a far more equitable way of posting within 24 hours. It is not about who "likes" it but rather the real followers who want to see diversity and they select what they view. Not all view a shot as some expect it to be the random thumbnail and close the page immediately, others spend quite some time viewing many different shots.

We're constantly evaluating how to engage those who follow us on Social Media and you'll notice some changes so we get interact more with our followers via means other than photos. As for the 24 hours, we'll continue to post.

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 27): That's your problem, right there. It's a photo. As long as you are proud of it, who cares how many people have viewed it?

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 31): Enjoy the hobby like we used to (when/if you were ever a slide/film shooter). Enjoy the company, enjoy the jokes, the beer, the weather - and the moment we all still awe at when one of these things once again gets itself off the ground!

There is more to it than just views, for many it's a lifestyle, enjoy it as others do by coming to this site to enjoy your photos.

Regards

Paul.

We keep hearing this 'merits' thing but really, what 'merits' does a photo featuring a brand new livery or similar have? This one of mine made 'top of the day' a couple of years back...


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Photo © Karl Nixon


Nice enough photo I guess but the featured aircraft wasn't going anywhere (i.e. it was parked), the sun was out and it was only a few feet away from me. Hardly a great photographic feat on my part, but as luck would have it it was a brand new airline at the time - which meant that my luck continued with the viewing numbers after a priority upload. Emphasis on luck there. The photo didn't have the 'merits' of the below shot I took recently - that is, my workmanship wasn't responsible for the number of views.


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Photo © Karl Nixon


Just luck that people wanted to see my Nesma image. Viewing figures were outside of my control. The above shot on the other hand was attractive no doubt to viewers for entirely different reasons. Goes to show, the current system isn't all bad. As the old adage goes, "Be careful what you wish for"........

Karl

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16): I love it when my photos get there (or even get to the top 15),

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 31): I felt much more pride when my images achieved this on their own merits,

Most of the "nay" sayers to this topic have, while questioning the relevance of the argument, confirmed that there is merit and appreciation in having a photo of theirs make it to the front page. For some, it happens often, for others, not so much. But it's the fairness and the satisfaction that comes along with seeing enough ordinary visitors whom seek out this website to look at pictures of airplanes click on your image to propel it to a "higher" level of appreciation. Can we manipulate the front page to display anything one person wants? Sure. Is that the best policy? I certainly don't think so.

If we didn't appreciate the appreciation, we would all card dump to flickr and give the big middle finger to the strict screening standards here (as many have done in the past). There is a reason we try, try, try again. There's a reason why we get mad when a shot is rejected. There is a reason why some leave after "too many" rejections. Because we care. We care for this website, we care for the hobby, we care to share our work with the largest aviation enthusiast audience (pictures). We care about the big things and we care about the small things.

Thanks to Paul's response, I see he is taking care to evaluate a photos time of acceptance. That is appreciated.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 34): (i.e. it was parked), the sun was out and it was only a few feet away from me. Hardly a great photographic feat on my part, but as luck would have it it was a brand new airline at the time - which meant that my luck continued with the viewing numbers after a priority upload. Emphasis on luck there. The photo didn't have the 'merits' of the below shot I took recently - that is, my workmanship wasn't responsible for the number of views.

There are many types of "merit". Many people are interested in a new paint scheme. Many are interested in an aircraft with a beautiful backdrop. The first shot warranted enough "merit" for you to stop ("Thanks to Kevin Bates for the tip-off.") whatever you were doing to photograph the boring aircraft.

I've noticed (and you are correct on this point), the "merit" you speak of comes in the comments left from viewers who actually take the time to textualize their appreciation.

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): Most of the "nay" sayers to this topic have, while questioning the relevance of the argument, confirmed that there is merit and appreciation in having a photo of theirs make it to the front page.

Appreciation, certainly. Merit? I don't think I would ever consider one of my photos more deserving than someone else's.

