I've noticed that aviation news from Greater China hasn't gotten much attention on Airliners.net. While the situation is understandable as this page is geared towards native English speakers, I believe that many interesting and "different" developments in China are worthy of being discussed, especially when the Chinese market rises in influence and becomes more connected than ever to other parts of the world. Airliners.net is a global platform with readers from all over the world. We have threads for various countries and even U.S. states. It is time to start one for the soon-to-be largest air travel market.

This thread is dedicated to news from Greater China that might not deserve a thread of its own but is still significant and noteworthy.

To kick things off, here's a major news from Mainland China today: Chinese aviation authorities have finally eased regulations regarding personal electronic devices (PED; e.g. cell phones). Hainan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines became the first Mainland carriers to allow passengers to have their cell phones on under Flight Mode during the flight. Other Mainland airlines are expected to follow suit shortly. The U.S., Japan, and nearby Taiwan completed amending related regulations years ago. Used to using cell phones in-flight, non-Mainland travelers often got confused and frustrated when they get forced to switch off their cell phones.

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/china-finally-lets-passengers-use-phones-flight-mode

kaichinshih wrote:

I've noticed that aviation news from Greater China hasn't gotten much attention on Airliners.net. While the situation is understandable as this page is geared towards native English speakers, I believe that many interesting and "different" developments in China are worthy of being discussed, especially when the Chinese market rises in influence and becomes more connected than ever to other parts of the world. Airliners.net is a global platform with readers from all over the world. We have threads for various countries and even U.S. states. It is time to start one for the soon-to-be largest air travel market.

This thread is dedicated to news from Greater China that might not deserve a thread of its own but is still significant and noteworthy.

To kick things off, here's a major news from Mainland China today: Chinese aviation authorities have finally eased regulations regarding personal electronic devices (PED; e.g. cell phones). Hainan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines became the first Mainland carriers to allow passengers to have their cell phones on under Flight Mode during the flight. Other Mainland airlines are expected to follow suit shortly. The U.S., Japan, and nearby Taiwan completed amending related regulations years ago. Used to using cell phones in-flight, non-Mainland travelers often got confused and frustrated when they get forced to switch off their cell phones.

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/china-finally-lets-passengers-use-phones-flight-mode

Glad that the mobile phone ban has finally been abolished. Cabin crew on MU out of SYD last year said that it was too hard to enforce as many people usually just turn on flight mode and that they were hoping for a rule change.

Cross-strait tensions continue to escalate following the Mainland activating south-to-north operations on air route M503, located near the Taiwan Strait Middle Line.

[Taiwanese CAA Blocks Applications for 176 Chinese New Year Charters]
The Civil Aviation Authority of Taiwan has taken action on airlines using the M503 air route. Applications for Chinese New Year charter flights by Xiamen Airlines and China Eastern have been put on hold temporarily. Xiamen Airlines has applied for 70 charter flights while China Eastern has applied for 106 flights. Should situations not improve, up to 50,000 travelers (mainly Taiwanese families living in the Mainland) will be affected.

Mainland authorities have stated that M503 is within the Shanghai FIR and is thus an internal affair of the Mainland. Taiwanese officials believe that the route is drawn too close to the Middle Line and negotiations should've taken place prior to activating the route. Official contacts between Taiwan and Mainland China have been suspended since 2016 when President Tsai took office.

Will watch this one with interest, lived in Shanghai/Hangzhou for 6 years and loved it.

Was just looking at the post earlier re Hainan Vancover flights and was checking out departures from PVG and noticed the amount of overnight Cargo flights.

Who is the largest Cargo Airline now in China? Is it Suparna?

Wikipedia tells me that the term "Greater China" offends some people from Taiwan: "But to avoid any political connotation, the term Chinese-speaking world or Sinophone world is often used instead of Greater China ... The term is often used to avoid invoking sensitivities over the political status of Taiwan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_China

Armaghman wrote:

Will watch this one with interest, lived in Shanghai/Hangzhou for 6 years and loved it.

Was just looking at the post earlier re Hainan Vancover flights and was checking out departures from PVG and noticed the amount of overnight Cargo flights.

Who is the largest Cargo Airline now in China? Is it Suparna?

Pretty sure the largest is SF Airlines. Mainly fly out of SZX and HGH. Although they plan to build a giant cargo only airport in E'zhou near Wuhan.

It's really hard to enforce rules when it comes to cell phones being off. Passengers will use them anyway and sometimes it will go unnoticed, simple as that.

I might not know everything on China-Taiwan issues, but if they could just get along and solve there issues everything would be easier. If BR and CI had unlimited access to Chinese airspace, they would be able to operate to Europe much easier.

While unrelated, why does China Airlines fly TPE-Urumqi? How did they get the permission to use Chinese airspace for the flight? Seems kind of weird that the Chinese Government doesn't allow them to overfly there airspace most times but allow TPE-URC flights?

NichCage wrote:

It's really hard to enforce rules when it comes to cell phones being off. Passengers will use them anyway and sometimes it will go unnoticed, simple as that.

I might not know everything on China-Taiwan issues, but if they could just get along and solve there issues everything would be easier. If BR and CI had unlimited access to Chinese airspace, they would be able to operate to Europe much easier.

While unrelated, why does China Airlines fly TPE-Urumqi? How did they get the permission to use Chinese airspace for the flight? Seems kind of weird that the Chinese Government doesn't allow them to overfly there airspace most times but allow TPE-URC flights?

To start, CI cancelled their TPE-URC flight. There are some business tie here and there, but that flight ultimately was mostly tourists. CZ also used to fly that same route anyway.

