hrhf1
Topic Author
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747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:49 am

Having little knowledge of military aircraft, I was wondering if anybody knew much about the 747's history in that field, or lack thereof. While we're at it, does the A380 have any hope for military conversion? Perhaps painted military grey it can become known as the 'sperm whale". :P
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:53 am

Other than the CRAF airplanes or the IAF, name what country uses 747's for their military.

[Edited 2005-12-01 21:54:28]
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 1):
Other than the CRAF airplanes or the IAF, name what country uses 747's for their military.

Eeehhh... The US Air Force?

E-4B
VC-25
YA-1L (or something, it's the B747-400F Airborne Laser)

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
alphaomega
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:06 am

The only mission the 747 is suited for is troop transport, and even then only when used as part of the Civil Air Reserve Fleet. Using it for anything else and you might as well paint a bullseye on the side of it. And as for the A380...talk about a target...
 
chris133
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:13 am

Why is it only suited for troop transport. Have you looked at the C-5 by any chance? It is bigger than a 744 and does a lot more than troop transport. The pilots of the C-5 tend to fly it like its a fighter jet. I used to see that why I was flying out of Dover. So the 744 can do a lot more if needed.
 
alphaomega
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 2):
E-4B
VC-25
YA-1L (or something, it's the B747-400F Airborne Laser)

Oops...good call.

Although I doubt someone would be able to take a shot at the E-4B or Air Force 1...

Other than that I think a military 747 would not be feasible except as I previously stated.
 
alphaomega
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:16 am

Good point...the C-5 in Iraq was hit by a sam and still managed to pull off going around the traffic pattern. What other mission could the 747 do besides troop transport? Maybe use the freighter version for something but I doubt it could hold an M-1 like the C-5.
 
Cadet57
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:22 am

Yup the US military loves 747's thou they are all on 747-200 beds and not -400's which i always found odd, but then again, i love the classic look to one  Smile


But on the case of a380's i dont think the us mil will ever use em, we got a big ol gal we like to call galaxy:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/Justin82287/My%20aircraft%20shots/pics002.jpg

she may be old, have a big mouth, but i love her!
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
joness0154
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:23 am

One of the big reasons you wont see it hauling any military cargo is that they aren't as 'rugged' as a C5/C17/C130/C141, etc.

First off, 99% of all military front line cargo A/C are high wing designs for unimproved field operations, etc. Keeps the engines protected, and shortens the landing distance compared to a low wing design (ground effect).

The 747 and A380 would just not be as rugged as needed.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
wjcandee
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 8):
One of the big reasons you wont see it hauling any military cargo

The 747 hauls an enormous amount of US military cargo. However, it's all done by commercial carriers under contract. The division of labor is that the specialized military aircraft go to the places that military aircraft are needed (unimproved, dangerous, etc.), and haul stuff that won't go in a 747, for various reasons. They also do some of their own basic cargo movement. However, it is cheaper for lots of cargo to move commercially, rather than in-house, and it does. On 747s.

Hope this helps.
 
joness0154
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:33 am

I'm sorry, I meant hauling cargo in the role of the C5/C17/C130, etc. Hope that clears things up.
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
alphaomega
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:34 am

Ah yes....what a beautiful pic of fat albert.
 
hrhf1
Topic Author
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:46 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
But on the case of a380's i dont think the us mil will ever use em

Oh, I wasn't suggesting the US would EVER consider the A380 for anything defense oriented, but perhaps some of our European friends dream of A380's hauling their lads and or equipment to and fro.

Is the A380 Cargo going to be a front loader, or does the cockpit position prevent that?
 
redflyer
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:55 am

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 12):
but perhaps some of our European friends dream of A380's hauling their lads and or equipment to and fro.

In about 20 years time, when there's more of them flying around (hopefully) and the older airframes are no longer at the top of the airline food chain, yes, I could see some being impressed into service to haul personnel to or from some global hotspot.

While not an airplane, a good example was the Brits using the QE2 for troop transport purposes during the Falklands/Malvinas war of 1982. I suppose the same could happen with a 380 in a similar situation where lots of troops need to be transported quickly.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting Hrhf1 (Thread starter):
does the A380 have any hope for military conversion?

It has hopes indeed.

Back in April, Air&Cosmos revealed the study of an A380 MRTB (MultiRole Transport Bombardier). Was quite impressive actually.

If you want more details, I can re-read the articles and summarize it here.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 14):
If you want more details, I can re-read the articles and summarize it here.

I'm very interested... So get to work!  Wink Thanks in advance!

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Boogyjay
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 15):
I'm very interested... So get to work!

Well before girlfriend comes back home. A quick review is (following the article):

- France Air Force has decided on getting it.
- Secretly prepared by Airbus, from the A388F
- France AF needs a non-furtive very long range bombardier, capable of launching precision weapons and/or long ramge cruise missiles.
- will be able to lift 24 to 64 Scalp/StormShadow
- possibility of transforming it to a cargo airplane in less than 24h carrying 150t over 10000km or 100t over more than 16000km.

Transporter:
- has an autonomous loading system: CLS (Cargo Loading System) for aprons without equipments.
- 2 decks can be equiped/unequiped with seats on pallets thanks to the side cargo doors.
- carries 600 soldiers with bags and weapons over 14800km.
- New to me: an option is to propose the A380-800ER (  eyepopping  !!! ) modification which is to add fuel tanks in the central wingbox: 310,000l -> 370,000l of fuel hence range of 16200km!!!

Bombardier:
- rotating barrels (? not sure about the english word ?) will be put in the cargo holds.
- same launch system as in the B-52 and B-1B.
- 70cm diameter cylinder in composite carbon/carbon on which the Scalp/StormShadow are hanged.
- missiles launchable every 4s.
- 1st 6xScalp-EG (5.1m, 1300kg) will be mounted on each rotating barrel => overall 5.5m 8.3t.
- then in 2010-2011, the Scalp Naval will be adapted to the Scalp-TLP (very long range, 1000km). This one will be 6.5m long, 1500kg but now (round missile instead of squared) 8x Scalp mounted by rotating barrel =>12.6t

- the cargo holds are wide enough (4.18m) to hold 2 barrels side-by-side.
- so 8 barrels per airplane is technically possible.
- so first 4x or 8x 8.3t = 33t or 66t then 4x or 8x 12.6t = 50t or 100t.
- Problems with 8 barrels: reinforcements to the cargo bay and heavy modifications to the airplane structure would be needed => expensive, the militaries have not decided yet.

- Each cargo bay (front and aft) will be divided into 2x 7m long sections.
- 7m sliding doors to be designed.
- airplane has to depressurize to launch missiles. It has been decided to move the pressure bulkhead afterward (5m after the stairs) hence the "piloting" crew will not endure the depressurization whereas the mission crew will be subject to it.

- Lots of other stuffs are discussed e.g. the multiple protection systems, other usefulnesses (link with satellites, command centre, ...) + financial compromise between the A380-MRTB, the submarines and the Rafale.
- Probably 100 Rafales will not be ordered (AF will have 130 instead of 230).
- 10x A380-MRTB would be ordered.

I have gone through ~ half of the article. Maybe more to come if I have the time later (+ a drawing of the beast).

Good reading.
 
Areopagus
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:45 pm

Maybe we could convert the Exxon Valdez so it could also serve as a cruise ship and PT boat.
 
Venus6971
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:54 pm

I seen alot of cargo delivered at PSAB by more 747's than C-5's, 747 can be turned quicker and also carry roll on roll off stuff. besides has anybody on the net see a C-5 land in the mud recently ( on purpose), will it ever. No a 747 can't carry a M-1 Abrams but a C-5 can only carry one, thats why we have the U.S. Navy.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
PhilSquares
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:30 pm

Apparently, everyone has forgotten the roots of the 747 were the competition with Lockheed for the C5.

The 747 was Boeing's entry into the competition and they lost! The standard 744F freighter could do a much better job than the C5, however the biggest stumbling block is there is no "roll on-roll off" capability.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting Alphaomega (Reply 5):
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 2):
E-4B
VC-25
YA-1L (or something, it's the B747-400F Airborne Laser)

Oops...good call.

Although I doubt someone would be able to take a shot at the E-4B or Air Force 1...

Other than that I think a military 747 would not be feasible except as I previously stated.

The Imperial Iranian Air Force (IIAF) still flys 11 (of the original 12) KC-747-200Fs, also.

Quoting Alphaomega (Reply 3):
The only mission the 747 is suited for is troop transport, and even then only when used as part of the Civil Air Reserve Fleet. Using it for anything else and you might as well paint a bullseye on the side of it. And as for the A380...talk about a target...



Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 16):
- France Air Force has decided on getting it.
- Secretly prepared by Airbus, from the A388F
- France AF needs a non-furtive very long range bombardier, capable of launching precision weapons and/or long ramge cruise missiles.
- will be able to lift 24 to 64 Scalp/StormShadow
- possibility of transforming it to a cargo airplane in less than 24h carrying 150t over 10000km or 100t over more than 16000km.

Back just after the Carter Administration cancelled the B-1A program, SAC seriously look at B-747Fs as cruse missile carriers, in a stand off role in the late 1970s. The B-747F was found capabile of carrying more than 200 ALCMs, dropping them out the rear/lower portion of the airplane, through some type of convayor system.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):
The standard 744F freighter could do a much better job than the C5, however the biggest stumbling block is there is no "roll on-roll off" capability.

The B-747F is row-row capably through the swing open nose door. Also, in the early 1990s, Boeing proposed selling USAF some B-747-400Fs, in place of the, then, MD C-17A. The B-747-400F would have cost a lot less than the C-17A did.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:44 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
The B-747F is row-row capably through the swing open nose door. Also, in the early 1990s, Boeing proposed selling USAF some B-747-400Fs, in place of the, then, MD C-17A. The B-747-400F would have cost a lot less than the C-17A did.

No it really isn't. Vehicles still have to be put on a loader, where on the C5 they can drive right on. That is the big issue with the 747F as a cargo plane, there is too much associated ground equipment that has to be used to load/unload.

[Edited 2005-12-05 04:45:20]
Fly fast, live slow
 
dw747400
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:36 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 19):

The 747 was Boeing's entry into the competition and they lost! T

It is important to remember that the CX-HLS aircraft Boeing proposed was significantly different from today's 747--IIRC, it looked like a big(er) C-5.

The Boeing entry was judged to be the best in terms of technical merits, but Lockheed offered the planes at a price Boeing was not willing to match.

Rumor has it Boeing thought they had the contract "in the bag" up until the announcement, even with their higher price.

-edit for typo-

[Edited 2005-12-05 06:38:01]
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vzlet
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:46 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
The Imperial Iranian Air Force (IIAF) still flys 11 (of the original 12) KC-747-200Fs, also.

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lehpron
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:58 pm

I remember seeing an article in a text book, that showed the advancements of the American military that went from dozens of bombers and fighters escorts in WW2 down to two F-16's and a B-2.

Theoretically, there is no point for troops in a modern war...but we currently have our people in the hundreds of thousands in Iraq, but supposedly for different reasons than simply war. Some are doing things they were never taught, some are forced to show compassion...

If this kind of war was more than likely in the future (where we free people from their oppressors then attempt to teach them what we believe to be the ways of a free life) then yes a massive troop carrier fleet is needed. But, I doubt all those troops got there at once, maybe medium aircraft at higher frequencies makes more sense.

I don't mean to drag the P2P/H2H arguement here, but there are priorities - these aren't pax going for vacation or business, these are soliders going and staying for a really long time. How they get there is not important. That they do their job and come the hell home is, I certainly wish them well.

War is already unnecessary, we should not be hoping for large A380 troop carriers; just get it over with to teach them a lesson then come home.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
aerlinguscargo
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RE: 747 Military Usage - Any Hope For A380?

Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:05 am

Quoting Hrhf1 (Reply 12):
Is the A380 Cargo going to be a front loader, or does the cockpit position prevent that?

The A380 will load using a side door.

DH

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