SANFan wrote:

I'm sure I've heard that SAN is not really compatible with the aircraft (takeoff performance I'm sure)
bb

The A350 takeoff performance is not as good as the 787? PR would be the first to bring the A350
to Lindbergh, unless there's another int'l carrier waiting to start SAN with an A350. Hmmmm!

SANMAN66 wrote:

SANFan wrote:

I'm sure I've heard that SAN is not really compatible with the aircraft (takeoff performance I'm sure)
bb

The A350 takeoff performance is not as good as the 787? PR would be the first to bring the A350
to Lindbergh, unless there's another int'l carrier waiting to start SAN with an A350. Hmmmm!

KLM? AF? HU

Charter today: HA8024 SEA-SAN A332 arrives at 1320L. Possibly a charter for Washington State, who is playing Michigan State in the Holiday Bowl on 28 Dec. Watch for more charters from LAN and SEA in the coming days and after the game.

Thanks to the San Diego Spotters on Facebook for the heads up.

SANMAN66 wrote:

We were waiting a looooooong time for PR, especially they applied for SAN-YVR-MNL in 2007
before the CAT-II downdgrade. I wonder if the pax arriving at SAN would already be pre-cleared
throught HNL, like the Canadian carriers? PR could park at any gate also.

Since HNL is the first stop on US soil, all pax should clear customs there, right? So the SAN arrival should be domestic.

I still wonder if PR would be able to carry local traffic HNL-SAN; I doubt it.

bb

SANFan wrote:

SANMAN66 wrote:

Since HNL is the first stop on US soil, all pax should clear customs there, right? So the SAN arrival should be domestic.
bb

That would take a little congestion off the new FIS gates,since PR planes would be able to park at any domestic gate
just like AC and WS. (Like you were saying Bob, this could be very Merry Christmas!)

SANFan wrote:

I still wonder if PR would be able to carry local traffic HNL-SAN; I doubt it.

bb

HA,AS,and possibly WN would not like PR carrying local traffic between SAN-HNL
I already forsee a three-way battle coming, especially when HA is getting A321s,
WN making some noise about serving Hawaii, and AS with it's many SAN-Hawaii
flights.

SANMAN66 wrote:

A comment on the article, someone said that PR would most likely use the A330 instead of the 77W if they started up MNL-HNL-SAN

I think the comment was referring to the bilateral agreement and not to the 77W per se. It would be too much plane for a one-stopper to SAN.

SANFan wrote:

I know I've asked this before but could the A350 be used for nonstop MNL-SAN? I'm sure I've heard that SAN is not really compatible with the aircraft (takeoff performance I'm sure) but perhaps it would work for PR on this route.

There would be no problem on MNL-SAN. I don't know if the A359 could make it out of there easily with a full load and enough fuel + reserves to do the long TPAC crossing nonstop to MNL since no A359 had done it before.

SANFan wrote:

It appears that if SAN-service is via HNL, that would be op'd with the 350 as well but I assume that "short" a route wouldn't be a problem?

Yes, but it would be a waste of the expensive A359's capabilities when their cheaper, newly refurbished A330s could do the job just fine, even if the former has a fuel burn advantage.

SANFan wrote:

I also assume PR would not have local rights for HNL-SAN traffic?

Cabotage rules apply, unless an exception to the bilaterals is in effect (highly unlikely).

SANFan wrote:

Could PR consider a split flight between SEA and SAN to start -- maybe 4 days/week to SAN and the other 3 to SEA (or visa versa?) Or are they honestly looking at daily service in both markets?

That's possible. A daily on both will be too much frequency and can lead to overcapacity early on.

SANMAN66 wrote:

I wonder if the pax arriving at SAN would already be pre-cleared throught HNL

I believe onward passengers will have to clear at final destination.

SANMAN66 wrote:

PR would be the first to bring the A350 to Lindbergh

PAL A359 to Lindy is not a given.

SANFan wrote:

Since HNL is the first stop on US soil, all pax should clear customs there, right? So the SAN arrival should be domestic.

If it's just a tech stop, passengers stay on board the aircraft.

SANFan wrote:

I still wonder if PR would be able to carry local traffic HNL-SAN; I doubt it.

