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JakTrax
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Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:45 pm

All,

I'm not going to beat about the bush here. There is talk about the appeals function effectively being a 're-screening system', by which images rejected for one thing are re-evaluated and then rejected for something totally different; something 'apparently' overlooked when screened the first time.

This was done for level, and subsequently appealed:

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...4.8769ph-bxa_man_101013_kn_313.jpg

Level was removed but 'category' was added (something the original screener kindly changed for me to reflect the special scheme), along with colour (magenta cast). Firstly, if the original screener checked 'colourful/special' on my behalf, surely the appeal can't come back citing 'category'? And if so, is it really too much trouble to alter it, as the original screener did? Secondly, isn't a very early morning shot supposed to have a magenta hue? The sky that morning was very red (as it sometimes is, quite naturally), and there are other images in the database taken on the same morning, from the same spot, that display a similar red hue.

I'm not suggesting any favouritism but it's plainly obvious why that notion continuously gathers momentum amongst photographers. Unfortunately the site fuels such theories when it should be doing its best to quash them.

Karl
 
DiScPx
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:06 pm

Hi Karl,

thanks for starting this topic as I am also affected by this as you already know. Refer to my thread "Post Screening - Editing (Sky Banding)" in which you also left a comment.

I am not trying to stir up the pot here, since I am quite a rookie with only 9 pics online, but I really would hope for some screeners to step forward and to come to a conclusive verdict, or at least a way forward.

Regards and C'ya tomorrow,
Dick
 
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johnr
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:07 am

This issue really is becoming a joke. I appealed a dark and over sharpened rejection simply because they were ridiculous. Rejected on appeal but dark and over sharpened now removed but guess what? the shot is now not level!! I think the screeners really need to lift their game.
 
epten
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:44 am

Screening is done by people. People sometimes make mistakes, but that's normal and expected. I wouldn't take rejections personally.
 
dazbo5
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:56 am

Quoting epten (Reply 3):
Screening is done by people. People sometimes make mistakes, but that's normal and expected. I wouldn't take rejections personally.

We all agree on that Epten, but this is more than the odd mistake, it's becoming commonplace. Photos are being rejected for the most obvious reason (although often wrongly, hence appealing) leaving those less apparent out for further rejection on appeal, or a change of mind for the actual rejection reason. Are photos not being screened properly to begin with? Several of my recent appeals for example have been subject to this problem as well as many people posting questions here. All we are asking is ALL rejection reasons are noted at first screening instead of having to deal with rejections for totally different reasons post appeal. This will save screener time and reduce some of the negativity currently surrounding the screening here. It surely can't be that difficult?

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
sausten
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:31 am

I guess we are left with only one option in cases like this... wait a few weeks, re upload the shot and take your chances again with the kind of screener you get. I'm sure we all have plenty of shots in the DB that were unacceptable to some screeners, but made it through a few months later.... or maybe that's just me  
Quoting JakTrax (Thread starter):
the original screener kindly changed for me to reflect the special scheme

Obviously there are screeners prepared to take the two seconds extra to fix 'category' omissions, and there are those who are not.

I know the reasons why it's not possible, but it makes me really want to know who screens each shot. I guess we're not ready for that level of accountability yet.

By the way, nice shot Karl... love that early morning light!

Steve
 
EGCC777LR
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:21 am

Hi Karl,

So as we are not in bush beating mode, what would you like to see done?

You are a long term contributor to the site with over 2000 pictures on the DB, having just checked the screening log, you have a considerably above average acceptance rate which shows only a handful of rejections in the last 100 shots in your log. So you are obviously a very capable and committed contributor, photographer and editor.

Having been an Manchester regular for many years, I'm sure we have probably met at some point, so I understand very well the KLM that you have mentioned here. I know from regular conversations with fellow crew and fellow photographers that you are pretty vocal in your views, and there is nothing wrong with that.

However, it does seems that you contradict yourself at times, there have been several discussions where you have called into question images that have been accepted that you believe to be 'below' standard and that standards are slipping, but a couple of threads later you say the reverse, which way do you feel?

Quoting JakTrax (Thread starter):
I'm not suggesting any favouritism but it's plainly obvious why that notion continuously gathers momentum amongst photographers

Threads like this go along way to fueling that notion  
Quoting johnr (Reply 2):
I think the screeners really need to lift their game

I think you need to try a little less coffee  
Quoting epten (Reply 3):
Screening is done by people. People sometimes make mistakes

Thats a certainty, and it will never change

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 4):
All we are asking is ALL rejection reasons are noted at first screening

I will explain in a moment why that is not possible and never will be...

