Please post anything having to do with the immigration crisis in this thread.

Copying my post from the other thread as this one is more relevant for it.

From Finnish perspective:

http://yle.fi/uutiset/paaministerin_...mistelevat_lahtoa_irakissa/8696540

"The number of people fleeing from the Middle East to Finland will grow within a month, a government specialist estimated.

According to him for example in Iraq thousands of people are preparing to leave. If last year every day two to three thousand people applied for a passport, now 13 000 applies for one each day and a significant portion of them say Finland is their destination."

Last year we got 30k refugees who arrived mostly through Sweden, now it seems like the flow of refugees might rather come through our eastern border. Through the winter the numbers of people going through it has steadily increased, many of them arrive using old cars they've bought in Russia and abandon after crossing the border. One Indian "refugee" even got frozen to death on Russian side after his car broke down.

This stuff already costed us a billion euros last year, almost twice the amount of all benefits received by Finnish students.

As a Finn I absolutely do not tolerate the idea of cutting from social security, benefits, healthcare and education of Finnish people (exactly what the gov is now doing) just so that the same money gets wasted on asylum seekers, half of whom aren't even legitimate refugees, and most of whom will never get employed no matter what.
And then there's the crime part, all my predictions about increase in harassment and rape have been fully correct.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the summer when weather gets better, asylum seeker men find the weather to be much more pleasant and women have less clothes on. I predict the next summer to be remembered as the summer of love in European history. Unfortunately that love might be rather brutal and one sided. Cologne was only calm before the storm.

The European union has announced that free travel within Europe will end by March 7th if Turkey does not halt the migrants from coming into Greece. Looks like the end of schengen is coming quite fast.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-idUSKCN0VY2M8

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2): Looks like the end of schengen is coming quite fast.

Good.

Big deal if you have to show your passport when crossing a border...  

Where is the original thread, were Lesfalls got outed as a troll?

What do you want to see? Horror stories about Muslim immgrants as a danger to our perfect European societies?

Jan

[Edited 2016-02-25 14:12:22]

I actually want to get myself and my partner into Europe. We can do it via my dad....just she doesn't look at all European.

Just because I would love to wind up expectations.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Where is the original thread, were Lesfalls got outed as a troll?

Maybe with this thread we can keep track of the development of the migration crisis with daily updates. Discuss what's coming in the news daily anyway. But because it's Lesfalls, he must be racist.  

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Horror stories about Muslim immgrants as a danger to our perfect European societies?

They haven't proven the opposite though. Stop with your "Gutmensch" attitude and check some facts. It's not an enrichment for our culture if one man cooks for homeless people while ten others steal and grope. The damage done by immigration outweighs the benefits that come with it by a fair amount. Otherwise the EU wouldn't be in such a panic mode right now.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Where is the original thread, were Lesfalls got outed as a troll?

No, he wasn't outed as a troll. He was ridiculed and bullied by some posters who call themselves "adult".

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Horror stories about Muslim immgrants

No. What we are seeing here is a total horror story of incompetent leadership destroying a great project.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3): Big deal if you have to show your passport when crossing a border...

No, it's the other way around. Not showing your passport while crossing a border is the big deal. But I guess if you never lived in a totalitarian society where the elite decided where you could travel, you'll never understand.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 6): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Horror stories about Muslim immgrants as a danger to our perfect European societies? They haven't proven the opposite though. Stop with your "Gutmensch" attitude and check some facts. It's not an enrichment for our culture if one man cooks for homeless people while ten others steal and grope. The damage done by immigration outweighs the benefits that come with it by a fair amount. Otherwise the EU wouldn't be in such a panic mode right now.

www.hoaxmap.de

Jan

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2):

Didn't the EU give Turkey €3 billion (£2 billion) and a pledge to renew its membership bid in exchange for help holding back refugees trying to make their way to Europe?

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 9):

No that was Germany I think. The EU voted it down when Germany brought it up from what i remember.

