airzona11
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Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:46 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... dy-contest

Personally, I think this is more of American Airlines hedging against the next downturn vs a 787/A350 contest. Parker and crew have been with Airbus since the America West days so have been around long enough to know the downturns are inevitable and capex needs to be used wisely.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:49 pm

Why would they order the A330NEO when they already have the 787 in their fleet?
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Samrnpage
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:49 pm

I am a geek - but I have no idea what you just said.

Either way I am disappointed, not sure the A330NEO is working for airbus at the moment.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:52 pm

airzona11 wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-23/airbus-a330-neo-dropped-from-american-airlines-wide-body-contest

Personally, I think this is more of American Airlines hedging against the next downturn vs a 787/A350 contest. Parker and crew have been with Airbus since the America West days so have been around long enough to know the downturns are inevitable and capex needs to be used wisely.

Could be trying to extract A330NEO pricing on A350 purchase, or even sharper NEO pricing. Make it worth our while to order two models.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:53 pm

American has 35 787's already 20 787-8 and 15 787-9 with 7 more 787-9 on the way.

I expect once they cancel the A350 order completely, there will be a purchase of 10 more 777/787-9
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neomax
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:56 pm

Yow, Airbus is going to have to think fast!
 
bigjku
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:02 pm

Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.
 
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Polot
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:02 pm

I think this is a result of AA wanting to simplify their future fleet. The A330neo doesn’t bring enough to the table for them to justify operating it for decades along side the 787s and any 797/A322s they are probably interested in. The A332s will eventually be phased out and the A330 fleet type gone. I expect AA to keep the A350 order for eventual 77E replacement.

Link from Leeham: https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/23/in-ne ... ision-yet/

They say thy have confirmed it from 2 sources and the A350 order is dead. Probably a “soft” A350 contract (or whatever Planesmart calls it) since the order dates back to the A350 mk1.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Austin787
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:02 pm

Airbus could possibly offer AA discounted, end of line pricing on A332s. Which can be used to phase out the remaining 763s and would fit in with AA's current A332s. I think AA keeps the A350 order to eventually replace 772ER.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:04 pm

bigjku wrote:
If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.


Can as well be Airbus is pricing it's products responsibly vs. the competition.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:04 pm

bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.

How is the A330NEO being underbid? I have my own estimate for each airframes production cost and I believe Airbus could be more agressive.

Note:. I also have an estimate of A350 production costs and I believe Airbus must do as Boeing did for the last 3 years and will continue this year: perform a scorched Earth policy to reduce costs.

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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:05 pm

Burying the lede is that the A330neo was Airbus's sub in for the A350 that AA has on order (inherited from US). It seems that all the scuttlebutt here re AA not taking the A350 was indeed correct. Shame, as I would have liked to see that plane in that livery.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:06 pm

Austin787 wrote:
Airbus could possibly offer AA discounted, end of line pricing on A332s. Which can be used to phase out the remaining 763s and would fit in with AA's current A332s. I think AA keeps the A350 order to eventually replace 772ER.

Or not, from the article...

The carrier said in January that it was considering the re-engined A330 and 787-9 as possible replacements for the 22 A350s ordered more than a decade ago.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:08 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Burying the lede is that the A330neo was Airbus's sub in for the A350 that AA has on order (inherited from US). It seems that all the scuttlebutt here re AA not taking the A350 was indeed correct. Shame, as I would have liked to see that plane in that livery.

Life is funny sometimes, AA had the first A350 qualified pilot in the US (remember AA was originally going to be the first US operator, just ahead of DL) and it is looking like he will never get a chance to fly it in commercial service.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:11 pm

“In this case, the competition simply priced their aircraft lower than we were willing to offer,” Airbus said in a statement. “We look forward to the next opportunity to compete with what we know is a superior product.”


If this is true (and that remains to be seeen) and Boeing is aggresively discounting the 787 I wonder how much time it will take to pay back its developement costs if ever...
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:13 pm

Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.

How is the A330NEO being underbid? I have my own estimate for each airframes production cost and I believe Airbus could be more agressive.

Note:. I also have an estimate of A350 production costs and I believe Airbus must do as Boeing did for the last 3 years and will continue this year: perform a scorched Earth policy to reduce costs.

Lightsaber


“In this case, the competition simply priced their aircraft lower than we were willing to offer,” Airbus said in a statement. “We look forward to the next opportunity to compete with what we know is a superior product.”