As for CN-TW relation, it is not going to get any better soon. KMT and ex-President Ma was literally licking mainland's boot all day long and that resulted in a huge electoral defeat for them, even when the current president (Tsai) and DPP are never known for able to govern well (hence why Tsai is so unpopular right now). Then you got Xi in mainland being more and more assertive everyday, and further driving up the division more and more (same for HK). Of course, all of this are results of US foreign influence simply was not what it was, and it doesn't help that the certain person in Mar-a-Lago is utterly clueless about global politics. (I know, long rant and not aviation related at all, but just look at the M503 air route a few posts back, you got an idea of how bad things are right now).

kaichinshih wrote:

To kick things off, here's a major news from Mainland China today: Chinese aviation authorities have finally eased regulations regarding personal electronic devices (PED; e.g. cell phones). Hainan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines became the first Mainland carriers to allow passengers to have their cell phones on under Flight Mode during the flight. Other Mainland airlines are expected to follow suit shortly. The U.S., Japan, and nearby Taiwan completed amending related regulations years ago. Used to using cell phones in-flight, non-Mainland travelers often got confused and frustrated when they get forced to switch off their cell phones.

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/china-finally-lets-passengers-use-phones-flight-mode

Good to see. I flew domestically in China in November and December, and both times was reprimanded for having my phone out in flight. My fault for not listening more carefully to the announcements, but I'm so accustomed to "flight mode" being allowed at home in so many other countries that I'd honestly forgotten.

Good to see a China thread - commercial aviation there is still growing like gangbusters, yet apart from Chinese carriers launching new routes to the US and Europe, we don't seem to discuss it much.

kaichinshih wrote:

To kick things off, here's a major news from Mainland China today: Chinese aviation authorities have finally eased regulations regarding personal electronic devices (PED; e.g. cell phones). Hainan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines became the first Mainland carriers to allow passengers to have their cell phones on under Flight Mode during the flight. Other Mainland airlines are expected to follow suit shortly. The U.S., Japan, and nearby Taiwan completed amending related regulations years ago. Used to using cell phones in-flight, non-Mainland travelers often got confused and frustrated when they get forced to switch off their cell phones.

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/china-finally-lets-passengers-use-phones-flight-mode

Glad to see this finally moving forward, it gets really annoying when flying within China!

kaichinshih wrote:

Cross-strait tensions continue to escalate following the Mainland activating south-to-north operations on air route M503, located near the Taiwan Strait Middle Line.

[Taiwanese CAA Blocks Applications for 176 Chinese New Year Charters]
The Civil Aviation Authority of Taiwan has taken action on airlines using the M503 air route. Applications for Chinese New Year charter flights by Xiamen Airlines and China Eastern have been put on hold temporarily. Xiamen Airlines has applied for 70 charter flights while China Eastern has applied for 106 flights. Should situations not improve, up to 50,000 travelers (mainly Taiwanese families living in the Mainland) will be affected.

Mainland authorities have stated that M503 is within the Shanghai FIR and is thus an internal affair of the Mainland. Taiwanese officials believe that the route is drawn too close to the Middle Line and negotiations should've taken place prior to activating the route. Official contacts between Taiwan and Mainland China have been suspended since 2016 when President Tsai took office.

MU and Xiamen Air are affected as they used the air route. Others are not affected
Taiwanese authority have suggested some different alternatives to travellers, like travel and transfer with airlines from other nations or takey ferry.

NichCage wrote:

I might not know everything on China-Taiwan issues, but if they could just get along and solve there issues everything would be easier. If BR and CI had unlimited access to Chinese airspace, they would be able to operate to Europe much easier.
While unrelated, why does China Airlines fly TPE-Urumqi? How did they get the permission to use Chinese airspace for the flight? Seems kind of weird that the Chinese Government doesn't allow them to overfly there airspace most times but allow TPE-URC flights?

There is ongoing concern that military aircrafts from either country/region could invade the other's airspace by pretending to be civil. Of course it makes little sense as there are direct flights between TPE/KHH and PEK/PVG etc anyway. In addition, some flights originating from Taiwan destined for a non-PRC city are permitted to fly over Chinese airspace (e.g. BR397)

zakuivcustom wrote:

KMT and ex-President Ma was literally licking mainland's boot all day long and that resulted in a huge electoral defeat for them, even when the current president (Tsai) and DPP are never known for able to govern well (hence why Tsai is so unpopular right now)

Massive oversimplification of a very complex issue IMHO. My impression is that collectively people in Taiwan has not yet fully come to terms with a rapidly developing and increasingly influential Mainland. Nevertheless, agree with the conclusion. Things are not going to get better until the next election in TW at the earliest, if KMT is still in any shape to participate in one then. Had Tsai put as much effort in governing as she did trying to put KMT out of business I suspect she would be in a much more comfortable position electorally.

Cerecl wrote:

NichCage wrote:

I might not know everything on China-Taiwan issues, but if they could just get along and solve there issues everything would be easier. If BR and CI had unlimited access to Chinese airspace, they would be able to operate to Europe much easier.
While unrelated, why does China Airlines fly TPE-Urumqi? How did they get the permission to use Chinese airspace for the flight? Seems kind of weird that the Chinese Government doesn't allow them to overfly there airspace most times but allow TPE-URC flights?

There is ongoing concern that military aircrafts from either country/region could invade the other's airspace by pretending to be civil. Of course it makes little sense as there are direct flights between TPE/KHH and PEK/PVG etc anyway. In addition, some flights originating from Taiwan destined for a non-PRC city are permitted to fly over Chinese airspace (e.g. BR397)

For a flight like BR397 I would think that since they already passed through Hong Kong airspace (at least the ATC control part), they can then go into Chinese airspace? I'm not sure how things work nowaday.
While it's a lot easier for Taiwanese aircraft to used mainland airspace nowaday, still there are only a few specific routes cross-strait flights can take anyway (Hence the long detour from TPE to XMN but not TPE to KNH).

Cerecl wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

KMT and ex-President Ma was literally licking mainland's boot all day long and that resulted in a huge electoral defeat for them, even when the current president (Tsai) and DPP are never known for able to govern well (hence why Tsai is so unpopular right now)

Massive oversimplification of a very complex issue IMHO. My impression is that collectively people in Taiwan has not yet fully come to terms with a rapidly developing and increasingly influential Mainland. Nevertheless, agree with the conclusion. Things are not going to get better until the next election in TW at the earliest, if KMT is still in any shape to participate in one then. Had Tsai put as much effort in governing as she did trying to put KMT out of business I suspect she would be in a much more comfortable position electorally.