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 2): Looks like the end of schengen is coming quite fast.

You are right. With Belgium today there isn't much left.

Up here in the north-west I know that between Denmark and Iceland Schengen is still intact, nothing else. I would guess that more is intact, for instance Czech Republic / Slovakia. What else?

But it goes much further than Schengen. Austria refuses to invite Greece to meeting about the migration crisis. Greece calls back her ambassador in Vienna.

EU countries are suspending mutual diplomatic relations!!! Where are we heading? And it isn't really treated as front cover news, at least not up here. It is just considered a rather natural consequence of the events.

I am in fact getting worried for the British referendum in four months time about leaving the EU. Not so worried for them leaving, more worried about will there be something to vote about. What will be left of the EU when summer arrives? How can they vote about leaving something which doesn't really exist any longer? How many aspects of the EU are now in survival mode, and haw many will survive in the long run?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 11): But it goes much further than Schengen. Austria refuses to invite Greece to meeting about the migration crisis. Greece calls back her ambassador in Vienna.

It looks more like "the refugees are Greece's business, we don't care how they stop them. Let them shoot them. We'll cover our ears and sing 'la la la, I can't hear you!". This was exactly the situation last spring, when Merkel pulled the emergency brake to remove pressure from Greece.

The Dublin agreement was an unworkable sham anyway, placing the burden on the countries on the southern and eastern edge of the EU, most of which are not really rich anyway. But it was supposed to keep immigrants away from the rich countries of central and northern Europe.

Jan

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 9): Didn't the EU give Turkey €3 billion (£2 billion) and a pledge to renew its membership bid in exchange for help holding back refugees trying to make their way to Europe?

Read it all in http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...02/03-refugee-facility-for-turkey/

I haven't heard anything about "a pledge to renew its membership bid in exchange".

They are bombing the Kurds instead of trying to establish stable multi ethnicity, no progress in Northern Cyprus, there are a string of issues making membership irrelevant. And I doubt that they want it themselves today.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 13): And I doubt that they want it themselves today.

Nope. Erdogan dreams of recreating the Ottoman empire as a conservative mainstream Sunni state (Muslim Brothers style, where religion and government are not separated anymore), even though Turkey has large ethnic and religious minorities. Due to this he considers Syria and Iraq to be his backyard.

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14): Nope. Erdogan dreams of recreating the Ottoman empire as a conservative mainstream Sunni state (Muslim Brothers style, where religion and government are not separated anymore), even though Turkey has large ethnic and religious minorities. Due to this he considers Syria and Iraq to be his backyard. Jan

Yes and as a result Turkey is in all sorts of trouble with pretty much all sides having a problem with them now (except Saudi Arabia...surprise surprise).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/turkeys-increasingly-desperate-predicament-poses-real-dangers/2016/02/20/a3374030-d593-11e5-a65b-587e721fb231_story.html

[Edited 2016-02-25 17:46:53]

[Edited 2016-02-25 17:47:21]

[Edited 2016-02-25 17:48:12]

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 7): No, it's the other way around. Not showing your passport while crossing a border is the big deal. But I guess if you never lived in a totalitarian society where the elite decided where you could travel, you'll never understand.

I lived in Ukraine before the invasion of Crimea. Totalitarian enough?

IMO, this is all about technology.

People have been in poverty for years. But they haven't been able to exchange this much information before. Information is power.

There is no way to stop technology-enabled illegal immigration except technology-enabled situational awareness and law enforcement, including sensing who is there (who is being paid, either for work or benefits), whether they are a citizen, what is their home country, and when is the next flight back there tonight.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 16): I lived in Ukraine before the invasion of Crimea. Totalitarian enough?

Not by a long shot. Full of bureaucracy, corrupt, ruthless, yes. But a far cry from the totalitarian regime of the soviet era.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18): Not by a long shot. Full of bureaucracy, corrupt, ruthless, yes. But a far cry from the totalitarian regime of the soviet era.

