Well this has me scratching my head and a tad insulted. I got these rejections this morning all with the same personal message "unrealistic approach angle" with level rejections.
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...e=u1312253087.7103n773axjfknik.jpg
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...e=k1312252788.1571n315aajfknik.jpg
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...e=j1312252624.4376vt-altjfknik.jpg
https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...e=j1312251744.5206n796anjfknik.jpg
This is basically saying I rotated the pics to give the illusion of a different approach. After uploading here for over 5 years and not engaging in things like cloning etc I doubt I would start now and Antonis who was shooting with me can attest to the fact these are not rotated as he shot with me on this morning.
Now I can understand these sort of shots are not common at JFK since it's a morning spot many don't use and it's only good for a couple of months out of the year. Still these are not rotated and I will appeal though I will seek some screeners opinions and will probably email the raw .NEFs which will prove these are not rotated.
I would love some input here guys.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
Jet airliners in landing configuration normally fly nose up.
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter): I would love some input here guys. |
| Quoting NIKV69 (Thread starter): "unrealistic approach angle" with level rejections. |
I have to say I agree with the screener(s). I don't think anyone is accusing you of rotating the photos to make it look like they are in a very steep approach, but they do look like they need some CCW rotation. We have a similar spot to this at my local airport and aircraft (these types anyway) aren't normally nose down at this part of the approach. They just need a bit of CCW to level them. Other than that, they're great shots.
Darren
EDIT: Spelling
[Edited 2011-08-10 06:13:40]
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- Silver1SWA
- Posts: 4881
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RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting viv (Reply 1): Jet airliners in landing configuration normally fly nose up. |
And these probably are flying nose up, but due to the angle of the photographer you can't tell.
I dont know, Nick. This is a tough one. I see this kind of angle all the time and it looks natural to me. But it doesn't translate well to photos I guess. I think rotating so they appear level or nose up would look unnatural. I would definitely fix #3 though...that one looks extreme.
[Edited 2011-08-10 06:27:48]
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
Nick, no one is accusing you of rotating the images to make things unrealistic; rather, you should have rotated them a bit to make them look more realistic. No need to get defensive, this should be pretty easy to fix with some ccw rotation as mentioned above.
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
Looks normal for this viewpoint. Not my favorite angle, but that's what you see when you position yourself close to the approach path. Rotating them on purpose would make them look strange. I didn't know this has become a rejection reason too. Which category does it fall under?
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting IL76 (Reply 5): Which category does it fall under? |
Level
| Quoting IL76 (Reply 5): Looks normal for this viewpoint. Not my favorite angle, but that's what you see when you position yourself close to the approach path. Rotating them on purpose would make them look strange. I didn't know this has become a rejection reason too |
Really why would I rotate a pic that is exactly appearing to me when I shot it when the horizon was level?
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
I have to agree with Nik here (for once). Those look like quite normal finals to me, given the angle at which they were shot. Plus I could show you a whole lot of shots where aircraft are coming in nose-down - and I ain't talking CRJs or F50s.
The only one I find to look unrealistic is the Air India. I do think this needs rotation.
Karl
The only one I find to look unrealistic is the Air India. I do think this needs rotation.
Karl
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- stevemchey
- Posts: 339
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RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
I would agree with Nik, too. It's all about perspective and just because you don't have a reference point on the ground, doesn't mean the angle is unnatural. In fact, if he were to rotate the images to make them appear "more real", you could tell.
I just went through recently accepted images and found these. I feel OK posting them, because I think they are nice shots and am by no means suggesting they shouldn't have been accepted. They were correctly accepted, and so should have been Nik's shots.
[Edited 2011-08-10 11:01:13]
I just went through recently accepted images and found these. I feel OK posting them, because I think they are nice shots and am by no means suggesting they shouldn't have been accepted. They were correctly accepted, and so should have been Nik's shots.
 Photo © Cornelius Saayman |  Photo © Nicholas Vollaro |
[Edited 2011-08-10 11:01:13]
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
Thanks Steve the TAM is mine and taking from the same day. It had passed me a bit more than the rest. I will put a little CCW on the others but not enough to alter the way the shot looked.
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
So basically you are asked to make your photos unlevel to make them look level. (??) These look normal approach shots and the aircraft appear nose down as you are close to the approach path and the aircraft are flying away from you.
Not always.
If these were rotated to look nose up they would look bizarre.
| Quoting viv (Reply 1): Jet airliners in landing configuration normally fly nose up. |
Not always.
If these were rotated to look nose up they would look bizarre.
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting derekf (Reply 10): If these were rotated to look nose up they would look bizarre. |
Yes, that would be silly which is why that is not what is being requested. All that is being requested is that some rotation be applied so the angle is less acute.
When viewed from a 3/4 angle from behind, of course the aircraft will appear to have a nose-down angle. Some of Nick's shots simply have the angle too acute, and some which were shot directly side-on (the AA for example) have a nose-down angle when they should obviously be level or slightly raised. From personal experience, as opposed to, say, a CRJ, I've never seen a 777 with a nose-down approach.
In the end Nick, if you are unsatisfied with the screening results you are always free to use the appeal function.