Yes, I did simplify things quite a bit. But you can't denied that TW people not exactly want to get WAY too close to mainland CN being a factor in KMT losing this badly (I know it's not the only issue. The local economy was not exactly that great for one thing, the KMT pulling off a switch-a-roo at last second didn't help either).

And MU and MF make the cancellation official:

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-p ... id-beijing

The only loser in all these are Taiwanese (mostly businesspeople) returning to Taiwan anyway. Of course, it is not like they like DPP all that much to begin with.

I am more surprised so far that mainland government haven't take action back (i.e. Ban all Taiwanese plane from its airspace). Maybe the mainland govt is not as childish as I tend to put them?

zakuivcustom wrote:

And MU and MF make the cancellation official:

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-p ... id-beijing

The only loser in all these are Taiwanese (mostly businesspeople) returning to Taiwan anyway. Of course, it is not like they like DPP all that much to begin with.

I am more surprised so far that mainland government haven't take action back (i.e. Ban all Taiwanese plane from its airspace). Maybe the mainland govt is not as childish as I tend to put them?

That's 176 flights' worth of extra capacity at one of the Mainland Chinese's biggest time of the year - Chun Yun (the journey back home for Chinese New Year and the subsequent return to their workplace). During this time most of these flights are sold in full fare Y class only (since there're still restrictions on air ticket price domestically), and even so most of the flights go out full to grim. So although the issue is being politicised, airlines don't really care since they'll most likely earn more by redeploying capacity domestically (apart from PR issues).

They once mentioned that they've sold more than 20,000 tickets (the word they used) on these 176 flights. Assuming the number is 20,000, if we do some maths, it translates into 113 pax per flight on average. An A320 from MU can carry 158 pax when full, and even more if the flights were scheduled with A321/widebodies. You figure it.

Michael

After the arrival of GS's first SYD flight (from TSN via CGO) this morning, what do people think will be SYD's next Chinese route?

SYD has more long-haul routes to China than any other city - this will be boosted on Thursday, with HU's new SYD - HAK route.

Maybe these routes are on the horizon? In particular JQ on SYD - MFM (Macau is part of Greater China) and CZ on SYD - URC?



Cheers,

C.

SYD is running out of space to put all the new flights! I'd say MFM and URC are possible in the longer term, but don't actually expect too much for the rest of the year.

zakuivcustom wrote:

And MU and MF make the cancellation official:

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-p ... id-beijing

The only loser in all these are Taiwanese (mostly businesspeople) returning to Taiwan anyway. Of course, it is not like they like DPP all that much to begin with.

It also make TW population being less supportive to the gov't action than the gov't would like to describe, if I understand it correctly

I am more surprised so far that mainland government haven't take action back (i.e. Ban all Taiwanese plane from its airspace). Maybe the mainland govt is not as childish as I tend to put them?

They probably want to downplay the reason since they have already achieved their aim of using the M503, and by ignoring TW's response they can keep their current attitude of no-communication with TW government due to its stance on TW's status, and can also make TW government look bad.

I am reading a report that wrote, in year 2017-2019, Shenzhen is giving every new intercontinental route subsidies according to the following standard
For every route that have more than 2 flights per weeks, in their first year of operation, flight to Europe, North America and Africa will receive 100 Million Yuan subsidy while it is 80 Million for Oceania and Arabic peninsula. 75% for the second year and 50% for the third year.

I am aware of there are subsidies for flights from some airports but didn't realize it's this much...

c933103 wrote:

I am reading a report that wrote, in year 2017-2019, Shenzhen is giving every new intercontinental route subsidies according to the following standard
For every route that have more than 2 flights per weeks, in their first year of operation, flight to Europe, North America and Africa will receive 100 Million Yuan subsidy while it is 80 Million for Oceania and Arabic peninsula. 75% for the second year and 50% for the third year.

I am aware of there are subsidies for flights from some airports but didn't realize it's this much...

Yes, therefore, several 2 weekly intercontinental routes are introduced recently, mostly by Hainan airlines

c933103 wrote:

zakuivcustom wrote:

And MU and MF make the cancellation official:

http://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-p ... id-beijing

The only loser in all these are Taiwanese (mostly businesspeople) returning to Taiwan anyway. Of course, it is not like they like DPP all that much to begin with.

It also make TW population being less supportive to the gov't action than the gov't would like to describe, if I understand it correctly

I am more surprised so far that mainland government haven't take action back (i.e. Ban all Taiwanese plane from its airspace). Maybe the mainland govt is not as childish as I tend to put them?

They probably want to downplay the reason since they have already achieved their aim of using the M503, and by ignoring TW's response they can keep their current attitude of no-communication with TW government due to its stance on TW's status, and can also make TW government look bad.

I guess ultimately, with Taiwanese being the loser anyway, that the (mainland) Chinese gov't don't care . On the other hand, Taiwan localists probably love the response (I haven't check TW news lately, so I don't even know if that's true). In a big picture, whether it's good or bad for Taiwan I wouldn't comment on too much.

planemanofnz wrote:

After the arrival of GS's first SYD flight (from TSN via CGO) this morning, what do people think will be SYD's next Chinese route?

SYD has more long-haul routes to China than any other city - this will be boosted on Thursday, with HU's new SYD - HAK route.

Maybe these routes are on the horizon? In particular JQ on SYD - MFM (Macau is part of Greater China) and CZ on SYD - URC?

Northeast China can't seems to attract long-haul anyway. Out of the three (DLC, SHE, HRB; and I may as well add CGQ to that list), only SHE has any (upcoming) long-haul flight with LH to FRA. It's the Chinese rust belt (Yes, that exist) and unlike how the rest of the country is booming, I don't see things going anywhere economically in that region for now.

An article on the problems in "Dongbei" (Northeast) China:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/outofasia/ ... -rust-belt

Liaoning province, where SHE and DLC are located, is only hanging on anyway. Further north the situation is worse.

