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Kiwirob
Posts: 12733
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:04 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 144):
Russia? And what business is it of Russia specifically to butt in to another countries business?

Coming from an American that's laughable.

Quoting sweair (Reply 149):
The west should at least give Ukraine weapons that make the russians pay a high price.

Ukraine has the weapons, what it doesn't have is good leadership, a well trained military and enough boots on the ground. Draft dodging is rife. I think it's time for folks like Tugger, Scipio to man up and put there feet where they mouths are, head to Ukraine and fight.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12567
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 139):
Being a response to bogus reports of a Russian invasion.

Its cute how someone now involved in the fighting, Putin, can negotiate a seize fire.....

Quoting tu204 (Reply 139):
But will commercial consumers that end up bankrupt by having to pay twice the price be also so happy? What about residental users that end up paying twice as much to heat their homes?

The price increase will be marginal. High energy prices are good to further efficient use of energy, so it will be beneficial for the economy in the long run.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12733
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 151):
The price increase will be marginal. High energy prices are good to further efficient use of energy, so it will be beneficial for the economy in the long run.

Tell that to all the old people who die because they can't afford to heat there homes this winter.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:26 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 136):
I read this morning that Putin told Barroso he'd be in Kiev inside of two weeks. I don't doubt it. What I'm wondering is where Russia stops, does it want to invade all former Soviet satellites one by one or do Russians want all out war?

No, Putin won't annex the Ukraine. He has seen how expensive this is with Crimean pensinsula, when he had to fulfill his promises, like doubling the pensions. The place will cost him billions.

The Ukraine will be broken down into nominally independent impoverished countries, completely depending on Russia and too scared to disobey. This way they will be formally souvereign and Putin won't have to pay for them. The places with an ethnic Russian majority population (especially after the ongoing ethnic cleansing) might be subsidised.

The next country in line will be Kazakhstan. Putin already warned Naserbayev not to step out off line. I wonder if Kazakhstan will turn to China for help. They already have a pipeline feeding China from their oil fields as to be less depending on Russia, and there is heavy Chinese investment going on.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...country-s-independence/506178.html

On the other hand a woman who wants the same sort of autonomy from Moscow for her province Krasnodar in Russia, which Putin demands for the Eastern Ukraine frrom Kiev, has been jailed in Russia.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ussia-wants-in-ukraine/506274.html

Hypocritical, isn't it?

As for the oil price, the Russian oil concern Rosneft needs the oil price to be at $ 110 per barrel to break even. Oil has for a long time been around $ 90, so with every barrel they exported they made a loss. Rosneft has actually asked the Russian government for help:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/busine...-support-minister-says/505914.html

From what I have read somewhere else the money is to come from the Russian pension system. Sure, screw the ordinary Russians, so that Putin's cronies can fill their pockets!

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Severnaya
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:41 am

Here a list of missing/arrested/killed Russian soldiers in Ukraine: http://tvrain.ru/soldat/

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
You can start with how they came to power and finish with shelling civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

A bit odd statement. Like VVP came clean to power. We all know how Putin came to power and how he earned his first money. Remember Kontinent and the meat contracts. That's enough!

Quoting tu204 (Reply 61):
Coming back to Russian sanctions against the E.U.+Norway, as I said when they were announced: there are no "empty shelves", "skyrocketing prices" that some "economists" were forecasting. Business as usual with a small rise in prices on some products.

Not sure if you know enough about where the vegetables in Russia come from. The last month and the next two months there won't be massive price rises, when the winter comes we won't have enough vegetables left.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 67):
Abkhazia and South Ossetia are independent states now.

Sure....recognized by 4 independent states.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
From what I have read somewhere else the money is to come from the Russian pension system. Sure, screw the ordinary Russians, so that Putin's cronies can fill their pockets!

Unfortunately you are correct.

[Edited 2014-09-03 01:42:29]
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
JJJ
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:11 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 133):
Germany will end up sending truckloads of Gold physically to Russia for the gas that you guys need.

Algeria has the capacity to cover supply to Europe even if Russia stops overnight.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 129):
Some are, some aren't.

And those that aren't are as good as a IOU scribbled in a paper napkin.

The whole idea of the L/C is that both parties who don't particularly trust each other agree to pay astronomical bank fees for the security that a backwater bank will pay once certain documents are provided.

