Prescreening

zbot69 · Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:52 pm

Hey guys!

First off, thanks to Darren, Gary, Matteo and Dana for your feedback on the previous submission! All the feedback is always appreciated. Next up in the queue:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/j1312623688.8831ke604_3552d.jpg

Thanks again in advance for the feedback!

Cheers!

flight · Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:37 pm

Hey nice shot,

Colors seem to have a bit of a cast on my PC- yellow/red but just a bit, easy to fix. Also might be a bit overshrpend in some places. Exposure seems a bit on the bright side for. Well that what I see

Good luck

Steven.

dlowwa · Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:41 pm

Hi Martin,

Quoting flight (Reply 1):
Colors seem to have a bit of a cast on my PC- yellow/red but just a bit, easy to fix. Also might be a bit overshrpend in some places. Exposure seems a bit on the bright side for.

He's right about the color, but wrong about the sharpening, as it's actually a little soft. Also, it needs more contrast rather than less exposure as the blacks are a bit weak.

zbot69 · Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:32 pm

Hey guys!

Bit preoccupied with markets melting down left and right etc. Thanks for the quick replies Steven and Dana! Had a bit of time to update the first pic. Increased contrast, added 15% sharpening via contrast mask @ 2 pixels and made no color adjustments on this go-around, save some desaturation:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...ready/e1312901944.687dsc_3552f.jpg

Also tried some window shots. Noticed some different elements come into play. Get some feedback first before I make more adjustments. Noticed sharpening was a lot trickier. Wondering if that's the result of the window effect and the engine exhaust. At any rate, here it is:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...ready/v1312902703.008dsc_3324a.jpg

Thanks again for the input!

[Edited 2011-08-09 08:37:46]

dlowwa · Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:47 pm

Both are looking a bit noisy. First one might need an adjustment to the sharpening. You can email me the original if you want and I will have a go at it. Second one is borderline motive, as there is not much wing or other aviation-related subject visible (Kai Tak barely visible right side?), and probably needs contrast adjustment (more).

zbot69 · Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:57 pm

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 4):

Hey Dana! Thanks for your prompt assistance and for the generous offer. I'll have to muddle through though if I ever hope to get this Photoshop stuff under the knee. To reduce noise I attempted selective sharpening of edges on the aircraft instead of the whole aircraft. And for the window shot I applied some noise reduction with Neat Image and uploaded at a smaller resolution. I increased contrast but the upload looks different from the original. My file is at least 10% darker than what shows after the upload. Here ya go:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/big/ready/g1312930471.7445dsc_3552b.jpg

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/c1312926369.5809dsc_3324a.jpg

On the motive subject Im' a little less clear. As a rule I reference database photos before attempting uploads to see what the standards are. In this case I found this, since our flight path was essentially the same:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bill Campbell

Thanks again Dana!

[Edited 2011-08-09 16:03:05]

dlowwa · Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:58 am

The KE is still a bit noisy. Seriously, if you want me to have a crack at a better edit, send me the file, and I'll see what I can do.

Wing view... I can't compare as you've deleted the first version. This one has a soft wing, and the noise is pretty noticeable in the forested foreground. As for motive, that will be a judgment call, I was just trying to warn you of a potential issue, not saying it was an immediate killer.

zbot69 · Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:13 am

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 6):
if you want me to have a crack at a better edit, send me the file, and I'll see what I can do.

Hey Dana!

Thanks for the offer. Tell you what... if I start getting slammed again at work I'll send it. The job is sort of boom-bust, so as long as I have the time I don't mind. I was able to get my hand on an Edge Sharpening tutorial and I've tried that on this pass creating a mask via an Alpha layer. 3 hours ago I had no idea what that meant, ha ha. In hindsight it's a miracle I've gotten any images on A.net at all. Okay, moving forward... I noticed after the first round of sharpening their values fell short, so I added more sharpening, but if you still find some of the detail too soft I can go back to the mask and just apply more sharpening to the edges since I saved the mask in a PSD file. I've left the other upload up for comparison's sake. Thanks again for the time and the offer! No rushes here. I'm more of a "teach a man to fish" rather than "give a man a fish" person anyhow. Thanks for your patience and feedback!

Reedit:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/d1312959312.3218dsc_3552h.jpg

Previous:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/g1312930471.7445dsc_3552b.jpg

Cheers!

zbot69 · Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:46 pm

See, wa'd I tell ya... tons of time... had a rejection on a cabin shot which I more or less expected, just kind of threw it out there since I uploaded it in Korea and didn't have a proper monitor, see what the feedback was. More or less predictable, except the one rejection criteria (rejection reasons were "level, dark, noise, color')... the noise thing I can deal with now applying the Edge Sharpening technique... the color thing I'll just have to go off the histogram and not the actual lighting apparently, but the thing that baffles me is the level rejection... I redid the edit applying the corrections listed, save for the level. I leveled it off of the two people visible in the exposure and the closest vertical surface to them, the center partition. I've applied the same level this time too. Are the people in the shot supposed to be sideways in the shot? Don't get it at all. Don't people stand straight? At any rate... here they are:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/l1312993158.7715dsc_3010c.jpg

On the second shot I realized after taking the shot that there wasn't a single horizontal or vertical surface in the shot for levelling so instead I used average values for the left/right side of the center column display:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/l1312993332.6785dsc_3083a.jpg

Don't mind going over editing to get perfect results at all. Each time reenforces habits and I can see improvements. What I find really surprising that I am still completely unable to "see" what screeners are seeing no matter how many times I attempt to anticipate every conceivable issue. Oh well... just keep swinging.