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 4):
It surely can't be that difficult

I can assure you it's not easy, and we all take pride in trying to do the best we can for the betterment of the wider community

So that's a few of the comments answered, let me now help you to fully understand the situation...

At last count there are 35 Screeners on the team, so this means....

35 different sets of eyes, forget everything else, I'm 100% certain that we don't all have perfectly colour balanced 20/20 vision
35 different monitors at differing sizes and pixel resolutions
35 different calibrations I would imagine, with the best will in the world there is now way they can all be exactly the same as they will vary in brand and type, I'm sure they are all very close, but already you can see where this is going...
35 different lighting conditions in which we screen, some will be tungsten, some halogen, some in daylight which changes every minute of every day
35 different personal viewpoints, we are all pretty good photographers but this is an art form, so it's totally illogical to think we will see every shot the same, I often look at comments from fellow screeners and don't necessarily agree with them, after all we as a team Screen to a set of guidelines, does every Premier League referee interpret every decision in a football match the same way? No, and they have rules and we have guidelines...
And finally 35 different personalities, I guess the best way to explain that is that some of us are photographers whose subject happens to be aviation, some of us are more database and recording minded and that means that we all put slightly differing views of the stringency of the enforcement of some of the rejection categories, is that a bad thing? I don't know... I didn't make the rules, I'm just saying that is a human dynamic and I never see it altering

So all that said...my question still stands, What would like to see done?

Since it is easy for everyone to take a poke at the team of volunteers which you are more than welcome to do if you feel the need arises, but on the back of that you need to have a point, suggest an answer... if there is something that you feel we can do better then suggest it, I guarantee it will be discussed by the team, maybe we will agree, maybe not.... I cant say

And before any of you suggest it, don't reply with 'be more consistent' If you have read any of the above, you will realise that after working a 60 hour week and then giving some of my free time to help get your images uploaded and the queue down you feel in some way that we have failed you then I am sorry, but I know that we all give our best to help you all enjoy the site and get some exposure for your work, we as a team can do no more

For the record Karl, I think you were fortunate to have the level rejction overturned, 05R is pretty flat in that spot from memory, 0.3 CCW looks to fix it in my very humble opinion   And that's all it is!

I think you were unlucky with the red cast, it's slight and I know what you mean about the time of day, on the category issue, I guess you just made a mistake which given your experience is surprising, but it does go to prove it happens to the best of us...

Best Wishes
Jason
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acontador
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:55 am

Hi Guys,

Jason pretty much nailed it with his reply, so I'll just add a few more comments.

Quoting DiScPx (Reply 1):
I really would hope for some screeners to step forward


Sure, why not  
Quoting sausten (Reply 5):
wait a few weeks, re upload the shot and take your chances again with the kind of screener you get.


That's for sure not a very good idea. You may be lucky and we may not pick this up, but we do have all the tools to do it, and you are risking not only a Reupload rejection, but also your uploading priviledges being revoked, and all for just not improving your edit as suggested by the screener?

Quoting sausten (Reply 5):
it makes me really want to know who screens each shot


Exactly why would you like to know that? Does it change in any way the content of the rejection? What more "accountability" do you want from us than this kind of threads/forum, and the appeal process? I would very much like you to expand on this point, maybe there is something that I am missing here.

Quoting JakTrax (Thread starter):
Secondly, isn't a very early morning shot supposed to have a magenta hue?


IMHO that hue is produced by your camera/postprocessing. I am also a sunrise/sunset shooter, and in the morning only very early (earlier than your shot) you would get this kind of red light. On your shot the sun was already clearly above the horizon, then you can expect more yellow light. And that runway surely doesn't look level...but hey, that's what appeals are for  

Now, you see that as Jason said, even within the team we sometimes have different opinions, and that's a good and healthy thing, it keeps us all alert in that we have to be able to defend our opinion. Afterwards, the headscreeners have the final say.

Cheers,
Andrés
Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
 
dazbo5
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:13 pm

Thanks Jason,

You've pretty much covered the exact reasons we keep banging on about screening inconsistency and the reasons for it. It's about time Demand Media worked towards removing some of those to only leave the human element. We all accept mistakes happen, there's no getting away from it, but you need the tools for the job in order to make comparable and consistent decisions.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
JakTrax
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 6):
At last count there are 35 Screeners on the team, so this means....

