JetBlueCLT
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:39 pm

I understood from the call that JetBlue said they will fully use the 9 slots that are vacant by early 2017.
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eicvd
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:17 pm

So when B6 do start Europe, if they avoid BOS & JFK, which North East US cities could see a transatlantic flight?
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wnflyguy
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:18 pm

JetBlueCLT wrote:
I understood from the call that JetBlue said they will fully use the 9 slots that are vacant by early 2017.


Hearing that 5 flights will be added to LGB in Nov 2016 and the remaining 4 in late January 2017.

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INFINITI329
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:19 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So it's rumored that B6 in adding 4 PHX, 4 SJC and bringing back 1 daily ORD to LGB.

Flyguy


That would basically match the capacity of AA on PHX-LGB route assuming an E190 is used. Not sure if that's good or bad. It would break the AA monopoly on the route and bring fares down.But I think that's way too many seats for the route.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:26 pm

scbriml wrote:
enilria wrote:
The airlines have continuously complained that the death of the 757 has left a mission unfilled that the 757 occupied.


How many 757s are flying TATL or deep South America routes each day? There are about 150 757s currently sitting at VCV/MHV/MZJ/ROW doing nothing. The demand can't be that great.


This is the pickle for the A321LR. First, the good news: The A321LR has only a slightly higher OEW than the A321NEO. Thus, for shorter missions, the two aircraft can be thought of as roughly equivalent in terms of fuel burn. That said, the A321NEO has more belly space than the A321LR. So if the A321NEO is a popular plane where the 757 is no longer, the difference is the fuel burn.

But then there's bad news: the bad news is that airlines operating A321LRs will probably put those aircraft into special long-haul configurations. They may be used during the day on shorter hops, but they will have a premium-heavy configuration and may be economically suboptimized for shorter routes.

Still, it's a better choice to keep a subfleet of those than the 752, in which ALL airplanes were the LR model.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:31 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So it's rumored that B6 in adding 4 PHX, 4 SJC and bringing back 1 daily ORD to LGB.

Flyguy


Very interesting

PHX - Never been tried before, perhaps it could work...it's quite a large market from the LA basin, and could help build some loyalty for LA-based travelers. B6's presence at PHX is limited at mere redeyes to JFK and BOs.

SJC - This was tried a few years back and largely failed. Perhaps with B6's desire to organically grow its west coast presence and build loyalty, this could help that goal by offering 4x OAK/SFO/SJC-LGB flights. Still, that's not competitive with the plethora of options from LAX (and, to a lesser extent, SNA and BUR).

ORD - This was tried a few years back instead. I'm not sure that 1 flight in such a competitive market will do much to build loyalty. I'd rather see B6 use any spare ORD gate space for a flight to FLL...

INFINITI329 wrote:
That would basically match the capacity of AA on PHX-LGB route assuming an E190 is used. Not sure if that's good or bad. It would break the AA monopoly on the route and bring fares down.But I think that's way too many seats for the route.


I think it will be an A320, given the desire to maximize revenue from the limited slot pool.

Perhaps B6 thinks this route is so insignificant to AA that, by introducing competition and toileting yields, AA will leave LGB and thus allow the 4 slots to re-enter the general pool. Does AA currently connect PHX to SNA, BUR, and ONT?
 
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PW100
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:15 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yet it shows the 757 can carry more fish (just not as far) which is what really matters.


Apart from the fact that for unclear reasons I've grown a hate for fish over the last year (oh well, maybe it's Anet related after spending so much fish time here), fish is of course not what really matters. What really matters is the cost of flying a pax-mile. the 757 being (much) heavier to operate the same mission (in terms of payload-range) as an A321 is what really hurts.

And further, if one desires to operate a TATL mission, carrying a lot of fish, but not being able to reach the desired destination with all that fish on board, you clearly have chosen the wrong equipment. If an A321 can operate TATL routes reliable westbound winter winds, with virtually the same payload-range as the 757, but with 15 -20 tons less take-off weight and associated fuel consumption, it may very well be a game changer and the next fragmentor across the Atlantic.

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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:15 pm

DocLightning wrote:
This is the pickle for the A321LR. First, the good news: The A321LR has only a slightly higher OEW than the A321NEO. Thus, for shorter missions, the two aircraft can be thought of as roughly equivalent in terms of fuel burn. That said, the A321NEO has more belly space than the A321LR. So if the A321NEO is a popular plane where the 757 is no longer, the difference is the fuel burn.

But then there's bad news: the bad news is that airlines operating A321LRs will probably put those aircraft into special long-haul configurations. They may be used during the day on shorter hops, but they will have a premium-heavy configuration and may be economically suboptimized for shorter routes.

Still, it's a better choice to keep a subfleet of those than the 752, in which ALL airplanes were the LR model.