Thanks again and cheers!

flight · Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:49 pm

Hi, nice cabin shots

They seem to suffer from leveling problems, Both can benefit from CW rotation. I agree it is hard to tell sometimes. especially on cabin shots. The Second one noisy in certain places. What ISO did you use for that one? If you are able to fix that, send it at 1000 as it will help with quality issues. But none the less Interesting shots!!

Steven.

zbot69 · Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:37 pm

Hi Steven!

Thanks for taking time out for the feedback. Flight was @ midnight, so no outside light seeping in. It was surprisingly dark for the camera, I had to crank the ISO to 800 to my surprise and tried not shooting wide open (Tokina 11-16). To make matters more entertaining the crew had a hair up theirs for some reason about taking cabin shots so within a few minutes I had to rush the shots or risk an international incident. Lol.

To be honest don't see the level issue. Going back to this "5 minute edit" concept... I've been playing with these shots and rotating them within an arc of 5 degress in every direction because of the wide angle distortion and for the first shot I've relied on the vertical position of the two people in the shot and the edge of the center partition since its surface is most center frame, and for the second shot I used the center display column. As always I've researched similar shots in the database (wide angle cabin etc.) for the sake of reference.

Oh, have something to deal with the noise issue... still not able to maximize results with NeatImage, but since yesterday I've started experimenting with edge sharpening and I've found the same technique can be reversed to apply selective softening... so not to concerned about that. Just curious for future refence on "level" issues because I guess I'm not getting it.

Thanks for taking the time and for your feedback Steven.

dlowwa · Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:43 pm

I think you fixed the main issues with the first, which were the color and darkness. The noise and level were minor issues, and I actually think the level was better with the first...

The level looks fine for the second, but it is really noisy, something you would need to fix before submitting.

zbot69 · Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 11):

I think you fixed the main issues with the first, which were the color and darkness. The noise and level were minor issues, and I actually think the level was better with the first...

The level looks fine for the second, but it is really noisy, something you would need to fix before submitting.

Hey Dana,

Thanks for getting back so fast! All points duly noted and I'll work on them tomorrow after the nuttiness subsides

Not that I foresee running around airplane cabins and pissing off cabin crew much in the future mind you, but for reference sake are there any pointers on criteria for leveling cabin shots? I was too preoccupied with getting my exposure right and trying to get the shots once it became clear shooting photos on Korean Air is tantemount to trespassing on a military airbase... I only realized when I was looking at the RAW files that there were precious few vertical-horizontal points to use as reference point.

And finally... on the 380 climbing shot... found the Edge Sharpening a very superior technique for applying sharpening without adding noise and will start using it from now on, just wondering if the sharpening was adequate as it applied to your earlier comments.

Thanks again for taking the time and for giving it your all very day man!

Best wishes!

Martin

dlowwa · Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 12):
Not that I foresee running around airplane cabins and pissing off cabin crew much in the future mind you, but for reference sake are there any pointers on criteria for leveling cabin shots?

Always use the strongest vertical reference in the middle of the frame, like you did with the second 380 shot you posted. Not a 100% solution, but it will usually be your safest/best bet.

zbot69 · Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:36 pm

Actually had a second to follow-up on the recommendations and attempt an initial application for the last photo. Followed up Steven's suggestion about uploading at a smaller file size and applied a touch of softening to the noise. Btw... the wall covering along the stairs is also some kind of texture matching the deck covering, that's not going to turn out 100% smooth I don't think:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...13008008.0171dsc_3083_1024x683.jpg

Thanks again for all the feedback and pointers and assistance. Got quite a bit done today. I'll follow up on the rest tomorrow hopefully.

Cheers!

dlowwa · Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:44 pm

Looks better. It 'feels' like it needs a touch of cw rotation, but as we have noted, that can be hard to determine.

zbot69 · Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:40 pm

Greetings again!

Okay, had a chance to go over the cabin files. Adjusted rotation on both, leveled the cabin shot off the rightside center cabin partition edge:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/s1313068403.4784dsc_3010cwl.jpg

Leveled the 'shop' on the left edge of the center display column center frame. I think there's some optical illusion effect. At 15% it looks perfectly level, at 25% still okay, at 100% looks like it could use a tweak of ccw. The 'noise' along the stairs is some pattern matching the floor covering. The edit yesterday was excessively destructive, so I redid it with my newfound Edge Sharpening/Softening skillz. I'm more wondering about the shadow area on the ceiling above the center display. Uploaded a 1200x800 and 1024x683 for comparison's sake. Might try playing around with the noise thing again some more if it's still excessive.