But what is the relevance on the subject? Every time you fly as a passenger, you have to show your passport. Do you feel that limits your freedom? What's the problem?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19): But what is the relevance on the subject? Every time you fly as a passenger, you have to show your passport. Do you feel that limits your freedom? What's the problem?

What has flying to do with the topic? How about going from my mother's place to Mrs. Wildcat's and stopping to fill up the rental and do some shopping on the way? Without being stopped and asked for passports? For people who live in the area this is daily routine and having to stop and show ID every single would worsen their life's quality. Not to mention that the opportunities to cross would be limited to manned border crossings again. I do hope that the V4 countries will create their own mini-shengen while reinforcing the eastern and southern borders.

To the passport question, yes, I feel that the need to have and use a passport is limiting my freedom. Unfortunately, there is no way around it if one wants to enjoy some warm ocean or visit the family and friends in the old country. But to have a system making passports unnecessary and let it fail just because the irresponsible politicians can't come to a common solution to the migration problems, is downright dumb. And mark my words, if your politicians don't come up with a real solution, you'll have both - passport controls and illegal migrants. These people crossed some more way more dangerous borders than the internal European borders and sailed the Mediterranean in dangerous boats. Do you really believe that some soft internal border will stop them?   

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 20): Do you really believe that some soft internal border will stop them?

It's already showing significant results for Sweden, so yes.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 21): It's already showing significant results for Sweden, so yes.

Huh? You can't be serious. Crossing from Denmark to Sweden outside of an official crossing is a bit more difficult than crossing from Germany to Denmark, wouldn't you think?

But hey, what do I care. Your foot, your gun, shoot away.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 20): To the passport question, yes, I feel that the need to have and use a passport is limiting my freedom.

The UK economy is doing just fine outside the schengen agreement.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22): Huh? You can't be serious. Crossing from Denmark to Sweden outside of an official crossing is a bit more difficult than crossing from Germany to Denmark, wouldn't you think?

What are you talking about? I'm referring to facts. Doesn't matter if I'm serious or not. The numbers speak for themselves.

And it's, by the way, also showing positive results for Denmark, so your argumentation is not valid.

[Edited 2016-02-26 05:33:38]

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18): Not by a long shot. Full of bureaucracy, corrupt, ruthless, yes. But a far cry from the totalitarian regime of the soviet era.

A lot of those in former East Germany, who protest now against the refugees (Saxony, where most anti-refugee incidents happen, is in the former East), are people who have aligned themselves happily with the old Communist regime.
The Communists preached international solidarity, but did not let their people meet people from other backgrounds, effectively preserving pre-WW2 little Germans attitudes.

The people in the big cities in the West, who have had experiences with non-Germans since decades, are much more relaxed. This doesn't mean though that they accept everything. E.g. in Berlin in the high immigrant district of Kreuzberg, there exists the rather new phenomenon of gang criminality, mainly from recently immigrated North Africans, not to speak of open drug dealing and intimidation. The locals, let them be former anarchists (this district had a high number of anarchist squatters back in thwe 1980s) or immigrants, who came here decades ago as Gastarbeiter and who have established themselves now e.g. as shop owners (think of the Indian or Pakistani owned corner shops in the UK) had enough and are considering neighbourhood patrols. This puts the Green district administration into a dilemma: For years, true to their anarchist roots, they didn't want police to be presrnt in the district and preached that everything can be solved by discusssions and consence but now they discover that anarchism can easily lead to the rule of the most unscrupelous ansd violent.
If there is nothing happening I see the long time residents, let them be Germans (mostly leftwing) and longtime immigrants (Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Poles etc.) form up neighbourhood patrols and administer their own form of justice.

