Moderators: richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2524
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:27 pm

Yet more evidence that the media have gotten it wrong and are demonising this man.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:49 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:32 am

Consumers' associations and Costa Cruises have reached an agreement. Costa will refund to each passenger 3,000 euro for the cost of the cruise and 11,000 euro as compensation. The agreement obviously excludes people who have had physical damages. A family of four members (two adults and two children) will receive in total more than 50,000 euro.
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2524
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:31 am

I think that's fair and not overly excessive. I expect some to sue for more though.
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14907
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:41 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 51):
Consumers' associations and Costa Cruises have reached an agreement. Costa will refund to each passenger 3,000 euro for the cost of the cruise and 11,000 euro as compensation. The agreement obviously excludes people who have had physical damages. A family of four members (two adults and two children) will receive in total more than 50,000 euro.

Of course those who were seriously injured and the families of those who died who will still seek much greater compensation in the courts and should do so. Offering this money could curb many lawsuits, but I bet this won't be enough for some who only were scared, especially the attorneys and greedy persons looking for a lottery jackpot, saying they were psychologically 'damaged'.
As to the actions of the crew and especially the captain, there are still too many questions as to their behavior, most importantly their decision to cruise so close to the shoreline of the island and the allegations of abandonment well before many pax were off the ship.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 51):
Consumers' associations and Costa Cruises have reached an agreement.

Thats fair enough .

Quoting garpd (Reply 52):
I expect some to sue for more though.

I guess its for them to decide and then a judge to decide.
 
777
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:21 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:11 pm

Huge emphasis today on the Italian press about a shocking article wrote on the German magazine Der Spiegel where the journalist says something like "could you even imagine a similar behaviour from a German or a English captain?" and again "it's not clear in what measure the Italians are a race".

While the Der Spiegel article seems to be the receptacle of the anti Italian cliché at its worst, an Italian newspaper reacted to that writing in large letters in its first page: "we have Schettino, you have Auschwitz"....

Two example of stupidity in just one shot! Congrats to both!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14907
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:01 pm

Here is an article that discusses that this may be the or one of the largest insurance losses as to shipping as well as about the possible salvage operations:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...-concordia-disaster_n_1236029.html

Some recent posters have noted the sensationalist and in some cases the disturbing commentary in the media of this terrible event. Nothing will be helped by using hateful and derogatory terms as to the people alleged to be involved in this disaster and reacting to it. A ship has been lost, at least 16 people dead, scores injured, careers ruined and perhaps $1 Billion in insurance losses as well as possible environmental damage. We need the media to do it's job to cover this event, not use it to hurt people to boost hits and circulation.
 
BR076
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 4:10 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:53 pm

"
[

Quoting 777 (Reply 55):
an Italian newspaper reacted to that writing in large letters in its first page: "we have Schettino, you have Auschwitz"....

Wow, that is not a very tasteful comparison.
ú
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2573
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting 777 (Reply 55):
Huge emphasis today on the Italian press about a shocking article wrote on the German magazine Der Spiegel where the journalist says something like "could you even imagine a similar behaviour from a German or a English captain?" and again "it's not clear in what measure the Italians are a race".

Coming from Der Spiegel that doesn't surprise me. They don't exactly have a great reputation when it comes to reporting aviation incidents either.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
zanl188
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting EY460 (Reply 46):
However, engine spaces run throughout most of the bottom of the ship (apart from engines, generators, and propulsion motors there are also compressors for cold rooms and air conditioning system, pumps and treatment systems for fresh water and waste water, stabilisers controls, etc) and there are also engine spaces around the ship on the upper decks (incinerator for garbage, electrical substations, air conditioning substations, engine casing) so it's possible that nobody was in the area affected by the collision.

Did Costa Concordia have propulsion pods? I understand one of the advantages of the pods is that engines/generators can be placed in non-traditional locations (IIRC some ships have aux. propulsion engines on the upper or weather decks).
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 59):
Did Costa Concordia have propulsion pods? I understand one of the advantages of the pods is that engines/generators can be placed in non-traditional locations (IIRC some ships have aux. propulsion engines on the upper or weather decks).

No, Costa Concordia has traditional propulsion. Yes, with pods in theory you could place the generators everywhere on the ship, but for several reasons they are always at the bottom of the ship:
- the weight of the engines and generators: if you locate them on the upper decks you are seriously affecting the stability of the ship:
- shipowners don't want to waste space on the upper decks with engines or generators (also because of the noise);
- if you want to locate the engines away from the pods you'll need to run long electrical cable with up to 6600 volts and this can cause safety issues.

