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Fly-K
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Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:03 am

Just to warn fellow photographers on a guy named Bryan Quek running a facebook page called World of Aviation (not the one run by Bjoern Schmitt!) using 100% copied (or should I stay stolen) content from airlineroute.net and photos from airliners.net (without permission), who has the audacity to have attitude when confronted with it, and just blocking those who question his behavior (since he blocked me immediately, I can't provide links anymore). This guy is based in Singapore, so just beware.
 
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tmfra
Posts: 44
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:24 pm

I will do that for you Konstantin!

https://www.facebook.com/pages/World-of-Aviation/141462972700072?sk=photos_stream

Names of a.net photographers I have found so far:
- Yochai Mossi
- Cesar Novaes
- Roberto Prawiro
- Hualiang Liao
- Li Jichun
- Michael van Bosch
- E.N. Loubser
- Christian Bottel
- Maksimov Maxim
- Alessandro Lukas
- Tamás Terjék
- Fabrizio Berni
- Tim Hillier
- Jakub Mielniczak
- James Pentland
- Paul Markman
- Richard Vandervord
- Galen Burrows
- Andy Egloff
- Miguel Alia
- Ashley Wallace
- K. Bell
- João Toste
- Nicholas Young
- Jason Whitebird
- Manny Gonzalez
- Winston Setiawan
- CF Yuen
- Chema Gómez
- Chris Gimmillaro
- Amrit Kannan
- Sergio Domingos
- Khuat Quang Huy

...and so on. The list is endless! Just check it out yourself and in case you find a picture with your copyright here´s a link to facebook´s help page to report any copyright issues. Hope the page shows up in english for you guys but I´m not sure.

https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/208282075858952

[Edited 2015-02-09 06:25:40]
 
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planespot
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:32 pm

Thanks, I reported one of my photos and encourage everyone else to do the same. It takes 3 minutes, and with enough reports, FB will eventually shut the whole page down.
 
henkita217
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:51 am

Is this the group that uses a photo from let's say, Anet, to assist with reporting with news, route updates and changes etc?

If so, doesn't he credit the photographer and also leaves the photo with watermark and copyright bar intact?

I could be thinking of a different group.
 
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planespot
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting henkita217 (Reply 3):
Is this the group that uses a photo from let's say, Anet, to assist with reporting with news, route updates and changes etc?

If so, doesn't he credit the photographer and also leaves the photo with watermark and copyright bar intact?

I could be thinking of a different group.

It doesn't matter that he credits the photographer and/or leaves the watermark/copyright bar...it's still copyright infringement. If he wants to do it the proper way, he needs to simply link to the photo and let FB create a thumbnail.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:39 pm

It's not just photos he's copied, he's copied an entire article off Aviation Week onto a caption of an A380 photo (which probably was someone else's too).

Quoting planespot (Reply 4):
It doesn't matter that he credits the photographer and/or leaves the watermark/copyright bar...it's still copyright infringement.

  

Quoting planespot (Reply 4):
If he wants to do it the proper way, he needs to simply link to the photo and let FB create a thumbnail.

Or alternatively, ask the photographers for permission to use their photographs.

[Edited 2015-02-10 05:43:21]
 
len90
Posts: 1174
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:01 pm

Thanks for the heads up. Searched back through mid October on the page and have about 10 of mine already. Hopefully a few complaints will shut the page down completely.
 
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trevisan26
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:39 am

Facebook already removed my picture. May be with some more reports all the page goes down.

I cant understand it, why steal pictures if you can ask directly by e-mail here at airliners? I wouldn't request even 1 cent to publish on that page with the credits.
 
angad84
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:10 am

Quoting trevisan26 (Reply 7):
May be with some more reports all the page goes down.

Sadly, that almost never happens. I know of pages that have seen repeated infringement reports and content takedowns, but remain stubbornly up.

Cheers
Angad
 
airimage
Posts: 123
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:16 am

This old chestnut again.
As someone said before, at least they have the decency to keep the 'copyright' in the photo. They even credit you by name in the post.

If anyone is serious about their photography, they wouldn't be posting their hard earned here.