35 different sets of eyes, forget everything else, I'm 100% certain that we don't all have perfectly colour balanced 20/20 vision
35 different monitors at differing sizes and pixel resolutions
35 different calibrations I would imagine, with the best will in the world there is now way they can all be exactly the same as they will vary in brand and type, I'm sure they are all very close, but already you can see where this is going...
35 different lighting conditions in which we screen, some will be tungsten, some halogen, some in daylight which changes every minute of every day
35 different personal viewpoints, we are all pretty good photographers but this is an art form, so it's totally illogical to think we will see every shot the same, I often look at comments from fellow screeners and don't necessarily agree with them, after all we as a team Screen to a set of guidelines, does every Premier League referee interpret every decision in a football match the same way? No, and they have rules and we have guidelines...
And finally 35 different personalities, I guess the best way to explain that is that some of us are photographers whose subject happens to be aviation, some of us are more database and recording minded and that means that we all put slightly differing views of the stringency of the enforcement of some of the rejection categories, is that a bad thing? I don't know... I didn't make the rules, I'm just saying that is a human dynamic and I never see it altering

All the more reason therefore to offer benefit of doubt.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 6):
However, it does seems that you contradict yourself at times, there have been several discussions where you have called into question images that have been accepted that you believe to be 'below' standard and that standards are slipping, but a couple of threads later you say the reverse, which way do you feel?

Nowhere have I contradicted myself. Poor images have recently been added to the database, while much better images have been rejected for something trivial. That equates to inconsistent screening, and is nothing to do with the standards or demands of the criteria. I have pointed out a few total howlers to the quality team but nothing seems to get done. Blurry images are not subjective - neither are ones riddled with heat-haze - but both have appeared in the database lately. This isn't interpretation by 35 sets of eyes - this is erroneous screening.

Here's another done just now for 'magenta cast':

https://www.airliners.net/procphotos/...9.7333ln-rml_man_020213_kn_344.jpg

Taken at a similar time to the above KLM image. One would expect the sky to be a little red. Have some screeners never seen the different colours an early morning sky can produce? Oh, and 'over-exposed' to boot, which it isn't.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 6):
For the record Karl, I think you were fortunate to have the level rejction overturned, 05R is pretty flat in that spot from memory, 0.3 CCW looks to fix it in my very humble opinion And that's all it is!

It's not about the runway being flat - it's about the angle and elevation. I spend up to seven days a week out at the airport so am familiar with all the locations. Add to that heavy experience in technical drawing and calculations and I'd sure hope I'd know what to look for.

Quoting acontador (Reply 7):
but also your uploading priviledges

I would have thought it would also be the site's privilege to host the images of the world's best aviation photographers. It's a reciprocal thing.

Quoting acontador (Reply 7):
IMHO that hue is produced by your camera/postprocessing. I am also a sunrise/sunset shooter, and in the morning only very early (earlier than your shot) you would get this kind of red light. On your shot the sun was already clearly above the horizon, then you can expect more yellow light. And that runway surely doesn't look level...but hey, that's what appeals are for

Two different opinions about the red there. Let's bear in mind though that the only person present when the image was taken was me. The sky can often be red at that time (depends on several atmospheric factors), and the sun clearly had only just risen (hence the shadow). You ought to have seen how much red was taken out to get it to where it is now! As for level, see my comment above. My perception of angles tends to be excellent, due to a background (albeit a while ago) in technical design and geometry. Here are a couple more accepted from the same day:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Nixon
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Nixon



As you can see, the TK shares the same runway slope as the KL; but in the BA shot the runway is level. With the TK one must look at the tree-line and embankment in the background, which in fact actually slope the opposite way to the runway.

Karl
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:56 pm

FYI Karl, I agree with the color rejection on the first shot. Level looks fine.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
Here's another done just now for 'magenta cast':

Borderline in my opinion. Not overexposed, though.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
Here are a couple more accepted from the same day:

Color cast is not as strong on these two. Not a good comparison, color-wise, in my opinion.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
JakTrax
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:39 pm

Vik, the two above were to better explain how and why I levelled as I did. Regarding the SAS MDS-80, that colour scheme is terrible for catching red light. A hue is often down to incorrect colour temperature in camera but light behaves differently depending on several atmospheric and circumstantial factors. Sunrise light is typically yellow and sunset red but often this can operate in reverse.

I'm not disputing the magenta hue in the KL shot; I'm simply saying that it is an accurate representation of the light that morning, once the camera factor had been removed (I think Jason sees and agrees with my point here). The original was painfully red. If it's too red for here, I'll redo it, but the original screener clearly didn't think the red hue was an issue.

Karl
 
EGCC777LR
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:48 pm

So just to be clear.... no actual answer to my question then?

We know the issues, most of them are human and you either haven't got an answer or you don't want to share it....