Wonder no more...domestic carriers would be up in arms if that were to happen.

SANMAN66 wrote:

PR planes would be able to park at any domestic gate just like AC and WS.

Don't get your hopes up too high just yet.

Devilfish wrote:

cheaper, newly refurbished A330s could do the job just fine, even if the former has a fuel burn advantage.

Sorry I get excited over the possibilities! But anyways, back to earth, I thought PAL was phasing out the A330 in favor of
the A350. Whatever type of aircraft they use, I'll still be happy.

Devilfish wrote:

I think the comment was referring to the bilateral agreement and not to the 77W per se. It would be too much plane for a one-stopper to SAN.

I was thinking the same thing, the 77W is a pretty big plane. I could see them upgrading to the 77W later on down the line similar to BA.
Also, I had mentioned this earlier, The A350 might have takeoff performance problems from SAN? The JAL 787s seem to have no problems
taking off from SAN and heading to Tokyo.

Devilfish wrote:

Don't get your hopes up too high just yet.

I'll try not to get my hopes up, but it's hard not be excited!

Devilfish wrote:

PAL A359 to Lindy is not a given.

I would be just as happy if PAL sent one of those beautiful A330s
our way,

Didn't someone take pics before that some of the gates at SAN have a350 markings? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't put them there if they couldn't do it.

Also, tech stops mean passengers stay on board. Years ago when I was a child, I think I took the NW/CX/PAL routes that would stop in HNL to MNL or NRT and we would stay on board.

I too have been trying to hold back my enthusiasm (a bit) with all this talk regarding SAN-service by PR; and I admit that everything so far has been very honestly presented as a ‘maybe’. There’s been no false over-optimism in anything presented by those in the know. And really, thank you for that Devil’.

It’s just that SAN came so close to getting service years ago. We’ve all seen the DOT Application dated January 10, 2008 by Philippine Airlines for service from MNL-YVR-SAN. Here’s a quote:

2. PAL has received authorization from the Government of the Philippines to commence service to San Diego as an additional point in the U.S. This application requests an exemption allowing PAL to conduct scheduled flights to San Diego. PAL plans to launch service to San Diego in the fourth quarter of 2008 with three weekly flights using A340-300 aircraft.

(I am not aware that PR ever actually applied for MNL-SEA service at that time.)

Then, about 4 days later, we all learned that the FAA downgraded the Philippines’ safety rating to Cat II , preventing PR from adding any service to the US. Then everything pretty much disappeared regarding PAL flying to SAN. (AFAIK, the 2008 application was never approved and I continue to wonder if it is still active and valid, just needing approval by the DOT? )

Now, 10 years later, we are seeing remarks, including those from Bautista, mentioning SAN, and there seems to be a possibility that we could finally see service in about a year – only 10 years ‘late’! So no matter what aircraft type it is, whether it's nonstop from MNL or with 1-stop somewhere, it's apparent that we here in SAN will be very happy!

And I can’t help but believe that the new FIS facilities here in SAN have some influence on this situation. As promised, once that big roadblock of our current awful Intl arrivals facilities is removed in June, it’s quite possible that the floodgates might just swing wide open at Lindbergh Field!

One last thing (I think.) I believe I remember that a couple of years ago, LH was being talked about and it was said at the time that they only had 1 a/c that they could use for SAN-service, the A350, and they weren’t coming to town because that a/c would not work here. That may have been when the mysterious A350 markings appeared on the tarmac… I’m sure it something to do with climb-out issues, or wingspan problems or … Now that I think about it, perhaps similar things were written about WK and the fact that they have a special fleet of 1 or 2 A340s that they can use for SAN-service, and their other a/c – including some flavor of the A350? -- are not suitable for SAN.

One thing is for sure. A westbound fully loaded intercontinental departure from runway 27 has a whole different set of issues than an eastbound departure on anything other than the amazing 787 (as JAL has proven for years now.) That is obviously an important factor in PR's decision-making regarding new west coast routes.

bb

SANFan wrote:

tarmac… I’m sure it something to do with climb-out issues, or wingspan problems bb

In my opinion, the A350 would be a terrible aircraft if the climbout was worse than the 744,A340, 777,
and the 787. I've seen the Edelweiss A340 do it's sloooooow climb, I guess the other air carriers have to be
convinced that it can be done. I'll bet LH observed Edelweiss and decided an A340 will work at SAN which
is the reason they're sending an A340 our way. One has to simply look at BA, that has already sent the 772,77W,and
the 744 our way.

