Shocked to wake up this morning to see this on the news. Any of our Italian members affected?? My thoughts are with the Italian people .

At least 27 people are dead and dozens are missing in an earthquake which has flattened homes in central Italy.

Thousands of people have been left homeless, many have been injured and the death toll is expected to rise.

The quake, of a 6.3 magnitude, struck 53 miles northeast of Rome.

The old town of L'Aquila, east of Rome in the mountainous Abruzzo region, was badly affected, with many buildings in the centre collapsing.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wor..._Magnitude_Quake_In_Abruzzo_Region

The Minister of Interior has just said that there at least 70 people dead.

According to Reuters, at least 50,000 people homeless.

Some photos:
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gal...erie/cronaca/primi-soccorsi/1.html
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05/gallerie/cronaca/soccorsi-2/1.html

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 1): The Minister of Interior has just said that there at least 70 people dead. According to Reuters, at least 50,000 people homeless

It seems there are still areas cut off in remote towns and villages. Hopefully all EU countries will arrange an emergency response unit to provide for people in need.

BBC recently informed at least quake killed 90 people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7985958.stm



RIP all victims.

Fatmir

The town was severly damaged 306 years ago in a earthquake. Swedish media claim +100
dead and 1500 injured.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 5): The town was severly damaged 306 years ago in a earthquake. Swedish media claim +100 dead and 1500 injured.

Yes , Also the death toll is expected to climb. As always with these things people are trapped and cut off. Its a nightmare. We have had bad earthquakes in Greece over the years and its terrifying.

RIP to all the victims.

Has been Rome affected by this quake?

Swedish media interview a Swedish lady in Rome and her house shaked during the earthquake.

Seem like a local seismologists was forced to silence after warnings of this earthquake
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-in-italy-earthquake-1663547.html
I wonder if new laws are needed in Italy for banning people to do so again?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8): Seem like a local seismologists was forced to silence after warnings of this earthquake http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-in-italy-earthquake-1663547.html I wonder if new laws are needed in Italy for banning people to do so again?

He wasn't forced to silence, some days ago he told that he was able to forecast earthquake studying radon (a gas) and that there was the possibility of having a major hearthquake in some days. He was sued for alarming the people without reason ("procurato allarme" in Italian).
He's a researcher and hasn't a degree.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 9): He was sued for alarming the people without reason ("procurato allarme" in Italian).

So can he sue them back now ??

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10): So can he sue them back now ??

No (the person who sued him didn't alarm anyone), but I suppose the charge will be revoked.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 11): but I suppose the charge will be revoked.

Oh ok , it does seem to be too much of a coincidence.

RIP victime in L'Aquila. This was a very powerful earthquake at 6.4 on the Richter scale.
Another beautiful historic place in Italy is now written off the map.

Strangely enough we did not feel a thing down here quite near to the Italian border.  

L'Aquila. The Eagle has fallen.

[Edited 2009-04-06 12:37:32]

Unfortunately the number of victims is increasing. According to ANSA news agency the death toll had reached 150.

Fatmir

This is a very serious earthquake, Fatmir, in a highly populated area so I will not be surprised if the death toll is higher by the day. This is terribly sad...

Last news: 180 people dead, 35 not yet found, 1,500 injured and 50,000-70,000 homeless.

Town was hit by earthquake 306 years ago that almost flattened the town, 1461 it was also
flattened, 242 years before. Guess they have to rebuild the town with latest earthquake protective technology?

Kurils was hit harder though this morning, 7 on the richterscale, no tsunami expected.

A powerful earthquake struck central Italy early on Monday, killing 179 people, making up to 50,000 homeless and flattening entire medieval towns while residents slept. Greek student Vassilis Koufolias who was trapped in the rubbles of the building in a block of flats near the municipal park of the city, was found dead today by rescue crews. At the same time, after co ordinate actions initiated by the Greek Embassy in Rome, Aegean and Olympic flights as well as ferries transferred 160 Greek students from the area who returned in Athens safe. Greek student Vassilis Koufolias who was trapped in the rubbles of the building in a block of flats near the municipal park of the city, was found dead today by rescue crews.

http://news.ert.gr/en/20981-ores-agonias-stin-l-akouila.htm

This is really sad news. My thoughts and prayers.