Quoting sausten (Reply 5):
I'm sure we all have plenty of shots in the DB that were unacceptable to some screeners, but made it through a few months later

Having read my post Steve I hope you see why this happens...

Quoting sausten (Reply 5):
I know the reasons why it's not possible, but it makes me really want to know who screens each shot. I guess we're not ready for that level of accountability yet.

Prior to becoming part of the team, I thought this would be good too, but then when I was asked to come on board and help, I looked through the screening log at my own history with the viewpoint that maybe one or two screeners were against me and constantly rejected my shots, the reality of it was that both my rejections and acceptances were spread pretty equally across everyone, there was no pattern, no favouritism and no vendetta  

Now all I could see happening if that info was available is that guys would email the Screener arguing this that and the other, the two would still not agree in most cases and more time would be wasted and we would spend more of our free time answering emails and even less screening, outcome... even longer queue and upload time, and I don't see how that helps anything

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 8):
It's about time Demand Media worked towards removing some of those to only leave the human element

What do you want them to do Darren? Again, just say what you are looking for if you think there is a solution. The human element is still the overriding factor in this and accounts for probably 75% of all these discussions, I certainly don't want them 'operating' on me  
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 8):
but you need the tools for the job in order to make comparable and consistent decisions.

So I guess you are saying updated interface and ship everyone in the team globally a new and identical screen? Well last time I looked things like that all cost money, I notice you, Karl and everyone else here are not First Class members, thats probably true of the majority of contributors to this site, and thats just fine, but if no one wants to pay where does the money come from? I'm sure DM are a successful outfit, and all the ones I know make money out things, the team is volunteers and the majority of users don't want to pay, tell me you can see the issue here...

In reality, sites like this are fairly expensive to run I would imagine, much goes on behind the scenes, do any of you run and administer your own websites? I'd be interested to know and see them if you do, but I know why I am here, and I know why you are all here too, this is the premier website globally to expose your photography to the world and its largely free to the end user, I like that, I think it's pretty cool and it's why I give some of my free time to help us all promote our work, after all this is meant to be fun.... right?

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
All the more reason therefore to offer benefit of doubt

I'm with that, I see a few that I would have rejected that make it through... but I see it and move on, who cares, after all it's only a picture of a plane on a website, I love what I do, but it's not life or death is it?

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
Nowhere have I contradicted myself

You say you are for benefit of the doubt, a few weeks ago you emailed us about a couple of images that you felt weren't level, now you are complaining about this level rejection.... #contradiction  
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 10):
FYI Karl, I agree with the color rejection on the first shot. Level looks fine.

Human

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 10):
Borderline in my opinion. Not overexposed, though.

Human

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 10):
Color cast is not as strong on these two. Not a good comparison, color-wise, in my opinion.

Human and opinion... 
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
I would have thought it would also be the site's privilege to host the images of the world's best aviation photographers. It's a reciprocal thing

  

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 9):
My perception of angles tends to be excellent, due to a background (albeit a while ago) in technical design and geometry

And that's great.... doesn't mean to say you don't get one wrong once in a while... I've been a Professional Golfer for over 20 years, I still hit plenty of s*%t shots.... even though I know exactly how to avoid them  
Quoting JakTrax (Reply 11):
I'm not disputing the magenta hue in the KL shot; I'm simply saying that it is an accurate representation of the light that morning

We discussed this recently as a team, it was hard to get a resolution, I'm fine with it and I would agree that it probably looked just like that, in Sydney we have have bush fires for the last week or so, the colour of the sky in the late evening is so red it's not funny, if I were to upload shots they would get colour rejections for sure, but that is exactly what the light is. So do want us to accept all colour casts? Is that what you are saying, if not, where do we draw the line and who says what you did or did't see... it's a no win situation

I'll finish with the last point that I started with in this post and the previous post. What is your solution?

We all know the human element accounts for a good majority of it and I think the diversity of the teams views is good for us all in the long run, if anybody has an answer to my question then feel free to air your views, otherwise I have wasted an hour last night and 45 mins this morning of my time.... time I would have preferred to have spent screening or editing my own work  

Onwards...
Jason
Flown On B704,722,732/3/4/7/8/9,744,752,762/3/4,772,77W,A319,A320,A321,A330,A388,L1011,F-50,BAE146,CRJ100, Dash-8. Left
 
dazbo5
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):
What do you want them to do Darren? Again, just say what you are looking for if you think there is a solution. The human element is still the overriding factor in this and accounts for probably 75% of all these discussions, I certainly don't want them 'operating' on me

Calibrated monitors for the screening team might help? It was done previously before DM took over. I know the site and number of screeners was smaller back then, but at least screeners were working from the same screens. It's already been established that part of the issues we see are due to the different screens everyone uses. You can't possibly have consistency when everyone uses different screens and calibrations. Karl's example with colour casts is a case in point. His photo will have slightly different hues on every screen, it's no wonder some say it's within limits and some don't. It's the same with contrast and noise.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):
Well last time I looked things like that all cost money, I notice you, Karl and everyone else here are not First Class members,

I was previously, not any longer.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):
do any of you run and administer your own websites?