The A321LR and A321neo are as you suggest almost identical. All 3, or just 1 or 2 of the ACT tanks can be removed as needed. In JetBlue's case, I believe they will opt for the A321LR variant on all deliveries from 2019 onwards. Their Mint configuration is already fairly premium heavy, and might be perfect for TATL ops as well. They already have a domestic config and a Mint config. And in Mint configuration, there isn't that much need for a lot of bags in the hold. I think they'll use the A321LRs on both transcontinental and TATL rotation. If one goes tech in Europe, another can be circulated to replace it fairly easy.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:18 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
I think it will be an A320, given the desire to maximize revenue from the limited slot pool.

Perhaps B6 thinks this route is so insignificant to AA that, by introducing competition and toileting yields, AA will leave LGB and thus allow the 4 slots to re-enter the general pool. Does AA currently connect PHX to SNA, BUR, and ONT?


Whoa that would be alot more seats between PHX-LGB that I think are not needed

AA operates PHX- SNA (5x) /BUR (4x)/ ONT (6X)

What bothers me about the the A321LR is its ability to carry anything meaningful downstairs (Bags & cargo). With the addition of those ACTs I ponder how much physical space will be available.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:36 pm

eicvd wrote:
So when B6 do start Europe, if they avoid BOS & JFK, which North East US cities could see a transatlantic flight?

I doubt B6 would avoid BOS and JFK.
 
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ro1960
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:30 pm

jumbojet wrote:
Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another.


I supposed you mean being stuck anywhere but at home, no?
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DocLightning
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:42 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

The A321LR and A321neo are as you suggest almost identical. All 3, or just 1 or 2 of the ACT tanks can be removed as needed.


I can't find references right now, but I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. I know it sounds like it should be, but apparently they are not inverconvertible.
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keesje
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:44 pm

The A321LR is basically an EGW version with option fuel tanks. If the tanks are not installed you can move cargo containers on e.g 2500-3000NM flights.

As JetBuddy says airlines might opt for operational flexibility and higher rest values of the LR. Not all A321 NEO's might be converted to LR's. Maybe a third of A321 NEO's, (10 per month) from 2020.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:19 pm

DocLightning wrote:

I can't find references right now, but I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. I know it sounds like it should be, but apparently they are not inverconvertible.


You might be right. I was under the impression the 3 ACTs could be removed. The fitting assembly including pipes, plumbing and firewalls weigh about 200kg, while the tanks themselves weigh 400kg. So with three ACT permanently fixed in the aircraft, it will add 1800kg to the total weight of the plane. It's a drawback, but not necessarily a huge one. I think they'll rotate TATL and transcontinental A321LRs in Mint config.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.


How many is 'plenty'? I'm genuinely interested to know.


This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but this is some of the 757 TATL flying I am seeing for Monday August 1.

Caveats:
- Some flights up/downguage seasonally.
- Some flights are only seasonal.
- Most of these are 1x frequency on the 757 in general. (AA JFK-CDG runs 1x 757 and 1x 777 for example. Only one of UAs several EWR-LHR uses a 757.) If there is more than 1X on the 757, I've tried to note that.
- I did not notate where there are additional frequencies on a non-757 on a route.

AA
BOS-CDG
JFK-MAN
JFK-EDI
JFK-CDG
JFK-DUB
JFK-BHX
PHL-AMS
PHL-BRU
PHL-GLA
PHL-LIS

DL
RDU-CDG
PHL-LHR
PHL-CDG
PIT-CDG
JFK-KEF
JFK-ARN
JFK-CPH

EI
JFK-SNN

UA (I believe UA reduced use of 757s to Europe within the past year)
EWR-BFS
EWR-BHX
EWR-EDI (2x)
ORD-EDI
EWR-GLA
EWR-MAN
IAD-MAN
EWR-LHR
EWR-CDG
EWR-NCL
EWR-OSL
EWR-ARN
IAD-DUB
IAD-LHR
IAD-LIS
ORD-DUB
ORD-SNN
 
styles9002
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:45 pm

ty97 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.


How many is 'plenty'? I'm genuinely interested to know.


This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but this is some of the 757 TATL flying I am seeing for Monday August 1.

Caveats:
- Some flights up/downguage seasonally.
- Some flights are only seasonal.
- Most of these are 1x frequency on the 757 in general. (AA JFK-CDG runs 1x 757 and 1x 777 for example. Only one of UAs several EWR-LHR uses a 757.) If there is more than 1X on the 757, I've tried to note that.
- I did not notate where there are additional frequencies on a non-757 on a route.

AA
BOS-CDG
JFK-MAN
JFK-EDI
JFK-CDG
JFK-DUB
JFK-BHX
PHL-AMS
PHL-BRU
PHL-GLA
PHL-LIS

DL
RDU-CDG
PHL-LHR
PHL-CDG
PIT-CDG
JFK-KEF
JFK-ARN
JFK-CPH

EI
JFK-SNN

UA (I believe UA reduced use of 757s to Europe within the past year)
EWR-BFS
EWR-BHX
EWR-EDI (2x)
ORD-EDI
EWR-GLA
EWR-MAN
IAD-MAN
EWR-LHR
EWR-CDG
EWR-NCL
EWR-OSL
EWR-ARN
IAD-DUB
IAD-LHR
IAD-LIS
ORD-DUB
ORD-SNN


Also, most all the FI flights between KEF and the USA are B757s

BOS-KEF
JFK-KEF
IAD-KEF
MSP-KEF
DEN-KEF
SEA-KEF
PDX-KEF
ANC-KEF
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scbriml
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:52 pm

ty97 wrote:
This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but this is some of the 757 TATL flying I am seeing for Monday August 1.