But even with traditional propulsion, you could still place the generators wherever you want as the only connection between the generators and the propulsion motors is electrical cables. For instance the Island/Coral Princess have both diesel generator and a gas turbine to produce power for propulsion. The gas turbine, much smaller than the diesel engines, is located by the funnel.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:57 pm

A 17th body has been recovered by divers on Deck 6 .
 
bilgerat
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:49 am

EY460 - thanks very much for your input in this thread, after reading some pretty wild and uninformed speculation from others about how this all happened it's very good to have a professional seafarer give us the benefit of their knowledge.

I am a marine engineer officer in the UK - I hold a UK Class 2 (Second Engineer) Certificate of Competency and sail on Royal Fleet Auxiliary (naval auxiliary) vessels. My experiece is mainly tankers, but I have sailed on an amphibious landing ship which comes under Class 1 Passenger Vessel regulations. I've sailed on both direct drive and diesel electric propulsion, UMS and watch-keeping vessels. The oldest ship I have sailed on was built in 1974 and the newest in 2006.

Quoting EY460 (Reply 46):
On large cruise ships like this one there is always an Engine Control Room manned 24 hours a day. There are usually two engineer on watch and one or two motorman. One of the officer must remain in the engine control room at all time while the other goes around where needed. The motorman usually stay all the time in the engine room. However, engine spaces run throughout most of the bottom of the ship (apart from engines, generators, and propulsion motors there are also compressors for cold rooms and air conditioning system, pumps and treatment systems for fresh water and waste water, stabilisers controls, etc) and there are also engine spaces around the ship on the upper decks (incinerator for garbage, electrical substations, air conditioning substations, engine casing) so it's possible that nobody was in the area affected by the collision. No technical crew has been killed or injured in the accident.

Absolutely correct. I might add that the bilge wells in machinery spaces have an alarm which sounds in the control room as when the well is full. They also have a flood alarm which activates if the well overfills. Any engineer officer worth their salt will immediately investigate a bilge alarm because of the possiblity of a flood.

I think I'm right in saying the Costa Concordia was a diesel electric vessel? Anything we hear at the moment is just speculation as there are simply too many possible permutations of events that could have led to this incident.


If anyone has any questions about the engineering aspects of this then I'd be happy to answer them as best I can.
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:56 am

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 62):
I am a marine engineer officer in the UK - I hold a UK Class 2 (Second Engineer) Certificate of Competency and sail on Royal Fleet Auxiliary (naval auxiliary) vessels. My experience is mainly tankers, but I have sailed on an amphibious landing ship

Hi BilgeRat (nice nick!). That sounds interesting and exciting. I hold a Class 1 (Master Unlimited) Certificate of Equivalence Competency but I only sailed on board cruise ships. The smallest was carrying about 600 pax and the larger 3400.

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 62):
I think I'm right in saying the Costa Concordia was a diesel electric vessel?

Yes, the Costa Concordia was a diesel electric vessel with 6 diesel generators and two propulsion motors driving the propellers. DG (Diesel Generator) 1, 2 and 3 were located in one compartment, DG 4, 5 and 6 in another and the two propulsion motors in another compartments. All these compartments were damaged in the first collision with the rock and since they are the largest and most vital there wasn't much hope left for the ship.
 
na
Posts: 9738
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:23 am

Quoting EY460 (Reply 60):
The gas turbine, much smaller than the diesel engines, is located by the funnel.

Queen Mary 2 has the same configuration as well, the (auxiliary, only for high speed) gas turbine is located in the large with casing below the funnel. The turbine is rarely used.

Quoting EY460 (Reply 63):
DG (Diesel Generator) 1, 2 and 3 were located in one compartment, DG 4, 5 and 6 in another and the two propulsion motors in another compartments. All these compartments were damaged in the first collision with the rock and since they are the largest and most vital there wasn't much hope left for the ship.

What do you think, would the Concordia have sunk due to the extension of the leak, or would the dry watertight compartments have kept her afloat if a stranding could have been avoided? Would Schettino have had a chance to keep the ship away from the coast, after loosing the engines, or did he command a helpless wreck with no other choice than stranding?
 
bilgerat
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting EY460 (Reply 63):
I hold a Class 1 (Master Unlimited) Certificate of Equivalence Competency but I only sailed on board cruise ships.

I'm doing my Class 1 (Chief Engineer, Motor Unlimited) next year. I'm hoping to move onto short sea, possibly Ro-Ro ferries as I've had enough now of being away from home for months on end  Smile
Quoting na (Reply 64):
All these compartments were damaged in the first collision with the rock and since they are the largest and most vital there wasn't much hope left for the ship.