Anyway, what you stated isn't a contradiction. Yes, I love getting photos in the Top 5. No, I don't particularly care whether it's aided by social media or not.

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): But it's the fairness and the satisfaction that comes along with seeing enough ordinary visitors whom seek out this website to look at pictures of airplanes click on your image to propel it to a "higher" level of appreciation.

I just don't get the whole "on the photo's own merit" and "fairness" thing. Just because I see a shot on Facebook, I'm not automatically going to click on it. Another example: I visit A.net pretty frequently. I probably click on 1 out of 5 shots that are in the Top 5.

If we're going to take this "fairness" argument to it's logical conclusion, then the Top 5 of the Last 24 Hours shouldn't even be posted on the front page until the 24 hours is up. Because by posting on the front page, A.net is now generating "non-meritorious" hits (now, maybe I'm an idiot and that's the way it already is....but I don't think so).

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 35): Thanks to Paul's response, I see he is taking care to evaluate a photos time of acceptance. That is appreciated.

   No matter which side I agree with, it's always nice to see the powers-that-be taking note of photographers' wishes.

Well, most people on facebook click on any of the links. Simply because. A good example is the last post, which is this photo https://www.airliners.net/photo/AeroLogic/Boeing-777-FZN/2050411

Added to fb 40 mins ago and suddenly rocketing up, coming out of nowhere with up to 100 views per 5 minutes! Is it a nice photo - yes. Might it make the Top 5 without facebook - maybe yes. Is it fair, guess not.

The question is what you want a.net Top 5 to be. A collection of the facebook photos or should it be the photos liked by airliners-net users that can then be shown on facebook?

Cheers,

Felix

[Edited 2012-01-17 09:57:06]

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 36): Just because I see a shot on Facebook, I'm not automatically going to click on it. Another example: I visit A.net pretty frequently. I probably click on 1 out of 5 shots that are in the Top 5.

Vik, the fact is that when a photo is posted to Facebook it get's hundreds, often thousands of hits regardless of what kind of shot it is. This is why some question why the crew feel they need to share newly accepted photos to generate the traffic DM wants. It seems that it doesn't matter when a chosen shot was accepted, it will bring a lot of traffic to the site.

Quoting Africaspotter (Reply 37): The question is what you want a.net Top 5 to be. A collection of the facebook photos or should it be the photos liked by airliners-net users that can then be shown on facebook?

I agree. Perhaps it is time to change the name of the Top 5 or at least establish an official change to what it's supposed to represent. Maybe it should be called "What's hot" or "What's Trending" or "Viral Photos".

Btw, here goes another one right behind it... Just added to the db an hour ago, put on facebook and already more than 1000 hits... As if Sam needed his photos pushed  
The next three TOP 5 candidates are all recent "facebook pics". It is not the users who decided, but the facebook site admin. And he seems to like LAX...

[Edited 2012-01-17 10:58:13]

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 38): Vik, the fact is that when a photo is posted to Facebook it get's hundreds, often thousands of hits regardless of what kind of shot it is. This is why some question why the crew feel they need to share newly accepted photos to generate the traffic DM wants. It seems that it doesn't matter when a chosen shot was accepted, it will bring a lot of traffic to the site.

Ryan, trust me, I understand the argument. But I have to assume that those who click on a particular photo want to see that particular photo, whether they find it on A.net, Facebook, Twitter, or wherever. And I really just can't get worked up about photos getting more hits, no matter where they're coming from, whose photo it is, or what the subject is.

Though, a photo that shows up in the Top 5 is also going to get hundreds if not thousands of extra hits, no matter what kind of shot it is....

Ultimately, I have to agree with Karl. When you strip it all down, we are arguing about hits. You can frame it any way you want, but it is what it is. Now there's nothing wrong with wanting and discussing hits, but lets be honest about it, at least!