Was from the article, not my speculation. I don’t think the A330neo is as cheap as maybe Airbus hoped. The new model engines do a lot to bring its cost upwards. The 787 doesn’t have to beat it, only get close.

I also agree with you on the A350.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:21 pm

ap305 wrote:
Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.

Increasing production that high that quickly is not something easily done. You don’t just snap your figures and say I want it to be 16-17 a month and it is done. The A350 has struggled at times with increasing production to just its current level. Airbus is not necessarily the ones who can decide the ultimate production rate. Boeing has a big head start because the 787 has been in production several years longer than the A350.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:21 pm

Polot wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.

Increasing production that high that quickly is not something easily done. You don’t just snap your figures and say I want it to be 16-17 a month and it is done. The A350 has struggled at times with increasing production to just its current level. Airbus is not necessarily the ones who can decide the ultimate production rate. Boeing has a big head start because the 787 has been in production several years longer than the A350.


Which is why I said drop the a330 and focus on the a350.... anything can be done if you are willing to increase the outlay and help suppliers like spirit. The issue has been Airbus getting distracted developing air taxis etc and not focusing on their core business. This where Enders has failed.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:22 pm

Seems AA is poised for a 789/78X order.
 
ap305
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:25 pm

bigjku wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.


The A350 is too big and has too much range and capability for many of the A330’s that will be replaced.


All that the -800 needed was a modified wing which would have cost a lot less than the a330neo... Airbus lost their way and developed the a330neo which while a fine aircraft is now being seen as a cheap product that is not cheap enough.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:25 pm

Polot wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Burying the lede is that the A330neo was Airbus's sub in for the A350 that AA has on order (inherited from US). It seems that all the scuttlebutt here re AA not taking the A350 was indeed correct. Shame, as I would have liked to see that plane in that livery.

Life is funny sometimes, AA had the first A350 qualified pilot in the US (remember AA was originally going to be the first US operator, just ahead of DL) and it is looking like he will never get a chance to fly it in commercial service.


Unless of course he changes employers lol
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:26 pm

I think this is more about Airbus 'picking its battles'. With so many 787's already in AA service, the 330neo was always going to be a hard sell. I suspect they played just hard enough to cause Boeing to more deeply discount the 787, and cost them a few points of profit, (if such a term can ever be used regarding the 787).

This deal was always going to be much more important to Boeing than Airbus.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:29 pm

ap305 wrote:
Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.


The A350 is too big and has too much range and capability for many of the A330’s that will be replaced.
 
ap305
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:31 pm

Polot wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Increasing production that high that quickly is not something easily done. You don’t just snap your figures and say I want it to be 16-17 a month and it is done. The A350 has struggled at times with increasing production to just its current level. Airbus is not necessarily the ones who can decide the ultimate production rate. Boeing has a big head start because the 787 has been in production several years longer than the A350.


Which is why I said drop the a330 and focus on the a350.... anything can be done if you are willing to increase the outlay and help suppliers like spirit. The issue has been Airbus getting distracted developing air taxis etc and not focusing on their core business. This where Enders has failed.

Yeah...that is not how it works. The A330 production is hauling completely different tooling and parts (and even some suppliers) than the A350. It’s not like if you just drop the A330 the suppliers can suddenly just make more A350 parts, especially since that means you may also be killing a profitable part of the supplier (if it is something not being regularly made to support the secondhand market).


I never said the tooling or the suppliers are the same... The closing of the line will free up physical space at the factory and I clearly mentioned that Airbus will have to support suppliers in such a move.
Racing, competing, is in my blood. It's part of me, it's part of my life; I've been doing it all my life. And it stands up before anything else- Ayrton Senna
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:33 pm

ap305 wrote:
Polot wrote:
ap305 wrote:
Airbus is talking the same line which Boeing did a few years back.... We were underbid blah blah blah.... If that is the case drop the a330neo, increase the a350 to 16-17 a month, lower the costs and start winning these contests. The writing was on the wall when Boeing increased production and Airbus was playing management survivor island instead of taking measures to fight back.

Increasing production that high that quickly is not something easily done. You don’t just snap your figures and say I want it to be 16-17 a month and it is done. The A350 has struggled at times with increasing production to just its current level. Airbus is not necessarily the ones who can decide the ultimate production rate. Boeing has a big head start because the 787 has been in production several years longer than the A350.


Which is why I said drop the a330 and focus on the a350.... anything can be done if you are willing to increase the outlay and help suppliers like spirit. The issue has been Airbus getting distracted developing air taxis etc and not focusing on their core business. This where Enders has failed.