Without the SWIFT backup you are at the mercy of the issuing bank. You may as well send someone over with diamonds and cash and wait for some confirmation to hand in the payment.

It will be like some of our dealings with Cuba or some East African Islamic credit societies. Tractors in exchange for canned fish, or fertilizer for fruit.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:17 am

As for threatening Kazakhstan, to me it seems that Putin wants to get control of the central Asian oil and gas fields (plus the other natural resources Kazakhstan offers) to get rid of a competitor (reducing supply to increase the prices).
Another hot point is the use of Baikunor space port, for which Russia currently hasto pay a high leasing fee.

As for Crimea, the annexation also came with the exclusive economic zone around it, where there are suspected gas fields. Ukraine had invested a lot of money into exploration and actually just had some drilling equipment ready, when Russia invaded. All this equipment is now in the hands of Russia.
Similarly one reson for the current advance towards Mariupol (besides creating a second front and a land corridor to Crimea) could be to get full control of the Sea of Azov, under which there are also suspected gas fields.

Exploitation of these gas fields could have made the Ukraine independent of Russian gas, so no more opportuntiy for blackmail by threatening to shut off the pipeline in winter.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
NoUFO
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 133):

I can tell you what would happen if Russia gets kicked out of the SWIFT system: Germany will end up sending truckloads of Gold physically to Russia for the gas that you guys need.

So you think Germany didn't prepare for a potential crisis?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Germany already has basically enough natural gas to cover the upcoming winter, even without shoppping for liquid gas in Asia which would be a lot more likely than sending gold by the truckload to Russia.

And since you always play the 'blame the media' type of game: Feel free to read what Reporters without Borders or Freedom House have to say on how free the press in Russia is.
I support the right to arm bears
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 157):

So you think Germany didn't prepare for a potential crisis?

Current range i believe is 6 month before any shortage will show if all Russian Gas is stopped and w/o any reduction in consumption. The latter is likely to happen by shifting electrical loads away from Gas fired Powerplants (Germany is a large net-exporter of electrical power). About half the EU wouldn´t care at all, Poland and Finland are petty exposed though.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
PHX787
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 157):
And since you always play the 'blame the media' type of game: Feel free to read what Reporters without Borders or Freedom House have to say on how free the press in Russia is.

Here we go:
http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

And this:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/report/f...dom-press/2013/russia#.VAdmkec01oA
"
2013 Scores
Press Status
Not Free
Press Freedom Score
(0 = best, 100 = worst)
81
(0 = best, 30 = worst)
25
(0 = best, 40 = worst)
32
(0 = best, 30 = worst)
24
"

Stop quoting your pathetic media, tu204.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
tivo
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:09 pm

Yes, Russian media is clearly following an agenda. It has been like that long before the conflict in Ukraine. But to think the Ukrainian side does not is at least as naive as believing Putin's Channel One show.

Edit: spelling

[Edited 2014-09-03 15:10:51]
 
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 pm

An interesting and thoughtful article regarding China's view on Russia - NATO tensions presented by " The National Interest":

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...ink-about-the-ukraine-crisis-11196
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
wingman
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:31 pm

I'm pretty certain they'd love for Putin to set an example they could emulate. First up Taiwan, and then a stroll through the South China Sea to claim the beachheads of The Philippines and Vietnam. With the exception of Rob I think many Asians would be alarmed to see this happen. But hey, when a demented tiger-rider is what you admire most, then we can only expect the very worst. At least their media isn't state controlled with an iron fist.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 162):
I'm pretty certain they'd love for Putin to set an example they could emulate. First up Taiwan,

Not really going to work, as the argument is two sided. Crimea was part of Russia way back when, so there is an analogy, but its also about self determination of the people overruling a sovereign states integrity, and Taiwanese people did make their decision ....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Marcus
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:41 pm

And in other news....the news media reports what we all new already...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...use-truth-horrible-moscow-ilovaysk
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
No, Putin won't annex the Ukraine.

Of course he doesn't want Ukrain, nobody want's Ukraine except Ukrainians. Everyone knows it's a money pit with a dim future, Putin just wants to keep Russian influence in Ukraine strong.

Quoting wingman (Reply 162):
First up Taiwan, and then a stroll through the South China Sea to claim the beachheads of The Philippines and Vietnam.