EDIT - Out of interest, I joined the A.net Facebook group and found out that A.net have got it all wrong.
People don't want to go to web sites to view an image. They want to see the image there.....on their facebook page.


It seems to me that this is all about directing hits back to this web site and the pretentious amongst you have fallen for it.

[Edited 2015-02-14 16:33:53]
 
CXB77L
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting airimage (Reply 9):
As someone said before, at least they have the decency to keep the 'copyright' in the photo. They even credit you by name in the post.

And as someone else said before, crediting the source of a photograph does not excuse copyright infringement, nor is it an automatic licence for you to copy and paste that photograph somewhere else without the consent of the photographer.

Quoting airimage (Reply 9):
People don't want to go to web sites to view an image. They want to see the image there.....on their facebook page.

It seems to me that this is all about directing hits back to this web site and the pretentious amongst you have fallen for it.

Well then those 'people' need to learn to respect copyright. I don't see how it's any harder for them to click on the link which directs them to the photograph hosted here than it is for them to open a photo on Facebook. In any case, viewing the photo is just one click away.

And secondly, it's hardly about being pretentious, it's about protecting the rights of photographers not to have their photographs copied without their consent.
 
airimage
Posts: 123
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:30 pm

Their copyright is still in the photo though.
It's like saying you can't take photos of paintings in an art gallery unless you ask the painters permission.
 
Chukcha
Posts: 2019
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:57 am

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting airimage (Reply 11):
It's like saying you can't take photos of paintings in an art gallery unless you ask the painters permission.

You can take them, but you can't put then on public display.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting airimage (Reply 11):
Their copyright is still in the photo though.
It's like saying you can't take photos of paintings in an art gallery unless you ask the painters permission.

... and you can't.

Recently visited the National Gallery and noticed that many paintings have a "no photography" sign, while others don't. Curious about this, I asked a curator. It turns out the owner of the painting (as many are on loan from private collections or other galleries) has to expressly give the National Gallery permission to allow photography, otherwise it's "no photography" by default.

Of course, as has been said, even if you are allowed to take a picture, it's for personal use only and can't be republished.

Ultimately the problem lies in a fundamental conflict between the ethos of social media and copyright law. Social media encourages the concept of sharing (as indeed does A.net). In practice, anything appearing on Facebook (and this includes the A.net page) might be deemed "shareable" - is sharing a breach of copyright, or does posting an image imply a right to share? Sharing is different to copying, but the difference is subtle.

So on the one hand we have the general public who are being encouraged to participate in a sharing culture, on the other we have a very small proportion of that public who have any understanding of copyright laws. Is it any surprise people are having images "stolen"?

A.net is doing nothing to help this situation - it is trying to be both a social experience (part of web 2.0) and protect photographer's rights. Well it can't (in any practical way). It has to decide whether to be an image repository, locked down like any number of commercial photo library sites, or accept that non-commercial re-use is part and parcel of the A.net experience.

Personally I don't have a big problem with non-commercial re-use. I see it as free advertising. Of course using an image for potential personal gain and/or "stealing" an image by changing the attribution is a different matter.



Cheers,

Colin
 
CXB77L
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:50 am

Quoting airimage (Reply 11):
Their copyright is still in the photo though.

Yes, it is, which is why it cannot be posted on any other website without the express permission of the copyright owner. Copyright gives the owner, among other things, the exclusive right to reproduce and to communicate to the public, both of which are infringed by this Facebook page posting photos from airliners.net onto their site, regardless of whether or not the photo has been correctly attributed. Some photographers might not mind, but that is at the discretion of each individual photographer. Just because some will allow the sharing and copying of their photographs doesn't mean every other will, or even should.

Copyright is not infringed if the link to the photo is published instead of the photograph itself. There is no intellectual property right in a link.
 
310815
Posts: 1039
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:03 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting ckw (Reply 13):
Ultimately the problem lies in a fundamental conflict between the ethos of social media and copyright law. Social media encourages the concept of sharing (as indeed does A.net). In practice, anything appearing on Facebook (and this includes the A.net page) might be deemed "shareable" - is sharing a breach of copyright, or does posting an image imply a right to share? Sharing is different to copying, but the difference is subtle.