SANMAN66 wrote:

I thought PAL was phasing out the A330 in favor of the A350. Whatever type of aircraft they use, I'll still be happy.

PR has phased out their old A330s. Their current A330 fleet is quite young (from RSA's time) with eight single-class frames reconfigured to J, Y+, and Y at 8-abreast layout, and provided with IFE.

SANMAN66 wrote:

I could see them upgrading to the 77W later on down the line similar to BA.

Doubtful that MNL-SAN-MNL could generate enough demand to consistently fill a 77W in a stretch.

SANMAN66 wrote:

The JAL 787s seem to have no problems taking off from SAN and heading to Tokyo.

The 788 is a bit smaller than an A359...and MNL is some 1,608 nm farther on Great Circle from SAN.....



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SAN-MNL%2FNRT&MS=wls&DU=nm

SANFan wrote:

There’s been no false over-optimism in anything presented by those in the know. And really, thank you for that Devil’.

Just in case I give the wrong impression, I don't belong to "those in the know".....am just another punter in the peanut gallery.

Devilfish wrote:

Just in case I give the wrong impression, I don't belong to "those in the know".....am just another punter in the peanut gallery.

You sure are fooling me! For 'just' another member of the peanut gallery, you have a huge amount of knowledge (as far as I can tell) about this topic being discussed, and just about everything else Philippine! And you stay very current on all the articles and blogs that seem to concern the topic here.

Needless-to-say, Devil', your input and answers of all us San Diegans' questions are very much appreciated!

I hope you will stay around this thread full-time, even after PAL is a regular tenant at SDIA!

bb

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL ... /KDTW/KSAN

DL 744 tomorrow (Friday 12/22), should arrive at 1750L.

bw50505 wrote:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL8916/history/20171222/2110Z/KDTW/KSAN

DL 744 tomorrow (Friday 12/22), should arrive at 1750L.

I thought the last DL 744 already made its' final flight? We will have two 744s this evening! The BA 744
is scheduled to arrive at 6:20pm and the DL 744 is scheduled to arrive at 5:51pm.

SANMAN66 wrote:

bw50505 wrote:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL8916/history/20171222/2110Z/KDTW/KSAN

DL 744 tomorrow (Friday 12/22), should arrive at 1750L.

I thought the last DL 744 already made its' final flight? We will have two 744s this evening! The BA 744
is scheduled to arrive at 6:20pm and the DL 744 is scheduled to arrive at 5:51pm.

DL is still running charters with them even though scheduled flights have ended. It's not over until it's over for the DL/NW 747 legacy.

I'm loving all of the PR discussion and thanks to everyone chipping in. It sounds like there are a few options for them to make their way into SAN. I hadn't seen the application before so, after some GoogleFu, I did manage to find the application folder: https://www.regulations.gov/searchResults?rpp=25&po=0&s=DOT-OST-2008-0015-0001&fp=true&ns=true (I can't find any new applications from PR for regular service to the US.)

There's nothing incredibly interesting in the application or any of the docket items included. There's a letter of support from the Authority and from one local business. I'll note that, in the 2008 application, that the proposed service via YVR would have been 3x weekly. Absent other information, that's probably the frequency we'd see at the start of any PR service.

I know WK is using the seasonal air service incentive. Does anyone know if there are air service incentives currently available and unclaimed for non-seasonal service? It's nearly a decade later but, as far as I can tell (there's no mention of incentives in the application or in the Authority's letter of support), PR was willing to start the service without incentives before. Having some available now would only sweeten the prospect.

SANFan wrote:

One last thing (I think.) I believe I remember that a couple of years ago, LH was being talked about and it was said at the time that they only had 1 a/c that they could use for SAN-service, the A350, and they weren’t coming to town because that a/c would not work here. That may have been when the mysterious A350 markings appeared on the tarmac… I’m sure it something to do with climb-out issues, or wingspan problems or … Now that I think about it, perhaps similar things were written about WK and the fact that they have a special fleet of 1 or 2 A340s that they can use for SAN-service, and their other a/c – including some flavor of the A350? -- are not suitable for SAN.