SYX is all tourist traffic compare to HAK (Which is the commerical/trade center of Hainan Island), so unless Hainan Island can attract tourists from Australia (Which I personally doubt, between Indonesia+Thailand to the north/northwest and all the Pacific Islands or even Hawaii to East/NE, Hainan is a joke in comparison), I doubt there will be a flight from SYX soon.

MFM with JQ is possible, but may not last too long. Once the (somewhat boondoogle and way overbudget) Hong Kong-Macau Bridge is open, that would reduced the time from HKG (airport) to Macau even further.

URC I don't see the demand. Connection to Central Asia? Tourism to that area won't grow too much either as it's not exactly a stable region with tons of movement restriction.

KWE is poor . And unlike its neighbor KMG and Yunnan province, Guizhou province tourism draw is nowhere as big.

The city that I think is next is actually TNA, which has service to LAX but not SYD. After that I would say SHE, being the "center" of the Dongbei region and at least for now is doing okay economically. Don't see any other cities in short term, though.

How about like Jinan, Taiyuan, Nanning, Kaohsing, Chaoshan, Wuxi, Ningbo, Quanzhou or Lanzhou?
And is there currently no nonstop flight to Tianjin from Sydney?

3U is extending its CTU - PRG flight to ZRH.

See: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... arch-2018/.

Interesting to do the tag - why bother?

Cheers,

C.

kaichinshih wrote:

I've noticed that aviation news from Greater China hasn't gotten much attention on Airliners.net. While the situation is understandable as this page is geared towards native English speakers, I believe that many interesting and "different" developments in China are worthy of being discussed, especially when the Chinese market rises in influence and becomes more connected than ever to other parts of the world. Airliners.net is a global platform with readers from all over the world. We have threads for various countries and even U.S. states. It is time to start one for the soon-to-be largest air travel market...

Thank you for starting this thread.

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...

I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:

1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...
2.) toilets in the first class lounge in PEK are in a very bad state and need rehabilitation quickly
3.) Internet access in the lounge (domestic part of Terminal 3)

Last point needs some explanation. They used to have a kind of a ticket machine where you had to scan your passport to get a small piece of paper with a password. Now they say you don’t need this any longer, you can connect directly via airport WiFi. Which is correct if you have a Chinese mobile phone but for foreigners it always ends that the assistant at the front desk will enter her private mobile phone number on your mobile phone...

Come on, these are so basic things. It would be easy to fix these kind of things...

Edit - I just realised:

No. 4): the socket on my seat in the lounge is not working

N14AZ wrote:

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...
I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:
1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...
2.) toilets in the first class lounge in PEK are in a very bad state and need rehabilitation quickly
3.) Internet access in the lounge (domestic part of Terminal 3)
4) the socket on my seat in the lounge is not working

All true, but :
1) US3 FAs should be internationally competitive & speak other languages, just abysmal compared to EU3 & specially ME3 service.
2) I can say that of many other first world airports.
3) Internet is often slow in many first world airports even in Legacy cabins ( less in lounges ). Heck, CX is just installing wifi in their 777s.
4) A power surge in HKG blew my laptop last year...

More seriously, I welcome this thread. A few weeks ago, I opened a thread based on a CAPA article :

Chinese airlines supplanting ME3 as the competitive LH concern for other airlines.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382743

kitplane01 wrote:

Wikipedia tells me that the term "Greater China" offends some people from Taiwan: "But to avoid any political connotation, the term Chinese-speaking world or Sinophone world is often used instead of Greater China ... The term is often used to avoid invoking sensitivities over the political status of Taiwan."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_China

Thank you for raising this. However, the term "Sinophone", or Chinese-speaking world, isn't really used on a daily basis. I only recall seeing the term in a handful of scholarly articles. Greater China is a socio-economic term that doesn't imply any authority in the region as a part of nor independent of another authority. This is also why the CI-MU-MF-CZ alliance is named as "Greater China Connection". Summing things up, I believe that the term is the most politically correct and recognizable one for a thread covering Mainland-HK-Macau-Taiwan aviation developments.

DWC wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...
I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:
1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...
2.) toilets in the first class lounge in PEK are in a very bad state and need rehabilitation quickly
3.) Internet access in the lounge (domestic part of Terminal 3)
4) the socket on my seat in the lounge is not working

All true, but :
1) US3 FAs should be internationally competitive & speak other languages, just abysmal compared to EU3 & specially ME3 service.
2) I can say that of many other first world airports.
3) Internet is often slow in many first world airports even in Legacy cabins ( less in lounges ). Heck, CX is just installing wifi in their 777s.
4) A power surge in HKG blew my laptop last year...

More seriously, I welcome this thread. A few weeks ago, I opened a thread based on a CAPA article :

Chinese airlines supplanting ME3 as the competitive LH concern for other airlines.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382743

Using digital services is a pain for all non-Mainlanders though, I must say. How so many apps are linked to local bank accounts/ local cell phones/ local IDs/ WeChat accounts makes things extremely unfriendly and difficult to foreigners. Many Chinese online forums require local IDs. WeChat Pay isn't available for people without a Chinese bank account. With so many businesses in China only accepting digital wallets, foreigners may be left helpless when they can only access physical currency.

kaichinshih wrote:

Using digital services is a pain for all non-Mainlanders though, I must say. How so many apps are linked to local bank accounts/ local cell phones/ local IDs/ WeChat accounts makes things extremely unfriendly and difficult to foreigners. Many Chinese online forums require local IDs. WeChat Pay isn't available for people without a Chinese bank account. With so many businesses in China only accepting digital wallets, foreigners may be left helpless when they can only access physical currency.

Agreed.
But consider what Chinese, Japanese, Arabs or Russians feel when they fly through western airports, all in Latin script. In general, none of these country citizens are fluent in English or even at ease deciphering western languages.

More to the point, there are 1.4 billion Chinese ( all don't fly admitedly ) in a country that is developping very fast and going all virtual : why would they kowtow to Western comfort when the West does not to them, and to only 360 million North Americans ( Canadians included ) or 760 million EU citizens ? Better adapt to China, is the world's first economic power or will soon be & leapfrog any other.
start learning chinese ( I have ) & getting used to their electronic policies.

