A post for the community to advise on some recent changes that some have already noticed the start of.

There is a desire for content on the site that pushes the boundaries past the standard “sunny side on” or static display images. These images have proven to be very popular with our viewers and also allow our photographers to showcase a different side of their work. Of course the site desires the continuing upload and acceptance of more "standard" images – it is a database and these images contribute to that nature of the site.

In order to support the upload and acceptance of images that push the limits of photographic skill and creativity, and encourage more photographers to share these images on our site, we have established some guidelines for creative and technically difficult images, and a process for having these reviewed by a dedicated team of screeners.

It is no secret that over the years, screening has been done following relatively strict guidelines:

- The colour of an image is judged acceptable if it matches the colour of a mid-morning or mid-afternoon side-on. Cast for the lighting conditions found in early morning or evening or night time are often rejected for not looking as though they were taken mid-day.

- Centering of aircraft has also followed relatively strict criteria, which can be appropriate for side-ons where no motivation to off-center the aircraft exists. We have done better at recognizing off center compositions allowing for motivation by the background, but not consistently.

- Images taken under low light conditions (dusk/dawn) or after sunset (not stationary aircraft taken with long exposure times) have traditionally received relatively harsh treatment from screeners. While there can be many reasons for this, probably one of the most significant is understanding the difficulties of creating these images, and therefore not understanding what creates an acceptable shot under those conditions. The result is the use of the same requirements as for sunny side-ons, and we see a lot of great images rejected. The fact of the matter is, a panning image taken after sunset at ISO 3200 plus, will not have the same sharpness or grain as the same aircraft taken mid-afternoon 1/1250 shutter and f/8 – yet we apply the same criteria. Many photographers have simply given up uploading these images, even though what they are submitting is the best of the genre!

So….. what will we use as the definition of images falling under these guidelines? One easy way to define creative images is to say that they are any images that do not fall under 90% of the accepted images: sunny side-ons and static display shots – and then start from there.

- Images of moving aircraft (i.e. not traditional tripod/long exposure night shots of static aircraft) shot under low light conditions. The low light conditions could be night, or close to sunrise/sunset, or even caused by weather conditions (i.e. snow or rain)

- Images that require the extreme limits of photographic equipment, skills/technique and processing – high ISO, grain reduction, VR/IS in order to pull the shot off

- Long exposure images capturing light trails, streaks (i.e. not traditional static aircraft night shots)

- Images with creative compositions or cropping:
---> The composition needs to be balanced, the rule of thirds is a good baseline, and the aircraft can be off center provided there is some motivation for it.
---> Distance can be less strict – crop does not have to be as close as a database style image.

- Silhouettes by nature are not intending to show the aircraft under database style conditions, and therefore could be allowed to show some flaws such as heat/jet wash waves

- We will still insist on good quality of images and editing – if an image has basic editing flaws we will reject it with a detailed personal on what needs to be fixed up

We have put together a dedicated team of screeners and a way for the screening team to direct images to this team. We look forward to the community support as we implement this, there will be a leaning curve - we will reject some that shouldn't be and we add some that maybe should;t have been, but we will move forward.

Anyone with specific questions can email me at [email protected]

Thanks
Pete

Well that's definitely a step forward .... shame it took so long. I wonder how many photographers were lost due to that?

Cheers,

Colin

Quoting ckw (Reply 1): shame it took so long. I wonder how many photographers were lost due to that?

A valid question, but we are focusing on moving forward.

Pete

I have neither the skills or equipment to take the shots that will be accepted under these guidelines, but I'm very pleased to read that the site has decided to move in this direction. While airliners.net will continue to be a database of "sunny side on" images, it can expand to include images that capture the spirit of aviation, while still maintaining strict quality standards. I believe that the more creative images are essential to the survival of this site, because, as you said, they are what seem to be drawing the viewers.

Congratulations team, and thank you.

Quoting alevik (Thread starter): Many photographers have simply given up uploading these images, even though what they are submitting is the best of the genre!

Photographers haven't given up on these images, they've given up.... period!!! Sadly a great many very good ones will never be back. The barn door is closed but the horses are already gone.