The last I saw of the markings discussion was in this very thread in last January with Scooter reporting the A350 markings. I wonder if they're still there. I could have sworn I read something about other striping changes, including for the Superjet, but I can't seem to find the thread/post discussing that. WK is getting a couple more 343s (total of 4) so that should help with their operations here. Their 333s don't work for SAN-ZRH and they aren't slated to get any A350s.

SANMAN66 wrote:

I've seen the Edelweiss A340 do it's sloooooow climb, I guess the other air carriers have to be
convinced that it can be done. I'll bet LH observed Edelweiss and decided an A340 will work at SAN which
is the reason they're sending an A340 our way.

I think all of LH's A350s are presently based at MUC rather than FRA so that could have a factor too.

SANFan wrote:

I've been looking but am unable to find any recent, clear, detailed plans or depictions of exactly how the new FIS facilities are laid out. There are the original plans issued back in early 2017 but they weren't real clear, for example, as to what the arriving pax flow will be from exiting the airplane to when the pax leave FIS-space. I know there are 3 different levels (floors) involved and, I think, 2 baggage claim units, but I'm still not clear.

I've tried to piece the passenger flow together over the past few days and this is the best I can tell. Arriving passengers will ascend to the third level using one of three new sets of escalators/elevators (one for each pair of gates, 46-47, 48-49, and 50-51). On level three, they walk down corridors and meet the Automated Passport Kiosks in an area between the Sunset Cove and Gate 49. Then, they'll cross over the concourse (walking towards the bay), descend two levels to ground level, and reclaim their bags former Claims 7 and 8 and meet customs agents. It would make sense for the exits to the curb from that section be closed. Instead, passengers would be directed west towards a newly constructed meet-greet area and exit. It looks like new lounge and, maybe, hold room, space is being added too. That'd probably help with all the people hanging out in the west concourse.

DL will send the 744 coming in tonight (Friday) to the desert (MZJ) tomorrow (Saturday) morning. It looks like we may get to see the final flight of the 744 that comes tonight. Thanks to San Diego Spotting on FB for the update:

Scheduled for a 0910L departure.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9 ... /KSAN/KMZJ

On another thread, it was mentioned that the “Redwood” call sign for VX will disappear January 11; I believe the SOC also begins on January 11, and a single computer system becomes live on Apr 25 (along with any differentiation of VX flights in skeds from any other AS/QX flights.) Essentially Virgin is gone.

What I’m wondering about is the apparent separation of the VX unit from the rest of AAG at SAN. VX has (already) moved into T2E (and according to AS.com, they are using gates 26 & 30.) The rest of AAG will remain in T1W until sometime after June 2018, when the old FIS facilities will close, and then they will also relocate to T2E.

There is also evidence that the AirBus (VX) fleet is already being moved over onto some AS routes (e.g. PDX-ORD & PDX-LAX already appear in AS’s online schedules) and this is expected to expand. (It's reported that a lot of the AirBi will end up flying north-south on the west coast on many of the traditional AS routes. This should include SAN.

IF only the Virgin unit will be using 2 gates in T2E, that implies to me that some of the current AS flights such as possibly SEA-SAN, PDX-SAN, etc., might be joining the current SFO-SAN fights in T2E once they begin op’ing with the VX AirBuses. As the transformations occur, how will pax know whether their flight to, say, PDX will be departing from T2E or T1W? Or will AAG continue to only use T2E for the SFO flights and any other destinations which happen to be served using Virgin aircraft use T1W?

Or, might AAG start a shuttle operating the short distance between, say, gates 24 and 17 to transfer pax, including some possible connecting AAG travelers, between the 2 terminals for the first half of 2018?

And btw, there are MANY connections currently listed between SFO and such points as PVR, Cabo, BWI, ABQ, MCO, all via SAN; how does AAG plan on handling those connecting pax? Are they going to have to break security and then clear TSA again at the other terminal? Yikes~! (This happened once before when some of AS's overflow flights used T2E gates...)