Thanks for that. It's still pretty small beer compared to all the other planes flying TATL every day.

styles9002 wrote:
Also, most all the FI flights between KEF and the USA are B757s


Yes, but it's not like FI has much choice, is it? ;)
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aviatorcraig
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:24 pm

ty97 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There are plenty of 757s leaving Kennedy everyday for Europe.


How many is 'plenty'? I'm genuinely interested to know.


This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but this is some of the 757 TATL flying I am seeing for Monday August 1.

Caveats:
- Some flights up/downguage seasonally.
- Some flights are only seasonal.
- Most of these are 1x frequency on the 757 in general. (AA JFK-CDG runs 1x 757 and 1x 777 for example. Only one of UAs several EWR-LHR uses a 757.) If there is more than 1X on the 757, I've tried to note that.
- I did not notate where there are additional frequencies on a non-757 on a route.

AA
BOS-CDG
JFK-MAN
JFK-EDI
JFK-CDG
JFK-DUB
JFK-BHX
PHL-AMS
PHL-BRU
PHL-GLA
PHL-LIS

DL
RDU-CDG
PHL-LHR
PHL-CDG
PIT-CDG
JFK-KEF
JFK-ARN
JFK-CPH

EI
JFK-SNN

UA (I believe UA reduced use of 757s to Europe within the past year)
EWR-BFS
EWR-BHX
EWR-EDI (2x)
ORD-EDI
EWR-GLA
EWR-MAN
IAD-MAN
EWR-LHR
EWR-CDG
EWR-NCL
EWR-OSL
EWR-ARN
IAD-DUB
IAD-LHR
IAD-LIS
ORD-DUB
ORD-SNN


Add to that list:

OpenSkies (BA)
ORY-EWR

La Compagne
LTN-EWR
CDG-EWR
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:53 pm

ro1960 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
Being stuck in the states for a few days is one thing, being stuck in Europe for what could potentially be longer than a few days is another.


I supposed you mean being stuck anywhere but at home, no?



Think of it in terms of the Southwest debacle of last week. If JetBlue actually starts TATL flights, it will be with one aircraft type and a narrow body to boot. Its pretty darn difficult to move a mass amount of people that got stranded over a few days over the Atlantic than it is if it happened jn the states. Take a legacy airline that flies across the pond that has a very large fleet of widebody aircraft. They have the ability to use a multitude of aircraft, all obviously ETOPS certified, from a 757 to a 767 to a 777 and so on and so on, to move a mass amount of people in the event of cancellations over a few days. JetBlue will have only one narrow body type and most likely will not have the ability to interline with another airline to help out in times of need. Its not like you can send a bunch of JetBlue A320's and E175's to Paris to help get folks back to BOS/JFK. Good luck to B6 if they actually start TATL service. I hope they have a solid irrops plan in place otherwise its only a matter of time until disaster strikes, like it did last week with Southwest.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:41 am

PM wrote:
Does Lufthansa still have a stake in JetBlue?


Lufthansa sold its 15% stake in JetBlue in March 2015.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... blue-stake
http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/ ... rways-exit
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:35 am

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 1. LGB to gain 9 additional flights starting Q4 2016, and remains consistently profitable


I've never called into question the profitability of the LGB operation. If it was really that bad, they would have largely or fully abandoned the station a la BUR/OAK/ONT. I suppose there is the opportunity cost of the capacity that is/will be tied up at LGB to consider, but I highly doubt something like LGB-DEN is any riskier to the bottom line than, say, BOS-ATL...

People throughout Southern California rave about LGB and for many the B6 brand has become synonymous with the entire airport. The primary issue has always been the lack of flight options versus other nearby airports, and 9 additional daily flights could go a long way in rectifying that problem. I can't wait to see how B6 decides to utilize these slots. If seasonality is such an issue for LGB, why not fly to ski markets in the winter? If they can manage summer seasonal ANC service, I think they could easily pull off winter seasonal services like LGB-BZN/EGE/HDN/JAC/MTJ. What do you think?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 2. BOS business markets continue to outperform the system RASM average


So we can probably expect to see more "business markets" added from BOS. In addition to ATL, I bet this means B6 is seriously considering additions like CMH, CVG, GSO, Hampton Roads (ORF or PHF), IND, MCI, MKE, MSP, STL, and maybe even YYZ?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 3. 2 of the 5 most profitable routes in June were BOS business markets


No surprise there. B6 has worked very hard to offer by far the most comprehensive network from BOS, and while some route additions probably were/are/will be pretty painful in and of themselves, that all-important FFer loyalty that they've earned in the Boston market finally seems to be paying off!