TBH I have no problem if China annex's Taiwan, it's Chinese, it always was Chinese, if they take it back no big deal. Besides who is going to stop them if they went ahead and did it, certainly not the US, I think that's a given. Only 21 states recognise the ROC, non of which could really do a damn thing to stop China if she did annex Taiwan.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 165):
TBH I have no problem if China annex's Taiwan, it's Chinese, it always was Chinese, if they take it back no big deal.

you have no problem with a dictatorship taking over a democracy by means of force?
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 166):

you have no problem with a dictatorship taking over a democracy by means of force?

Not if they are reclaiming something that is theirs. China isn't a dictatorship either.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 167):
Not if they are reclaiming something that is theirs.

Why is it theirs? It was also Japans, there was a Republic of Formosa, and there have been people and governments on Taiwan before the Qing dynasty invaded and annexed the Island, it was dutch, it was Spanish, there was the Kingdom of Dadu ..... so why is it China´s?
And of course Mainland China was part of the ROC, not the other way round .....

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 167):
China isn't a dictatorship either.

Ok, if you want to talk semantics they claim to be a single-party socialist state and they are in fact a kleptocracy.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2012
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 167):
Not if they are reclaiming something that is theirs

Good then Russia can hand back SPB to Sweden as it originally was a Swedish
settlement which was taken by the Russians about 300 years ago.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
Marcus
Posts: 1665
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 169):
Good then Russia can hand back SPB to Sweden as it originally was a Swedish
settlement which was taken by the Russians about 300 years ago.

But why stop there? let's give Crimea back to the Byzantine empire and Russia to the Mongols  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1sjHGODFHg
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
Scipio
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting tivo (Reply 160):
Yes, Russian media is clearly following an agenda. It has been like that long before the conflict in Ukraine. But to think the Ukrainian side does not is at least as naive as believing Putin's Channel One show.

Now here is a fitting story about Ukrainian and Russian mass media:

A journalist of Russia's NTV contacted the wife of one of the Russian soldiers reported by Ukrainian media as killed in Donbass, apparently expecting the wife to confirm that her husband is alive and well and that the Ukrainian press story was fabricated. She contacted the lady through social network VK, and the resulting messaging trail has been published on the internet.

It goes as follows (partially shortened):

- the journalist (Kristina Gershvild) introduces herself and explains that she is working on a television program to expose the lies of the Ukrainian mass media
- the answer by Irina Timina (full translation) : "I would help you only on the topic of lies by the Russian mass media. That is a much more pressing problem in our times. Therefore, excuse me but there is no way I can help you on that." and "What kind of similar case [referring to supposed false reports about Russian soldiers in Ukrainian media] did I have? You must be confusing me with someone else. My husband perished. He perished due to the fault of our government."
- the journalist then sends the link to the Ukrainian press article that she had assumed false, and asks whether this is her husband and whether the article is a lie
- Irina's answer: "It's true. That's him."
- "Excuse me, Irina"

End of conversation.

Oooops...

Irina's husband, Zakhar Timin, died in Ukraine on August 16.

http://vk.com/wall-38854900_4363379?reply=4363775
http://antikor.com.ua/articles/12859...intervjju_ntv_o_lhi_ukrainskih_smi
http://uainfo.org/blognews/388166-vd...esantnika-oblomala-ntvshnikov.html


The original story that triggered the NTV journalist's inquiry:

http://uainfo.org/blognews/380771-es...koy-armii-ubit-v-ukraine-foto.html


If someone thinks all of this is fake, perhaps he/she can contact poor Irina? She may no longer be free (to talk), though...


Btw, Tivo, your reaction is very much in line with what the Kremlin wants: shifting the attention to Ukraine's problems and away from Russia's problems...

Problems in Russia? Let's talk about Ukraine...

[Edited 2014-09-04 17:00:25]

[Edited 2014-09-04 17:24:17]
 
sweair
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:38 am

The brain drain in Russia must be growing fast now, what sane intelligent person would want to live there now? No great future ahead for sure, the biggest thief in history Putin will turn what little progress Russia made after USSR into dust and fill his own bank accounts like noone before him. Poor sober russians!
 
Severnaya
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:37 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 171):
Now here is a fitting story about Ukrainian and Russian mass media:

Yep, both Russian and Ukrainian mass media are basically full of crap.
http://www.stopfake.org/ is a very nice website which filters out the fake reports.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12567
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:50 am

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 173):

Yep, both Russian and Ukrainian mass media are basically full of crap.
http://www.stopfake.org/ is a very nice website which filters out the fake reports.

It should still be read very careful judging by the whois information. On the surface it looks like it is pretty balanced, however good propaganda is the one that you don´t recognize.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tu204
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:00 am

Not in the mood today to participate in the pissing match.

Today I changed my view towards Ukranian refugees here in Russia.

My view before was that the refugees themselves are partially to blame for not doing enough back in January February to stop the overthrow of their government. Therefore they can pretty much fend for themselves.

However when I told this view yesterday to my friend that works with Social Services here in Kazan, he invited me to go with him to visit a couple hundred refugees right here in Kazan. I took up the offer.
They are living in pretty decent conditions, a 3 star hotel with free meals daily, kids have been admitted to school, adults have been given work permits and many have already found themselves work.

After chatting with a couple families one thing was clear - only the kids want to return home. The adults have no plans regarding this as they saw themselves what a mess Ukraine has become. In their opinion there are two outcomes:

1) Ukrainian Forces manage to regain control of Donetsk and Lukhansk fully and then they will be "going down with the ship" that has become Ukraine. Living conditions and oppertunities will be getting worse with every passing year for the forseeable future. There will be great tensions between the locals and central Kiev untill Maydan 3.0 comes around and the current leadership is thrown out into the cold. But even if this happens 5-10 years down the road, the new guys on the block won't be any better. The situation will just do a 180 and the opressed will become the opressors. There is little chance of a compromise where both sides will live in peace. Too much blood has been shed for this to happen in the next two generations.

2) Rebel Forces will defeat Kiev and the two provinces will be left in a state of limbo. And although in their opinion life in these two (unrecognized and de-facto independent) provinces will be visibly better than that of the rest of Ukraine, the fact of being only de-facto independent and in a state of limbo will erase any oppertunity for economic growth and investments for the near future.

As to my question of why they didn't do anything about the goofs that took power when they still hadn't taken power, some said that they didn't think that Kiev would send in forces and be as brutal with the locals, others that they had tried but it had been too late and so on. Many have relatives that are fighting Kiev as we speak.

Another interesting thing was that some of the refugees were people that left Kramatosk AFTER Ukranian Forces had re-captured the city from the rebels.

Anyhow, my view changed towards them that they cannot be to blame for a bunch of shortsighted goofs taking power and then starting a civil war.

I have arranged to take my friend's Cessna for a day and take all the refugee kids, about 30 something of them living in that hotel, up for 20 minute joy rides. Let's say it's my way of trying to smooth over some of the pain these kids hve experienced in the last 6 months, and also thanking karma for being born and living in Russia and not Ukraine.

If weather is good this will take place next Thursday, if not - during the week after that. I'll keep you all informed about this little charity of mine. Paying out of pocket, if anyone wants to chip on fuel, PM me. 
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:48 am

It's a very good posting, tu204.
However, I am concerned that even with more than 1,000 accommodation centers throughout the country, we will not be able to manage such a wave of migrants. It's ca. 800,000 now.

It is a huge social problem. Just consider education and health care.

Sure the Russian society will absorb as many as wish to stay. Eventually.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
Severnaya
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 176):
It is a huge social problem.

Certainly and our economy isn't exactly what it used to be.
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2012
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:22 pm

Apparently an Estonian intelligence officer have been kidnapped and taken to
Russia according to Baltic times.

Quote:
An Estonian counter intelligence official has been abducted by gunpoint and taken
to Russia,public broadcasting reports.

Estonian intelligence said the incident occurred at the Luhamaa border checkpoint at
around 9am this morning. The unnamed official was understood to have been investigating
a case of cross border crime

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35518/#.VAnFarx_tgw
http://news.postimees.ee/2911015/est...napped-taken-to-russia-at-gunpoint

[Edited 2014-09-05 07:22:55]
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 172):

The brain drain in Russia must be growing fast now, what sane intelligent person would want to live there now? No great future ahead for sure, the biggest thief in history Putin will turn what little progress Russia made after USSR into dust and fill his own bank accounts like noone before him. Poor sober russians!

The brain drain in Russia happened already between 1917 and the 1950s, when most of the intelligentsiya were imprisoned or murdered by the bolshevists/communists. When you think about it, Russia had Tolstoy, Dostoyevski, Bulgakov, Onegin, Tchaikovskiy, Rimskiy-Korsakov, Rachmaninov, and a long line of other fantastic artists, composers, writers... and the only masterpiece that has come out of Russia for the past 100 years is the Kalashnikov machine gun.

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 178):
Apparently an Estonian intelligence officer have been kidnapped and taken to
Russia according to Baltic times.

That indeed happened this morning, however at the press conference the security police have initially ruled out the kidnapping to be politically motivated. The Russian border guard claims to have no information about the illegal border crossings.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 171):
- the journalist (Kristina Gershvild)
.
.
.- Irina's answer: "It's true. That's him."
- "Excuse me, Irina"

Either the journalist is brainwashed (a real possibility, as we see in this thread) or she did it on purpose, to expose her government without risking her job.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 175):
As to my question of why they didn't do anything about the goofs that took power when they still hadn't taken power, some said that they didn't think that Kiev would send in forces and be as brutal with the locals, others that they had tried but it had been too late and so on. Many have relatives that are fighting Kiev as we speak.

Another interesting thing was that some of the refugees were people that left Kramatosk AFTER Ukranian Forces had re-captured the city from the rebels.

Anyhow, my view changed towards them that they cannot be to blame for a bunch of shortsighted goofs taking power and then starting a civil war.

What is interesting is your way of changing (recent) history. Yes the government was overthrown in Kiev. Yes the new government voted a couple of questionable language laws. But they didn't start a civil war. They didn't send forces for the hell of it. They sent forces when the violence in the East erupted.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tu204
Posts: 2137
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
But they didn't start a civil war. They didn't send forces for the hell of it. They sent forces when the violence in the East erupted.

They sent in forces instead of sitting down and talking.

The violence that occured in the East that you are reffering to is exactly what those that overthrew the government did - mass protests and occupying government buildings.
One of those refugees I spoke to said exactly that: Why was it OK for them to do, but not for us. Their concerns were not heard, they were not part of this whole Maydan deal and were pretty much told: This is how it is going to be. Nobody asked the East what they thought.

Rightfully they felt pissed off. Their demands were completely ignored and they were treated as garbage that was not worth talking to by the (at that time) completely illegitimate leadership.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 176):
However, I am concerned that even with more than 1,000 accommodation centers throughout the country, we will not be able to manage such a wave of migrants. It's ca. 800,000 now.
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 176):
Sure the Russian society will absorb as many as wish to stay. Eventually.

I am concerned about this as well. However talking to the refugees that I talked to, I highly doubt they will be a burden on our society. They were all fairly qualified individuals that are in demand. And they are willing and eager to work and start new lives. Our government is not giving them handouts of money just for the fact that they are refugees. Yes, they have free accomodations, food and clothing and some allowance, but they seemed to realise that they cannot live this way forever.

Plus as you know there are many regions of Russia which lack enough skilled workers. These regions are starting to appeal to skilled refugees to move to those areas by providing free housing and other assistance to relocate to "less favourable" areas. This can be good incentive for someone starting a new life in a new place with nothing in their pockets.

I look forward to spending some more time chatting with them on the day we go flying.

Today I already arranged that the airport we will be using will waive all fees for our flights. The airport manager even offered join in on the charity rides with the AN-2 they use for parachuting drops.  
He also suggested contacting local media to shed light on my little quest. 
Quoting pylon101 (Reply 176):
Just consider education and health care.

On the other hand, there is a shortage of medical staff and educational staff as well. Many of those refugees belong to those professions and qualifications are mainly the same. Doctors and nurses will only have to undergo a short re-training program for more advanced equipment and they are good to go.

As for education, all of the schoolkids that I saw there were attending classes in various local schools (obviously they were not thrown into one but spread out). For college students it is more difficult as you only have so many spots and they were allocated back in May. Some of the students were lucky enough to get "extra" seats that were created specifically for refugees in local colleges, for free. Others I guess will have to wait untill next year to continue their studies and in the meantime find work.

Also keep in mind that Russia is a big country with a population of 140 million. Even 1 million refugees is a drop in the bucket if it is properly distributed. If all the refugees stay in Krasnodar and Rostov it will be a disaster. But if that number iis properly spread out throughout the country the negative effect will be minimal. Maybe even positive.
So far it doesn't look so bad. There's a couple thousand here in Kazan and more throughout Tatarstan. They were all sent here from refugee camps in Rostov from what I understand. Let's hope the Ministry of Emergencies doesn't get lazy. And with all of this attention they seem to be doing the best they can.

Important thing is the people I talked to are sincerely saddened to end up in the situation where they are forced to accept help. These are people that have not ever been in this situation and do not look like they want to be dependant for long. This is a great contrast to my former classmates and friends back in Canada that seemed to like being refugees and be given handouts.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
Either the journalist is brainwashed (a real possibility, as we see in this thread) or she did it on purpose, to expose her government without risking her job.

The brainwashing is very real. What we have seen from Russia over the past year has probably been the biggest and most forceful brainwashing/propaganda campaign in Europe since the end of the Cold War.

A Russian colleague and friend of mine, who works in Kyiv, told me months ago: "It is very easy to become anti-Ukrainian if you watch Russian TV". A big part of the origins of this conflict is that many people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine have long been watching Russian TV...

The website posted by Severnaya is very useful in this regard.

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 173):
Yep, both Russian and Ukrainian mass media are basically full of crap.
http://www.stopfake.org/ is a very nice website which filters out the fake reports.

I know the site, and assume that it is run by Ukrainians. Ukrainians are very well placed to expose Russian propaganda: they are motivated, know what is actually going on in Ukraine, know the Russian language, remember the Soviet Union's propaganda methods, and are IT savvy enough to use tools such as Google picture search...

The result is a list like this...

Russia's top-100 lies about Ukraine:

(Warning: many images of dead and maimed bodies and such)

http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-lies-about-ukraine-part-1/
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-lies-about-ukraine-part-2/
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-lies-about-ukraine-part-3/
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-lies-about-ukraine-part-4/
http://www.stopfake.org/en/russia-s-top-100-lies-about-ukraine/

However, much of the Russian propaganda is so obviously fake and so easily exposed (Google picture search...), that I do believe that Putin's propaganda campaign is indeed being sabotaged from within.

To my big frustration, until recently the Western European mass media were also very much under the influence of Putin's propaganda campaign. Fascists on Maydan and such...

It took MH017 for the Western European media to wake up...


To avoid misunderstandings among non-Russian speaking readers, let me clarify that the stopfake.org website did not expose the conversation I posted above between Kristina Gershvild (NTV) and Irina Timina (Zakhar's widow) as fake. It only posted it as evidence of Russian media manipulation.

[Edited 2014-09-06 16:49:07]
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2012
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:41 pm

USA, France, Norway, Italy and Poland will send military advisor and equipment to Ukraine.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/varlden/na...olander-skickar-vapen-till-ukraina

Quote:
"At the NATO summit agreements were reached on the provision of military advisers and
supplies of modern armaments from the United States, France, Italy, Poland and Norway,
" the aide, Yuri Lytsenko, said on his Facebook page.

He gave no further details and it was not immediately possible to confirm his statement.
Poroshenko, whose armed forces are battling pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine,
attended the two-day summit in Wales that ended on Friday.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine...pons-to-ukrainian-forces-1.2758330
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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HELyes
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:26 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 173):
Yep, both Russian and Ukrainian mass media are basically full of crap.

  After headlines like this it's hard to take anything seriously:

The Russian Times: "Finland wants to join Russia".

In Russian:
http://therussiantimes.com/news/12541.html
 
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pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:30 pm

Jeez, you found tabloids I've never heard of. Hm.. it existed since 2011.
The stuff you referred to is a complete nonsense.
Just wondering how many comments there.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6218
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting HELyes (Reply 184):
The Russian Times: "Finland wants to join Russia".

In Russian:
http://therussiantimes.com/news/1254....html

They seem to have reprinted an 18 months old article from the Voice of Russia Radio website:

http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_03_15/...inland-become-a-Russian-Hong-Kong/

Putin's propaganda really must be desperate....
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 181):
They sent in forces instead of sitting down and talking.

Very reluctantly, very late, and only after talking did not yield any results. The deciding factor that made the authorities in Kyiv decide to attempt to forcefully restore order was the wave of murders, kidnappings, torture, looting, vandalism, theft, terror against anyone holding pro-Ukrainian views, and general random terror against Donbass's population that was unleashed by the "separatists".