DWC wrote:

Better adapt to China, is the world's first economic power or will soon be & leapfrog any other.
start learning chinese ( I have ) & getting used to their electronic policies.

I agree with you about China’s great future.

But I don’t agree with your conclusion to accept that they don’t speak English on international flights and to start learning Chinese (I have as well): English is the main language when it comes to international air traffic. It might be Chinese some day but for now it’s English. And when you offer international flights I think you can expect that the FAs speak English.

Clarification: I am not complaining about the staff here in China. Of course, people here in the lounges don’t travel that much and can hardly improve their English. But FA‘s who regularly fly to Europe? The woman next to me on the flight from FRA to PEK was not able to order a sparkling water because the FA didn’t understand. I helped by saying “Watson” and he understood... I ordered a Vodka Orange, he brought me one glas of orange juice and one glas full of Vodka (.... well, that wasn’t too bad actually...) .I think they should get some training...

N14AZ wrote:

DWC wrote:

Better adapt to China, is the world's first economic power or will soon be & leapfrog any other.
start learning chinese ( I have ) & getting used to their electronic policies.

I agree with you about China’s great future.

But I don’t agree with your conclusion to accept that they don’t speak English on international flights and to start learning Chinese (I have as well): English is the main language when it comes to international air traffic. It might be Chinese some day but for now it’s English. And when you offer international flights I think you can expect that the FAs speak English.

Well, it's like this imho :
1. I did not conclude chinese FAs shouldn't speak English, I was showing it was asking them an effort few native English speakers will ever consider : learn a foreign language, let alone pronounce it correctly & intelligibly ( take the French pronouncing English & that's half as bad as Brittons or Americans pronouncing any other language ).
2. You would be surprised by the sheer number of passengers not speaking English or the airline's language(s) who do not even dare to call the FA's, let alone manage in foreign airports. I have seen too many people stranded like that in my life, helped when I could.
3. English is the main ATC & business language for now, but it is ethnocentric. Commercially and humanly, other nationals feel it is out of colonial or economic imperialism & revert to their native language ASAP, even if FA's announcements are often in English out of courtesy & most often per airline commercial policy - for now.
4. Actually, the bulk of possible knowledgeable a-netters do not participate here & instead stay or feed forums in their own language ( from aviation powers for starters : Germans, French, Russians, Chinese, Japanese )
5. Fact is English comes in 3rd place in terms of total number of speakers, Mandarin & Spanish come first & are ever growing, so at some point these will take over. Some major languages do not have the world recognition they deserve due to their world rank, because of political divisions or containment, yet most of these are growing faster than English populations : hindi/urdu (4th), arabic (5ft), bengali (6th), portuguese (7th), even russian (8th) & japanese (10th).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... f_speakers
6. Last, and best ( or worse ) of all, China just does not care & does not need to. I work a lot with China, and one has better understand & speak Chinese or miss many oportunities, not just business : the very access to their people & to one of the world's most remarkable cultures.

Air Belgium aims to serve Hong Kong starting the end of March 2018 after the arrival of its first of 4 A340-300 in mid-February 2018. Instead of Brussels Airport, Air Belgium will be utilizing the smaller Brussels South Charleroi Airport.

http://www.airbelgium.com/en/press/brus ... ater-china

According to China Airlines President Hsieh, CI is still considering whether the A350-1000 is the right aircraft for CI. In the US, only Los Angeles can support the capacity of the aircraft type. However, as the O&D market is small and more countries (likely referring to SE Asia) are launching nonstop flights to LAX, China Airlines will need to further evaluate the market. In Europe, only Frankfurt can support the A350-1000. In other long-haul markets, such as JFK and AMS, the A350-900 is sufficient.

Note: China Airlines doesn't currently serve JFK with the A350-900.

Source in Traditional Chinese: http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/life/breakingnews/2329699

DWC wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...
I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:
1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...
2.) toilets in the first class lounge in PEK are in a very bad state and need rehabilitation quickly
3.) Internet access in the lounge (domestic part of Terminal 3)
4) the socket on my seat in the lounge is not working

All true, but :
1) US3 FAs should be internationally competitive & speak other languages, just abysmal compared to EU3 & specially ME3 service.
2) I can say that of many other first world airports.
3) Internet is often slow in many first world airports even in Legacy cabins ( less in lounges ). Heck, CX is just installing wifi in their 777s.
4) A power surge in HKG blew my laptop last year...

More seriously, I welcome this thread. A few weeks ago, I opened a thread based on a CAPA article :

Chinese airlines supplanting ME3 as the competitive LH concern for other airlines.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382743

Your assertion is that bad service is ok as long as there is worse service elsewhere?

planemanofnz wrote:

After the arrival of GS's first SYD flight (from TSN via CGO) this morning, what do people think will be SYD's next Chinese route?

SYD has more long-haul routes to China than any other city - this will be boosted on Thursday, with HU's new SYD - HAK route.

Maybe these routes are on the horizon? In particular JQ on SYD - MFM (Macau is part of Greater China) and CZ on SYD - URC?

These all have to be absolutely hemorrhaging money. Is there any practical limit to the number of longhaul money losers Chinese carriers can add?

Do Chinese airlines usually offer overnight lodging for free for connecting passengers? Or is it something you have to request to receive? I think Xiamen Airlines does that in Xiamen, doesn’t it?

DWC wrote:

kaichinshih wrote:

More to the point, there are 1.4 billion Chinese ( all don't fly admitedly ) in a country that is developping very fast and going all virtual : why would they kowtow to Western comfort when the West does not to them, and to only 360 million North Americans ( Canadians included ) or 760 million EU citizens ? Better adapt to China, is the world's first economic power or will soon be & leapfrog any other.
start learning chinese ( I have ) & getting used to their electronic policies.