Most interesting. The loss of both DG compartments and the motor room(s) would certainly leave the ship dead in the water.

I'd really like to see some drawings or plans of the machinery spaces to get a better idea of what happened. When I first saw the damage to the round of the bilge on the port side and the length of the hole relative to the length of the vessel my feeling was that such a hole shouldn't necessarily be able to sink the ship if the watertight sub divisions have been maintained. If I were a suspicious man I'd start to think the watertight doors in the machinery spaces weren't all closed when the grounding occured meaning the flooding was uncontained and thus causing a cascade failure of the main machinery.

All speculation though...

[Edited 2012-01-29 03:45:28]
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting na (Reply 64):
What do you think, would the Concordia have sunk due to the extension of the leak, or would the dry watertight compartments have kept her afloat if a stranding could have been avoided? Would Schettino have had a chance to keep the ship away from the coast, after loosing the engines, or did he command a helpless wreck with no other choice than stranding?

It's difficult to say if the ship would have stayed afloat in those conditions. There are too many uncertainty. Costa Concordia had on the navigation bridge a sophisticated computer to calculate stability. The levels of each of the vessel tanks are shown on this computer in real time, so the stability condition of the ship are known at all time. It is then possible to simulate a damage and the computer is giving the results (if the vessel sinks or not). From what I've read from the interrogation report, on the Concordia this computer was plugged on a normal plug and not on a plug connected to the emergency generator. So after the black out, they had to move the computer plug, restart it, wait for the tanks to come on line and they lost precious time. With no engines and propulsion the ship was without any control and there was not much to do.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting EY460 (Reply 66):

It's difficult to say if the ship would have stayed afloat in those conditions. There are too many uncertainty. Costa Concordia had on the navigation bridge a sophisticated computer to calculate stability. The levels of each of the vessel tanks are shown on this computer in real time, so the stability condition of the ship are known at all time. It is then possible to simulate a damage and the computer is giving the results (if the vessel sinks or not). From what I've read from the interrogation report, on the Concordia this computer was plugged on a normal plug and not on a plug connected to the emergency generator. So after the black out, they had to move the computer plug, restart it, wait for the tanks to come on line and they lost precious time. With no engines and propulsion the ship was without any control and there was not much to do.

With all the ship´s main generators being out of action, would the ballast water pumps still have worked anyway? I´m sure that the emergency generator only has a limited power output.

BTW, whatever lead to the accident is up to the investigation, but what I´m a bit upset about is the fact that the ship´s master and several senior officers apparently (as per eyewitness reports) disappeared while the evacuation was still very much in progress.
I´m quite sure that the Costa cruise company has some standard procedures about who is in charge of what during an evacuation of the ship and I´m quite sure that each officer AND the master have a role fullfill until it either becomes too dangerous for them to remain on their station or the danger is over (and those under their care have been brought to safety or it becomes physically impossible to do so).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 67):
With all the ship´s main generators being out of action, would the ballast water pumps still have worked anyway? I´m sure that the emergency generator only has a limited power output.

Yes, bilge pumps and fire pumps are supplied by the emergency generator, but some of them could have been located in the flooded spaces, so those would have been out of service.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 67):
BTW, whatever lead to the accident is up to the investigation, but what I´m a bit upset about is the fact that the ship´s master and several senior officers apparently (as per eyewitness reports) disappeared while the evacuation was still very much in progress.

For sure some of the officers didn't behave as they should. But don't forget that one of the officers was rescued 36 hours the accident as he was stuck injured inside the vessel. There is also an interesting interrogation report (of course I have no proof that these statements are true) where an officer describe the situation on the starboard side of the ship (the one under the water). When the water was about to reach the level of the lifeboat deck, several officers were there pushing passengers in the water to be rescued by the ship's lifeboats. Some of these officers even returned on the ship after being washed from the lifeboat deck.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting EY460 (Reply 68):
But don't forget that one of the officers was rescued 36 hours the accident as he was stuck injured inside the vessel. There is also an interesting interrogation report (of course I have no proof that these statements are true) where an officer describe the situation on the starboard side of the ship (the one under the water). When the water was about to reach the level of the lifeboat deck, several officers were there pushing passengers in the water to be rescued by the ship's lifeboats. Some of these officers even returned on the ship after being washed from the lifeboat deck.

My kudos to these officers and the rest of the crew, which did their best to get everybody off the ship. As for the injured officer, he obviously couldn´t take part in the evacuation and I´m sure that nobody blames him.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
EY460
Posts: 276
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 69):
My kudos to these officers and the rest of the crew, which did their best to get everybody off the ship. As for the injured officer, he obviously couldn´t take part in the evacuation and I´m sure that nobody blames him.