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 11): All that is being requested is that some rotation be applied so the angle is less acute |
Aside from the AI, I think it's a little much to ask Nik to rotate what clearly (in my mind) doesn't require rotation.
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 11): I've never seen a 777 with a nose-down approach |
You have now....
Photo © Karl Nixon
Karl
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting JakTrax (Reply 12): Aside from the AI, I think it's a little much to ask Nik to rotate what clearly (in my mind) doesn't require rotation. |
I'm glad you are able to express your opinion clearly Karl.
| Quoting JakTrax (Reply 12): You have now.... |
Thank you for so eloquently pointing that out, and it might have actually been relevant to the discussion had the images been of the same angle. Alas, they are not. In your image the 777 has passed the 90-degree side-on view, and thus has a slight downward angle - totally normal. Nick's is almost directly side-on, yet has more downward slope than yours.
[Edited 2011-08-10 15:40:52]
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 13): I'm glad you are able to express your opinion clearly Karl |
That wasn't an attempt to be disrespectful. In my mind, whether they would look or feel better with rotation, I maintain that three look passable to me.
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 13): 777 has passed the 90-degree side-on view, and thus has a slight downward angle |
Dana, I'm not going to be funny about this but I could null your 'point' quite quickly by showing you the previous frame in the sequence. At 90 degrees side-on, that UA Triple was still slightly nose-down. Your point was condescending to anyone who has such images of large aircraft; almost suggesting that large aircraft don't ever make nose-down approaches.
It was once said that the team sincerely looks for reasons to accept a shot, not reject it. On this occasion no-one can respectfully reserve the right to say with any certainty that these aircraft were not shot level. With this in mind, should the benefit of the doubt not be given?
I agree that the AI looks unnatural, and I'd say it's fairly likely that that particular one is unlevel. But like I say, I think it's a harsh decision with reference to the others.
Karl
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 13): I'm glad you are able to express your opinion clearly Karl. |
Come on guys I didn't post this to become a rant thread. I may have to call a group hug.
| Quoting dlowwa (Reply 13): Alas, they are not. In your image the 777 has passed the 90-degree side-on view, and thus has a slight downward angle - totally normal. Nick's is almost directly side-on, yet has more downward slope than yours. |
Almost but also much closer and almost underneath do the angle will be different. I will give these some CCWR but it will be very slight as to keep the real look of what I saw when I shot it.
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- Plainplane
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RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
From my perspective all of the shots look fine to me, as the others mentioned little rotation might help balance the AI a little better.
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- tonyosborne
- Posts: 50
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RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
| Quoting tonyosborne (Reply 17): Clearly Viv hasn't seen any Russian aircraft arrive at his local airport. |
I have. The An-12 in particular comes in very nose down, sometimes touching down on the nosewheels first - like this:
Photo © Vivion Mulcahy
I referred to jet airliners (not including turboprops).
[Edited 2011-08-11 12:01:01]
[Edited 2011-08-11 12:05:16]
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
To illustrate my point about the above UA 777 being nose-down, here are some shots from the same spot. In these images, the aircraft retain a nose-up attitude, despite two being further down the runway than the 777.
View Large View Medium
Photo © Karl Nixon
Large aircraft do come in nose-down sometimes. These images prove it beyond doubt.
***EDIT***
Coincidently, I have just received the following image via email, taken at one of my locals today.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzQdndAVGN...UU/s1600/9A-CDA_BHX_2011.08.11.jpg
I rest my case!
Karl
[Edited 2011-08-11 14:11:47]
 Photo © Karl Nixon |  Photo © Karl Nixon |
Photo © Karl Nixon
Large aircraft do come in nose-down sometimes. These images prove it beyond doubt.
***EDIT***
Coincidently, I have just received the following image via email, taken at one of my locals today.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzQdndAVGN...UU/s1600/9A-CDA_BHX_2011.08.11.jpg
I rest my case!
Karl
[Edited 2011-08-11 14:11:47]
RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
A few to prove that many airliners approach with a very level attitude.
View Large View Medium
Photo © Karl Nixon
The 757 and 777 seem to have most pronounced nose-dwon attitudes; Airbus types seem to fly a lot more nose-up.
 Photo © Alexander Arildsson |  Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages |
 Photo © Phil Debski |  Photo © Weimeng |
 Photo © Marc Riedel |  Photo © Andreas Loenner |
 Photo © Jose Miguel Bernases |  Photo © Bernhard Bauske |
Photo © Karl Nixon
The 757 and 777 seem to have most pronounced nose-dwon attitudes; Airbus types seem to fly a lot more nose-up.
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- Silver1SWA
- Posts: 4881
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RE: Unrealistic Approach Angle?
Hmmm...Nick's shots are no worse than the Icelandair shot in the post above. 
By the way, as aircraft come in on short final, pitch is constantly changing. I see a lot of airliners as they pass the threshold pitch down momentarily and then back up. The approach is very dynamic, not static. So it can just come down to timing whether a plane appears nose up or nose down.
[Edited 2011-08-11 15:32:08]
By the way, as aircraft come in on short final, pitch is constantly changing. I see a lot of airliners as they pass the threshold pitch down momentarily and then back up. The approach is very dynamic, not static. So it can just come down to timing whether a plane appears nose up or nose down.
[Edited 2011-08-11 15:32:08]
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