Jeremy Carlisle

Abruzzo Earthquake – 235 Dead and 15 Missing. Drama of the Displaced.

L’AQUILA – The toll is rising. Two hundred and thirty five people are now known to have died in the earthquake that ravaged Abruzzo on Sunday night. Forty of the victims have yet to be identified. Thirty-four people are missing and 1,500 injured. There are 17,000 displaced persons in total, of whom 10,000 are in L’Aquila and 7,210 in the province. The figures were supplied by civil defence sources.

RACE AGAINST TIME – Yet again for rescue workers, it is a race against time. As the hours tick by, hopes of finding more survivors under the rubble are fading. So far, more than 100 people have been pulled from the wreckage. Digging continued without interruption through the night at L’Aquila, and in neighbouring municipalities, despite the dozens of tremors that punctuated the darkness. The most violent, which came at 1.15 am, registered 4.8 on the Richter scale. At 2 am, twenty-three hours after the earthquake hit L’Aquila, Marta, a 24-year-old student from the province of Teramo, was rescued from the rubble. The woman, who was recovered by mountain rescue cavers, owes her life to a stroke of luck. She was in bed when the four-storey building where she lives crumbled to the ground. Falling reinforced concrete beams stopped just a few centimetres from her body. The mayor of L’Aquila, Massimo Cialente, who visited the devastated student residence in Via XX Settembre, said that there could be five more people under the rubble.

ONNA – Rescue work also continued at Onna, the village that is no more. In the early hours, firefighters pulled two bodies from rubble at Onna, just outside L’Aquila and one of the sites worst hit by the earthquake. This brought the number of victims to 39 in a village of 250 residents. The toll is unlikely to rise further. Two people who were missing yesterday evening turned out to have left the village unbeknown to the rest of the villagers. This morning, firefighters will continue their search with advice from locals to ascertain whether anyone else is trapped under the rubble, although there seems to be little likelihood of this. Once this stage of operations is over, the extent of damage to structures will have to be calculated. Early estimates suggest that practically all the homes in the area are unsafe. At least 60-70% collapsed completely while the rest have suffered severe damage.

NIGHT OF THE SURVIVORS – It was a very cold night in the tents and many survivors opted to spend the night in their cars. Some were transferred to hotels on the coast. But for many of those who lost their homes, shelter had to be found elsewhere, in vehicles or under the only tensile structure, where survivors bedded down with blankets among the benches and tables. A further 250 beds were available in tents erected on the sports ground at Paganica but these were not enough to accommodate all the survivors from a village where half of the residents are homeless. For the first night, priority went to children and the elderly, others having to sleep in cars or on coaches belonging to the regional transport company. During the night, more lorries arrived with civil defence tents, which will increase the capacity of the camps at Paganica and elsewhere. Thanks to ANA, the Alpini troops association, some 1,400 meals were served from 8 pm to midnight. Today, 3,000 more tents are on their way for survivors at L’Aquila and, as the mayor confirmed, “there is always the option of moving to the coast, where 5,000 beds have been requisitioned” in various hotels. Mayor Cialente expressed the hope that “residents can have a better night than the one that is just over. Many people spent the night in their cars and only some were in the tents that have already been erected”. The mayor was among those who slept in their cars.

5,100 RESCUERS – According to civil protection headquarters, 5,100 workers from the national rescue and assistance service are currently involved, in addition to civil protection staff and volunteers from several regions, firefighters, the Red Cross, mountain rescue and the police. The figure is supplemented by more than 1,300 armed services personnel, 300 of whom, including meteorological monitoring staff, are providing support off-site.

English translation by Giles Watson

Latest news: 272 dead.

Very sad and RIP to those who died!

What I can´t believe is that Berlusconi has not accepted any help from any other country.

What is more shocking was his comment where he said to those who have to sleep in tents that it is like going camping. Unbelievable stupid! I just saw it on TV....