Quoting ckw (Reply 1): Well that's definitely a step forward .... shame it took so long. I wonder how many photographers were lost due to that?

Yup, far too many IMHO.

Quoting alevik (Thread starter):

Good to hear, Pete.

Wanted to note that I've had several images accepted in the last few weeks that I never thought stood a chance (low light / high ISO / panning mostly), so that's been gratifying.

Related question - when did the new guidelines go into effect? As in, if we've had shots rejected, say, two weeks ago, can we resubmit them unchanged?

Also, there was a move to accept more "creative" images a couple of years ago - is this intended to go beyond that (not sure if that was still in effect)?

Thanks.

Definitely the best news for a very long time at airliners.net! Hopefully you will be able to get some photographers back uploading...myself included.

/Alex

A very welcome, long awaited move. Now comes the time where we see what is acceptable under these new rules and what isn't. I just hope that there's a more rigorous process so that these images don't just get rejected on the first look.

Could we perhaps get some basic examples in this thread, just for simple souls such as myself to understand what these new rules mean....in practical terms??


No Tax On Rotax

Great news! A step forward. I feel a bit more hopeful.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 5): Related question - when did the new guidelines go into effect? As in, if we've had shots rejected, say, two weeks ago, can we resubmit them unchanged? Also, there was a move to accept more "creative" images a couple of years ago - is this intended to go beyond that (not sure if that was still in effect)?

We have really only gone live this week, but if you have had one rejected snd think it might qualify under the new guidelines then reupload with a note indicating as such.

As for previous attempts to encourage more creative images, this is similar, with a bit more guidance and an infrastructure to support adding them.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 4): Photographers haven't given up on these images, they've given up.... period!!! Sadly a great many very good ones will never be back. The barn door is closed but the horses are already gone.

There are always glass is half empty folks who would like to commiserate about the past. Feel free to do so, and I recognize some people have left. We can't change that but we already see many many photos up and coming who can readily replace them - and we want to encourage them.

Pete

Good news and I look forward to seeing the result of this! More possibilities to look up the boundaries  

Would the uploaded photos still have to be single shots? Or is a well-executed stacked photo also acceptable under these new guidelines?

EDIT: in particular this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kasvanzonneveld/15201850524/in/photostream/lightbox/

[Edited 2015-08-25 07:55:13]

Okay this explains the EK 777F belly shot taken on the ramp in AMS that made it. When seeing that photo I immediately thought that that photo wasn't airliners.net material as I knew them (having uploaded photos for a long time now on the site). I do like this change and I think we will see more of these type of creative shots in the airliners.net database. Do photos taken at SXM (over Mahoo Beach) fall in the category off centered cropping or more distant photos as explained here because of the surrounding scenery?


A388

Great news!

I'll ask here in the thread because it can be the answer for someone. Whats about this kind of creative picture, considering SBPA is the airport code and its a single shot?
http://img1.jetphotos.net:8080/img/6/7/6/1/64270_1434864167.jpg

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 11): Would the uploaded photos still have to be single shots? Or is a well-executed stacked photo also acceptable under these new guidelines?

If I want to capture an aircraft with the stars trails in the sky, I personally wouldn't make a single 3h exposure, heating the sensor and having a much bigger error chance. If its perfect stacked I don't see any problem, lets see a position about this in the next days.

Quoting A388 (Reply 12): Do photos taken at SXM (over Mahoo Beach) fall in the category off centered cropping or more distant photos as explained here because of the surrounding scenery?

In my experience, the Maho Beach shots already have some lenience for centered/cropping, a little more/less depending on the screener, but more lenience would be great   

Quoting A388 (Reply 12): Okay this explains the EK 777F belly shot taken on the ramp in AMS that made it. When seeing that photo I immediately thought that that photo wasn't airliners.net material as I knew them (having uploaded photos for a long time now on the site).

I'd disagree - I think that photo would have been added anyway.