Yes, we are discussing hits, we are discussing attention, but also the identity of a.net

Facebook is a strange phenomena. Some people use youtube as a search engine and some people use facebook for all their internet browsing. Most people think that the photos presented on facebook are the only good photos that are on a net. While scientists were worried that young people know the internet too well, we now see a trend where they don't know how the internet works at all. That is why things like facebook, youtube and twitter are so popoluar. People don't have to invest time to browse the internet, they just feed on whatever you present them.
Many of the 80.000+ a.net facebook fans do not visit the side. Have you ever looked at the comments and request there. People ask for photos like "A380 at Frankfurt" or "please show a Qantas 747". It is a miracle to me why they don't go to a.net directly and search it themselves...
But that is the way it is. Why have a editor's choice on the frontpage, why so many people living the a.net system? Just leave it to the hands of the facebook admin...

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 40): Ryan, trust me, I understand the argument. But I have to assume that those who click on a particular photo want to see that particular photo, whether they find it on A.net, Facebook, Twitter, or wherever. And I really just can't get worked up about photos getting more hits, no matter where they're coming from, whose photo it is, or what the subject is. Though, a photo that shows up in the Top 5 is also going to get hundreds if not thousands of extra hits, no matter what kind of shot it is.... Ultimately, I have to agree with Karl. When you strip it all down, we are arguing about hits. You can frame it any way you want, but it is what it is. Now there's nothing wrong with wanting and discussing hits, but lets be honest about it, at least!

In the days before social media postings, photos reached the front page on their own simply because the viewers spoke. Viewers came to the site and weeded through the recent additions and clicked on the photos they found interesting enough to view. Today, some shots get there because they are being chosen by one(?) crew member and are being thrown into a social media machine that has a huge influence on views. Sure, you can say we are arguing over hits. But it's the mechanism behind the hits that we are discussing and one does seem to be more fair than the other.

We know that there is a link between photos promoted via social media by A.net & the number of hits that the social media generates for that particular photo.

The question that many of us have been pondering is how to give a fighting chance, to those photographers / contributors to the site whose work is not being promoted by A.net on social media during the 1st 24hrs of an images acceptance, of their image reaching the front page or top of last 24hrs.

I think I may have an idea as to how this could be achieved, while still allowing A.net to promote any image that they so desire as soon as it is uploaded.

Currently A.net can track how many views an image receives from a web link, and the photographers can view this info in real time in their photographer's corner section.

Now if there was a way to only count direct hits on an image from the search page of the site for the 1st 24hrs of a shots acceptance, then this may be a way to counteract the current situation where social media seems to have a disproportionate affect on the outcome of the top of last 24hrs.

This would at least level things up a bit for those whose images are not being promoted, however I suspect that at least 50% of the images that have been promoted by a.net would probably have made the top of last 24hrs.

Finally, it has always been considered bad form to promote your own works within the forum, but who many of us use social media to promote their stuff. I know I use my twitter account to post links to some of my recent acceptances (when I manage to sneak 1 passed the screeners   ) and to post links to photos taken by others that I have seen that I like, as social media is more of an advertising service in this regard.

Hi,

interesting idea, but how would the clicks from facebook count? Only after 24hrs? And what about clicks from other facebook pages?

In my opinion it is okay to "advertise" photos, but usually these generate just a few clicks. The a.net facebook page is special in that particular way. It is also okay to put cool photos on the facebook page, but look at the recent Top 5. Three of them got up within very short time and made it on the front page. They would surely have made it at some point, but maybe not within 2hrs. This means that all the patient photographers who were not selected never got their 4 hour share in the Top 5. And even though we all like Sam's LAX air-to-air photos, there is no need to have them on facebook instantly. Rather give some poor underdog the chance to sit there and watch his photo go to the front page the "old way"  

But I appreciate that the problem is looked into!

Cheers,

Felix

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 43): Finally, it has always been considered bad form to promote your own works within the forum, but who many of us use social media to promote their stuff. I know I use my twitter account to post links to some of my recent acceptances (when I manage to sneak 1 passed the screeners   ) and to post links to photos taken by others that I have seen that I like, as social media is more of an advertising service in this regard.

