Questions About Facebook/Airliners.net

unattendedbag · Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:17 am

I have a few questions regarding the new method of displaying our photos on Facebook. I hope this thread remains available and active so that everyone involved may ask the questions and get the answers they need.

I can appreciate what Paul and the others have done in attempting to further distance the Facebook influence from the Top 5 of the Last 24 hours. Adding images directly to Facebook eliminates the need for direct linking to this site and doesn't add a 'view' to an image that has yet to make it to the Top 5.

But, if memory serves me right, airliners.net at one time (and for a short time) implemented a Terms of Service agreement with its photographers similar to that of Facebook . There was an uprising/revolt, and the TOS was dropped for a much friendlier agreement that didn't put the photographers rights in the toilet. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the first of several questions I have regarding this change.

darthluke12694 · Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):

Thanks for starting this thread! I've been curious too.

Now my question is that wouldn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook be violating A.net's TOS? According to A.net's TOS section 4B: "This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service." Isn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook violating the TOS? Or would A.net's Facebook page be considered "through the service"?

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm just curious.

Africaspotter · Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:56 pm

Well, it does matter to me and I can not approve of the fact that photos are being uploaded to an external site and the photographer doesn't even know! We all know how easily photos can be misused on facebook and we have been fighting it! Now a.net is doing the same...

Cheers,

Felix

vikkyvik · Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
I have a few questions regarding the new method of displaying our photos on Facebook. I hope this thread remains available and active so that everyone involved may ask the questions and get the answers they need.

I can appreciate what Paul and the others have done in attempting to further distance the Facebook influence from the Top 5 of the Last 24 hours. Adding images directly to Facebook eliminates the need for direct linking to this site and doesn't add a 'view' to an image that has yet to make it to the Top 5.

Whoa, I didn't even know A.net had started doing that. Last time I was on the Facebook page, the links still went to the photos on A.net (clearly, I don't go on Facebook very much

).

Very interesting, and a valid question. Have to admit, I'm surprised the crew didn't start a thread notifying us about it.

Africaspotter · Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:06 pm

I am not suprised... I am suprised that my last post was not deleted, like the two before!

CXB77L · Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:13 pm

If I were a photographer, it would matter to me too, for the same reasons the OP mentioned above. If people can view the photo on FB, they're less likely to click the link to your photograph to generate additional views, whereas if only the thumbnail and the link are posted, then they're more likely to click on the link to access a larger version of the photo, thus generating additional views for the photographer.

It would be great to get an official line on this matter.

Kukkudrill · Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 1):
Now my question is that wouldn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook be violating A.net's TOS? According to A.net's TOS section 4B: "This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service." Isn't uploading pictures directly to Facebook violating the TOS? Or would A.net's Facebook page be considered "through the service"?

Good question. Depends how you interpret this last bit from para 4B (passage in bold):

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service, but does permit Airliners.net to make your User Photos available for viral distribution such as by providing HTML code for aviation enthusiasts to embed the “photo of the day” on other websites and allowing Airliners.net to share User Photos with members of the Airliners.net community through, for example, email and newsletters.

One thing's for sure: it's best to watermark your photos in case they end up on the a.net Facebook page.

Silver1SWA · Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

McG1967 · Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:51 pm

While I am glad for the extra exposure that photos get from being linked to from the A.net Facebook page, or a link from their twitter feed, I do have concerns about photos being uploaded to the A.net Facebook page and falling under the Facebook TOS.

What size are photos uploaded to the A.net Facebook page at?

If a photo is watermarked, does the watermark carry over to the Facebook page?

I am not a Facebook member, so where does this leave me with regards to exercising rights I hold over my images that may be uploaded to the A.net Facebook page and fall under the Facebook TOS.

stevemchey · Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

If you hear an answer before one is posted here, please share.

I haven't heard about the recent changes, but am quite concerned. I never post pictures to Facebook, because I don't agree with their TOS in regards to images. For a.net to potentially post them there without my consent is quite troubling.

At least a.net needs to provide an "opt-out" (or preferably "opt-in") policy, where you can flag if an uploaded image can be re-posted.

planespot · Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 8):
If a photo is watermarked, does the watermark carry over to the Facebook page?