Quoting trevisan26 (Reply 13): Quoting airkas1 (Reply 11):Would the uploaded photos still have to be single shots? Or is a well-executed stacked photo also acceptable under these new guidelines? If I want to capture an aircraft with the stars trails in the sky, I personally wouldn't make a single 3h exposure, heating the sensor and having a much bigger error chance. If its perfect stacked I don't see any problem, lets see a position about this in the next days.

That would be nice, but I doubt it'll happen. I have lots of multiple-exposure shots I would upload....

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14): I'd disagree - I think that photo would have been added anyway.

Yep, that is pretty debatable.

That is why I said earlier: a few hands on examples of recently accepted pictures (at which the new rules had been applied); are more than welcome!

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Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14): I'd disagree - I think that photo would have been added anyway.

I recall reading somewhere that fisheye shots with black corners are a no-go here. I just skimmed the rules and can't find anything to that effect, so it must have been in a feedback thread. Definitely do recall hearing it though.

Cheers
A

Quoting A388 (Reply 12): Do photos taken at SXM (over Mahoo Beach) fall in the category off centered cropping or more distant photos as explained here because of the surrounding scenery?

Photos over Maho beach, or over the PetroCan station in CYYZ, or other similar images have been accepted for awhile, primarily because there is a clear motivation for the off centre crop/distance. Unfortunately we sometimes have similar photos rejected because the motivation is not seen as being as clear.

In the new guidance, the screeners are asked that rather than reject an image for motive in a "creative" crop, they refer it to the dedicated team. This way we can have a smaller group and try to be more consistent with these types of images.

Pete

Quoting trevisan26 (Reply 13): I'll ask here in the thread because it can be the answer for someone. Whats about this kind of creative picture, considering SBPA is the airport code and its a single shot? http://img1.jetphotos.net:8080/img/6...7.jpg

I know this particular image was rejected here previously, and I honestly am on the fence about it. It definitely is creative, and given the new guidelines I would say there certainly be a different conversation around it now.

Pete

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 11): Would the uploaded photos still have to be single shots? Or is a well-executed stacked photo also acceptable under these new guidelines?

We didn't discuss stacked exposures specifically, but we will now  

We did discuss the use of grad filters or other filters, and opinion was that if you can create it in the camera then it would acceptable. The resistance will be to overly edited photoshop creations - I know there are those that say editing is part of photography, but we want to stick closer to photography than painting in paint shop.

My view would be if you can do it in the camera it is fair game. I'll bring it up with the team for a consensus view.

Pete

Quoting angad84 (Reply 16): I recall reading somewhere that fisheye shots with black corners are a no-go here. I just skimmed the rules and can't find anything to that effect, so it must have been in a feedback thread. Definitely do recall hearing it though.

I'm pretty sure we have other circular fisheye shots, just can't find them.

I'd go with as mentioned above - if you can do it in the camera then cool.

Pete

Quoting alevik (Reply 19):

Awesome, I'd love to be able to upload stacked photos.

Quoting alevik (Reply 20):

I too am pretty sure of that. And I too cannot find them (there's really no good way to search for them).

EDIT: Just found the one I'd been looking for:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Nivedita Bhasin


[Edited 2015-08-25 18:14:32]

Hey!

Been about 3 years since my last upload, essentially stopped even visiting the site since. Saw this thread through Facebook though, so got me curious enough to poke my head in for a visit.

Most of my best images from the North were taken in winter, so in low light or darkness. I also moved away from 'standard' crops and centers a few years back, so maybe there's room for them here now too.

Any chance for something like this self-portrait then?



(And would you even have guessed it's a 4-shot stitched panoramic?)

Cheers

Jason

Quoting alevik (Reply 20): We didn't discuss stacked exposures specifically, but we will now

Thanks! I look forward to hearing the result  

Hi,

I know this wasn´t mentioned in the opening post; but I was wondering if a more lenient approach will be used for images like these?

The remote runway of Jama.

I know, no aircraft visible; but it is definitely an airfield, the white and red signs indicate this too!
It is registered and has an ICAO code, (SEJM); so not just a random farmer´s field where the odd aircraft lands.