I love this statistic, it applies to so many things including aviation. In fact i'll take it a bit further. In 2000 the USA, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and Japan made up 90% of the aviation industry, combined they have less people than China.

planemanofnz wrote:

MFM was tried and failed by Viva Macau before its demise (same goes for MEL-MFM) but at that time external environment played a factor (high oil price etc). However I believe they never ran a daily schedule to either airports (correct me if I'm wrong) and they had problems trying to fill even a 762ER. Given the population size and relative proximity to CAN and particularly HKG and SZX (where there's direct ferry service) I doubt we'll see much for now.

Plus MFM is under a different civil aviation administration body & covered by different ASAs. I don't know whether any of the Chinese carriers would be interested at opening long-hauls from MFM at all.

DWC wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...
I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:
1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...
2.) toilets in the first class lounge in PEK are in a very bad state and need rehabilitation quickly
3.) Internet access in the lounge (domestic part of Terminal 3)
4) the socket on my seat in the lounge is not working

All true, but :
1) US3 FAs should be internationally competitive & speak other languages, just abysmal compared to EU3 & specially ME3 service.
2) I can say that of many other first world airports.
3) Internet is often slow in many first world airports even in Legacy cabins ( less in lounges ). Heck, CX is just installing wifi in their 777s.
4) A power surge in HKG blew my laptop last year...

More seriously, I welcome this thread. A few weeks ago, I opened a thread based on a CAPA article :

Chinese airlines supplanting ME3 as the competitive LH concern for other airlines.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382743

Don't have solutions to 1) as they're lacking of available FAs doing international trips so that may be part of the reason.

But the lounge.... Well CA never invested much in lounge (neither are other ones). Their main lounges at PEK is certainly tired and they had a better lounge at PVG, but still it's far better than those in the secondary cities.

kaichinshih wrote:

Using digital services is a pain for all non-Mainlanders though, I must say. How so many apps are linked to local bank accounts/ local cell phones/ local IDs/ WeChat accounts makes things extremely unfriendly and difficult to foreigners. Many Chinese online forums require local IDs. WeChat Pay isn't available for people without a Chinese bank account. With so many businesses in China only accepting digital wallets, foreigners may be left helpless when they can only access physical currency.

Well you can't do much about these, even for those who lived overseas for long can hardly find these services helpful......

Overthecascades wrote:

Do Chinese airlines usually offer overnight lodging for free for connecting passengers? Or is it something you have to request to receive? I think Xiamen Airlines does that in Xiamen, doesn’t it?

They do. You have to request it for MU/CA, while the likes of CZ/HU (subsidiaries excluded) normally just give that straight to you. Not for others though AFAIK.

Michael

kaichinshih wrote:

According to China Airlines President Hsieh, CI is still considering whether the A350-1000 is the right aircraft for CI. In the US, only Los Angeles can support the capacity of the aircraft type. However, as the O&D market is small and more countries (likely referring to SE Asia) are launching nonstop flights to LAX, China Airlines will need to further evaluate the market. In Europe, only Frankfurt can support the A350-1000. In other long-haul markets, such as JFK and AMS, the A350-900 is sufficient.

Note: China Airlines doesn't currently serve JFK with the A350-900.

Source in Traditional Chinese: http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/life/breakingnews/2329699

I could be wrong, but CI's 6 A350 options were due to expired by the end of last year or no? It seems they really take long before making a decision, same as their NB fleet order.

I actually think the 280t A350-900 can be excellent for CI, surely they can fly them into NY where they have been losing money for decades. Most of CI's European services are less than daily, choosing the smaller aircraft also helps to increase frequencies into key markets like LGW/AMS as well as SYD on the other side of the pond.

Regarding to CI's comments about potential future more direct SE Asia - NA services, I think they have already responding, giving up second flights at SFO/LAX, but maintain market coverage, focus on expansions in Europe and Oz. Having long lost the SE Asia - NA battle vs BR, and considering BR also have been cutting back frequencies to ORD/SEA and even JFK for April, it's probably the wise move.

PS long time reader, first time poster, it's brilliant to have a post for Chinese speaking parts of world!

Hainan Airlines has held a press conference for the new service connecting Beijing to Mexico City via. Tijuana. The thrice-weekly services will be launched March 21 with the Boeing 787. The CBX facility at TIJ was specifically mentioned; Hainan Airlines will be tackling the San Diego market with this route as well.

The schedule is as follows:
HU7925 1-3-5-- PEK 1830 - TIJ 1555 TIJ 1755 - MEX 2200
HU7926 -2-4-6- MEX 0000 - TIJ 0215 TIJ 0415 - PEK 0835+1

GLANKG wrote:

kaichinshih wrote:

According to China Airlines President Hsieh, CI is still considering whether the A350-1000 is the right aircraft for CI. In the US, only Los Angeles can support the capacity of the aircraft type. However, as the O&D market is small and more countries (likely referring to SE Asia) are launching nonstop flights to LAX, China Airlines will need to further evaluate the market. In Europe, only Frankfurt can support the A350-1000. In other long-haul markets, such as JFK and AMS, the A350-900 is sufficient.

Note: China Airlines doesn't currently serve JFK with the A350-900.

Source in Traditional Chinese: http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/life/breakingnews/2329699

I could be wrong, but CI's 6 A350 options were due to expired by the end of last year or no? It seems they really take long before making a decision, same as their NB fleet order.

I actually think the 280t A350-900 can be excellent for CI, surely they can fly them into NY where they have been losing money for decades. Most of CI's European services are less than daily, choosing the smaller aircraft also helps to increase frequencies into key markets like LGW/AMS as well as SYD on the other side of the pond.

Regarding to CI's comments about potential future more direct SE Asia - NA services, I think they have already responding, giving up second flights at SFO/LAX, but maintain market coverage, focus on expansions in Europe and Oz. Having long lost the SE Asia - NA battle vs BR, and considering BR also have been cutting back frequencies to ORD/SEA and even JFK for April, it's probably the wise move.

PS long time reader, first time poster, it's brilliant to have a post for Chinese speaking parts of world!

How CI and BR respond to be change in SE Asia traffic will be interesting. Wise move for CI in SoCal to Ontario

eamondzhang wrote:

They do. You have to request it for MU/CA, while the likes of CZ/HU (subsidiaries excluded) normally just give that straight to you. Not for others though AFAIK.

Michael

Personally, I have received accommodation from West Air, CZ, HU, and Okay Airways for weather/ATC and mechanical delays alike. Okay even distributed 300 yuan cash to all passengers after a 14 hour delay. Always pleased with this versus being left to camp on the terminal floor by US carriers.

eamondzhang wrote:

Given ... relative proximity to CAN and particularly HKG and SZX (where there's direct ferry service) I doubt we'll see much for now. Plus MFM is under a different civil aviation administration body & covered by different ASAs. I don't know whether any of the Chinese carriers would be interested at opening long-hauls from MFM at all.

IMHO, the proximity to HKG is a good thing for the prospect of a service - JQ may view it as a way to serve the area, without encountering HKG's high landing charges and slot issues. As you say, times have changed since Viva Macau - MFM's economy and tourism infrastructure have grown considerably. Plus, the new bridge to HKG improves the catchment area.

Cheers,

C.

ncflyer wrote:

Not to hijack this excellent discussion too much but does anyone understand why flights to USA are cheap as dirt. I’m paying $550 for coach fare from Pittsburgh to Beijing. This is WAY less to any other international destination, such as Japan, Europe, S America. It’s not even close. It’s even less than the Caribbean which is 1/5 the distance. What competitive force is driving such irrational pricing? I thought slots from USA to Beijing were constrained??

USA to China is not. With full amount of seat dumping by just about everyone it's not surprised that the fares are low, especially during the low season (not quite sure when is your ticket). China Southern can sell a 16.5hr flight (CAN-JFK return trip) for $300 USD, so you kind of get it.

classicjets wrote:

Personally, I have received accommodation from West Air, CZ, HU, and Okay Airways for weather/ATC and mechanical delays alike. Okay even distributed 300 yuan cash to all passengers after a 14 hour delay. Always pleased with this versus being left to camp on the terminal floor by US carriers.

There's a rule that if your flight's delayed by more than 4hr in China (and you haven't boarded the plane yet), you have to get some sort of hotel accommodation. Same goes for flight & cabin crew now. But I believe the OP was talking about a normal transit with a layover.

planemanofnz wrote:

IMHO, the proximity to HKG is a good thing for the prospect of a service - JQ may view it as a way to serve the area, without encountering HKG's high landing charges and slot issues. As you say, times have changed since Viva Macau - MFM's economy and tourism infrastructure have grown considerably. Plus, the new bridge to HKG improves the catchment area.

In reality (for now) the proximity to both HKG and other parts are only grabbing traffic away from MFM. Look at the services at MFM now - really how many foreign carriers can support regional link? I can remember recently that Thai cut BKK and Tiger cut SIN, and there doesn't seems to be much increase apart from Air Macau (all I can remember is 1x daily PEK-MFM by JD). I know quite a few people from MFM/ZUH area who told me most of them went to HKG for better flight options, far cheaper fares that is more than enough to cover the ferry, as well as direct flights to their destinations but that's the least concern.

But one thing that will be interesting is how the recent additions of SZX flights taking traffic away from CAN, ZUH/MFM and HKG.

MIchael

eamondzhang wrote:

Look at the services at MFM now - really how many foreign carriers can support regional link?

Actually, quite a lot - mostly LCCs, like JQ is - as a limited example:

- Bangkok: FD, O8
- Jakarta: QZ
- Kuala Lumpur: AK
- Manila: PR, PQ, 5J
- Seoul: LJ, RS, TW, 7C
- Singapore: TR

eamondzhang wrote:

I know quite a few people from MFM/ZUH area who told me most of them went to HKG for ... far cheaper fares

That argument works both ways though - if the flights are cheap enough ex-MFM (with prices lowered by fewer slot restrictions and lower landing fees, compared to HKG), people from HKG may consider using a JQ MFM - SYD flight, instead of a CX or QF HKG - SYD flight.

Further, most MFM flights cater to in-bound traffic (like Chinese people going to gamble in MFM) anyway. A SYD - MFM service on JQ could be the same - price-sensitive Australians and New Zealanders wanting a cheaper way to explore HKG, instead of using CX or QF.

Cheers,

C.

planemanofnz wrote:

Actually, quite a lot - mostly LCCs, like JQ is - as a limited example:

- Bangkok: FD, O8
- Jakarta: QZ
- Kuala Lumpur: AK
- Manila: PR, PQ, 5J
- Seoul: LJ, RS, TW, 7C
- Singapore: TR

1) QZ doesn't fly CGK-MFM, and no one does
2) For MNL, only 5J flies the route daily. PR and Z2 (not sure who you mean by PQ) flies 5x weekly respectively.
3) None of them goes more than daily for ICN, guess how big the market is really?

planemanofnz wrote:

That argument works both ways though - if the flights are cheap enough ex-MFM (with prices lowered by fewer slot restrictions and lower landing fees, compared to HKG), people from HKG may consider using a JQ MFM - SYD flight, instead of a CX or QF HKG - SYD flight.

It's not like you can't get QF/CX HKG-SYD for less than $600 these days. If anything, they would go SZX already since that route can go A$350-$400 price range easily. You can't even get to PER and back with the price tag (on QF/VA).

planemanofnz wrote:

Further, most MFM flights cater to in-bound traffic (like Chinese people going to gamble in MFM) anyway.

In fact quite the opposite. If it's not ZUH being restricted from becoming an international airport (by CAAC) you'll see quite a lot of flights diminishing from MFM shortly. Although I mentioned that quite a few I know from ZUH area goes HKG, it's still the ones from ZUH that helped filling the flight from MFM. Macau's population is only 650,000 when ZUH has 1.56 Million, guess which market is bigger?

Michael

planemanofnz wrote:

That argument works both ways though - if the flights are cheap enough ex-MFM (with prices lowered by fewer slot restrictions and lower landing fees, compared to HKG), people from HKG may consider using a JQ MFM - SYD flight, instead of a CX or QF HKG - SYD flight.