And how do we know that the new wave of criminlas are Northern African? According to this Tagesspiegel article some victims of muggings were Arabs themselves and understood what the muggers said and could pinpoint their accents.
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/be...r-kreuzberg-zu-krass/12907214.html

On the other hand Berlin state police got themselves under fire today, as, after they arrested several asylum applicants, who had attacked other refugees, security staff and police, only photographed and fingerprinted them. Any other person, with no fixed abode or job would have been taken into investigative custody to ensure the person's appearance in court. Now these people can just disappear and I expect that they will never turn up in court.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/fl...i-fluechtlingsheimen/13021472.html

No wonder German police is regarded as soft and inefficient by many foreign criminals! According to a Morroccan colleague somebody arrested under similar circumstances on Morrocco will first be beaten up by the police and then thrown into a really bad and overcrowded prison cell, with cockroaches runnuing around.

Jan

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 23): The UK economy is doing just fine outside the schengen agreement.

The UK is not in position to take full advantage of Schengen anyway.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24): What are you talking about? I'm referring to facts. Doesn't matter if I'm serious or not. The numbers speak for themselves.

I'm referring to geography.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 24): And it's, by the way, also showing positive results for Denmark, so your argumentation is not valid.

So it was only the impact of border controls? The winter conditions, slowing down the flood elsewhere and changes in policy had no effect whatsoever?

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 26): I'm referring to geography

Yes, and that's where your argumentation fails.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 26): So it was only the impact of border controls?

Did I say that it was only due to border control?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 27): Yes, and that's where your argumentation fails.

Yes, because to cross a non-existent line on the map is exactly the same as cross a body of (cold) water. But you can continue to believe whatever you want. I personally hope you're right and not me. but it would be a simple solution to a complex problem and these usually don't work.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 27): Did I say that it was only due to border control?

You used it to support your claim about the necessity of border controls.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22): Huh? You can't be serious. Crossing from Denmark to Sweden outside of an official crossing is a bit more difficult than crossing from Germany to Denmark, wouldn't you think?

Actually it's pretty easy, I have a Swedish colleague who often takes his boat to Denmark, mainly in the weekends to buy booze, he lives just outside Malmo and can get to Denmark in about 25 minutes, lots of Swedes and Danes do this.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25): The people in the big cities in the West, who have had experiences with non-Germans since decades, are much more relaxed.

You need to get out an talk to a few more Germans, the guys in our Bremen office don't have anything nice to say about the situation, and I was in a meeting with one of our suppliers in Hamburg in December and they were also pretty negative.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 28): because to cross a non-existent line on the map is exactly the same as cross a body of (cold) water. But you can continue to believe whatever you want. I personally hope you're right and not me. but it would be a simple solution to a complex problem and these usually don't work.

Just read the asylum seeker numbers for Denmark and Sweden since temporary border control was implemented.

Cold.Hard.Facts.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 28): You used it to support your claim about the necessity of border controls.

Which I still do. Your point being?

My partner has brown skin. I'd bet a million Euros that most of this echo chamber would stamp their feet if she was with me trying to get into your country.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 31): My partner has brown skin. I'd bet a million Euros that most of this echo chamber would stamp their feet if she was with me trying to get into your country.

Since these guys are annoyed by just about anything, you're correct.

If you ever make it to my area, we can sample a few of the local beers... or other drinks, if you prefer. Partner invited as well, naturally, no matter the skin colour.  

Quoting aloges (Reply 32): If you ever make it to my area, we can sample a few of the local beers... or other drinks, if you prefer. Partner invited as well, naturally, no matter the skin colour.

She isn't a fan of the amber liquid but I'm sure that isn't a barrier to entry!

Focusing on the skin colour like aloges and coolian2, is not only racist but also terribly ignorant and takes this debate to a very low level in trying to understand all the underlying problems in inviting millions of people from a way different culture and thinking it's possible to integrate them all within a realistic time frame.

Skin colour is a half joke - although I see why my partner and her family struggle at times.

What you're saying is you're scared of anything that will change your situation. It's a two way street and there's no reason it can't be done.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25): The people in the big cities in the West, who have had experiences with non-Germans since decades, are much more relaxed. You need to get out an talk to a few more Germans, the guys in our Bremen office don't have anything nice to say about the situation, and I was in a meeting with one of our suppliers in Hamburg in December and they were also pretty negative.

