Do You Think Apple Will Realize Their ICar Dream?

L0VE2FLY · Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:57 am

There has been a lot of talk recently about Apple working on a whole new and different project, the iCar! Apple has hired engineers who used to work for Tesla and some sources speculate the tech giant's first car to roll out as early as 2020!

Do you think Apple will succeed in their latest endeavor? On one hand they're the largest publicly traded company in the world, valued at $700+ billion, and their cult following make them the envy of their competitors, on the other making cars even electrical ones is very different business than making iPhones and iPads.

garnetpalmetto · Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:53 am

Yawn. Once again, Apple fails to innovate.

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/google_self_driving_car

garpd · Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 1):
Yawn. Once again, Apple fails to innovate.

Yes but there's has the apple symbol on it.
Which means there will be thousands of skin tight jeans wearing, tech dependant effeminate Applewhores lining up to buy the iCar!

casinterest · Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Thread starter):
There has been a lot of talk recently about Apple working on a whole new and different project, the iCar! Apple has hired engineers who used to work for Tesla and some sources speculate the tech giant's first car to roll out as early as 2020!

Do you think Apple will succeed in their latest endeavor? On one hand they're the largest publicly traded company in the world, valued at $700+ billion, and their cult following make them the envy of their competitors, on the other making cars even electrical ones is very different business than making iPhones and iPads.

It's an interesting project. What will come of it, who knows? However as discussed on another thread, if there is going to be an autonomous car , it will have to have a very intelligent and powerful operating system. The ability to develop this will require huge investments and decision making skills. I don't think folks should write off Apple. Especially considering that they have partnered up with IBM (aka WATSON) in order to work on mutual endeavors.

Apple will need help on the Car part, but Apple has always been rather good at sourcing parts.

2020 may see the first semi autonomous car from them, but it will be interesting to see what happens with them and the car manufacturer's. I almost see Apple as trying to actually sell them the brains of the car and let them do what they do best and build cars.

I imagine Google is doing the same thing, and really selling their test units as examples of the possibilities for the car manufacturers..

Kiwirob · Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Thread starter):
Do you think Apple will succeed in their latest endeavor?

If Musk with his vastly smaller pocket book can do it, Apple will have no problems, they have already started hiring automotive engineers. If I was a legacy automobile company I would start worrying, I think if anyone can bust into the auto market and make a huge splash it will be Apple, Tesla will be nothing by comparisson.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...us-apple-car-idUSKBN0LH24P20150213

Aesma · Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:38 pm

"As early as 2020" everybody and their mother will be making autonomous cars.

You can't be all things to all people, and Apple likes to minimize its line-up (although it has expanded it a bit) so even if they make it, they'll be small potatoes. They'll be making high end stuff that most people in the world can't afford. With phones, you can spend an amount of money you shouldn't to buy one, then eat potatoes for three months, but with a car costing several times what you make in a year, there is no chance.

From my POV as a car enthusiast, an autonomous car will be a game changer for what it offers, but it will fundamentally change our priorities when buying a car. No need for power, who cares about looks, etc. You'll want something comfortable, connected, safe.

Ken777 · Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:09 pm

I believe that Apple will develop features for car makers - yesterday they announced that Apple CarPlay will be supported by all "major" manufacturers with 40 models coming out this year.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/...ing-to-40-new-car-models-this-year

Apple can deliver innovation on multiple levels, like software, hardware, manufacturing and car companies should be rather pleased to have those development costs taken of their backs. The only issue is that Apple does not do cheap, which can hurt some auto companies.

falstaff · Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
. If I was a legacy automobile company I would start worrying, I think if anyone can bust into the auto market and make a huge splash it will be Apple

I wouldn't. Apple may be a big company with a lot money, but they are not a car builder. Automobile manufacturing is a lot different than making hand held devices. The manufacturing space needed is rather large and a car is a lot more complicated than an iphone. Even if they build a car they will have to sell and service them. Tesla claimed that they would build a car that never needs service, which didn't happen. To sell cars in huge volumes you need a service and parts network. Machines will always break on occasion and people will always crash into things. Even if the cars are driving themselves there will still be a need for body work. If a tree limb falls on a car and dents it up who will fix that? Where will the parts come from? Where will warranty repairs be conducted at? If you want to sell cars in huge volumes those questions must be answered because sending a technician to the car is not viable on a large scale.
Apple would be better off teaming up with an existing manufacturer.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
who cares about looks

I think people would still care about looks. Drivers will still consider the size and abilities of a vehicle when they purchase. If you are single person your needs will likely be different than somebody with five children. I for one need a pickup, because I haul scrap metal and lawn/garden equipment regularly.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
The only issue is that Apple does not do cheap, which can hurt some auto companies.

I don't think that would matter because they could recoup those costs in sales.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
From my POV as a car enthusiast

I am also a car guy and self driving cars scare me. I love driving and I would hate to give it up. I think self driving cars will be just like the gun issue in the USA. Many of us gun rights people always say "from my cold dead hands" and I guarantee millions of Americans, regardless political persuasion, will say the same thing in regards to their ability to drive their car.

Kiwirob · Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I wouldn't. Apple may be a big company with a lot money, but they are not a car builder. Automobile manufacturing is a lot different than making hand held devices. The manufacturing space needed is rather large and a car is a lot more complicated than an iphone.

I realise this but plenty of people start making cars every year, some succeed, in this group I would include Tesla and McLaren, both significantly smaller companies than Apple. They don't even need to build the car themselves, in Europe there are several companies who contract manufacture vehicles, Valmet, Manga, Heuliez are three of them. Apple design it, someone else builds it.

Ozair · Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Apple would be better off teaming up with an existing manufacturer.

Or buy one? It would be a quick way to the market with established dealers using Apple improvements?

pvjin · Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:14 pm

I sure wouldn't buy one, I bet its chassis would bend on rough Finnish roads similarly to the way Iphone 6 bends in a pocket.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
From my POV as a car enthusiast, an autonomous car will be a game changer for what it offers, but it will fundamentally change our priorities when buying a car. No need for power, who cares about looks, etc. You'll want something comfortable, connected, safe.

The day autonomous cars can't be driven manually anymore will be a sad day if it ever happens. I'll keep driving manually for rest of my life if I can, it's one of the few enjoyable things a modern society can offer.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Many of us gun rights people always say "from my cold dead hands" and I guarantee millions of Americans, regardless political persuasion, will say the same thing in regards to their ability to drive their car.

If our society ever reaches the point where people are slaves of public transport and self driving "private" cars I'll definitely emigrate to some poor, backward place where people still have their freedom.

Flighty · Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:43 pm

Apple probably will be involved with cars.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 1):
Yawn. Once again, Apple fails to innovate.

Apple doesn't do primary innovations, they bundle them. Believe it or not, an innovation provides no value to you unless you can use it. Most people don't have time to figure out how to set up a handheld computer.

Apple caters to the 90% of people who don't want to nerd out on electronics, and a significant chunk of those who do, as well.

Ken777 · Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:12 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
They don't even need to build the car themselves, in Europe there are several companies who contract manufacture vehicles, Valmet, Manga, Heuliez are three of them. Apple design it, someone else builds it.

That is an option. After Ben Lexcen's design won the America's Cup (after 132 years i US hands) Lexcen did some work with Toyota, resulting in a long line of patents. A lot this those innovations went into early Commodores and the Toyota Lexcen, and can still be seen today in the Lexus. (BTW, we were living in Australia at the time and I was the only Yank at the company I worked for. Hate to admit it, but I was pretty proud of the Aussies in Perth and enjoyed the ribbing I got at work)

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Apple doesn't do primary innovations, they bundle them. Believe it or not, an innovation provides no value to you unless you can use it.

Apple does do a lot of innovating - last quarter they dropped $1.5 Billion on R&D and they get results from that investment.

Take a look at the Keynote Speech were Apple is innovating in both the software/systems side and in hardware. On the software/system side their ResearchKit for the medical field will blow the minds of people who understand the current environment. IMO the crowds were even more enthusiastic on this new Kit than they were on the watch, and they loved the watch

On the hardware side go to the discussions of the new MacBook and look at the engineering innovations (like re-inventing the keyboard and the new layered batteries). There is major innovations in engineering from that $500 million a month investment.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Most people don't have time to figure out how to set up a handheld computer.

Most people get it set up for the way they want to use it. If they don't understand how to set up or use a feature there will be a lot of friends around who do.

L0VE2FLY · Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
Apple will need help on the Car part, but Apple has always been rather good at sourcing parts.

2020 may see the first semi autonomous car from them, but it will be interesting to see what happens with them and the car manufacturer's. I almost see Apple as trying to actually sell them the brains of the car and let them do what they do best and build cars.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Apple would be better off teaming up with an existing manufacturer.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
They don't even need to build the car themselves, in Europe there are several companies who contract manufacture vehicles, Valmet, Manga, Heuliez are three of them. Apple design it, someone else builds it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
That is an option. After Ben Lexcen's design won the America's Cup (after 132 years i US hands) Lexcen did some work with Toyota, resulting in a long line of patents. A lot this those innovations went into early Commodores and the Toyota Lexcen, and can still be seen today in the Lexus.

They should team up with Samsung Motors!

They have been making cars for years and just like Nissan are partly owned by the Renault Group so they can sell them at Nissan dealerships in the US.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
From my POV as a car enthusiast, an autonomous car will be a game changer for what it offers, but it will fundamentally change our priorities when buying a car. No need for power, who cares about looks, etc. You'll want something comfortable, connected, safe.

Looks will always be important to most car buyers.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I am also a car guy and self driving cars scare me. I love driving and I would hate to give it up. I think self driving cars will be just like the gun issue in the USA. Many of us gun rights people always say "from my cold dead hands" and I guarantee millions of Americans, regardless political persuasion, will say the same thing in regards to their ability to drive their car.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 10):
The day autonomous cars can't be driven manually anymore will be a sad day if it ever happens. I'll keep driving manually for rest of my life if I can, it's one of the few enjoyable things a modern society can offer.

Don't worry guys, autonomous cars won't completely replace our cars any time soon, even if it happens in our lifetime we'll be too old to drive by then!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Most people don't have time to figure out how to set up a handheld computer.

I think most people struggle with technology because of laziness not a lack of time, either way it's great for Apple!

rwessel · Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I am also a car guy and self driving cars scare me. I love driving and I would hate to give it up. I think self driving cars will be just like the gun issue in the USA. Many of us gun rights people always say "from my cold dead hands" and I guarantee millions of Americans, regardless political persuasion, will say the same thing in regards to their ability to drive their car.

I enjoy driving, but I get little enjoyment out of my commute to work. We just moved the office, but over the last 29 years, I've driven up and down that same road (or one of the adjacent ones if there's construction) on the order of 15-20,000 times. This was not a win for my life.

But many people don't particularly enjoy driving, or can't (think of the vast population of seniors, or kids), and an autonomous car has loads of other possibilities. After it drives you to work, it can go home, and drive your spouse to work, then the kid to school, then pick up the kid after school and take them to soccer practice. You don't have to park it either - it can drop you at the front door, and go park itself. For a lot of people, an autonomous car will contribute significantly to their lives.

Kiwirob · Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
A lot this those innovations went into early Commodores and the Toyota Lexcen, and can still be seen today in the Lexus.

This POS is a Toyota Lexcen.

It's a rebadged Holden Commodore VN

The VN Commodore was a widened Opel Senator B

I don't believe for 1 second that Toyota borrowed anything from this shitty design to use on the Lexus, nor do I think Lexcen had any input into the design other than allowing Toyota to use his name on their version.

[Edited 2015-03-11 04:57:01]

[Edited 2015-03-11 04:59:21]

falstaff · Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
Apple design it, someone else builds it.

They will need a lot of talent, that they do not have, to do that. Apple is good at software and small hardware. I doubt they have any experience in HVAC, steering systems, powertrain management, braking systems, transmission technology. They could contract that stuff out, but then they really wouldn't be building a car, if they outsource all of the design.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
Or buy one? It would be a quick way to the market with established dealers using Apple improvements?

Buying an established company would be the best way to go. Car building is not Apple's core business. What kind of improvements could they make outside of entertainment and connectivity. How could Apple improve in braking or cornering performance? They aren't in that business.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 10):
I'll keep driving manually for rest of my life if I can,

I enjoy driving my 1978 Ford F-100. No computers, no power assist, manual transmission.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 10):
If our society ever reaches the point where people are slaves of public transport and self driving "private" cars I'll definitely emigrate to some poor, backward place where people still have their freedom.

I may have to as well. When it gets to that point some backward 3rd world country in Africa may have more personal freedom than the western world.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
This POS is a Toyota Lexcen.

It reminds me of a 1986 Ford Taurus, which looking back was a turd.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
I realise this but plenty of people start making cars every year, some succeed, in this group I would include Tesla and McLaren, both significantly smaller companies than Apple.

Those companies are specifically in the car business and they started out in that business. They began small and worked their way into the business and are still working their way into the business.

Apple may never even try to build a car; the Icar may very well be an exercise for the engineers, to get the creative juices flowing and to generate publicity. If that is the case it wouldn't be the first; Alcoa built a car in the 1970s. They never built cars but the exercise got automotive engineers and consumers talking about the possibilities of aluminum.

Kiwirob · Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
They will need a lot of talent, that they do not have, to do that. Apple is good at software and small hardware. I doubt they have any experience in HVAC, steering systems, powertrain management, braking systems, transmission technology. They could contract that stuff out, but then they really wouldn't be building a car, if they outsource all of the design.

As per the article I linked above, Apple are already hiring automotive engineers, they will buy the talent, just like existing car manufacturers do. A lot of the items you have listed above are already outsourced by the big motor manufacturers to the component industry. Not many car companies built there own transmissions, brake systems, steering.....

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
Those companies are specifically in the car business and they started out in that business. They began small and worked their way into the business and are still working their way into the business.

Tesla was a startup, McLaren is an F1 team, both started building vehicles from scratch, just like Apple will, if they decide to build a car. If I was Apple I'd design the vehicle then farm out production to someone like Magna or Valmet. They already do this with most of the items they make.

Aesma · Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 14):
I enjoy driving, but I get little enjoyment out of my commute to work.

Exactly. Well, in fact I do enjoy it since I've taken a job 3Km from home, but I'd like to buy a house, with a nice garden, and for that I'd need to either be a millionaire or to live farther from my job. I can't see myself spending more than two hours of my life every day in traffic, though. Unless I could work during that time, or be on here, or watch my favorite TV show...

Autonomous cars also have the potential to reduce traffic itself. Bumper to bumper at max speed, anyone ?

falstaff · Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
Not many car companies built there own transmissions, brake systems, steering.....

GM and Ford both design transmissions. A lot of suppliers were once part of the major car builders, and not very long ago. I doubt very much that a company like American Axle or Delphi could have just broken into the market. Most major suppliers got a lot of their talent, facilities and infrastructure from the major manufactures, particularly in the US and Canada.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
just like Apple will, if they decide to build a car.

Yes, but those other firms are entirely in the car business. To be a good car builder Apple would have to focus on just that. What they are known to be good at and the car business are too different. Becoming too diverse of a manufacturer can be a bad thing, because you don't do anything well. That is what happened at GM. They did well in the locomotive and bus business for decades, but things changed. The Hughes Aircraft purchase didn't work out so well, except that led to On Star. Boeing or Airbus would probably do a great job at building a car, they have skilled work forces and have manufacturing experience. They sell and service their products all over the world. They have no reason to get into the business because they are focused on what they do best. I think Apple would shoot themselves in the foot trying to get into the car business. Apple Technology in an existing car make, would be a great deal for both companies.

Aesma · Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:50 pm

Current electric cars all use various plugs and charging stations so at least Apple can't do worse in that regard. I'm not interested in having Apple technology in my car if that means I must buy other Apple stuff to use it.

falstaff · Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 20):
I'm not interested in having Apple technology in my car if that means I must buy other Apple stuff to use it.

I have a 2014 Cadillac ATS and I can control my iPod (or iPhone if I had one) with car's factory stereo. The owners manual states that Apple products must be used for a device to controlled through the car's audio system. The USB ports in the car will charge my iPod, but not my Droid Phone. The ports will charge an iPhone without issue. I do find that annoying because the USB ports in my 2012 Buick Verano would charge anything.

Revelation · Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
If Musk with his vastly smaller pocket book can do it, Apple will have no problems, they have already started hiring automotive engineers. If I was a legacy automobile company I would start worrying, I think if anyone can bust into the auto market and make a huge splash it will be Apple, Tesla will be nothing by comparisson.

No problems? LOL! Tesla's been at it since 2003. Apple cannot just throw money at the problem and expect to catch up any time soon. If so, why not an Apple B737/A320 clone? Just call up Spirit and the rest of the supply chain and have them build some parts and it's all sorted - NOT!

Still amazed that Apple hasn't gone after the living room with a real Apple TV instead of that slow wall wart that they've been shifting for years now.

I just can't see how an automobile will provide the kind of margins that Apple is used to enjoying.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
Apple may be a big company with a lot money, but they are not a car builder. Automobile manufacturing is a lot different than making hand held devices.

Yes. Leveraging contract manufacturers might buy some time, but doing so means you're sacrificing profits and probably not really adding value.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 21):

I have a 2014 Cadillac ATS and I can control my iPod (or iPhone if I had one) with car's factory stereo. The owners manual states that Apple products must be used for a device to controlled through the car's audio system. The USB ports in the car will charge my iPod, but not my Droid Phone. The ports will charge an iPhone without issue. I do find that annoying because the USB ports in my 2012 Buick Verano would charge anything.

Yep, Apple's been known for "lock in" right from the start.

Sadly it seems Samsung is doing its best to follow in their steps with the S6.

Scratch Caddy off my car shopping list...

Kiwirob · Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:06 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
No problems? LOL! Tesla's been at it since 2003. Apple cannot just throw money at the problem and expect to catch up any time soon.

Well I still disagree, hire the right people, use the component suppliers and contract out manufacture. As for Tesla they opensourced all their IP, that gives Apple a start right there.

L0VE2FLY · Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
Apple may never even try to build a car; the Icar may very well be an exercise for the engineers, to get the creative juices flowing and to generate publicity. If that is the case it wouldn't be the first; Alcoa built a car in the 1970s. They never built cars but the exercise got automotive engineers and consumers talking about the possibilities of aluminum.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 19):
Yes, but those other firms are entirely in the car business. To be a good car builder Apple would have to focus on just that. What they are known to be good at and the car business are too different. Becoming too diverse of a manufacturer can be a bad thing, because you don't do anything well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
No problems? LOL! Tesla's been at it since 2003. Apple cannot just throw money at the problem and expect to catch up any time soon.

Maybe Apple's long term goal is to become a huge conglomerate with a diverse portfolio, something like GE & Samsung, which owns Samsung Electronics Apple's main competitor, they have been building cars since the 1990s and they even tried to venture into the aerospace industry by attempting a take over of Fokker.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
Still amazed that Apple hasn't gone after the living room with a real Apple TV instead of that slow wall wart that they've been shifting for years now.

If Apple is serious about introducing new products, TVs and other home appliances make more sense than a car.

offloaded · Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:53 pm

I've got an iBroken iPad which iDropped and it won't come back on.

I can just imagine someone on a bike bumping into you in traffic and the whole thing has a "critical error" ...

falstaff · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:04 pm

Something to think about is "automotive grade" software and hardware. There was a report about this a few days ago on WWJ, in Detroit. Some people wonder why the consumer electronics industry moves faster than the automotive industry. Automotive software can't have bugs in it. You can't have a car that locks up sometimes. You can't continually update the software in a car over a wireless network (yet), even if you could some vehicles will be places where that doesn't reach. Sure car companies have recalls. but how often is that for a software related issue? Automobiles electronics and software must work perfectly in cold and hot temperatures. A few weeks back I left my phone in my car over night and the air temperature dropped to -23F. When I retrieved it in the morning the temperature had risen to -10F. My phone would not power up, even plugged in. My iPod would not work at that temperature either. My car fired right up and ran perfectly. The car's electronics worked as good as they do at 70F. Once my phone and iPod warmed up they worked great.

Apple may know a lot about software, but they will likely have to hire people who know automotive software/electronics or contract that work too.

Kiwirob · Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 26):
You can't continually update the software in a car over a wireless network (yet), even if you could some vehicles will be places where that doesn't reach.

What do you think Tesla are doing right now, every Tesla gets software upgrades over wireless every few months or so. Some of them are major upgrades.

Flighty · Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 25):
Some people wonder why the consumer electronics industry moves faster than the automotive industry. Automotive software can't have bugs in it.

This is very correct but KiwiRob is also correct. Wireless updates happen now.

Apple does the same thing and you know what, Apple products were way more robust 5-7 years ago before they started this mad annual software release schedule and its endemic "we'll push bug fixes out later, after our chilling in Tahiti for a couple of months" attitude. I have seen 2 Macs bricked in the last 6 months, one of them a brand new iMac retina 27 loading off Time Machine. Bricked and returned. That would never happen with old Apple. Beware OS 10.10 updates, they will brick your computer as often as not. It is not failure tolerant (i.e. once the update begins, either your hard disk checks out perfectly, or the machine will brick.) It is ridiculous.

Obviously Boeing 787 software had to be validated for a really REALLY long time. And then validated again and twinned with an auxiliary software build.

That's how weather forecasts work too, which is cool. They run 5-7 models and wait until at least 4 or 5 converge on an answer.

This careening trainwreck brought to you by your friend Flighty.

notaxonrotax · Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 2):

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 1):
Yawn. Once again, Apple fails to innovate.

Yes but there's has the apple symbol on it.
Which means there will be thousands of skin tight jeans wearing, tech dependant effeminate Applewhores lining up to buy the iCar!

I have a question: I like the MAC computers because the hardware is durable, I don't miss the anti virus software, the software is really stable and I find the user experience (track pad etc) very user friendly! Does this make me an Apple whore?

No Tax On Rotax

Ken777 · Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 1):
Once again, Apple fails to innovate

Look at the patents they have been receiving, their $500,000,000 a MONTH R&D budget and the products they develop and then have the competition copy (starting with the '84 Mac and Windows 3.1 that followed). Apple has been doing a pretty good job of moving the markets they join

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):
Apple will need help on the Car part, but Apple has always been rather good at sourcing parts.

I don't believe you'll actually see an iCar, but I do believe that Apple will end up receiving significant royalties from the auto industry.

Quoting garpd (Reply 2):
Which means there will be thousands of skin tight jeans wearing, tech dependant effeminate Applewhores lining up to buy the iCar!

You would not want to see this overaged (70) overweight guy in skin tight jeans.

And just because the prostate was lost to prostate cancer I'll pass on being effeminate.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
If I was a legacy automobile company I would start worrying

I wouldn't be worrying about Apple, I would be worrying about the growing gap between minimum wage, average non-college grad wages and the costs of a new car. Looking back when my first car in '68 was a $3,200 BMW and the wife's '70 Corolla was $1,800 my guess is that the younger guys on this forum will see a $100,000 Corolla. (And the GOP will still be fighting increasing the Minimum Wage from $7.25

)

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
with a car costing several times what you make in a year, there is no chance.

That doesn't mean Apple cannot deliver features for the industry that generates some major revenues.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
You'll want something comfortable, connected, safe.

That used to be a Volvo.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
I don't believe for 1 second that Toyota borrowed anything from this shitty design to use on the Lexus

Don't look at the car - look at the list of patents they picked up from Lexcen's participation with them.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 29):
Does this make me an Apple whore?

Of course it does.

I used to be a normal Windows user, but Dull moved outstanding customer support to some third party company in India and the misery started for me. After an especially week of misery I sent to Circuit City and bought a PowerBook. That started my round heels years. Now everyone in the family is 100% Apple.

Kiwirob · Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Don't look at the car - look at the list of patents they picked up from Lexcen's participation with them.

As far as I can tell Lexcen only lent his name, I can't find any info of him working in the automotive industry at all. About the only thing I can remember from him outside of yachting was the skate wing. Probably one of the stupidest skateboards ever designed.

falstaff · Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
What do you think Tesla are doing right now, every Tesla gets software upgrades over wireless every few months or so. Some of them are major upgrades

Tesla Isn't that high volume, they didn't even make 23,000 cars for 2013. Imagine if they were making 10 million cars a year like Toyota. Toyota's are all over the planet and many are found in remote parts of the world; Tesla doesn't even sell its cars in every state in its home country. Tesla's customers live in well developed places and are generally well off. Toyota owners come from every walk of life, from hipsters in southern California to Islamic fighters in Syria. Every time some rebels in Africa are shown on TV they are in a Toyota truck. There isn't internet everywhere. Another thing is that Tesla will send out technicians to fix cars. If they had millions of cars all over the globe the way the major car builders do they couldn't do that. I once heard an interview with Tesla's CEO saying technicians weren't needed because the cars wouldn't have defects. That is total nonsense. You can't build a flawless product and people will break things even if they are designed well. You wouldn't believe how many parts I fix on cars that are caused by operator error, or by poor road conditions. You put a Tesla on Michigan roads and you will need a mechanic eventually. Right now Tesla is a specialty manufacturer. They will have to change a lot things about how they operate if they want to go to the mass market. I don't know if they even want to do that.

CplKlinger · Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:50 pm

Has anyone ever considered that all this talk of an Apple Car is a smoke screen or false flag op to hide something else they are doing? Apple is very, very keen on not only their image but on the image of the things they do. It's not as bad as it used to be but secrecy of a project is still big to their culture. Why not throw out hints and leads about something that isn't what they are doing to hide something else? Wouldn't be the first or last time that's happened...

Quoting garpd (Reply 2):
Which means there will be thousands of skin tight jeans wearing, tech dependant effeminate Applewhores lining up to buy the iCar!

I don't get this. I never talk bad about a Windows user, and I still have Windows devices in my home. Hell, my Mac Mini has Windows 8.1 on it which is a pretty solid OS in it's own right. Why the bashing? Or is it simply because it's different and not what you like?

Flighty · Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
You can't build a flawless product and people will break things even if they are designed well.

Tesla is following the Apple model in many ways including this.

Do Apple products break, yes. Do they fix and diagnose problems at the store, yes. It's not a big deal. Tesla does the same thing. Sometimes they fix it for free, sometimes you pay them. But you know it will be done right.

Point is, Apple does this on gigantic volume.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 33):
Has anyone ever considered that all this talk of an Apple Car is a smoke screen or false flag op to hide something else they are doing?

No, they are really trying to become the IT section of cars. Do they need to make a car? No. It may turn out to be just like Apple TV. Do they make TVs, no. The hardware is just a commodity.

[Edited 2015-03-20 09:23:26]

Revelation · Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 26):
Automotive software can't have bugs in it.

Yet it does.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 26):
You can't continually update the software in a car over a wireless network (yet), even if you could some vehicles will be places where that doesn't reach.

While there are ways to "continually" update software, it isn't the normal way of doing things.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 26):
Automobiles electronics and software must work perfectly in cold and hot temperatures. A few weeks back I left my phone in my car over night and the air temperature dropped to -23F. When I retrieved it in the morning the temperature had risen to -10F. My phone would not power up, even plugged in. My iPod would not work at that temperature either. My car fired right up and ran perfectly. The car's electronics worked as good as they do at 70F. Once my phone and iPod warmed up they worked great.

Your devices are using consumer grade parts. If it was important for them to work at -23F then the manufacturer could have specified parts that would work in that temperature range.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
Look at the patents they have been receiving, their $500,000,000 a MONTH R&D budget and the products they develop and then have the competition copy (starting with the '84 Mac and Windows 3.1 that followed).

Win3 is as much a copy of MacOS as MacOS is a copy of Xerox Alto.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 30):
I wouldn't be worrying about Apple, I would be worrying about the growing gap between minimum wage, average non-college grad wages and the costs of a new car. Looking back when my first car in '68 was a $3,200 BMW and the wife's '70 Corolla was $1,800 my guess is that the younger guys on this forum will see a $100,000 Corolla. (And the GOP will still be fighting increasing the Minimum Wage from $7.25 )

Something will have to give over time. In China it's pretty common for two or more families to share one car. We might be headed there.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
What do you think Tesla are doing right now, every Tesla gets software upgrades over wireless every few months or so. Some of them are major upgrades

Tesla Isn't that high volume, they didn't even make 23,000 cars for 2013. Imagine if they were making 10 million cars a year like Toyota.

Wireless upgrades would easily scale out to 10M autos. Think of how many iDevices download each new iOS version.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Right now Tesla is a specialty manufacturer. They will have to change a lot things about how they operate if they want to go to the mass market. I don't know if they even want to do that.

They do want to go more mainstream, but they don't want to go from 23k to 10M in one step. They are very much a "work in progress" and they know it. Critically, they are a disruptive force to both the automobile manufacturers and the dealers. Surely some of Tesla's ideas need refining, but clearly the status quo automobile industry could do with a shake up as well.

falstaff · Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
Wireless upgrades would easily scale out to 10M autos. Think of how many iDevices download each new iOS version.

It doesn't make any difference... Cars still need a higher grade of software than consumer electronics. If your phone locks up what is the worst that could realistically happen? The same goes for aircraft; you just can't release stuff that is loaded with bugs and work it out later. Sure there can be updates, but the stuff has to be reliable enough to be safe the first time.

Companies like Apple don'tt have the liability that an automaker does. People sue car builders for everything. I have a friend who investigated product liability claims on GM products (he doesn't work for GM) and finds that most claims are caused by owner or the claim is an outright lie. However there are things that come up where GM is at fault. Every car company has had issues over the years. Consumer electronics come with their own set of liabilities, but nothing like the automobile or aircraft business.

If Apple wants to build a car, in volume, they can go right ahead. I just think that it is more difficult to get into than a lot of people think.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
they are a disruptive force to both the automobile manufacturers and the dealers

I think dealerships especially, but their retail store idea may have to change if they get bigger because stores will need more space to keep more cars in stock. Tesla is disruptive on the high end of the car market. I read that Tesla sold more cars in the US than Mercedes-Benz did S class and BMW did 7 series last year. That is some serious competition on the high end of the market. The advantage BMW and Mercedes have is that they have a large service network. Tesla needs a service network and will have to have one if they get much bigger.

Tesla builds a very different kind of car than the iCar concept. Tesla is a driver's car....

Revelation · Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
It doesn't make any difference... Cars still need a higher grade of software than consumer electronics.

Yes, cars need a higher grade of software than consumer electronics. And there's no reason to think Apple can't meet or exceed what current automotive infrastructure providers provide, or simply leverage what those sources already provide. The software that is critical is things like engine and brake controllers. Those things are developed using different procedures and practices than consumer software. There's no reason to think Apple can't either develop or buy what they need. Add to that their far superior experience in user experience and pretty much everything else to do with software other than automobile firmware and we can see they can be a formidable competitor.

You seem to think that an iPhone is a simple piece of hardware, yet the thing has similar complexity to an automobile, and has some packaging challenges that automobiles simply don't have. You can always buy components that deal with low and high temperatures. At the time the iPhone started (or the iPod before it) you could not buy components small enough to make an iPhone. Apple had to push the state of the art.

The thing Apple doesn't yet have, and will take a while to develop, is the end-to-end solution that Tesla already provides. There's a lot of trial and error and that simply takes time to get it right.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
I think dealerships especially, but their retail store idea may have to change if they get bigger because stores will need more space to keep more cars in stock.

I'm not sure about that. I think they'll need to have a few demo models and some photo-realistic large screens that can show color and feature combos (which they already have), but today's consumer is pretty used to buying sight unseen. Can you think how much money they'll save if they can keep cars in central regional warehouses and deliver them in one or two days right to the customer's door?

I'm not sure having a large stock of vehicles is all that helpful. The last car I bought new was not on the lot. The dealer had to do a search and found what I wanted on another dealer's lot 100 miles away. He then had to send his own staff out to fetch the car and presumably pay some sort of fee to the other dealer. In essence his brand had a distributed warehouse with lots of inefficiencies in it. A more centralized approach with employees trained to deliver the autos would be more efficient.

CplKlinger · Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:02 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 34):
No, they are really trying to become the IT section of cars. Do they need to make a car? No. It may turn out to be just like Apple TV. Do they make TVs, no. The hardware is just a commodity.

That's what I'm talking about though. So many people are caught up in this idea that they are going to make a car, that it distracts from the true purpose of what they are working on, which is the in car entertainment and connectivity hardware that they are most likely developing. If I was Apple, why not fan the flames of that false story to cover up the real one and keep the surprise factor that the love so much?

falstaff · Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
but today's consumer is pretty used to buying sight unseen

Yes, but not cars. By and large people still buy new cars at dealerships. Most people don't like to make a $30,000 of more purchase sight unseen. I know a lot of people have bought used cars online and so have I, but those people know what they want. There is a lot more to a dealership than a showroom and lot. The service department and body shop are an important part a dealership. A lot of people don't think about that stuff until they need those services. I run into people on a regular basis that think people fix modern cars with computers alone. I recently was told that by a Michigan Department of Education employee. I took her in my shop and showed her some modern cars that we were fixing; ball joints, water pump, heater core and head gasket, all of which require regular tools. She said she didn't know people fixed cars like that anymore.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
You seem to think that an iPhone is a simple piece of hardware, yet the thing has similar complexity to an automobile

The iPhone is simple compared to an automobile. Automotive computer systems are much more complex than most drivers assume and they even control a lot more than most drives are aware of. The iPhone is an electronic device similar in nature to a modern car's numerous computer modules. However their are complex mechanical and hydraulic systems in automobiles that do not exist in consumer electronics.
There is a reason a car is more expensive than an iPhone. It is a lot more complicated and expensive to put together.

ADXMatt · Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:51 pm

Will the car have "Windows"? HeHeHe

scbriml · Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 40):
Will the car have "Windows"? HeHeHe

Well played, sir!

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