This is a good point, and one I meant to edit into my last reply. Many of us are "guilty" of self promotion via social media. I do it, and I follow a few members in this thread on twitter and they do it too. Now, we don't bring nearly as much traffic to the site and our photos as the official Airliners.net twitter and Facebook accounts, but if we did have that much power, would we still self promote? Or would it be unfair? Hmm   

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 3): Unless you guys have some empirical proof (and I know Paul will back this up), every effort is made to wait for the 24-hour window to pass for images that did not reach the front page on their own, or are not priority.

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 9): I'll try to be more clear. While the occasional image that has not passed the 24-hour window, and is not priority, and has not already made the front page may be featured, that is by far in the minority, and every effort is made to wait the 24 hours

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 33): Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now.

Paul, thank you for coming here to post. Please forgive me but, i couldnt make much out from your diplomatic language. (no disrespect meant)

In the hours after your post till now (and even Felix has posted about it here in the above posts), i recieved just over a dozen emails ALL of them basically stating:

Quote: from: *********@gmail.com> date 18 January 2012 03:44 subject Hi hide details 03:44 (2 hours ago) Hi Vishal, i'm sorry to see u getting targeted for all the wrong reasons, if you see they just promoted these three photos very shortly after their acceptance @airliners_net: I love the last United livery. I will miss their stylish Tulip forever! It was great to see her flying past us. http://fb.me/KX3iejrr @airliners_net: Talk about huge engines and wing flex, well here you've got it all! What a beast is the 777-200F!? http://fb.me/NP3Vhz7m @airliners_net: Nice angle to capture a Delta Air Lines B737-832 moments from touching down at LAX. http://fb.me/1nhGRHKkx ----- take care

So Paul, if i may quote you again:

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 33): Dana was correct with his posts, however, I admit recently some errors were made, this was due to the acceptance time not being available for some who post, it is now.

In simple English, if you can please tell me what the policy henceforth is, Are you folks going to keep promoting Freshly-Accepted Non-newsworthy photos?

[Edited 2012-01-17 17:27:42]

[Edited 2012-01-17 18:18:07]

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 46): In simple English,

In simple English: each of those three images was either already on the front page or next in line to be when they were posted, so nobody 'lost out' due to them being posted. Did you actually check this, or are you going simply by what your anonymous email friend has passed on to you?

Quoting vishaljo (Reply 46): what a co-incidence that 2 of those photos are of screeners

Screeners are not allowed to have their images featured in the social media? Kind of goes against the fairness you are seeking, no? And I know Andy is on the screening team, but wasn't aware Sam or Juan Carlos had joined. You might want to vet the information people are sending you in these emails lest you post a little hastily.

Dana, i went by the info in the emails as i was away & very busy for a long time.
Yes you're right, i just copy-pasted it in haste (Its been a very long day for me) as i should've deleted that line or quoted another mail, apologies.

Felix has posted about the exact details.

Quoting Africaspotter (Reply 37): Well, most people on facebook click on any of the links. Simply because. A good example is the last post, which is this photo https://www.airliners.net/photo/AeroLogic/Boeing-777-FZN/2050411 Added to fb 40 mins ago and suddenly rocketing up, coming out of nowhere with up to 100 views per 5 minutes! Is it a nice photo - yes. Might it make the Top 5 without facebook - maybe yes. Is it fair, guess not.

-

Quoting Africaspotter (Reply 39): Btw, here goes another one right behind it... Just added to the db an hour ago, put on facebook and already more than 1000 hits...

This is not me vs you, or vs the screeners or anybody.
May sound odd to you but, mate i completely appreciate the work you guys put-in for free, devoting precious personal time for others via your crew duties & i have nothing but the greatest respect for that   



[Edited 2012-01-17 18:19:42]