Yeah...that is not how it works. The A330 production is completely different tooling and parts (and even some suppliers) than the A350. It’s not like if you just drop the A330 the suppliers can suddenly just make more A350 parts, especially since that means you may also be killing a profitable part of the supplier (if it is something not being regularly made to support the secondhand market).

It then also leaves Airbus with a huge gap between the A321 and A359.
 
airzona11
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:37 pm

Strato2 wrote:
bigjku wrote:
If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.


Can as well be Airbus is pricing it's products responsibly vs. the competition.


What does that even mean?
 
george77300
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:16 pm

Basically in short American was deciding between A330neo/B787 to replace the A350 order and they have chosen B787.

So by the sounds of it at American:

No A330neo
No A350
More B787 coming.

Another blow for the A330neo...
 
Sooner787
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Looks like we'll be seeing the 78J in AA livery in the next few years.

IIRC..... AA has 58 options for 787's , enough to replace the entire 77E fleet
and then some :)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:32 pm

bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.

Agree. The possibility is stunning. Lord, we had huge A330neo threads here on a.net. Should they do it at all? Should they wait for RR Advance and/or UltraFan?

Yet, this is why we spend time on a.net: the industry makes so many big-stakes gambles, some are huge wins and some are huge disappointments.

Oh well, time will tell...

bigjku wrote:
“In this case, the competition simply priced their aircraft lower than we were willing to offer,” Airbus said in a statement. “We look forward to the next opportunity to compete with what we know is a superior product.”

Was from the article, not my speculation. I don’t think the A330neo is as cheap as maybe Airbus hoped. The new model engines do a lot to bring its cost upwards. The 787 doesn’t have to beat it, only get close.

The problem for Airbus is (a) Boeing is willing to price 767s "lower than we were willing to offer" and (b) the market is NOT viewing the A330neo as the superior product

The formula was supposed to be a very competitive product at a very competitive price and with superior availability.

It seems that formula is not working as well as hoped.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:45 pm

bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.


This is impossible though. A.net has always told me Boeing never discounts, and that's more of an Airbus thing, obviously.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:00 pm

AA still has 58 options on the 787.

It would be silly to add a second aircraft (or two) with similar capabilities. You would need two (or three) training programs, three pools of pilots, reserves.. just to fly one mission.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:12 pm

Polot wrote:
I think this is a result of AA wanting to simplify their future fleet. The A330neo doesn’t bring enough to the table for them to justify operating it for decades along side the 787s and any 797/A322s they are probably interested in. The A332s will eventually be phased out and the A330 fleet type gone. I expect AA to keep the A350 order for eventual 77E replacement.

Link from Leeham: https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/23/in-ne ... ision-yet/

They say thy have confirmed it from 2 sources and the A350 order is dead. Probably a “soft” A350 contract (or whatever Planesmart calls it) since the order dates back to the A350 mk1.

Very interesting. The article starts with:

Leeham News: In a new, albeit not unexpected, blow to Airbus, Boeing won a hotly contest competition at American Airlines between the A330neo and the 787, two sources say.

For bleep's sake, Scott, hire a bleeping editor!

If you want people to pay for your content, you gotta raise your game!

Also:

Airbus believes Boeing will make any deal to keep Airbus wide-bodies out of the US, but it vows to protect its markets elsewhere in the world.

What the bleep does this mean? Didn't he mean to write 'and'?

crimsonchin wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.

This is impossible though. A.net has always told me Boeing never discounts, and that's more of an Airbus thing, obviously.

Huh? Then explain away viewtopic.php?t=1361025 and similar since it is an entire list of A and B prices that are far below list.

Are you not in your happy place today?

Varsity1 wrote:
AA still has 58 options on the 787.

It would be silly to add a second aircraft (or two) with similar capabilities. You would need two (or three) training programs, three pools of pilots, reserves.. just to fly one mission.

Then DL is mighty silly with A330ceo, A330neo, A359, B767 all in the fleet.
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
Polot wrote:
I think this is a result of AA wanting to simplify their future fleet. The A330neo doesn’t bring enough to the table for them to justify operating it for decades along side the 787s and any 797/A322s they are probably interested in. The A332s will eventually be phased out and the A330 fleet type gone. I expect AA to keep the A350 order for eventual 77E replacement.

Link from Leeham: https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/23/in-ne ... ision-yet/

They say thy have confirmed it from 2 sources and the A350 order is dead. Probably a “soft” A350 contract (or whatever Planesmart calls it) since the order dates back to the A350 mk1.

Very interesting. The article starts with:

Leeham News: In a new, albeit not unexpected, blow to Airbus, Boeing won a hotly contest competition at American Airlines between the A330neo and the 787, two sources say.

For bleep's sake, Scott, hire a bleeping editor!

If you want people to pay for your content, you gotta raise your game!

Also:

Airbus believes Boeing will make any deal to keep Airbus wide-bodies out of the US, but it vows to protect its markets elsewhere in the world.

What the bleep does this mean? Didn't he mean to write 'and'?

crimsonchin wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Once again the interesting part is Airbus saying they were underpriced. The A330neo business case basically demands it be cheaper up front than the 787. Rising oil prices also work against it rather than for it against the 787.

If the 787 can be priced low enough to where Airbus can’t follow with the A330neo it’s a dead duck.

This is impossible though. A.net has always told me Boeing never discounts, and that's more of an Airbus thing, obviously.

Huh? Then explain away viewtopic.php?t=1361025 and similar since it is an entire list of A and B prices that are far below list.

Are you not in your happy place today?

Varsity1 wrote:
AA still has 58 options on the 787.

It would be silly to add a second aircraft (or two) with similar capabilities. You would need two (or three) training programs, three pools of pilots, reserves.. just to fly one mission.

Then DL is mighty silly with A330ceo, A330neo, A359, B767 all in the fleet.


DL is totally different situation since the NW merger brought on the A330 and they became big fans of the aircraft.
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:21 pm

bigjku wrote:
Airbus said in a statement. “We look forward to the next opportunity to compete with what we know is a superior product.


Read that one way and it sounds like airbus is admitting the 787 is a superior product.....!
 
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:32 pm

AA will have all three 787-8/-9/10 it seems, the 787-10 would be a great A330 and 777-200 replacement for most routes under 10 hours. For years AA has been flying 777-200ER on routes not needing all that range, Heathrow, Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires are 7-9 hours flying time from AA hubs at DFW, JFK and MIA. Today AA flies 77W on many EZE, GRU and LHR flights because of the premium demand but hardly taking advantage of the range capability. The 787-10 will match the the range need for such routes with the capacity, lets hope its has those nice Cathay Pacific style J class seats. Nothing worse then new planes with old style seats, look at those United 787-9, old seats poor 787-9 no Polaris yet.
 
sxf24
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:44 pm

Airbus continues to use the press to smear Boeing and raise concerns about 787 profitability and pricing. AA hasn’t made a decision, yet Airbus already knows they lost? Boeing sure doesn’t know they won.
 
QXAS
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:56 pm

AA has a massive fleet of 787s it only makes sense to keep the fleet simple. Less parts, less configurations, more flexibility. This is what makes most sense for AA. I would’ve been very surprised to see AA go A330neo. The current A330 fleet is relatively small and will be on its way out pretty soon. Just as the A350 and A330 are a great fit at DL, the 787 is a great fit at AA.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:01 pm

Is it possible Airbus offers United a steep discount on some 330-800’s now?
SFO
 
flyguy84
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:03 pm

QXAS wrote:
AA has a massive fleet of 787s it only makes sense to keep the fleet simple. Less parts, less configurations, more flexibility. This is what makes most sense for AA. I would’ve been very surprised to see AA go A330neo. The current A330 fleet is relatively small and will be on its way out pretty soon. Just as the A350 and A330 are a great fit at DL, the 787 is a great fit at AA.

You consider 35 frames “massive?”
SFO
 
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Stitch
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:06 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
AA still has 58 options on the 787.


And at the time those options were placed, list for a 787-9 was $250 million compared to over $290 million today for an A330-900. So even with escalation clauses, AA's 787-9 options could be priced tens of millions lower than what Airbus was getting current A330-900 customers to pay.


Varsity1 wrote:
It would be silly to add a second aircraft (or two) with similar capabilities. You would need two (or three) training programs, three pools of pilots, reserves.. just to fly one mission.

Revelation wrote:
Then DL is mighty silly with A330ceo, A330neo, A359, B767 all in the fleet.


Except DL is phasing out the 767 now, will be phasing out the A330ceo soon and cancelled their order for the 787.

So in the end, DL has the A330-900 for up to 10 hour flights and the A350-900 for more than 10 hour flights. Two frames optimized for and used on two different missions.
Last edited by Stitch on Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sxf24
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:14 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
Is it possible Airbus offers United a steep discount on some 330-800’s now?