Except the inverse doesn't work nearly as well as HKG->MFM. After the HK-Macau(-Zhuhai) Bridge open, the HK-side entrance to the bridge is literally adjacent to HKG airport, while going from more central part of Hong Kong to Macau (and v.v.) is a much longer journey even with the bridge, as that basically involved driving to HKG airport, then add some times to cross the border to Macau, and then still have to cross from mainland part of Macau into Taipa to the airport.

eamondzhang wrote:

planemanofnz wrote:

Actually, quite a lot - mostly LCCs, like JQ is - as a limited example:

- Bangkok: FD, O8
- Jakarta: QZ
- Kuala Lumpur: AK
- Manila: PR, PQ, 5J
- Seoul: LJ, RS, TW, 7C
- Singapore: TR

1) QZ doesn't fly CGK-MFM, and no one does
2) For MNL, only 5J flies the route daily. PR and Z2 (not sure who you mean by PQ) flies 5x weekly respectively.
3) None of them goes more than daily for ICN, guess how big the market is really?

QZ actually used to fly CGK-MFM. That ends just 2 weeks ago (Jan. 16th).

On the other hand, none of the carrier listed above only fly to MFM. All actually fly to HKG also. And quite frankly, the fare out of MFM is often not all that cheaper than HKG to warrant "crossing the big sea" (Anyone from HK will know what I mean ).

eamondzhang wrote:

DWC wrote:

N14AZ wrote:

Writing these lines from the CA-lounge in PEK...
I have to say that Air China really has to find a way to improve services. Just three examples from one single flight:
1.) FA don’t speak English on an international flight...

Don't have solutions to 1) as they're lacking of available FAs doing international trips so that may be part of the reason.

I guess you are right. After I had complained here about the FA's English here I had a domestic flight from PEK to Yuncheng and guess what, suddenly I had a guilty conscience because on that flight there was a very kind FA who spoke very well English. She even came to me to improve her English skills (well, I am definitely not the right person for that purpose but how was she supposed to know: she had told me they will serve a hamburger as a snack after take-off. I was quit sure they wouldn’t bring a hamburger because in the past it used to be a panini and that’s what they actually served. Shortly before landing the FA came to me to ask “how do you call what I just called hamburger”, I said “panini” and she started laughing because they say the same in Chinese.

eamondzhang wrote:

But the lounge.... Well CA never invested much in lounge (neither are other ones). Their main lounges at PEK is certainly tired and they had a better lounge at PVG, but still it's far better than those in the secondary cities.

True, the lounges at the provincial airports are a joke...

Another topic: after seeing an SQ A380 in PEK I just learned yesterday from that discussion - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1384793&p=20141437#p20141437 - that SQ now sends their A380s to PEK. That's a nice upgrade from the usual B777 or A330 they used to fly to/from PEK before...

N14AZ wrote:

eamondzhang wrote:

DWC wrote:

Don't have solutions to 1) as they're lacking of available FAs doing international trips so that may be part of the reason.

I guess you are right. After I had complained here about the FA's English here I had a domestic flight from PEK to Yuncheng and guess what, suddenly I had a guilty conscience because on that flight there was a very kind FA who spoke very well English. She even came to me to improve her English skills (well, I am definitely not the right person for that purpose but how was she supposed to know: she had told me they will serve a hamburger as a snack after take-off. I was quit sure they wouldn’t bring a hamburger because in the past it used to be a panini and that’s what they actually served. Shortly before landing the FA came to me to ask “how do you call what I just called hamburger”, I said “panini” and she started laughing because they say the same in Chinese.

eamondzhang wrote:

But the lounge.... Well CA never invested much in lounge (neither are other ones). Their main lounges at PEK is certainly tired and they had a better lounge at PVG, but still it's far better than those in the secondary cities.

True, the lounges at the provincial airports are a joke...

Another topic: after seeing an SQ A380 in PEK I just learned yesterday from that discussion - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1384793&p=20141437#p20141437 - that SQ now sends their A380s to PEK. That's a nice upgrade from the usual B777 or A330 they used to fly to/from PEK before...

Ah, the famous Air China panini (did I get the carrier right?) I've witnessed so many being thrown away since it's just tasteless and IMHO a waste of food.

SQ flies A380 to PEK since 2010 or 2011, and it has stayed that way. The other two flights have or will be upgraded to 77W by S18, so it'll be far better now.

Michael

eamondzhang wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Not to hijack this excellent discussion too much but does anyone understand why flights to USA are cheap as dirt. I’m paying $550 for coach fare from Pittsburgh to Beijing. This is WAY less to any other international destination, such as Japan, Europe, S America. It’s not even close. It’s even less than the Caribbean which is 1/5 the distance. What competitive force is driving such irrational pricing? I thought slots from USA to Beijing were constrained??

USA to China is not. With full amount of seat dumping by just about everyone it's not surprised that the fares are low, especially during the low season (not quite sure when is your ticket). China Southern can sell a 16.5hr flight (CAN-JFK return trip) for $300 USD, so you kind of get it.

Domestic China is so constrained that it's easier to send planes abroad, never mind more high profile. And on a related note, also because of things like this:

c933103 wrote:

I am reading a report that wrote, in year 2017-2019, Shenzhen is giving every new intercontinental route subsidies according to the following standard
For every route that have more than 2 flights per weeks, in their first year of operation, flight to Europe, North America and Africa will receive 100 Million Yuan subsidy while it is 80 Million for Oceania and Arabic peninsula. 75% for the second year and 50% for the third year.

I am aware of there are subsidies for flights from some airports but didn't realize it's this much...

eamondzhang wrote:

None of them goes more than daily

You can argue the finer details all you want, but the point is that many foreign carriers serve MFM.

eamondzhang wrote:

... it's still the ones from ZUH that helped filling the flight from MFM... Macau's population is only 650,000

Source? IMO, MFM's population size is irrelevant - it's a tourism market (like CHC, CJU or CNS).

Cheers,

C.