Funny thing is that I AM German and that I AM living in Germany. Nobody likes "Gimmegrants" or criminals (me included) and there our police had failed big time, but unlike the people e.g. in Saxony (which has a very low rate of immigration anyway which is ethnically very homogenous, with the exception of the trade city of Leipzig, plus an attitude that they are special in Germany due to historical reasons, cultured, the root of reformation, but always squeezed in between Austria and Prussia, a sentiment, which was re-inforced by the former state prime minister Biedenkopf. Like Bavaria, with a similar history and attitude, though Catholic, they call themselves "Freistaat", free state, as opposed to just "Bundesland", federal state ), we don't panic if we see dark face, or ,Gosh ,a headscarf.

Quoting aloges (Reply 32): Since these guys are annoyed by just about anything, you're correct. If you ever make it to my area, we can sample a few of the local beers... or other drinks, if you prefer. Partner invited as well, naturally, no matter the skin colour.

  

Jan


        

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 33): She isn't a fan of the amber liquid but I'm sure that isn't a barrier to entry!

There's also a red Belgian option available. In its home country, they say it's for girls, but that shouldn't exclude women.  

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 34): Focusing on the skin colour like aloges

Quoting aloges (Reply 32): no matter the skin colour.

Yeah, "no matter the XYZ" is the dictionary definition of focussing on an XYZ.  

[Edited 2016-02-27 00:55:30]

I just got really thirsty. How odd.

Skin colour matters whether we like it to or not. I've nearly been beaten up more than once for being with one "of theirs". Nothing else mattered but skin colour.

Change is inevitable, but if you work for it then it isn't a harm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 38): Skin colour matters whether we like it to or not. I've nearly been beaten up more than once for being with one "of theirs". Nothing else mattered but skin colour.

It's disgusting how racists try to disguise their racism with codes such as "insurmountable cultural differences". Even more disgusting that, when they're called out for it, they go "I wasn't talking about race, so you're the racist for bringing it up!" I suppose it hurts when the code is decoded by the wrong people.

Quoting aloges (Reply 37): Yeah, "no mater the XYZ" is the dictionary definition of focussing on an XYZ.

Yeah right. You still to focus your post on skin colour, so it must have been important to you. The way I see it, the issues we are facing now are solely due to cultural and religious differences. So stop taking this debate where it doesn't belong, even you should know better than that but I see it as a lack of proper arguments.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40): Yeah right. You still to focus your post on skin colour, so it must have been important to you. The way I see it, the issues we are facing now are solely due to cultural and religious differences. So stop taking this debate where it doesn't belong, even you should know better than that but I see it as a lack of proper arguments.

I think thats on me as I took a lazy argument.

If you want a debate, how do we make the impossible, possible?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 40):

No matter how hard you try, aloges and co will never want to understand you, because like their national poltical parties, they are under a huge consensus pressure so that anything you say against Merkel or immigration, you're considered racist and get politically isolated. IMHO, that's the exact reason why Germany is and will keep struggling on a national and international basis, because they are unable to form an own opinion in order to start a different attempt trying to find a solution. This is a widely spread symptom among Germans.
What Merkel says goes, so the Bundestag has to find a solution that fits Merkels ideology, right? In clear words: Merkel wants to keep taking refugees, so we must find a solution to keep taking refugees. And you guys wonder why extremists are on the rise. It's because the people don't feel represented by the established parties. Thinking outside the box is not allowed in Germany. It's not a problem about being black or white!

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 42): No matter how hard you try, aloges and co will never want to understand you, because like their national poltical parties, they are under a huge consensus pressure so that anything you say against Merkel or immigration, you're considered racist and get politically isolated.

I've voted for two political parties in the elections in was eligible for. I might as well have voted for myself.