It is a shame that I come across these smaller (and deserted) official airfields at times; knowing that it probably has no chance on Airliners.net.

The funny thing is that this pic did actually make it in the DB:


View Large View Medium

Photo © Sir Hofma



Cheers,

No Tax On Rotax

Quoting jspitfire (Reply 22): Most of my best images from the North were taken in winter, so in low light or darkness. I also moved away from 'standard' crops and centers a few years back, so maybe there's room for them here now too. Any chance for something like this self-portrait then?

Hi Jason - have missed your uploads  

I assume that this is stitched together in Photoshop? If so, unfortunately we would;t accept it - we are trying to stay away from images created too much through Photoshop/editing versus in the camera.

Quite a cool image though.

Pete

Pete,

I've previously had this rejected for Motive:

http://goo.gl/GF9SVZ

Would that now fit the new criteria.

What about this arrivals shot using a 10 stop ND filter:

http://goo.gl/8l3HZV

If they fit the general criteria then I would give both shots a go in the queue.

Regards

Mark

Quoting McG1967 (Reply 26): I've previously had this rejected for Motive: http://goo.gl/GF9SVZ Would that now fit the new criteria. What about this arrivals shot using a 10 stop ND filter: http://goo.gl/8l3HZV If they fit the general criteria then I would give both shots a go in the queue.

I would say that both of those stand very good chances under the new guidelines.

Pete

Quoting alevik (Reply 25): I assume that this is stitched together in Photoshop? If so, unfortunately we would;t accept it - we are trying to stay away from images created too much through Photoshop/editing versus in the camera.

Does that include panoramas stitched within the camera, or HDR photos merged within the camera, such as what the iPhone can do? Not sure if any "real" cameras have these functions but if not I imagine it's not far off...

If Mark's photos stand a good chance, how about this one? (I think it got done for motive the first time as well)

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b....4686ei-rel_grq_23-11-14kj---3.jpg

[Edited 2015-08-26 15:34:40]

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 24): I know this wasn´t mentioned in the opening post; but I was wondering if a more lenient approach will be used for images like these?

Images like these will always be very subjective. With many the thumbnail looks only like a grassy field, even opening it up you nee to look to find out what makes it an airport versus a farmers field.

Your Jama runway looks like a field with a rutted trail - it is hard to make out there is an airfield there. The one that was accepted at least looks more like an airfield.

Pete

Quoting airkas1 (Reply 29): If Mark's photos stand a good chance, how about this one? (I think it got done for motive the first time as well) https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...3.jpg

I would vote yes on that one.

Pete

Regarding the question on stacked images, unfortunately the consensus was not to allow them.

We may reconsider in the future, I hope so from a personal standpoint.

Pete

Quoting alevik (Reply 30): Images like these will always be very subjective.

Got it!

I may be pushing my luck, but this thread is giving us some welcome surprises; so here goes:
How is this for a motive?

The sting is in the tail!

Cheers Pete!


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Quoting Kaphias (Reply 28): Does that include panoramas stitched within the camera, or HDR photos merged within the camera, such as what the iPhone can do? Not sure if any "real" cameras have these functions but if not I imagine it's not far off...

My a99 (a full frame SLR camera targeted to professionals and advanced amateurs) can stack for noise reduction, stack for HDR, and stitch panoramas. Amongst other things.

HDR, even if in camera I consider stacked as the camera takes more than one frame.

Quoting alevik (Reply 18): I know this particular image was rejected here previously, and I honestly am on the fence about it. It definitely is creative, and given the new guidelines I would say there certainly be a different conversation around it now.

Yes, it was rejected by motive some months ago. Well, I'll wait the green (or red) card to upload or not this one. Remember, its made on camera   

Thanks for taking a step to allow for some creativity for the site! Looking forward to seeing more "creative" shots.

I may be pushing distance too far here, but I was just wondering if this one is acceptable...

Quoting alevik (Reply 32): Regarding the question on stacked images, unfortunately the consensus was not to allow them.

Alrighty, thanks for asking anyway!  