It depends on if the A.net crew remembers to grab the watermarked version (which might involve logging out of their A.net account first). I, personally, don't have a problem with them uploading my watermarked photos to FB, but I DO have a problem with uploading the un-watermarked versions to FB. The first batch of photos posted were un-watermarked, but after bringing it up with the crew, it's been addressed, so I'm happy. My main concern was that watermarks are a pretty decent theft deterrent, and leaving it off for the general public makes it that much easier for photos to get stolen/misused.

CXB77L · Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting kukkudrill (Reply 6):
Good question. Depends how you interpret this last bit from para 4B (passage in bold):

But then there's also the sentence before that which states

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service

NZ107 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 11):

But then there's also the sentence before that which states

Quote:
Also, this limited license does not permit Airliners.net to distribute your User Photos in any way other than on and through the Service

Well that's great then, isn't it!

Stealthz · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:52 am

Not sure about this whole FB thing and not convinced I am that comfortable with the redistribution of images.

This may not be the forum for this but it does mention photos.----

Quoting Airliners.net home page:
Join us on Facebook for the latest aviation photos, news and information.

This puzzles me, I thought Airliners.net is where one came for those things yet the home page suggests you go elsewhere.

NZ107 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 13):

This puzzles me, I thought Airliners.net is where one came for those things yet the home page suggests you go elsewhere.

Odd paradox there, that's for sure!

PanAm_DC10 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

Regards

Paul

vikkyvik · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but our photos are subject to Facebook's TOS? Which we didn't agree to when we uploaded the photos to A.net?

Thanks for the response, Paul.

mhodgson · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:27 pm

Don't the Facebook TOS mention not uploading images without permission? I'll admit to not being up on legalese and haven't combed through either Anet or Facebooks TOS, but surely Anet is in theory distributing these images without permission, in which case they would subsequently be against the Facebook TOS by doing so?

stevemchey · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

I see that as a HUGE problem. According to the Facebook's TOS:

Quoting Facebook's TOS:

For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License).

However, looking at a.net's TOS, I can't find the section where I grant a.net the right to a "transferable" license, which would be needed in order to pass the license along to Facebook (and under their TOS). All I can find is:

Quoting A.net's TOS:
When you post User Photos to the Service, you hereby grant Airliners.net a limited, revocable, perpetual (subject to your right of revocation), worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, transmit, distribute, publicly perform and display (including in each case by means of a digital audio and video transmission), and advertise around the User Photos. This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service.

I strongly believe that "license to use, transmit, distibiute, [...]" does not include the right to transfer the license I grant to a.net to another service (i.e. Facebook).

I am not a lawyer, but I would advice the a.net team to quickly re-evaluate this policy. At best, I see users asking for their photos to be pulled. At worst, I could see the potential of content owners taking legal steps against a.net breaking their license agreement.

vikkyvik · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting stevemchey (Reply 18):
This limited license only allows Airliners to use your User Photos on or through the Service.

That's the key part right there. Links to A.net on Facebook were fine. Actually uploading the photos to Facebook is no longer using the photos "on or through the Service".

And no, they most definitely cannot transfer the license to another party.

Silver1SWA · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 15):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 7):
Quoting unattendedbag (Thread starter):
. Now that images are added to Facebook and displayed within Facebook, are those images subject to Facebook TOS?

This is the key area of concern, in my opinion. I'm still awaiting a response to this question both here and in private. I have asked several times.

Hi Ryan, sorry for the delay but I wanted the correct answer and that is yes.

Regards

Paul

Paul, we have two potentially huge problems here. First is the question of whether this violates Airliners.net's own Terms of Use, sounds like this violates Facebook's Terms of Service as well.

cargolex · Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Two of my photos are on the A.net facebook wall from the last week of features and one is without a watermark (I definitely watermarked it). That isn't good, and I'd like that to be pulled, even though I liked many of the comments on it and I was happy that so many people could enjoy it. I didn't realize that it didn't have a watermark until I looked at it just now.

I'm happy for the share, I'm happy my photos can be enjoyed by so many. One of the reasons I do this is that I think people get some enjoyment from these photos and that's important to me. But I'm also not comfortable with it being up there without any watermark.

In my opinion, I would recommend immediately returning to the old method of linking, rather than putting up the photos wholesale.

[Edited 2012-08-07 16:14:50]

PanAm_DC10 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 21):

Hi, as Cary noted a mistake was made about the watermarks and I apologise for that, your photo has been removed.

Social media constantly evolves and it has great for expanding the reach of the main site and increasing the profiles of our contributing photographers. We're going to continue to build upon that but to do so we need to change a little.