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 21): Abruzzo Earthquake – 235 Dead and 15 Missing. Drama of the Displaced. L’AQUILA – The toll is rising. Two hundred and thirty five people are now known to have died in the earthquake that ravaged Abruzzo on Sunday night. Forty of the victims have yet to be identified. Thirty-four people are missing and 1,500 injured. There are 17,000 displaced persons in total, of whom 10,000 are in L’Aquila and 7,210 in the province. The figures were supplied by civil defence sources.

I didnt realise how close it was to Chieti and Pescara. I have been there on holidays. Alot of the buildings could not stand up to such a strong earthquake.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 23): Very sad and RIP to those who died! What I can´t believe is that Berlusconi has not accepted any help from any other country. What is more shocking was his comment where he said to those who have to sleep in tents that it is like going camping. Unbelievable stupid! I just saw it on TV....

Yes, he got egg on his face, Israel sent in dog teams to Turkey in the aftermath of an earthquake.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 23): What I can´t believe is that Berlusconi has not accepted any help from any other country.

The Italian "Protezione Civile" (civil defence) has enough resources to manage the situation (it's one of the best in the world with a great experience about earthquakes) and rescuers from all Italy are in that region. I don't know how much other countries could have helped Italy.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter): L'Aquila, east of Rome in the mountainous Abruzzo region

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But the title of this thread is misleading as L'Aquila is NOT "near Rome"

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 13): Another beautiful historic place in Italy is now written off the map.

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Not so swift ! Many historic places in the Mediterranean, still being attractive now, has become victim to an earthquake. Look at Lisbon (not really on the Med, I admit), which was most badly hit by the BIG earthquake of Lisbon but then restored to glory by the Marquis de Pombal.
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I would not count out L'Aquila yet
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or just look at the German cities which into the 1950ies were at least partially in rubbles, Munich being a depressing place for visitors as late as in 1958 and even in 1968 still having many signs of past destruction, Frankfurt having its downtown-centre only restored in the late 1980ies. "written off the map" therefore is a foregone conclusion.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 27): But the title of this thread is misleading as L'Aquila is NOT "near Rome"

At the time when it was breaking on Sky news it said ''Earthquake in Rome'' Thus the reasoning in the thread title. Hope this clears that up.  

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 9): He's a researcher and hasn't a degree.

If he hasn't a degree, then he isn't a researcher. He's a hobbyist, an amateur.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12): Oh ok , it does seem to be too much of a coincidence.

It is a coincidence and very irresponsible of him to start trying to predict something scientists cannot predict.
Research into using radon release before earthquakes is not new and not something he can claim to having discovered. Many studies have not been able to show a clear relation between the two yet. Radon release also occurs after rainfall, for example.

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 29): He's a researcher and hasn't a degree. - If he hasn't a degree, then he isn't a researcher. He's a hobbyist, an amateur.

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this conclusion is wrong. You can be a professional researcher into whatever without any kind of academic degree. Doing research in fact in uncountable laboratories is done by lab-people WITHOUT degrees. And lots of research into many fields is done by both professionals AND amateurs in a very thorough way, and many amateurs are successful.
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Whether his theories make sense or not is another aspect. And whether it makes sense to pass out alarms without serious evidence another one. Too many "empty" alarms will in the end lead people to ignore any serious alarm later on.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 26): I don't know how much other countries could have helped Italy.

Most western European countries, the US and Canada, aswell as Japan have similar units. In Germany this would e.g. be the Technisches Hilfswerk (Technical Aid service), the disaster control organisation of the federal government. This organisation has a special heavy rescue company, which is based near FRA and has all it's equipment prepacked for shipping by air.
I have been in this organisation for almost 20 years (as a volunteer, as about 95% of the organisation members are) and locating and digging out people from collapsed buildings was exactly the job we got trained in (plus the infrastructure units, who were repairing essential infrastructure, like water and electricity supllies as well as sewage systems to prevent diseases). Then there exist welltrained private organisations, like the Red Cross, the Order of Malta or the St. John's Ambulance service, who also provide rescuestaff as well as units specialised in providing emergency shelter and food / water supply for those, who lost their homes.