So on the one hand we have the general public who are being encouraged to participate in a sharing culture, on the other we have a very small proportion of that public who have any understanding of copyright laws. Is it any surprise people are having images "stolen"?

A.net is doing nothing to help this situation - it is trying to be both a social experience (part of web 2.0) and protect photographer's rights. Well it can't (in any practical way). (...)

Personally I don't have a big problem with non-commercial re-use. I see it as free advertising. Of course using an image for potential personal gain and/or "stealing" an image by changing the attribution is a different matter.

Very well said. Fully agree with that.
I've had that discussion before, someone said that I would risk my shots being printed because I upload them at rather large sizes, but as long as it is non-commercial I simply don't care.

And yes there is a very thin line between sharing and copying and I think a lot of people don even know if they are doing somthing wrong.

Julien
 
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planespot
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:40 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting airimage (Reply 11):
Their copyright is still in the photo though.
It's like saying you can't take photos of paintings in an art gallery unless you ask the painters permission.

That's a terrible analogy...a proper comparison is that he's making exact copies of the paintings, and putting them on display in his own art gallery, which drives traffic to his own pieces.
 
airimage
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:18 am

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting planespot (Reply 16):
That's a terrible analogy...a proper comparison is that he's making exact copies of the paintings, and putting them on display in his own art gallery, which drives traffic to his own pieces.

Yes...He's making exact copies including the copyright and as I said before, taking the trouble to actually type said persons name with the post.

It's pretty obvious he's not pretending to have taken the photos himself isn't it?
Or is it really all about site traffic as you mention and I agree with?
 
AndyEastMids
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:24 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:42 am

I absolutely loath World Of Aviation... As has been said, Brian Quek steals photos from where ever he pleases (not just a.net) and posts the on his Facebook page. His page is pretty active, although he posts almost nothing that is original -it's almost all (if not all) lifted from elsewhere. It wouldn't be quite so bad if he posted links or shared, but almost invariably he doesn't - he saves the photo and then reposts the photo on his page. He obviously knows he's doing wrong, because if any photographer has the "audacity" to complain to him about copyright violation he doesn't give them the courtesy of a reply, he just blocks them so they can't comment anymore. I have had photos stolen by him, I have been blocked so I can't comment or message him about copyright violation, I have complained to Facebook and succeeded in getting my photos removed from the page (sometimes), I have pointed out copyright violations to other photographers affected and they have managed to get Facebook to remove photos. I have banned him from the big Facebook aviation photography group I help manage. But still the page remains. He is a plague on aviation photography and I fervently hope that one day the entire page will be taken down and he'll be removed from Facebook. I'd feel a bit differently if he posted links or just asked first, but he doesn't...
 
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planespot
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:40 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting airimage (Reply 17):
Yes...He's making exact copies including the copyright and as I said before, taking the trouble to actually type said persons name with the post.

It's pretty obvious he's not pretending to have taken the photos himself isn't it?
Or is it really all about site traffic as you mention and I agree with?

It's ILLEGALLY using other people's content without paying for it, to drive traffic to his own page/videos that is the problem. I don't know why you're continually praising him for including the copyright and crediting the photographer. Like I said before, it's still plain-as-day copyright infringement.

[Edited 2015-02-20 14:27:11]
 
airimage
Posts: 123
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:19 pm

If the images are being used commercially, then yes of course that's an issue.
It's a facebook page FFS with 'low res' images!
 
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planespot
Posts: 145
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting airimage (Reply 20):
If the images are being used commercially, then yes of course that's an issue.
It's a facebook page FFS with 'low res' images!

And it's all linked to his YouTube page, which can make him money. 1200+ pixels isn't exactly "low res". It's high enough that viewers won't click through the non-existent link to A.net, to view the picture. That's exactly why using a small thumbnail to link through to the original site and the full photo is generally legal, while re-posting the original without consent is generally ILLEGAL. Maybe if you had your better photos stolen and used to profit someone else, you'd care. Instead, you're trying to convince people who have actually had their work stolen, that it doesn't matter.
 
henkita217
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:39 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:29 am

To clarify my comment earlier, I think aviation pages like this is much worse offender:

https://www.facebook.com/airlinermodels/timeline

Scroll down to one of the more recent photo of the Dreamline of Azerbijan, shot by a fellow Sydney spotter Andrew Coggan.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Coggan



By "much worse offender", I meant ya know.... copyright bar gone, a different name claiming the photo.. 100,000 likes..