Not as a site owner, but yes, as a volunteer like you guys albeit on a much smaller scale. I'm fully aware of some of the issues. A successful team need the correct tools for the job in order to perform their role.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):

You say you are for benefit of the doubt, a few weeks ago you emailed us about a couple of images that you felt weren't level, now you are complaining about this level rejection.... #contradiction

I wouldn't say that's a contradiction. Having seen the photos Karl refers too, there's the benefit of the doubt, then there's plain unlevel.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
JakTrax
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):
So just to be clear.... no actual answer to my question then?

We know the issues, most of them are human and you either haven't got an answer or you don't want to share it....

With all due respect, this is how the screening team behaved when we asked sensible questions the last time this debate kicked off. All we got was silence. What we would like to see happen is blurry images being rejected; in fact any image which clearly isn't up-to-scratch. I understand that screening is voluntary but the job has to come with a certain level of responsibility and diligence. We rely on screeners to have a fair understanding of what makes a good image and what makes a bad one - a screener doing a proper, diligent job shouldn't be overlooking such obvious flaws as blur and clearly unlevel buildings.... or would you disagree?

Centre, colour, contrast...... they're all very subjective and screener opinions may vary; but major, photo-killing faults should always be picked up, without fail. I've pointed a few howlers out to the quality team but have never heard any feedback. The images in question all remain in the database, which isn't setting a good example in my opinion. It's little use having a quality team if that team isn't effective in its duty to deter poor images.

I used to upload quite passionately but lately I upload a couple here and there when I am bored. The site's loss of anyone's images is something not to be encouraged.
 
JakTrax
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't say that's a contradiction. Having seen the photos Karl refers too, there's the benefit of the doubt, then there's plain unlevel.

Precisely my point. I complained about the unlevel images a few weeks ago because every background vertical suggested that they needed rotation (and quite a bit too). My KL image has no real references, and as demonstrated there are disagreements as to whether it is level or not. The heads removed 'level', so clearly they thought it was good. Vik sees no level issue, and neither do I. Therefore, the benefit of the doubt is the sensible option. If you got to see any of the images I complained about, I'm sure you'd agree that there was no doubt that they needed correcting.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:20 pm

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 14):
I've pointed a few howlers out to the quality team but have never heard any feedback. The images in question all remain in the database, which isn't setting a good example in my opinion.

Perhaps you should look a bit more closely. Action has indeed been taken on the images about which you have emailed.

As far as feedback - for each one, we've sent an email thanking you for bringing said image(s) to our attention. You won't hear more feedback than that, because they aren't your photos. Further discussion/action are between the screeners, database editors, and the individual photographers, and I believe it should stay that way.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
JakTrax
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Perhaps you should look a bit more closely. Action has indeed been taken on the images about which you have emailed.

If it has, I apologise. When I last looked, nothing had changed.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16):
As far as feedback - for each one, we've sent an email thanking you for bringing said image(s) to our attention. You won't hear more feedback than that, because they aren't your photos

Appreciate this, but the 'thank you' message is a little ambiguous - does the team agree with what I'm saying or does everyone think I've been too picky or unfair? I guess if the images get removed, my concerns have not been in vain. If, however, the team feels I have been too critical, I'd rather someone tell me.

I'd like to ask just one thing, and I'd appreciate an honest answer: should the images I expressed concerns about not have been rejected from the outset? Should any diligent screener have seen the flaws straight away, or at the very least sought a second opinion? Like I say, surely it's not unfair to expect you guys to judge our images as fairly and appropriately as possible?

If we can eliminate downright poor screening, we can make everyone's job more enjoyable and comfortable, no?

On a final note, I just want to say that if anyone found issues with any of my images, I'd much rather have those images linked here for all to see and discuss. Rather than be offended about one of my photos being dragged through the dirt I'd actually much prefer it that way - after all, if you post your images on a public database such as this, surely you are sanctioning open criticism as well as acclaim?

Karl
 
vikkyvik
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):

Appreciate this, but the 'thank you' message is a little ambiguous - does the team agree with what I'm saying or does everyone think I've been too picky or unfair? I guess if the images get removed, my concerns have not been in vain. If, however, the team feels I have been too critical, I'd rather someone tell me.