Quoting photopilot (Reply 4): Photographers haven't given up on these images, they've given up.... period!!! Sadly a great many very good ones will never be back. The barn door is closed but the horses are already gone.

It's far more easier to get the photographers back than you might think.

Quoting ghajdufi (Reply 38):

Depends how far they've gone...

Cheers
A

Quoting YQZ380 (Reply 36): I may be pushing distance too far here, but I was just wondering if this one is acceptable...

Nice composition......


No Tax On Rotax

As Pete has stated, this is an ongoing work and will require some time until we have some clear guidelines towards what we can accept and what not. In the meantime, please be all encouraged to upload your unusual shots (again if already tried before, and please don't forget to put a note for the screeners that this is being reuploaded under the new guidelines), the worst thing that can happen is a rejection   !

We all want to expand the scope of acceptable images, particularly including those that are technically demanding and those that show some creative work in the composition.

Cheers,
Andres

Quoting alevik (Thread starter): There is a desire for content on the site that pushes the boundaries past the standard “sunny side on” or static display images.

This desire you are speaking of, Pete, has been there years ago already. Sadly, no real attempt was made to really widen the site's horizon in that matter and we lost a great number of photographers to other sides due to that.
I don't know where the change of mind comes from now but it is surely welcome. I just hope that it will be applied in a decent well balanced way.

For instance imo, this photo: http://img1.jetphotos.net:8080/img/6/7/6/1/64270_1434864167.jpg
might be creative but it is poorly executed imo as the letters cover up way too much of the aircraft light trail. Were they only in the dark lower right hand corner it would be great.

Taking the decision of allowing such photos in or not will be a difficult task and I hope the screeners in question will be up to the task as the photos will be greatly representative of the quality of the site as a whole.

Wishing us all good luck!

Thierry

I may have overlooked this but when uploading creative shots do we need to put a message as well to the screener to indicate the photo was taken with this category in mind?


A388

Quoting A388 (Reply 43): I may have overlooked this but when uploading creative shots do we need to put a message as well to the screener to indicate the photo was taken with this category in mind?

Yes

Quoting A388 (Reply 43): I may have overlooked this but when uploading creative shots do we need to put a message as well to the screener to indicate the photo was taken with this category in mind?

Time being this is the preferred option, as it will make our life a little easier when screening. Most probably, these pictures at least at the beginning will take a bit longer to screen than the average one, as most will have to be discussed amongst the team.

In any case, please note that labeling it as creative does not automatically mean that it will be treated differently from any other picture, otherwise we could expect from some uploaders to have all of their pictures labeled as such...yeah, unfortunately things like that happen!

As we have said, this is a team effort aimed at providing a chance for special pictures to be included in the database that previously simply wouldn't make it due to our established acceptance guidelines. So it is up to all of us photographers to let lose on our imagination and creativity and upload the results, always remembering that we will require the highest possible quality for an acceptance.

Hopefully we will soon start to see more of these shots being added, looking forward   !

Cheers,
Andrés

Wow! Great news.

Does such photos will be considered as Anet suitable now?





[Edited 2015-08-28 13:32:56]

Hello All.

For those of us who have stuck with the site through the years, this makes for interesting reading. As has been said, we've had some very interesting debates about this whole topic area in years gone by. I, for one, will be keen to follow progress to see how A.net develops in the coming months.

All the best.

Paul

Another point I would love to see reviewed (again), and which could be nicely done along the "creative" review, is the "motive" rule. It has been relaxed a bit not so long ago but imo it is still ridiculous sometimes what is being rejected because of motive when the tiniest bit (talking of less than 1%) of an aircraft is blocked by some equipment.
Airports are a working environment and not a display surface for aviation photographers and their preferred subjects so while I agree that not half or even a quarter of an aircraft should be blocked on a photo I fail to see why photos with very small obstructions are still so obstinately rejected.

Thierry

Quoting ThierryD (Reply 48):

Agreed.

While we're discussing this, is there any chance that the creative team's remit will include shots with different aspect ratios? I'm particularly interested in whether 16:9 images will be accepted.