You may not have noticed but we now post far less per day, only 2 to 4 shots. That is right down on what we were, that said, I am listening.

We'll post the links like the past to ensure proper attribution to the photographer. Same for twitter which we intend to use more frequently than Facebook but the twitter posts will be the same style they have always been.

Quoting planespot (Reply 10):

As you can see some photographers don't have a problem, maybe due to them already using Facebook or having the image on their account already. Others have contacted me and said they're happy for their photos to be used and we'll use their shots with full link and name for attribution to them as permission has been granted.

That should be the right balance to address those concerned whilst enabling us to continue to build the business.

Regards

Paul

Silver1SWA · Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:25 am

Paul, I wish you address would our concerns more clearly. As usual, your reply leaves us with a lot of questions.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
We'll post the links like the past to ensure proper attribution to the photographer. Same for twitter which we intend to use more frequently than Facebook but the twitter posts will be the same style they have always been.

Are you saying you are going back to the old method of only linking to photos in the databes? Or are you saying you will be adding the link in addition to uploading our photos to Facebook?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
As you can see some photographers don't have a problem, maybe due to them already using Facebook or having the image on their account already. Others have contacted me and said they're happy for their photos to be used and we'll use their shots with full link and name for attribution to them as permission has been granted.

So are you saying that you will only upload photos from photographers who have given you permission?

[Edited 2012-08-07 18:26:11]

PanAm_DC10 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
Are you saying you are going back to the old method of only linking to photos in the databes?

I'm saying that for the majority of photos we'll be doing the old method, the link back to the database and a thumbnail only will display. So that will be the link alone with no photo.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
So are you saying that you will only upload photos from photographers who have given you permission?

In relation to a photo, yes. If they've given permission we'll post the photo with the link, watermark (if it has one) and their name to ensure full attribution to them as they have given their permission.

Regards

Paul

vikkyvik · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):

Thanks Paul. I hate to be confrontational, but why wasn't there a post by the crew about this change in the first place? You used to do that pretty regularly it seemed...

With regard to photos hosted on FB versus here, leaving aside the Terms of Service, I have four other reasons for wanting my photos linked to here:

1.) It allows me to better track photo views. I like to see which of my photos are more popular, and I hardly ever log into Facebook.

2.) I hate to say this, but the photo thumbnails in FB's Timeline setup look really stupid. They're forced-square or whatever it's called, meaning all the photos are cut off.

3.) I'd MUCH rather folks see the full-size photo, as I edited it, rather than FB's compressed, resized version. None of the photos look as good.

4.) How the heck would I even know one of my photos was posted on FB? The only way I know now is if I see the photo views on A.net jump significantly.

PanAm_DC10 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:39 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25):
Thanks Paul. I hate to be confrontational

Hi Vik, I don't see it as confrontational and the reason for no post was we were experimenting to see how the changes would work out. I'll do my best to post up in the future.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25):
With regard to photos hosted on FB versus here

As noted in reply 24 any shots of yours will be linked as we we've been doing all along.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25):
2.) I hate to say this, but the photo thumbnails in FB's Timeline setup look really stupid. They're forced-square or whatever it's called, meaning all the photos are cut off.

We have no control over how they display either the thumbnail (or picture) as it all changed when they moved to their new format. However, by sharing the link as we have always done a Facebook fan must click it to see the full image on the main site.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25):
3.) I'd MUCH rather folks see the full-size photo, as I edited it, rather than FB's compressed, resized version. None of the photos look as good.

Refer above, by sharing the link they've no choice but to click it to see it on the main site.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25):
4.) How the heck would I even know one of my photos was posted on FB? The only way I know now is if I see the photo views on A.net jump significantly.

The best way is for you to check the "links to your photos" and it'll show any Facebook links. You also don't need to be a member of Facebook nor have an account to visit our page to see if it has been posted

Regards

Paul

vikkyvik · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 26):
As noted in reply 24 any shots of yours will be linked as we we've been doing all along.

I know, and I appreciate it. I was just expressing WHY I feel the way I do, since I hadn't really said that before.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 26):
We have no control over how they display either the thumbnail (or picture) as it all changed when they moved to their new format.

Again, I know. I hate the "Timeline" setup in general, and this is just one more thing to hate about it.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 26):

The best way is for you to check the "links to your photos" and it'll show any Facebook links.