The message is intended to be ambiguous. The "thank you" message is simply that - thanks for bringing this to our attention. Chances are, we haven't even had a chance to discuss the image yet. We're all in different parts of the world, on different schedules, with different lives.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
I'd like to ask just one thing, and I'd appreciate an honest answer: should the images I expressed concerns about not have been rejected from the outset? Should any diligent screener have seen the flaws straight away, or at the very least sought a second opinion?

I can't get anymore honest than "maybe". There are reasons for that ambiguity, aside from differing screener opinions. Image rarity, image difficulty, newsworthiness, etc., all come into play.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 17):
On a final note, I just want to say that if anyone found issues with any of my images, I'd much rather have those images linked here for all to see and discuss. Rather than be offended about one of my photos being dragged through the dirt I'd actually much prefer it that way - after all, if you post your images on a public database such as this, surely you are sanctioning open criticism as well as acclaim?

You've said that before, and I think we all understand that. Nevertheless, I'm not going to link publicly to other people's photos that I or anyone else may find objectionable, or that are in discussion within the screening team.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
sausten
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:05 am

Quoting acontador (Reply 7):
That's for sure not a very good idea

I agree it’s not ideal, but what else is there? Your statement is based on the notion that the screener is always right and that all screeners agree on everything, when as Jason has already said, with the number of variables involved, that is not the case.

I always try to see the flaws in my shots from the screener’s perspective and take on board their feedback in order to ‘improve’ my edits but every now and again, when a something like this does happen, what else can you do, correct for an issue that isn’t there?

I have had shots rejected, to which I have attempted to fix the issue, which has lead to a second rejection, which has then prompted me to upload the original image again, which has then been accepted. I know the difference here is that in Karl's case he has appealed the rejection, however this sequence illustrates how the many variables play out in the screening process.

Quoting acontador (Reply 7):
Exactly why would you like to know that?

Call it transparency.

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):
I looked through the screening log at my own history with the viewpoint that maybe one or two screeners were against me


So I’m not the only paranoid photographer on here convinced there’s a conspiracy to reject my shots  Like I said, I know the reasons why it may seem a bad idea from a screeners perspective, but as a contributor for some years now, I’ve always been curious as to who exactly accepted or rejected my images.

Quoting acontador (Reply 7):
Does it change in any way the content of the rejection?

Of course not… How could it?

Am I going to send them hate mail? No. Would other people? Perhaps. But as screeners, those entrusted with the responsibility of maintaining the high quality standards of this site, I would expect that you are all intelligent, responsible and emotionally mature enough people to cope with a little criticism, however unjust, every now and again.

Let me also ask the screeners a question? Is it possible that screeners would screen any differently if their name was publicly attached to an acceptance or rejection? Would it prompt some to tick that ‘colorful special’ box that we all forget one time or another.

Just some thoughts.

Steve  
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting sausten (Reply 19):
Is it possible that screeners would screen any differently if their name was publicly attached to an acceptance or rejection?

I doubt it. We already have oversight from the Head Screeners. Plus, we can always SO or HQ if we're not totally sure about something.

Quoting sausten (Reply 19):
Would it prompt some to tick that ‘colorful special’ box that we all forget one time or another.

You'd probably be surprised at how many category mistakes are corrected. But if an image is going to be rejected for something else anyway, then we'll likely include "Category" too, for the photographer's information.

So in Karl's original example, since it was rejected for "Colo(u)r" as well, "Category" was included too.

Quoting sausten (Reply 19):
Am I going to send them hate mail? No. Would other people? Yes.

Fixed that for you.  
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
aussie18
Posts: 1752
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 13):
Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 12):


Calibrated monitors for the screening team might help? It was done previously before DM took over. I know the site and number of screeners was smaller back then, but at least screeners were working from the same screens. It's already been established that part of the issues we see are due to the different screens everyone uses. You can't possibly have consistency when everyone uses different screens and calibrations. Karl's example with colour casts is a case in point.

This issue has been covered before, DM is not going to pay for every screener to have the exact same monitor, We have a crew spread all over the world and have a team that changes throughout the year where screeners leave and new screeners are hired...The cost for the monitors plus the logistical challenge to ship them around the globe would be a nightmare....Are we all expected to go buy the same monitor as volunteers to avoid a small amount of inconsistent screening.

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 14):
I used to upload quite passionately but lately I upload a couple here and there when I am bored. The site's loss of anyone's images is something not to be encouraged.