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/a1313068951.9405dsc_3083cwl.jpg

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/k1313069723.0509dsc_3083cws.jpg

Thanks again and cheers as always! Learned a lot this week. Hope it sticks

flight · Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:25 pm

Looks better, then the other. I think it still might need a touch of CW rotation.

Steven.

zbot69 · Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting flight (Reply 17):
I think it still might need a touch of CW rotation.

Hey Steven,

Thanks for getting back. Yeah, I compared the two... the center panel is vertically aligned on this. The lens distortion effect from the wide angle creates a lot of false cues. I'm sticking to the center partition side and the flight attendant for my orientation:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/z1313090042.4851dsc_3010cws.jpg

I applied cw rotation to the shop display and reduced the file size to 1024x683:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...dy/w1313091141.8528dsc_3083cws.jpg

Thanks again for the feedback!

zbot69 · Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:03 am

Hey, apologies for the reposting... kind of learning as I go here. Should have been reading up on Photoshop when I first started submitting to A.net, kind of playing catch-up now. I redid this with a noise technique called Channel Masking, reducing noise selectively from A and B Channels. Looks a lot more balanced actually:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...eady/m1313098417.8813dsc_3083e.jpg

It sounds complicated, it's actually very straight forward and easy to learn for anyone interested. Found the tutorial here:

http://tricks.onigo.net/guides/2005/.../noise-reduction-step-by-step.html

Hope that's of use to somone.

Thanks again and cheers!

dlowwa · Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:01 am

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 19):
I redid this with a noise technique called Channel Masking, reducing noise selectively from A and B Channels. Looks a lot more balanced actually:

Still quite noisy, unfortunately.

zbot69 · Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:58 am

Howdy!

Okay, tackled it with a combination of the techniques I've recently acquired, threw some heavy noise algorithms at it:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...z1313190153.5591dsc_2925levls3.jpg

Hope that makes the grade. The wall covering above the stairs is some kind of textured fabric that matches the floor and steps. Similar to the legrests/backboards with these seats:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerry Pang

I don't upload that much, all I can do to understand the standards A.net is applying is compare to what I can find in the DB as a reference.

Hope that helps.

Thanks again for taking the time!

dlowwa · Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:04 am

Still a bit noisy and soft, and the image you linked is a good choice, because it has less noise than yours but is sharper.

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 21):
The wall covering above the stairs is some kind of textured fabric that matches the floor and steps. Similar to the legrests/backboards with these seats:

You've mentioned that several times, but first, that's the not the only place noise is visible, and second, it is noise, not pattern/texture, as you can tell by the blotchy colors. If it were only the fabric that made it look grainy, then the color would be uniform, as in the image you linked.

zbot69 · Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 22):
You've mentioned that several times, but first, that's the not the only place noise is visible, and second, it is noise, not pattern/texture, as you can tell by the blotchy colors. If it were only the fabric that made it look grainy, then the color would be uniform, as in the image you linked.

Heya Dana!

Yeah, one of the problems I've been having is trying to maintain the sharpness as the noise reduction increases. I have a better grasp of the Photoshop tools... of course there are so many options still trying to figure out how to put them to use properly.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay... I'm ready if you are.... one more time.... hahaha....

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...y/v1313247176.9927dsc_3083tops.jpg

Alright man. Thanks as always for your patience. I learned more Photoshop in the last week than I have in the last 2 years. And that's no joke.

Have a great weekend!

dlowwa · Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 23):
I'm ready if you are.... one more time....

Best one so far. I don't think the noise is as big an issue in this one, though it is a bit soft.

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 23):
Alright man. Thanks as always for your patience. I learned more Photoshop in the last week than I have in the last 2 years. And that's no joke.

No worries, and I had just as sharp a learning curve when I started uploading; not only was I having to learn the 'a.net way', but I was also transitioning from film to digital. Just like you, there was a lot of learning going on for a few months.

zbot69 · Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:25 am

Hey Dana!

Thanks for the feedback! I finally found a tutorial that explains editing steps in a clear and concise manner without skipping steps. That definitely helped. For this edit added 20% sharpening with Edge Sharpening:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b.../g1313288241.8485dsc_3083tops2.jpg

Apologies for removing the previous edit prematurely. This file has gone through 20 revisions, in the last few days, I'm losing track.

Cheers and have a great weekend!

dlowwa · Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:21 am

Quoting zbot69 (Reply 25):
For this edit added 20% sharpening with Edge Sharpening:

Would like to have had the previous version to compare, but this one is over-sharpened.

zbot69 · Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:37 am

Quoting dlowwa (Reply 26):
Would like to have had the previous version to compare, but this one is over-sharpened.

Had a copy in the recycle bin. I can't keep track of these anymore, so I posted it here. Hope the link works:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3838304...6041449060/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The oversharp:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b.../g1313288241.8485dsc_3083tops2.jpg

Restarted from the original and applied a bit less sharpening, so the values on the original were around 100% in the mask, the oversharp @ about 120%, and this one around 107%:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b.../a1313320688.3935dsc_3083tops5.jpg

Hope that helps!

Cheers!

dlowwa · Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:46 pm

If I had to choose, it would be the first one (from the recycle bin). Seems to be slightly better noise control in that one. Second one is definitely the worst of the three.

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