Right, sorry, I forgot about that, but it's the same deal - if the photo is hosted on Facebook, the links won't be there.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 26):
You also don't need to be a member of Facebook nor have an account to visit our page to see if it has been posted

Again, I know, but the only times I visit Facebook is if I'm logging into my account, which, as I said, is extremely sporadic.

unattendedbag · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
In relation to a photo, yes. If they've given permission we'll post the photo with the link, watermark (if it has one) and their name to ensure full attribution to them as they have given their permission.

That sounds good, thank you. For my photos, if I had to choose between influencing the top 24 or displaying anything more than a thumbnail on Facebook, I would choose influencing the 24.

It looks like Vik asked most of the questions I had in my queue. However, there is one more. Of the images that were uploaded to Facebook and displayed through that site, most had a link back to airliners.net in the description while several did not. Even the most recent photo, the Etihad Airbus, didn't contain a link back to the site. Was there a reason for that?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
That should be the right balance to address those concerned whilst enabling us to continue to build the business.

Which leads me to ask... Which site, airliners.net or Facebook, are we trying to build? I would really like to know if this site is secondary to that of Facebook.

McG1967 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:50 pm

Paul,

At the moment there is an option for a photo to be included in the photo sales when uploading. Given your statements above, a similar option should be included within the upload area, along with a detailed explanation of what granting permission for A.net to upload a photo to Facebook means for the photographer with regards to the Facebook TOS.

Mark

Silver1SWA · Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 24):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):Are you saying you are going back to the old method of only linking to photos in the databes?
I'm saying that for the majority of photos we'll be doing the old method, the link back to the database and a thumbnail only will display. So that will be the link alone with no photo.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):So are you saying that you will only upload photos from photographers who have given you permission?
In relation to a photo, yes. If they've given permission we'll post the photo with the link, watermark (if it has one) and their name to ensure full attribution to them as they have given their permission.

Regards

Paul

Thanks for clarifying that, Paul.

[Edited 2012-08-08 10:06:20]

vikkyvik · Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 29):
At the moment there is an option for a photo to be included in the photo sales when uploading. Given your statements above, a similar option should be included within the upload area, along with a detailed explanation of what granting permission for A.net to upload a photo to Facebook means for the photographer with regards to the Facebook TOS.

Ha, good point. Will A.net assume that photographers give permission to upload to FB, or assume that they do not?

Silver1SWA · Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 31):
Will A.net assume that photographers give permission to upload to FB, or assume that they do not?

Um, right now I believe they have to assume photographers do not give permission. If they want to get photographers' permission, the idea of including a check box is a good idea.

vikkyvik · Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 32):
Um, right now I believe they have to assume photographers do not give permission.

That's logical, yes, but clearly they already had been assuming we DO give permission, so.....

Africaspotter · Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:08 am

I don't give my permission.

ptrjong · Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 28):
Which leads me to ask... Which site, airliners.net or Facebook, are we trying to build? I would really like to know if this site is secondary to that of Facebook.

Exactly. I can see that a presence on Facebook is desirable, to attract people to Airliners.net. I fail to understand, and am wary of, anything beyond that.

Peter

Stealthz · Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 13):
I thought Airliners.net is where one came for those things yet the home page suggests you go elsewhere.

Sorry Paul,

I don't see anyone responding to this point.

The Anet home page encourages visitors to go to the Anet FB page which is a very second rate user experience compared to Anet yet there is nothing on that page that might entice FB users to discover the many resources and wide range of content and photos available at Anet.

If it is the intention of Anet management and Demand Media to turn the site(and the IP of the members) into nothing more than a "click generator" (and hence revenue) for FB, that intention should be firmly stated and the community allowed to decide if that is how they want to continue.

If this is the intention I fear there will be many who may not wish their IP(images) be allowed to remain on the site.

Looking forward to hearing how the future of this site is being managed.

Regards

Chris

andyhunt · Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:40 pm

I give full permission. And its fun having my pics on FB.

Andrew

PanAm_DC10 · Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 28):
Which leads me to ask... Which site, airliners.net or Facebook, are we trying to build? I would really like to know if this site is secondary to that of Facebook.

The main site will always be the priority.

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 29):

Thanks for the suggestion Mark though at the moment we only need to use a few and we'll ask the photographer beforehand, we still will be posting with the shared link as we have always done the majority of the time.

Regards

Paul

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