We now have a second ceasefire initiated by Poroshenko. Another attempt to settle the crisis peacefully. Somehow, the "separatists" never came up with any constructive proposals to settle the crisis peacefully.

Perhaps because "peace" is not among the marching orders they got from the Kremlin...

Somehow I also cannot remember any constructive proposal from Putin with respect to the Ukraine crisis...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 181):
The violence that occured in the East that you are reffering to is exactly what those that overthrew the government did - mass protests and occupying government buildings.

Not at all. It was completely different.

Here is an example of your "mass protests" during which "local protestors" occupied a government building in Kramatorsk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQfK36byhJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULgKbmzkRuU

Notice Babay among the "green men". Babay (Alexander Mozhaev), the guy with the distinctive grey beard, is a Russian citizen. These heavily armed guys are for the most part Russians who crossed the border into Ukraine to create a separatist revolt in Donbass as per the Kremlin's orders...

[Edited 2014-09-07 17:10:09]

[Edited 2014-09-07 17:11:10]
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 185):
The stuff you referred to is a complete nonsense.

Same with whatever drivel comes out of Russia's media, so what of it?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12567
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 188):
Same with whatever drivel comes out of Russia's media, so what of it?

  

To get some more solid information into this thread:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukrai...and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05

And amnesty is not know for a pro western stance and/or taking part in bullshit spin operations.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Vlad? Is that you?

I've said it before. Vlad is NOT short for Vladimir. It's the short form of Vladislav.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12567
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:31 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 190):
Vlad is NOT short for Vladimir.

I always figured calling Mr. Putin Vlad wasn´t a diminutive for Vladimir, but a reference to Vlad the Impaler, which seems to be right on the money.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:38 pm

The title on Yahoo/WIRE is quite revealing "Russian Planes Annoy Canadians in the Black Sea."
That's the whole point of the confrontation, guys.
Well, not exactly: BRICS is the cause - Canadians are the effect.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-planes...cmt_s=u#mediacommentsugc_container
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
PHX787
Posts: 7892
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:56 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 166):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 165):
TBH I have no problem if China annex's Taiwan, it's Chinese, it always was Chinese, if they take it back no big deal.

you have no problem with a dictatorship taking over a democracy by means of force?

Heeeeeeeello, Anyone in Taiwan will tell you that Taiwan is pretty much NOT Chinese anymore. They're Taiwanese. This is the sentiment of pretty much everyone outside of Taipei.

They have a very unique culture now...any attempt by the rogue nation of the so-called "People's Republic" of China will be met with a very bloody war, which the US will probably get involved in.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 189):
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukrai...and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05

Thank you for posting this.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
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pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:53 pm

There is some (still pretty weak) signs that the Western elites are realizing that something to be done about the present East-West confrontation.
Henry Kissinger's words are definitely worth of reading and weighing:


[Edited 2014-09-11 08:57:58]
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
User avatar
teme82
Posts: 1341
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:38 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:49 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 194):
Henry Kissinger's words are definitely worth of reading and weighing:

Link missing ... :/
Flying high and low
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10167
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 194):
There is some (still pretty weak) signs that the Western elites are realizing that something to be done about the present East-West confrontation.

Hey can you tell why NATO "on Russias doorstep" is any issue at all? Russia has ("had" currently) its best relationships and business ties etc. with those neighboring states that are part of NATO or the EU. It does not make any sense to me. Putin is now constantly prevaricating about NATO being militarily provocative, and stating how Russia is a great "nuclear power" and nations should be careful, etc. He appears to be trying to create an atmosphere where the Russian public believe they are endangered by "the west" and appears to be trying to restart the great cold war "us vs them" mentality. But why? To what end, for what purpose? Russia was doing well and trade with the rest of the world was rising, Russia had (and has) great influence in world politics but now appears to be isolating itself.

Why? What was the actual danger from the rest of the world?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Severnaya
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:03 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 196):
Why?

To take the people's attention away from the domestic problems.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 196):
What was the actual danger from the rest of the world?

None
Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:47 am

Oops... I am sorry. There was something wrong with the posting.

Maybe I am banned. but I can't post any links. I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12567
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 196):
Russia was doing well and trade with the rest of the world was rising,

Who was Japans biggest trading partner in 1940, who was Germany´s?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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