I can thell from my own experience that one heavy rescue platoon will be quite busy to cover one collapsed larger building, a company will be able to clear maybe one city block in an acceptable time to recover survivors.
The clock starts ticking when the earthquake hits. During the first 24 hrs there is still a rwasonable chance to rescue people alive, afterwards the probability of survival is shrinking rapidly.
This means that you need to get a maximum amount of OUTSIDE manpower in ASAP.
The local people will be too shellshocked to be able to help themselves and most of the rescue work is manual work.
You can't use heavy machinery because of the danger of crushing survivors. Diggers and excavators can only be used during the late stages, when the chance of finding survivors is so low that you only expect to find dead bodies, which need to be recovered for hygienic reasons.
The only heavy machine you can use (very carefully) is a crane to lift heavy pieces of masonry.

So I don't understand the reluctance and national pride, which prevents foreign help. Most Western European civil defense units have been working together for a long time, since the cold war, due to NATO connections (the same rescue techniques are used in bombed cities), at least at staff level.

Some years after an earth quake in Turkey, a government minister refused to accept offered help from Greece. He almost got lynched by his own population, who were in desperate need to get in rescue professiionals. AFAIK he lost his office.

Jan

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30): this conclusion is wrong. You can be a professional researcher into whatever without any kind of academic degree. Doing research in fact in uncountable laboratories is done by lab-people WITHOUT degrees. And lots of research into many fields is done by both professionals AND amateurs in a very thorough way, and many amateurs are successful.

Lab people (called analysts, at least in the Netherlands) studied chemistry, physics, etc. at a professional school and are NOT researchers. They perform an important part of the research work (more often than not, they actually assist graduate students in their experiments), but they do not come up with any interpretation and discussion of the results produced in the lab, which is the fundamental part of research.

The only way you can be a (professional) researcher is: to demonstrate your ability to perform independent research of high quality through the completion of a PhD in the area of your choice AND to actually perform research and submit it to peer-reviewed journals. Ideally, you should also attend congresses, workshops, symposiums and other knowledge-developing meetings/courses where you make sure you keep up with what others are doing and learn new things.

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 29): If he hasn't a degree, then he isn't a researcher. He's a hobbyist, an amateur.

The National Institute for Astrophysics in a press release wrote that Mr Giuliani is a technical collaborator without degree and that the researches about earthquakes are made by Giuliani for personal purposes out of work-hours.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31): So I don't understand the reluctance and national pride, which prevents foreign help.

I don't think it's national pride, it's just the problem of coordinating all those rescuers.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31): Some years after an earth quake in Turkey

Sorry, but I don't think that you can compare the civil defence of Italy and Turkey (with all respect for Turkey).

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31): So I don't understand the reluctance and national pride, which prevents foreign help. I don't think it's national pride, it's just the problem of coordinating all those rescuers. Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31): Some years after an earth quake in Turkey Sorry, but I don't think that you can compare the civil defence of Italy and Turkey (with all respect for Turkey).

You don't get it? It is all about getting as much manpower on the ground within the first crucial three days as possible.
And as I said, the various civil defense organisations within NATO have been cooperating at least since the 1960s. There have been (or at least should have been) regular international exercises at least on staff level, exactly to improve coordination.
I don't denigrate the individual members of the Italian civil defense, theyare as good as they come, but if there is an inability to coordinate a major rescue efford for a larger disaster area, this means that somebody high up f*cked up. especially in acountryas prone to earth quakes and vulcanic eruptions as Italy. What will happen when Mt. vesuvio starts acting up again? How will they run the evacuation of Napoli and the surrounding region?

I understand thaough that after the end of cold war civil defense budgets Europe wide have been cut and unit strengths reduced (this also happened in my country and the unit I was a member of), but currently the process is in reversal, since even the politicians realised that people who are trained to help during large scale bomb attacks are also very usefull during peacetime disasters.

Jan

[Edited 2009-04-10 08:57:49]

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): The National Institute for Astrophysics in a press release wrote that Mr Giuliani is a technical collaborator without degree and that the researches about earthquakes are made by Giuliani for personal purposes out of work-hours.

So much for their credibility... the study of earthquakes, when serious, is done by geophysicists not astrophysicists. Anyway...