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 4. RASM growth in Mint markets is significantly higher than system average; RASM up 20% from all-core offering in same market


It's official - the expansion of Mint service is far from over. I wonder if the product could reverse B6's fortunes on routes like JFK-DEN/PHX?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 5. RASM growth in the Mint cabin continues to significantly outperform system average


It's no surprise to see Mint doing very well between BOS/JFK and LAX/SFO, but how will it fare when it comes to the markets like FLL, LAS and SAN? Any idea how the new FLL-LAX Mint flights are looking in terms of advanced bookings?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 6. Premium cabin demand across the US from Q2 2014 - Q3 2015 has grown 40%, suggesting significant market stimulation from Mint


Another interesting trend is the fact that far more American travelers are paying for premium seats these days, as oppose to getting free upgrades based on blind loyalty. Now that people are paying for the seats (and much more likely to try the competition), the airlines now have to justify what they charge for "first class" service. U.S. airlines also now have to compete for premium pax based on product/service rather than just loyalty. B6 is not only a driving force behind these trends, but also very well positioned to benefit from them.

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 7. FLL margins continue to expand, plan to be at 100 flights this winter


If they really want the margins to improve, they're going to have do the exact same thing they did at BOS. Nonstop service to places like CLE, JAX and ORH is great, but they're going to have to suck it up and add stuff that really appeals to business travelers and other important FFers - i.e. ATL, DEN, DFW, ORD, PHX.

I also think B6 needs to give people the option of using MIA. It could be as simple as a few flights to BOS and JFK, although I think services to DCA, EWR, HPN, LGA and SJU could do very well from MIA too. FLL isn't very far from Miami-Dade County, but traffic can be a nightmare at any time of day or night...

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 8. Puerto Rico and Colombia remain weak, being met with (hopefully temporary) capacity cuts


Hopefully Puerto Rico's worst days are behind it. I didn't realize Colombia was a weak market, any particular reason(s) why?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 9. Leasing 2 A321's in Q4 in order to launch Cuba flights within DOT deadline; these are long-term leases in addition to the 30 incremental new A321's


If Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are anything to go by, Cuba offers HUGE potential for B6.

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 10. Significant interest from west coast-based VX customers in Mint product


Given the huge uncertainty of the AS/VX merger, can you blame them?

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 11. LAX/LGB operations complement each other; remain dedicated to both, hoping to get international facilities from LGB soon


The operations are complementary indeed. LAX is much closer to most of the businesses and tourist attractions, so it only makes sense that the Mint product and services primarily catering to other points of sale (like BUF) are there. LGB is a niche operation that is lauded for its convenience throughout Southern California, but elsewhere very few people actually know where "Long Beach" is. I'm shocked that B6 does not market the station as "Long Beach/Orange County" given their lack of service to SNA, but what do I know.

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Some interesting tidbits from the conference call: 12. All 6 focus cities are solidly profitable


B6 has not been afraid to abandon unprofitable focus cities in the past - has everyone forgotten about IAD and OAK? I have no doubt that they would do the same to any similarly unprofitable operation today.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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ro1960
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:01 am

jumbojet wrote:
JetBlue will have only one narrow body type and most likely will not have the ability to interline with another airline to help out in times of need.


You use the word ability meaning they do they have a lot of partner airlines in the NW European area (EI, BA, SN, DE, LH, FI) but would be unable to reroute their stranded passengers through them. Are you saying they're incompetent? Rerouting passengers on partner airlines is a common practice I believe, why would B6 be less able than the others?
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:30 am

Polot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Any chance that they will head to The Netherlands, Eindhoven would be nice and I think there is an opportunity there. Eindhoven - Boston / NYC, would the A321LR have the range for something like that?


Yes, but I doubt B6 would fly there. They don't really fly to that many secondary cities/airports. Jetblue will stick with the usual heavy hitters. They wouldn't go to somewhere as unknown as Eindhoven is to most Americans.


More of the case of Europeans coming here......let's not forget that UA brought back the NCL service for a second summer. Most Americans have no clue where Newcastle is, either...it's mainly for people in the northern part of England coming here.

I personally think Eindhoven to NYC/BOS would work well.
 
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scbriml
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:54 am

jumbojet wrote:
Think of it in terms of the Southwest debacle of last week. If JetBlue actually starts TATL flights, it will be with one aircraft type and a narrow body to boot. Its pretty darn difficult to move a mass amount of people that got stranded over a few days over the Atlantic than it is if it happened jn the states. Take a legacy airline that flies across the pond that has a very large fleet of widebody aircraft. They have the ability to use a multitude of aircraft, all obviously ETOPS certified, from a 757 to a 767 to a 777 and so on and so on, to move a mass amount of people in the event of cancellations over a few days. JetBlue will have only one narrow body type and most likely will not have the ability to interline with another airline to help out in times of need. Its not like you can send a bunch of JetBlue A320's and E175's to Paris to help get folks back to BOS/JFK. Good luck to B6 if they actually start TATL service. I hope they have a solid irrops plan in place otherwise its only a matter of time until disaster strikes, like it did last week with Southwest.