Airbus is currently trying to sell United A330neos. Residual values and financing are very important to United, which makes this tough.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:15 pm

I wonder how low is Boeing going on the 789 pricing, sure its nice to sell a lot of product, but if it only means cash flow and almost or no real profit, you are working for free, and giving away money. Airbus has done this in the past with the 346 fiasco and some other aircraft that were sold for a song, it seems to me that this time they will not go lower than XXX price, and they prefer to lose the sale than to get into a bloodbath.
I really hope Boeing has made the cost of manufacturing the 787 so cheap that they can underprice airbus and keep a healthy margin..they need a lot of cash to pay all the development of the aircraft ...

Regards

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:16 pm

TheRedBaron wrote:
I wonder how low is Boeing going on the 789 pricing, sure its nice to sell a lot of product, but if it only means cash flow and almost or no real profit, you are working for free, and giving away money.


Both Airbus and Boeing continue to make money on the airframe long after it is delivered to the customer, as do the engine OEMs. Considering many believe CFRP airframes like the 787 and A350 could have usable lives measured in the scores of decades, that is a massive opportunity for spares, PiPs, maintenance contracts, training, upgrades and other ancillaries that could easily generate as much revenue as the original airframe / engine sale at much higher profit margins.
 
QXAS
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:19 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
QXAS wrote:
AA has a massive fleet of 787s it only makes sense to keep the fleet simple. Less parts, less configurations, more flexibility. This is what makes most sense for AA. I would’ve been very surprised to see AA go A330neo. The current A330 fleet is relatively small and will be on its way out pretty soon. Just as the A350 and A330 are a great fit at DL, the 787 is a great fit at AA.

You consider 35 frames “massive?”

For widebody jets outside of the ME3 35 with 7 more on the way is nothing to scoff at. Sure it’s not as big a fleet as ANA. Sure there’s a little bit of hyperbole, but to say that doesn’t exist on A.net would be rather ignorant. Compared to the shrinking 24 frame A330 fleet, an eventual fleet of 42 787 jets is relatively massive.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:25 pm

Stitch wrote:
So in the end, DL has the A330-900 for up to 10 hour flights and the A350-900 for more than 10 hour flights. Two frames optimized for and used on two different missions.


Can you characterize the missions where a 339 has lower fuel burn than a 359?
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:25 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Airbus continues to use the press to smear Boeing and raise concerns about 787 profitability and pricing. AA hasn’t made a decision, yet Airbus already knows they lost? Boeing sure doesn’t know they won.

Who is AA going to go to in that case? Ilyushin?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
QXAS
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:27 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Airbus continues to use the press to smear Boeing and raise concerns about 787 profitability and pricing. AA hasn’t made a decision, yet Airbus already knows they lost? Boeing sure doesn’t know they won.

Who is AA going to go to in that case? Ilyushin?

Western launch customer for C929? :duck:
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
RobertPhoenix
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:29 pm

I'm sure someone else can develop more accurate numbers, but here is how I see the outstanding orders, the production rate, and the years of backlog for these aircraft (based on Wikipedia)

By the end of this year assuming no significant new orders

787 has a backlog of 518 planes, a production rate of 14 over 12 months, resulting in 3.1 years of backlog
A330neo has a backlog of 214 planes, a production rate of 6 over 11 months, resulting in 3.2 years of backlog
A350 has a backlog of 620 planes, a production rate of 12 over 11 months, resulting in 4.7 years of backlog

If I am anywhere near correct, it would indicate that Boeing is going to be more aggressive at this moment.

Maybe a little more aggressive considering the political situation, and Boeing more at risk with both China and Iran.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Bloomberg: Airbus A330 Neo Dropped From American Airlines Wide-Body Contest

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:32 pm

Polot wrote:
I think this is a result of AA wanting to simplify their future fleet. The A330neo doesn’t bring enough to the table for them to justify operating it for decades along side the 787s and any 797/A322s they are probably interested in. The A332s will eventually be phased out and the A330 fleet type gone. I expect AA to keep the A350 order for eventual 77E replacement.

Link from Leeham: https://leehamnews.com/2018/03/23/in-ne ... ision-yet/

They say thy have confirmed it from 2 sources and the A350 order is dead. Probably a “soft” A350 contract (or whatever Planesmart calls it) since the order dates back to the A350 mk1.


Flight Global, citing reports from Bloomberg and Reuters, confirms the AA A350 order is cancelled, with AA opting for the B789:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-447035/
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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