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 29): If he hasn't a degree, then he isn't a researcher. He's a hobbyist, an amateur. The National Institute for Astrophysics in a press release wrote that Mr Giuliani is a technical collaborator without degree and that the researches about earthquakes are made by Giuliani for personal purposes out of work-hours. Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31): So I don't understand the reluctance and national pride, which prevents foreign help. I don't think it's national pride, it's just the problem of coordinating all those rescuers.

Sure, so Turkey is a much better organizer than Italy?

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 35): So much for their credibility... the study of earthquakes, when serious, is done by geophysicists not astrophysicists.

It's obvious.

In the press release, they wrote:

"l’Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica ha come missione e scopo lo studio dei fenomeni che avvengono nello spazio e nell’universo e non di terremoti o altri fenomeni legati alla geofisica"

roughly translated: "the National Institute of Astrophysics studies phenomena happening in the space and in the universe, not earthquakes and phenomena related to geophysics".

http://www.inaf.it/ufficio-stampa/co...rremoto-abruzzo/terremoto-abruzzo/

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36): Sure, so Turkey is a much better organizer than Italy?

I wrote the opposite.

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 32): The only way you can be a (professional) researcher

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No, you can for instance do journalist research into historical and political affairs or research into civil aviation matters on a professional basis, without an academic degreee. And a laboratory-assistant who does research IS a researcher. "Researcher" is a function and neither a rank nor an honorary title of sorts.
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Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): The National Institute for Astrophysics in a press release wrote that Mr Giuliani is a technical collaborator without degree and that the researches about earthquakes are made by Giuliani for personal purposes out of work-hours.

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I think that the point in question neither is the seriousness of his research nor whether it is serious research nor his results, but the way he goes into the public.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): I don't think that you can compare the civil defence of Italy and Turkey

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I think you CAN do so indeed. As the question is NOT the "civil defence" capabilities as such but on one side the question about specialists for earthquakes and thelike and on the other side the relevant forces at hand when it matters. Look at Switzerland. Swiss specialists help out around the globe in case of such disasters, but would Switzerland become struck by such a disaster (not really been the case for centuries) there simply would not be enough relevant capacity and so it then would be Switzerland in need of assistance from abroad.

Did I hear that Berlusconi was going to open up some of his luxury homes to the victims ?? Or was it just a false story?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 39): Did I hear that Berlusconi was going to open up some of his luxury homes to the victims ?? Or was it just a false story?

He really said that.

A very sad day today and this is the photo that I will remember. A childs coffin on top of their parents coffin.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34): You don't get it? It is all about getting as much manpower on the ground within the first crucial three days as possible.

There were 2,436 firefighters!
I hope you don't think the civil defence refused foreign help to feed its ego!

Quoting Jonjonnl (Reply 35): Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 33): The National Institute for Astrophysics in a press release wrote that Mr Giuliani is a technical collaborator without degree and that the researches about earthquakes are made by Giuliani for personal purposes out of work-hours. So much for their credibility... the study of earthquakes, when serious, is done by geophysicists not astrophysicists. Anyway...

Alfred Wegener, who developed the today widely accepted theory of continental drift back in the 1920s, was a meteorologist, not a geologist. Thiswas the main reason why his theories were disputed for so long, but today they have been proven valid and continental drift is one of the main reasons of earthquakes.

Quoting Janmnastami (Reply 42): There were 2,436 firefighters!

So how big is the affected area? One platoon (about 30 men) will take at least a day to clear one collapsedapartment building.
You'll need additional manpower to provide access to the affected areas, like clearing landslides and other blockages. You'll need to build emergency bridging (though army engineers can do a lot of such work) over rivers to replace collapsed bridges simply to get the rescuers to where they are needed.
You'll need to set up camps for displaced persons and to provide for food, drinking water and shelter. You'll need to restore emergency electricity lines.
One medium sized town can easily use up these 2.500 firefighters alone.
Remember, you only have a very narrow time window to recover survivors, afterwards all you do is to dig out dead bodies.
Remember, you can't use heavy machines for digging out the injured people. Most of the work has to be done with hand tools and this takes time AND personel.

This is the stuff I got trained in during the 1980s-1990s.

Jan