You're making way too much of this. JetBlue would be in no worse position that if AA had a "Southwest debacle" across the Atlantic. If AA did have a Southwest moment, they'd leave way more people stranded on both sides of the Atlantic than JetBlue would. I'm struggling to understand where you think AA is keeping all these planes they can suddenly use to repatriate all those stranded passengers in addition to flying their normal schedule once their snafu is resolved?

JetBlue would do what every other airline does in that situation - book passengers on other airlines.
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:10 am

I'm wondering if the reason they are waiting to announce some of the Lgb cities till the fall, is because they might want to add some intl flights in '17. Apparently they should know by later this summer if a fis facility in Lgb will be approved according to this article.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-426046/
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:17 am

scbriml wrote:
JetBlue would do what every other airline does in that situation - book passengers on other airlines.


Except Norwegian of course. They'll rather leave you stranded for 4 days, sleeping on a concrete terminal floor than book you on the competition's aircraft. But I don't think JetBlue will do that. Their customer service seems to be way better.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:21 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Any chance that they will head to The Netherlands, Eindhoven would be nice and I think there is an opportunity there. Eindhoven - Boston / NYC, would the A321LR have the range for something like that?


Yes, but I doubt B6 would fly there. They don't really fly to that many secondary cities/airports. Jetblue will stick with the usual heavy hitters. They wouldn't go to somewhere as unknown as Eindhoven is to most Americans.


More of the case of Europeans coming here......let's not forget that UA brought back the NCL service for a second summer. Most Americans have no clue where Newcastle is, either...it's mainly for people in the northern part of England coming here.

I personally think Eindhoven to NYC/BOS would work well.

And the best NCL can manage is seasonal service on one carrier, a carrier with far better name recognition in Europe than JetBlue and a far more comprehensive domestic network to feed traffic through, and several ill fated/never started attempts on others. And NCL is ~2x the size of Eindhoven and based in a country with greater ties and traffic to the US.

Again, B6 is not some point to point carrier flying to a lot of small cities at ULCC prices like G4. They are a more premium LCC that generally, with a few exception, sticks to the major airports in major cities. They are not going to launch their intercontinental network on cities heavily dependent on European point of sales. They don't have the European name recognition or network to support that. They will be hitting the major cities-London area, Paris, Dublin, Madrid, etc and using their favorable US reputation and costs to compete, while building recognition in Europe.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:58 am

DocLightning wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The A321LR and A321neo are as you suggest almost identical. All 3, or just 1 or 2 of the ACT tanks can be removed as needed.


I can't find references right now, but I'm pretty sure that this is not the case. I know it sounds like it should be, but apparently they are not inverconvertible.


As Keesje mentions, the ACTs themselves can be removed (overnight IIRC), each weighing about 400kg empty. So that's about 1.2 tons to play with if desired
Around the ACTs are a few structural and system provisions : a bit of local reinforcement, drainage, venting & pressurisation, control wiring supports and feedthoughs... Around 100-200kg depending on number of additionnal tanks, which remains on board the aircraft. As a extremely-very-rough indication, that would translate into an extra 1kg of fuel burn per flight hour versus an A321NEO without the option (of course, this number depends on a great many things). Nice to save if you don't need the capacity, but not the end of the world.

Such technical data (and further details) are available on Leeham in some articles describing the LR back in early 2015.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:10 pm

ro1960 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
JetBlue will have only one narrow body type and most likely will not have the ability to interline with another airline to help out in times of need.


You use the word ability meaning they do they have a lot of partner airlines in the NW European area (EI, BA, SN, DE, LH, FI) but would be unable to reroute their stranded passengers through them. Are you saying they're incompetent? Rerouting passengers on partner airlines is a common practice I believe, why would B6 be less able than the others?


I wont go as far as saying Jet Blue is incompetent, though one could give the argument they have been just that in the past. If Jet Blue, DL, UA AA all needs assistance in moving a large # of pax from one side of the pond to the other, do you think that B6's 'partners' are more likely to help them out or one of the legacies that are part of the same alliance? I'm pretty sure UA would get priority with Lufthansa and Brussels. Jet Blue, as I said before, will do fine across the pond with bottom feeders but I hardly expect them to do well with premium flyers.

I'm guessing they will fly into secondary and tertiary European airports, such as LCY, ORY etc. They sure as hell aren't going to be flying into CDG, a mega skyteam hub, because they sure as hell won't get any meaningful, priority style help over there, or LHR, no slots available. I mean, there is so much low cost airlines and competition across the pond already, one could also argue that they're a little late to the dance.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:59 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
So it's rumored that B6 in adding 4 PHX, 4 SJC and bringing back 1 daily ORD to LGB.

Flyguy



These are safe adds that I can see coming to fruition.

I think the goal of B6 is to beef up on intra west coast, short haul flying.

While they are weak out West, the serve more west coast cities nonstop from JFK and BOS than anyone else. It isn't even close.

What they need to do is connect the dots out west with frequency, and this seems like a logical starting point.

As for ORD, this route should have never ended. It was a regretful move, even for those within B6, from the moment it happened.

I assume it will come back
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:06 pm

Not to ignore that 4000Nm still air is marginally for the A321LR as it proved to be for the 757s..