Maybe I'm idealistic or naive but I don't see how integration has to be so difficult. For both sides.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 43): Maybe I'm idealistic or naive but I don't see how integration has to be so difficult. For both sides.

So Germans have to integrate in Germany? Integration goes one way that's a fact, and the migrants have done a very very bad job so far. Germany only has to treat them with the same respect like the locals and they've been doing much more than that. The migrant's attitude of "give me" needs to stop.

I've got a good friend who works with refugees in Berlin. If you think they're getting any respect you're badly mistaken.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 42):

I completely agree. It's evident from German posters in this forum that the debate climate in Germany is still suffering a lot since probably WW2. They cannot discuss the real problems without being dubbed racists.

It's the same thing here in this thread. It's a quick and convenient way to change focus from the problems just to say that this is about skin colour. It's a simplification that simply doesn't belong in a serious debate like this. Shame on you aloges.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with skin colour, but accepting a million people into ones country in a single year - people with a completely different set of values than the ones we have developed and fought for in Europe over centuries - is a very, very bad idea. It's going at a much faster pace than what is responsible and the rest of Europe is now also paying the price.

[Edited 2016-02-27 04:33:52]

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 46): It's evident from German posters in this forum that the debate climate in Germany is still suffering a lot since probably WW2. They cannot discuss the real problems without being dubbed racists.

Forgive me for addressing you personally rather than your argument, but I can't help noticing that in these threads, you keep on commenting very knowledgeably about German politics, culture, debates and so on. May I ask where you get your knowledge from? I'm asking because it always sounds very confident, and it's usually totally off the mark. Don't read that as an accusation. I know very little about Denmark. It's just that if we had lots of threads about the goings-on in Denmark here, I wouldn't be quite so prolific in commenting on them.

For the record, taking up one million refugees within a year creates a heap of problems of various nature. Those problems are discussed every day in Germany, and I've never seen anyone being dubbed a racist because of it.

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):

Hi Rara, thank you for your question. There's a clear difference in size between Germany and Denmark which also means Germany is covered a lot more in international news than Denmark. German elections are usually also well documented in the media here, along with British and American elections. Furthermore, I've been all over Germany and been to Germany many more times than I can recall under different circumstances. Work, vacation, etc.

Rara,

as you know, whenever one tries to show a rational point of view about immigration, one gets accused of sweeping all kinds of problems under the table (crime, religious extremism, reactionary attitudes, imported diseases etc.) and trusting the lying press and government, who are obviously in a a huge conspiracy to destroy the German nation (justwhat the Nazis accused the Jews of planning for Germany).

Actually, while there exist lots of issues, many of those largely exagerrated horror stories claimed by right are based on unfounded rumours, often deliberately spread.
This site is debunking some of them (in German only):
www.hoaxmap.com

Though those from the Right will not believe them anyway, as the information comes from such lying entities as the police and the (more serious) press.

As for the Left, there are still many around, who live in a dreamland. Not all immigrants and refugees are nice, hardworking people. There are a lot of chancers and criminals among them.
It is the job of the government to sift the genuine ones from the fakes, but for the first few months they have largely failed at it. Yesterday came the news that about a hundredthousand people are unaccounted for, this means that they got registered as refugees, got assigned a reception centre, but never turned up there. A lot of them will probably have been registered multiple times in the chaos a few months ago, artificially inflating the numbers, others will have ignored the rules that until they have their asylum confirmed, they have to stay at the residence allocated to them. Many will not want to live in a smalltown in the boonies, but instead move into the big cities, where they know somebody, but tought sh*t , the rule has been made due to two reasons: a) to prevent the forming of ghettoes where one nationality dominates, and b) to spread the burden over the whole country and not just a few wellknown cities.

Others might have gone underground (especially those who know that their claim for asylum will be rejected and they will be deported.
In any case, this is not acceptable. We have to know who lives in our country. Any German has to register his residence with the local authorities, and this applies to immigrants as well.

Jan