You have said this is quite a few recent discussion threads and to be honest if you do not upload or not upload as much that is your decision, No one is forced to upload here or any other aviation sites they choose to upload and whether they stop that is their decision as well but from my personal view there is a lot of new photographers uploading to A.net and from time to time we do lose long time contributors but we see new ones every day uploading which is great.
 
aussie18
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting sausten (Reply 19):
Am I going to send them hate mail? No. Would other people? Perhaps. But as screeners, those entrusted with the responsibility of maintaining the high quality standards of this site, I would expect that you are all intelligent, responsible and emotionally mature enough people to cope with a little criticism, however unjust, every now and again.

Its not the hate mail we are worried about, You need to remember as screeners we are all photographers and do travel around the world or even our local airports and we do not want to be harassed by photographers complaining about photo(s) that the screener may have rejected.

Quoting sausten (Reply 19):
Let me also ask the screeners a question? Is it possible that screeners would screen any differently if their name was publicly attached to an acceptance or rejection? Would it prompt some to tick that ‘colorful special’ box that we all forget one time or another.

As Vik mentioned there are quite a few images that do get categories, titles, Rego's, CN, Locations all corrected in screening but there are also ones rejected for this. At the end of the day its the photographers responsibility to get all the information correct when uploading and if they do make a miss something they have the edit option available to correct it.
 
sausten
Posts: 257
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting aussie18 (Reply 22):
You need to remember as screeners we are all photographers and do travel around the world or even our local airports and we do not want to be harassed by photographers complaining about photo(s) that the screener may have rejected.

Is that really a concern, that screeners will be harassed at their local airports? I understand the point your making, but surprised it's an issue.

As it is, screeners tend to be thought of as a collective. Individual decisions, preferences and opinions are not distinguished. Wouldn't people be less likely to 'harass' an individual screener if they knew that screener was not involved in the screening of their shot?

Mark, we share the same local airport, I'v e been enjoying your shots and you've been screening my images for years.... and we've never met.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
Fixed that for you.


Thanks... must have been a typo!
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:34 pm

It seems to be often forgotten that we are all volunteers here. Photographers are just as important as screeners. We put a lot of unpaid hours in too, trying to make this site the best it can be. Screening may be voluntary but the job carries with it a certain amount of responsibility, as I said earlier. If you work for free in a charity shop you can't use the 'volunteer' excuse constantly in order to justify sloppy work. The thing is, you only need a couple of screeners who haven't quite adapted an eye to have an impact on the whole team - a scenario we're most likely seeing right now. You really can't tell me that every new screener you take on has a perfect eye for this sort of judgement? The best candidates for a job sometimes don't turn out to be the best once they've settled into the role.

Quoting aussie18 (Reply 21):
You have said this is quite a few recent discussion threads and to be honest if you do not upload or not upload as much that is your decision, No one is forced to upload here or any other aviation sites they choose to upload and whether they stop that is their decision as well but from my personal view there is a lot of new photographers uploading to A.net and from time to time we do lose long time contributors but we see new ones every day uploading which is great.

This doesn't seem positive comment to me - it's very, "Off you go, we couldn't care less". Wouldn't it be good to keep on board both new and old photographers? I doubt many new photographers are going to bring you shots from the 1990s and early 2000s? And in the case of others, images from much, much earlier?
 
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alevik
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting sausten (Reply 23):
Is that really a concern, that screeners will be harassed at their local airports? I understand the point your making, but surprised it's an issue.

Not sure what difference this would make if an individual photographer knows who screened their shot. What exactly would the photographer do with that information? Internally, every appeal that is processed, whether the image is rejected or accepted, is distributed by email to the entire screening team, with the screeners names attached. The HS process these appeals, and we see those screeners who consistently have appeals granted and we monitor and take action. For each appeal, we can leave a message that the photographer gets in the appeal email (yes, I know not everyone gets these emails....) and also a message to the screening team to point out any inconsistencies in screening (for example - "you missed a rejection reason, please be sure to identify all rejection reasons in future).

Frankly, even though I can check, I don't look to see who rejected my image. I just either appeal it if I think a mistake was made, or I edit and re-upload.

As for monitors - I have a screening set up at work, at my home in Calgary, and my home in Phoenix. Doubt DM will send me three monitors. I also doubt that reducing my screening to only when I am at my home on my home monitor would benefit anyone, most certainly not the queue length. My opinion is doing our best with what we have is not a bad plan.