United's withdrew its 4000 Nm range 757s from the Atlantic after the number of winterdiversions started to damage the Airlines marketposition.

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1313782 ... outes.html

As Randy Tinseth says, 500NM extra would change a lot.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:47 pm

How do you quote each snippet? It's baffling me. Well done. I'll try to do the same (after some major manual intervention):

SurfandSnow wrote:
If they can manage summer seasonal ANC service, I think they could easily pull off winter seasonal services like LGB-BZN/EGE/HDN/JAC/MTJ. What do you think?


That's exactly my thought. The reason that WN was able to snag some temporary slots at LGB is because B6 treated LGB just as it does other stations - by highly manicuring it to seasonal demand. Just look at how much FLL or JFK flexes based on season (or even by week!).

Winter seasonal service to ski destinations could certainly work from LGB. On that topic, I'm surprised that the likes of EGE have not yet been tried from JFK - I'm sure it would be highly successful.

SurfandSnow wrote:
So we can probably expect to see more "business markets" added from BOS. In addition to ATL, I bet this means B6 is seriously considering additions like CMH, CVG, GSO, Hampton Roads (ORF or PHF), IND, MCI, MKE, MSP, STL, and maybe even YYZ?


Agreed 100%. B6 has reached critical mass at BOS and should be able to make such markets work. BOS-CLE was profitable out of the gate...

SurfandSnow wrote:
It's official - the expansion of Mint service is far from over. I wonder if the product could reverse B6's fortunes on routes like JFK-DEN/PHX?


I would think so, although JFK-DEN picked up a second frequency this summer (on an A321!) so it may be doing OK. In its press release B6 indicated that they are targeting Mint on missions over 1800 miles, so JFK-DEN may be a bit too short (~1600 miles).

Mint on JFK-PHX is certainly more plausible, and would be a nice complement to the rumored LGB-PHX service.

SurfandSnow wrote:
It's no surprise to see Mint doing very well between BOS/JFK and LAX/SFO, but how will it fare when it comes to the markets like FLL, LAS and SAN? Any idea how the new FLL-LAX Mint flights are looking in terms of advanced bookings?


Add SEA to that question. This is where the true test comes...how will Mint do outside of the JFK-LAX/SFO strongholds? Given Mint's early success on BOS-SFO, I think B6 is fairly confident that there are far more markets than JFK-LAX/SFO that can use a product like Mint.

I think it is way too early to read into advance bookings of FLL-LAX. But I do think the establishment of Mint on FLL-LAX - and, soon, FLL-SFO - sounds a loud message to the business community in South Florida that B6 is a viable alternative to AA from MIA.

SurfandSnow wrote:
If they really want the margins to improve, they're going to have do the exact same thing they did at BOS. Nonstop service to places like CLE, JAX and ORH is great, but they're going to have to suck it up and add stuff that really appeals to business travelers and other important FFers - i.e. ATL, DEN, DFW, ORD, PHX.


I also think B6 needs to give people the option of using MIA. It could be as simple as a few flights to BOS and JFK, although I think services to DCA, EWR, HPN, LGA and SJU could do very well from MIA too. FLL isn't very far from Miami-Dade County, but traffic can be a nightmare at any time of day or night...

Agreed on all accounts. The tough markets - the hubs of the Big 3 - will need to be penetrated from FLL, just as B6 has done from BOS. My only worry is that FLL does not have enough gate space for B6, especially given its desire to bank operations for USA-FLL-LatAm traffic flow.

Some JFK/BOS-MIA flights should also be added. They will be a home run and will further show the South Florida business community that they mean business.

SurfandSnow wrote:
Hopefully Puerto Rico's worst days are behind it. I didn't realize Colombia was a weak market, any particular reason(s) why?


Colombia's economy has been in the toilet over the past year or two. Some other South American countries are experiencing similar pressures.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:55 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I wont go as far as saying Jet Blue is incompetent, though one could give the argument they have been just that in the past. If Jet Blue, DL, UA AA all needs assistance in moving a large # of pax from one side of the pond to the other, do you think that B6's 'partners' are more likely to help them out or one of the legacies that are part of the same alliance? I'm pretty sure UA would get priority with Lufthansa and Brussels. Jet Blue, as I said before, will do fine across the pond with bottom feeders but I hardly expect them to do well with premium flyers.

I'm guessing they will fly into secondary and tertiary European airports, such as LCY, ORY etc. They sure as hell aren't going to be flying into CDG, a mega skyteam hub, because they sure as hell won't get any meaningful, priority style help over there, or LHR, no slots available. I mean, there is so much low cost airlines and competition across the pond already, one could also argue that they're a little late to the dance.


So basically, in the odd event there is a delay that causes rebookings, the mere possibility renders they Trans Atlantic opps a no go?
Moving on.

B6 has great hubs in BOS and JFK for trans atlantic. While it makes sense to go after the "other UK" destinations, there is no reason they cannot compete on the core routes. Mint and B6 Econ / Econ + are on par if not better (especially in the back) than any other airline on the routes.
 