Yes, two wrong don't make it any better, but anyway, you get what I'm trying to say.

Cheers,
H
 
megatop412
Posts: 344
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RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:06 pm

Colin has said it best. Speaking to the cultural dichotomy between this site and fb, I too agree that this site cannot successfully achieve the aims of both sharing the work and also protecting it, not with the way people have been getting trained to use the internet in the last 7-8 years. The sharing culture has totally blurred the lines of what is and isn't acceptable behavior as it relates to photos on the web, and it isn't just fb that has encouraged this. Because of this, and much to the chagrin of many here, this issue will never go away unfortunately.
 
CXB77L
Posts: 2613
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:18 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting airimage (Reply 17):
Yes...He's making exact copies including the copyright and as I said before, taking the trouble to actually type said persons name with the post.

It doesn't matter. Crediting the source of the photo doesn't make it any less an infringement of copyright than not crediting it. Whichever way you look at it, the unauthorised reproduction and distribution of photos constitute an infringement of copyright, which is illegal.

Quoting planespot (Reply 19):
Like I said before, it's still plain-as-day copyright infringement.

  

Quoting AndyEastMids (Reply 18):
He is a plague on aviation photography and I fervently hope that one day the entire page will be taken down and he'll be removed from Facebook. I'd feel a bit differently if he posted links or just asked first, but he doesn't...

  

I don't have any photos on a.net for him to steal, but I agree entirely and share your hope that one day that page will be taken down and that he'll be banned. I find copyright infringement to be deplorable, especially when it's this blatant and deliberate.

Quoting airimage (Reply 20):
If the images are being used commercially, then yes of course that's an issue.
It's a facebook page FFS with 'low res' images!

Whether or not an image is used for commercial purposes is irrelevant to the fact that making a copy of a photograph and re-uploading it onto the internet, with or without credit to the original source, hi-res or low-res, is copyright infringement. If he had instead posted links to where the original images are hosted, that'd be an entirely different story.

[Edited 2015-02-21 08:25:43]
 
airimage
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:18 am

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:57 pm

If Airliners.net were REALLY serious about copyright then they would disable the 'save image as' option wouldn't they?
I know it wouldn't/won't stop it but it would at least make it a little more difficult.

Or is it not that simple?
 
bencambridge
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:52 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:00 pm

For reporting copyright infringement to Facebook, this link will do the trick. You don't even need to have a Facebook account to report it.

https://www.facebook.com/help/400287850027717/
 
unattendedbag
Posts: 2195
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:35 pm

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:25 pm

Quoting airimage (Reply 25):
If Airliners.net were REALLY serious about copyright then they would disable the 'save image as' option wouldn't they?

So is it the photographer's fault or the website's fault? It's never the person who steals the photo's fault.

Airliners.net at least, in writing, protects the photographer from others copying and posting photos to other websites. I have allowed my images to be used by various websites with the understanding that the image will not be given away, sold or altered without my permission. The problem with Facebook is that its TOS is about as liberal as they come. Once an image is on Facebook, it becomes the property of Facebook and can be used by them for a multitude of purposes. Will they use my photo, probably not, but the terms still stand and I don't agree with them.

It would be great if you respected our beliefs regarding how our images are shared. We have never entered a discussion to argue against your beliefs. If you want to give your photos away, that's fine. It's just not for the remaining 95% of us.

I followed the link Ben provided and had my photo removed. Need to do a more in depth search for others. I hope everyone else on here will do the same (except Steve, you do what you want)..
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Copyrights Issue Fb Page World Of Aviation

Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:12 am

Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 27):
So is it the photographer's fault or the website's fault? It's never the person who steals the photo's fault.

Obviously the person using the image is in the wrong, but a certain amount of responsibility lies with the photographer and the website. If someone steals from my house if I've left the windows open and the door unlocked is it not partly my own fault?

Cheers,

Colin

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