This type of thread comes up quite regularly, bit like a certain kind of cycle. We are always having screening crew coming and going. The longer a screener is around, the more adapted their "eye" gets. Unfortunately, we can't "hire" in experienced screeners all the time, although some who have left do come back. Even Karl, my opinion is, as accomplished a photographer and editor as he is would have his own troubles getting in the groove of screening, and we'd have a consistency problem from having the leader of pointing out inconsistency being a new screener.

The photographers are volunteers and so is the screening crew. Respect both ways is needed.

Pete
Improvise, adapt, overcome.
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting alevik (Reply 25):
Even Karl, my opinion is, as accomplished a photographer and editor as he is would have his own troubles getting in the groove of screening, and we'd have a consistency problem from having the leader of pointing out inconsistency being a new screener.

Like all people, I have certain bug-bears, so my views on something like heat-haze (which is a real pet hate of mine!) would likely not fit in with everyone else's. That said, I don't find grain a problem, so my tolerance there would perhaps be unacceptable. I will point out that, while I'm a seasoned photographer, editing is still very new to me and if I'm honest I'm not terribly good at it. Luckily I concentrate on getting most things right in camera, which probably saves my bacon and gives the impression that I actually have a clue what's going on in Photoshop.

In answer to your question, I would make a pretty awful screener. That's succinct.

Karl
 
DiScPx
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Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:41 pm

RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:29 pm

Hi folks,

History Background:
- photo uploaded
- photo rejected for reason A.
- Discussed it in this very forum regarding reason A.
- conclusion, after second opinions in this forum, is to appeal.
- photo appealed
- photo rejected for reason B.
- discussed it again and nowone seems to understand why.

Confusion sets in.....and reuploading as proposed by Sausten would result in suspension according to Acontador.

just one question:
What would be the next step to do?

Please refer to my topic Post screening - Banding....

All I would like is some help and or advice.....

@ Acontador: This why I asked screeners to step forward.......for some advice.......So you're more than welcome to visit my topic.
 
vikkyvik
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting DiScPx (Reply 27):
Please refer to my topic Post screening - Banding....

All I would like is some help and or advice.....

@ Acontador: This why I asked screeners to step forward.......for some advice.......So you're more than welcome to visit my topic.

I already posted (and you acknowledged) that I would get back to you regarding your image. Posting in different threads about it won't help that - you'll just have to trust me that I will get back to you.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Newark727
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:14 pm

It would be nice if the process wasn't so opaque. It's hard to take a rejection message at its face value when I don't know how it was looked at, or whether the reasons listed in the notice are "definitive" and include everything that could disqualify the photo. Did it get tossed within five minutes by the first person to look at it because of something non-negotiable? Because if it did, I could fix the dust spot or cropping mistake and then get rejected again because wait, it's still a bit soft. Or maybe it got looked over by several different screeners, but all I've got is guesswork in determining that for the most part. Most of my appeals have been successful, but I only put a photo up for appeal if I hear from other users that I have a shot at it, and I don't think the screeners would appreciate it if I did otherwise.
 
dazbo5
Posts: 2719
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting alevik (Reply 25):
consistency

This is a perfect example of what we mean with consistency and some of the ridiculous reasons we seen regularly, not odd mistakes, regularly;

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...31022_s1381650393.2715g-ezwf-1.jpg

Rejected for distance and grain. Please explain the distance rejection? In terms of consistency, it's no different than half of what's already in the database so why would distance apply here? I don't see any significant grain either.

Accepted yesterday;


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Darren Wilson



Just rejected for colour;

https://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...31022_s1381650731.5075d-aily-1.jpg

What's the difference other than they were taken 30 minutes apart?

Darren

[Edited 2013-10-22 14:51:59]
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
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alevik
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RE: Post-screening - Unsuccessful Appeal

Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:44 am

Yes, let's discipline the volunteer screeners. In no time, we will have none. Sheer ludicracy. You must be "having a laugh?" As I have mentioned previously in this thread, all appeal results are seen by all screening crew with names attached. Not that it is anyone's business but the crew's and those involved, but some screeners have over time been asked to step down.

Quid pro quo, let's ban every uploader who makes a mistake with a category? Uploads a double unintentionally? Should we find every mistake Darren and Karl have made and ban them for it? Don't be silly. Of course not. Have they made mistakes? Silly question - of course they have.

Darren you know full well at least one of your appeals was accepted for a similar rejection reason as the image you link above. I know that, because I processed it. In that case, the system above worked as intended. Ever get a traffic ticket you appealed and were successful appealing? Right, of course you have.

There are some expectations that will never be met. This thread may well go into the hall of fame of that line of thought.

[Edited 2013-10-22 21:54:37]
Improvise, adapt, overcome.

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