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ro1960
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:02 pm

jumbojet wrote:
I wont go as far as saying Jet Blue is incompetent, though one could give the argument they have been just that in the past.
I don't know what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?

jumbojet wrote:
I'm guessing they will fly into secondary and tertiary European airports, such as LCY, ORY etc.

The largest aircraft certified at LCY is the A318. So here we're talking A321LR, a fairly larger bird. As for ORY, I don't think that at nearly 30 million pax it qualifies as a secondary airport (#13 in Europe), ahead of CPH, ZRH, DUB, OSL, PMI, BRU, ARN, MAN and many more.

jumbojet wrote:
I mean, there is so much low cost airlines and competition across the pond already, one could also argue that they're a little late to the dance.

Actually ORY is not a bad idea IMHO. Little competition (AF and EC), close to Paris, well connected to the rest of France.
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MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:44 pm

ty97 wrote:
This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but this is some of the 757 TATL flying I am seeing for Monday August 1.

Caveats:
- Some flights up/downguage seasonally.
- Some flights are only seasonal.
- Most of these are 1x frequency on the 757 in general. (AA JFK-CDG runs 1x 757 and 1x 777 for example. Only one of UAs several EWR-LHR uses a 757.) If there is more than 1X on the 757, I've tried to note that.
- I did not notate where there are additional frequencies on a non-757 on a route.



Acknowledging your caveats, you substantially validated my off-the-top-of-head guess at 30 aircraft as an average daily. Compare that to 767s (which killed the DC-10s after they got ETOPS in 1985) and A330s. That's not a revolution, it's a marginal increment.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:20 pm

ro1960 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
I wont go as far as saying Jet Blue is incompetent, though one could give the argument they have been just that in the past.
I don't know what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?

jumbojet wrote:
I'm guessing they will fly into secondary and tertiary European airports, such as LCY, ORY etc.

The largest aircraft certified at LCY is the A318. So here we're talking A321LR, a fairly larger bird. As for ORY, I don't think that at nearly 30 million pax it qualifies as a secondary airport (#13 in Europe), ahead of CPH, ZRH, DUB, OSL, PMI, BRU, ARN, MAN and many more.

jumbojet wrote:
I mean, there is so much low cost airlines and competition across the pond already, one could also argue that they're a little late to the dance.

Actually ORY is not a bad idea IMHO. Little competition (AF and EC), close to Paris, well connected to the rest of France.


it would be my pleasure to enlighten you as to what happened on Valentines day 2007

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2888016&page=1

presently, I am awaiting a flight on Delta, JFK-ZRH, and relaxing in the amazing delta skyclub. Its a huge club. It has more free, decent food offerings than you could imagine. Staff comes around asking you if you want drinks, food, anything you want. This club is the pre-flight experience I come to expect from an airline and its complimentary thanks to my status. This club makes you feel far removed from the insanity that is taking place underneath me.
 
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ro1960
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:58 am

jumbojet wrote:
it would be my pleasure to enlighten you as to what happened on Valentines day 2007

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=2888016&page=1



Thanks for the info. It looks like JetBlue handled it smartly and carried on growing.

jumbojet wrote:
presently, I am awaiting a flight on Delta, JFK-ZRH, and relaxing in the amazing delta skyclub. Its a huge club. It has more free, decent food offerings than you could imagine. Staff comes around asking you if you want drinks, food, anything you want. This club is the pre-flight experience I come to expect from an airline and its complimentary thanks to my status. This club makes you feel far removed from the insanity that is taking place underneath me.

Good for you! While you're waiting for your flight to a tertiary airport, take some to time to go online and check your aviation facts ;)
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SCQ83
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:57 pm

Since JetBlue already has agreements with Aer Lingus, British Airways and Iberia, I wonder if they could get closer (including Vueling on the package).

JetBlue IMO would be perfect for LGW. They could start JFK/BOS/FLL-LGW partnering with BA in LGW. That could make BA cancel that weird LGW-JFK on the B777 and still compete with Norwegian (which is the ultimate reason for that flight!).

JetBlue could work as well very well for BCN where IAG has no long-haul. Again JFK/BOS/FLL-BCN could help them developing a low-cost long-haul offer on those routes (and starting new routes like BOS-BCN) and keeping Norwegian at bay for their future long-haul routes at BCN.

Maybe they could expand in some other markets. For instance, Vueling has a major hub at FCO. JFK/BOS/FLL-FCO would be popular routes for both American and Italian tourists, there is currently no low-cost competition, and they could rely on both ends on JetBlue and Vueling domestic networks.

IMO for JetBlue, which is a "trendy" carrier and would be overly oriented towards American customers, it would make more sense to start first with major holiday markets for Americans (London, Barcelona, Rome) that some odd European destinations like Birmingham or Manchester where no American has any interest to go.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:04 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:
What bothers me about the the A321LR is its ability to carry anything meaningful downstairs (Bags & cargo). With the addition of those ACTs I ponder how much physical space will be available.

US/AA have been carrying 2 ACTs with 200+ seats for years and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them so I don't think 1 more ACT and 160 seats will be a huge problem either.
 
Freshside3
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:02 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Since JetBlue already has agreements with Aer Lingus, British Airways and Iberia, I wonder if they could get closer (including Vueling on the package).

JetBlue IMO would be perfect for LGW. They could start JFK/BOS/FLL-LGW partnering with BA in LGW. That could make BA cancel that weird LGW-JFK on the B777 and still compete with Norwegian (which is the ultimate reason for that flight!).

JetBlue could work as well very well for BCN where IAG has no long-haul. Again JFK/BOS/FLL-BCN could help them developing a low-cost long-haul offer on those routes (and starting new routes like BOS-BCN) and keeping Norwegian at bay for their future long-haul routes at BCN.

Maybe they could expand in some other markets. For instance, Vueling has a major hub at FCO. JFK/BOS/FLL-FCO would be popular routes for both American and Italian tourists, there is currently no low-cost competition, and they could rely on both ends on JetBlue and Vueling domestic networks.

IMO for JetBlue, which is a "trendy" carrier and would be overly oriented towards American customers, it would make more sense to start first with major holiday markets for Americans (London, Barcelona, Rome) that some odd European destinations like Birmingham or Manchester where no American has any interest to go.


Rome, I would imagine would be a bit long for the range of the A321. And why would you want to take a narrow-body to London, when there are many comfortable wide-body choices out of the saturated NYC/BOS markets? Now, Barcelona, that's a different story....never seems to be enough from the USA to BCN.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:25 pm

Regarding LGB, I've wondered if B6 might do a same plane MCO-MSY-LGB. It's right on the great circle route and would provide another way to get between MCO and LGB. I believe they do the same thing MCO-AUS-LGB which is currently the only reasonably timed way to get from MCO to LGB. It could be timed with the recently announced FLL-MSY as well.

MSY-MCO has gone from a high of 5 daily to currently 3 on WN and a few times a week on F9, so there's probably some room on that route. MSY-LAX has gotten AA and NK this year, but UA will be dropping in the fall and DL has downgauged its three flights, so capacity hasn't grown that much.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:20 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
And why would you want to take a narrow-body to London, when there are many comfortable wide-body choices out of the saturated NYC/BOS markets? Now, Barcelona, that's a different story....never seems to be enough from the USA to BCN.

Both DL and US fly 757's to LHR so what disqualifies the A321? What exactly makes the A321 less comfortable than a wide-body? And before you ask, yes I have flown on a 757 across the Atlantic. I have also flown on just about every wide-body since the DC-10 (have not been on the A380 or 77W). I'll take an 18" wide seat with 33" pitch on the A321 over a 17.5" wide seat with a 31/32" pitch on a 777 any day.
 
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ro1960
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:02 pm

airbazar wrote:
Both DL and US fly 757's to LHR so what disqualifies the A321? What exactly makes the A321 less comfortable than a wide-body? And before you ask, yes I have flown on a 757 across the Atlantic. I have also flown on just about every wide-body since the DC-10 (have not been on the A380 or 77W). I'll take an 18" wide seat with 33" pitch on the A321 over a 17.5" wide seat with a 31/32" pitch on a 777 any day.


Agreed. Wide bodies are not necessarily more comfortable than narrow bodies.
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:00 am

airbazar wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
And why would you want to take a narrow-body to London, when there are many comfortable wide-body choices out of the saturated NYC/BOS markets? Now, Barcelona, that's a different story....never seems to be enough from the USA to BCN.

Both DL and US fly 757's to LHR so what disqualifies the A321?


Considering how scarce and valuable LHR slots are, in my opinion it doesn't make sense for DL and AA to fly 757s to LHR either.
 
isp2
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:09 am

The 9 new LGB flights will be increases in the SLC, LAS, and SFO markets, plus resumption of SJC. No PHX / DEN.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:57 pm

isp2 wrote:
The 9 new LGB flights will be increases in the SLC, LAS, and SFO markets, plus resumption of SJC. No PHX / DEN.


Interesting. While I understand the appeal of beefing up existing markets and connecting all 3 Bay Area airports (along with SMF) to LGB, B6 is still going to have some gaping holes in its LA-Basin network. If the strategy is to use LGB as an intra-west base while LAX serves as the transcon base, then markets like PHX and DEN (and potentially HOU and DFW) need to be connected. But, with the slot cap, it's difficult to connect all the dots.

Any way you look at it, B6 has its work cut out for itself if it plans to be a major player on the west coast. Mint is certainly an advantage for the transcon markets, but the short/medium-haul flying is going to remain a challenge.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:20 pm

TK just announced that they will be deferring a bunch of their NEO/MAX deliveries. IMO that opens up the door for B6 and EI to get their hands on early delivery NEO aircraft if they want to jumpstart this much rumored TATL expansion.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: JetBlue orders 30 additional A321s, hints at A321LR, may fly to Europe

Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
TK just announced that they will be deferring a bunch of their NEO/MAX deliveries. IMO that opens up the door for B6 and EI to get their hands on early delivery NEO aircraft if they want to jumpstart this much rumored TATL expansion.


Maybe QR already took the 737 MAX slots.
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