Or do you think this is just a non-issue? Does anyone else wonder about this?

bb

Hi!
I'm quite active in the Philippine thread, but it's my first time posting here in the SAN-thread.
Regarding PAL at SAN and all the obstacles they're facing. I can't stop thinking of an option that would maybe be viable:
What about the A350 operating a triangular MNL-SAN-SEA-MNL? That way, the route would:

1) Have no problem landing at SAN with fuel tanks almost empty, as the long flight is over.
2) Taking off wouldn't be an issue as the aircraft is only filled up with fuel to make it to SEA.
3) Not needed to fly half empty (HNL-SAN-HNL) due to no local traffic rights.
4) Be able to maintain daily flights (thanks to SEA and SAN sharing all the capacity) to make a more attractive business case.


/Alex

cityairline wrote:

Hi!
I'm quite active in the Philippine thread, but it's my first time posting here in the SAN-thread.
Regarding PAL at SAN and all the obstacles they're facing. I can't stop thinking of an option that would maybe be viable:
What about the A350 operating a triangular MNL-SAN-SEA-MNL? That way, the route would:

1) Have no problem landing at SAN with fuel tanks almost empty, as the long flight is over.
2) Taking off wouldn't be an issue as the aircraft is only filled up with fuel to make it to SEA.
3) Not needed to fly half empty (HNL-SAN-HNL) due to no local traffic rights.
4) Be able to maintain daily flights (thanks to SEA and SAN sharing all the capacity) to make a more attractive business case.

/Alex

Alex, welcome to the SAN-thread and thank you for your interest and your post. (I've certainly seen your posts elsewhere and appreciate your thoughts.)

For years, we here in SAN have discussed the circle-trip idea -- that's my preferred term for a triangle trip, etc. -- given our long-time departure issues due to airport terrain. It's been brought up regarding many cx, routes, and aircraft. We've occasionally, over the years, had some domestic examples (such as TW STL-SAN-ONT-STL) but we've never actually seen one (that I can remember) for int'l travel.

In fact, PR has been discussed over the years with ideas such as MNL-SAN-LAS-MNL and circle-trips involving YVR, LA and SFO. Of course nothing ever happened.

All 4 of your points are correct but I'm pretty sure that the first objection to your suggestion would be from a SEA perspective: "What, no nonstop service from MNL to SEA? Your gonna make all that e/b traffic spend an extra 6-8 hours on the a/c by forcing them to fly all the way to SAN before finally landing at SEA/TAC?" I can't imagine PR doing that.

Perhaps PR could operate a few flights per week MNL-SEA-MNL and the others could operate as you suggest? But then why not make the circle-trip MNL-SAN-LAX/ONT/LAS-MNL which is a much shorter 'tag-on"? I also believe that daily service in both the SEA and SAN markets would not really be necessary so a split nonstop between the 2 cities would make sense unless that would take too much a/c time. (That also assumes that a nonstop SAN-MNL is even possible, given the aircraft?) IF PAL has only one A350 to use for new west coast service, then perhaps a split would not work. (Isn't that the case?)

It seems that overall, given all these factors and challenges, the HNL tag-on to SAN might be the only way to get direct service to the Philippines to work. From my point of view, it's certainly not ideal but it's a lot better than no service at all. SAN has always had this airport problem, and it's OUR problem, so we can't always expect the airlines to spend the time and effort to make something work here; it's much easier for them to just go down the list and add service elsewhere. Thankfully, there have been new a/c and other changes in aviation that have allowed SAN to surprisingly be where we are today, with the several intercontinental nonstop routes that we DO have! But I'm afraid there are limits.

If PAL is really serious about getting some sort of direct service into Lindbergh Field, then I think it will be possible. At least we know that an A330 to HNL and back from SAN works -- HA has been doing it for years -- so that could be the way they would go. From what I read, the PR A330s are newly refurbished and sound like pretty nice airplanes. Eventually, some other solution could surface -- perhaps someday PR would order a few 787s? -- and SAN could finally see nonstop service to MNL!

bb

Please continue discussion in San Diego Thread 2018

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