He took part to the evacuation till the very end and he couldn't get out after the ship tilted (OK, he wasn't very young). He said that while he was trying to get out he fell through an opening and broke his leg. He waited for 36 hours before he was found.
 
bilgerat
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:03 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 67):
With all the ship´s main generators being out of action, would the ballast water pumps still have worked anyway? I´m sure that the emergency generator only has a limited power output.

The exact details vary from vessel to vessel but as a general rule of thumb the following will be powered from an emergency generator:

- Emergency lighting.
- Radar.
- Radios (GMDSS radios specifically).
- Emergency steering gear.
- Enough pumps to get *one* diesel generator i.e. one fuel oil pump, one lubricating oil pump, one cooling water pump.
- One fuel oil transfer pump.
- One bilge pump.

The emergency generator should start automatically within 20 seconds of the main power supply failing. It should run up and parallel itself with the emergency switchboard which will supply the items listed above. It should supply enough power to run these services which are essential to safe navigation and to allow the engineering staff to start one of the main diesel generators and begin to recover full electrical supplies.

All ships also have an emergency or "first start" air compressor which can be used to fill one air receiver with enough air to start an engine or generator in the event of a total electrical failure. This compressor usually has it's own hand started diesel engine.

Likewise all ships have an emergency fire pump which can pressurise the fire main (although not as well as a main fire pump) in the event of a total electrical failure. Again, it is located remotely from the main machinery spaces and is driven by its own independant hand started diesel engine.

I have sailed on one ship that had no less than SIX main fire pumps, and two of those were submersible types, i.e. they would still operate if the compartment was flooded and they were underwater.

Ballast pumps are typically large pumps which require a lot of power to run - therefore not really suitable to be supplied from an emergency generator and emergency switchboard which are usually far lower capacity than the main generators and switchboards. I have never sailed on a ship which had a ballast pump supplied from the emergency system.

All ships also have an "emergecy bilge injection" system for use in a major flooding emergency. Basically the crew can open a valve in the engine room which allows the main sea water cooling system (by necessity a large capacity pumping system) to take its suction from the engine room bilge. The crew can then shut the main sea water suctions on the ship's side and *hopefully* the main sea water pumps can be used to pump out the flood water. This system however requires command approval to operate and is only used as a last resort.

[Edited 2012-01-29 12:04:24]

[Edited 2012-01-29 12:05:32]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 71):
I have sailed on one ship that had no less than SIX main fire pumps, and two of those were submersible types, i.e. they would still operate if the compartment was flooded and they were underwater.

Ballast pumps are typically large pumps which require a lot of power to run - therefore not really suitable to be supplied from an emergency generator and emergency switchboard which are usually far lower capacity than the main generators and switchboards. I have never sailed on a ship which had a ballast pump supplied from the emergency system.

All ships also have an "emergecy bilge injection" system for use in a major flooding emergency. Basically the crew can open a valve in the engine room which allows the main sea water cooling system (by necessity a large capacity pumping system) to take its suction from the engine room bilge. The crew can then shut the main sea water suctions on the ship's side and *hopefully* the main sea water pumps can be used to pump out the flood water. This system however requires command approval to operate and is only used as a last resort.

But these systems won´t work if the main engine / generator rooms have been sliced open like a can of food.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting na (Reply 64):
or did he command a helpless wreck with no other choice than stranding?

Looking at the track data, it appears the ship grounded because it had no power. The speeds it traveled after stopping heading north average about 0.75 knots. That is drifting. The wind was out of the north/northeast from the weather reports I've seen.

Acting like a big sail, with the stern down a few feet from flooding, the ship blew up against a lee shore before any tugs to could get to it.

The track data does not support an intentional grounding, nor what I first though was an attempt to get close to the port to off-load/ evacuate the ship.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:00 pm

A very well made documentary on Channel 4 tonight in the UK/Ireland. It was really well done and not accusing or sensationalist. It had unseen footage of passengers videos taken in the restaurant and galleys.
 
LGWflyer
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:38 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 74):
A very well made documentary on Channel 4 tonight in the UK/Ireland. It was really well done and not accusing or sensationalist. It had unseen footage of passengers videos taken in the restaurant and galleys.

I am watching the repeat now on C4 +1. It is interesting seeing the footage captured by the passengers, must have been scary.
3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24088
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: The Aftermath Of The Costa Concordia Disaster

Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 75):
It is interesting seeing the footage captured by the passengers, must have been scary.

Indeed and the 3D graphics showing exactly what happened was very interesting.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 70 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos