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Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:03 am

A second Sydney airport will become a certainty today, with Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and Federal Infrastructure Minister Paul Fletcher signing off on the Badgerys Creek plan.

The Airport Plan was formulated after decades of debate about the Badgerys Creek site.

Stage One of Western Sydney Airport is due to be operational in the mid 2020s, with a single runway and facilities for about 10 million passengers a year.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-12/w ... ff/8111176

More details of the plan are at http://westernsydneyairport.gov.au

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:47 am

I would not call it a certainty just yet, but it certainly much closer than at any time in the last 50 years. We will all wait and see.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:10 am

As an uneducated American ( :) ), can someone explain to me what the second airport is for? Like an Avalon where it is mostly LCC traffic, or an eventual Kingsford Smith replacement?

If it is a replacement, will they close the current SYD? (You might see a MXP/LIN or HND/NRT thing otherwise...)
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:20 am

The main reason is capacity and location. The airport is restricted in growth and in movements due to its location. The new airport, it is my understanding, will be able to operate 24 hours without curfew restrictions and clean skin will give the ability to expand as demand increases.

In a nutshell

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:57 am

Badgerys Creek will essentially become a relief airport for Sydney & not a replacement. There's already talk of restrictions, no fly zones & you guessed it curfew!

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:29 am

And as they start to build it , they are still debating whether to put a rail link in. FFS build it with a rail link and not rely on the wonderful road system in NSW
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:43 am

This will be another Mirabel unless they close SYD.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:18 am

bill142 wrote:
This will be another Mirabel unless they close SYD.

No it won't! The current SYD site is very small and constricted and simply will NOT be able the traffic by 2030. The ORIGINAL plan was that the second airport becomes the international airport and SYD soley domestic. I rather think that has gone by the boards, so we can expect SYD to get more expensive to force traffic to BC as SYD gets more crowded. Welcome to privatisation.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:23 am

EK413 wrote:
Badgerys Creek will essentially become a relief airport for Sydney & not a replacement. There's already talk of restrictions, no fly zones & you guessed it curfew!

EK413


I know, I can't believe it, it's all a bit too hard to operate an airport efficiently...
:roll:
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:37 am

bill142 wrote:
This will be another Mirabel unless they close SYD.


No it won't, SYD is already at capacity across several hours of the day.

In my mind, SWZ will be Sydney's LGW. Lower cost, more of a leisure focus and also drawing on a substantial catchment of local residents who will find it much more convenient than travelling in towards the city. While SYD will remain the airport of choice for the vast majority of corporate traffic, some of the larger carriers will look to diversify their operations (ie EK, SQ, NZ, CX if they can get more frequencies etc) which will result in quite a healthy operation out west along with a decent amount of domestic traffic.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:57 am

EK413 wrote:
Badgerys Creek will essentially become a relief airport for Sydney & not a replacement. There's already talk of restrictions, no fly zones & you guessed it curfew!

EK413


I remember reading of the curfew/restrictions for Badgery's Creek some time ago. This is such a backward-thinking and retrograde step. They might as well mandate that all computers at the airport be of Windows 95 spec and allow only radial piston aircraft to operate out of it. :roll:
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:02 am

Groover158 wrote:
I remember reading of the curfew/restrictions for Badgery's Creek some time ago. This is such a backward-thinking and retrograde step.


The Minister was on tv a couple of hours ago, being interviewed by David Speers, and he didn't mention a curfew, he said the opposite, that there will be night operations at Badgery's Creek.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:10 am

mariner wrote:
The Minister was on tv a couple of hours ago, being interviewed by David Speers, and he didn't mention a curfew, he said the opposite, that there will be night operations at Badgery's Creek.

mariner


That's all well the minister saying that however the Labor Opposition has been on record in the past and said there will be a curfew
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:16 am

qf789 wrote:
That's all well the minister saying that however the Labor Opposition has been on record in the past and said there will be a curfew


Then if Labor gets into power at the next election, maybe I'll start to worry. But they're not the government now and I can't predict the future.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:22 am

mariner wrote:
The Minister was on tv a couple of hours ago, being interviewed by David Speers, and he didn't mention a curfew, he said the opposite, that there will be night operations at Badgery's Creek.

mariner


That sounds hopeful. Fingers crossed that sanity prevails.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:26 am

The video says no Curfew and will extend to 2 runways. To me this does sound like LGW.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:29 pm

What's the betting it is operational before LHR gets another runway. :rotfl:
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:05 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
What's the betting it is operational before LHR gets another runway. :rotfl:


Well I assume that's because for the expected price of LHR's 3rd runway and Terminal 6 they need the time to mine enough gold to pave the runway in it. :P
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:20 pm

Gemuser wrote:
bill142 wrote:
This will be another Mirabel unless they close SYD.

No it won't! The current SYD site is very small and constricted and simply will NOT be able the traffic by 2030. The ORIGINAL plan was that the second airport becomes the international airport and SYD soley domestic. I rather think that has gone by the boards, so we can expect SYD to get more expensive to force traffic to BC as SYD gets more crowded. Welcome to privatisation.

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That was how Mirabel (YMX) and Dorval (YUL) split their responsibilities too. The problem for YMX/YUL is that the split effectively destroy YMX/YUL as a connection hub for Europe-Canada traffic. No one wants to fly to YMX and then travel by bus for 1 hr to another airport to just get back onto a domestic flight.

If the new Sydney airport serves international only and has no domestic connections, it does risk eliminating Sydney as a connection hub. If I am flying from US to Adelaide, I am not going to connect thru Sydney if I need to transfer between airports. I will instead connect thru MEL.

That said, SYD will not suffer like YMX completely. YMX's decline is also partially because of economic decline of Montreal overall due to the uncertainty from possible secession of Quebec in the 1980s.
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:17 pm

An767 wrote:
And as they start to build it , they are still debating whether to put a rail link in. FFS build it with a rail link and not rely on the wonderful road system in NSW
AN767

That is going to be so much fun taking the M4 to and from the new airport to downtown. Why not just extend the T2 line from Leppington westward to the new site, plus you get a stop at the existing SYD airport for connectivity. Especially if they decide to do the YMX connectivity for Domestic / International.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:53 pm

I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?

Now of course in the context of a new airport, the idea is to build it in the middle of nowhere, and to make a lot of that nowhere part of the airport's grounds, ensuring nobody will move in and later complain about the noise.
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?

Now of course in the context of a new airport, the idea is to build it in the middle of nowhere, and to make a lot of that nowhere part of the airport's grounds, ensuring nobody will move in and later complain about the noise.


I mean... It depends. If you buy a house near an airport in a major metropolitan area that is growing rapidly and you don't expect the noise to get worse, let alone the fact that the reason you're getting your home for a discount is due to the noise to begin with, then you're the unreasonable one.

Further, doesn't conveniently and cost-effectively serving the economic and transportation needs of a major city of millions of people supercede the needs of a few dozen or hundred people who are inconvenienced by the effects? I would say yes, absolutely, it does. And if these people want to be bought out of their homes for the fair market value, so that they can move elsewhere, then that avenue should be provided to them. But the needs of a very select few (many of whom understood the noise problem would exist beforehand, or at the very least had enough information to have been able to make that conclusion on their own) should not impede the progress of an entire metropolitan region or cost billions of dollars to remedy. I think that's a reasonable thing to assert.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:02 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?


In the context of the current Sydney Airport, and only in that context, the short answer to that is no. The vast majority of the development etc that has happened around the Airport, and the neighbouring suburbs, happened after the advent of the jet age so there is no reason that people moving into the area should not have been aware of the potential noise implications. That being said the reason why SYD is so inefficient nowadays is mainly because of political interference in the approach paths to the airport and the policy of spreading the noise impact widely. It seems ridiculous to me some of the approach paths that are taken by aircraft that almost seem to maximise the noise impact whereas just about all aircraft coming into SYD could be racked and stacked over the Ocean prior to final approach.

There shouldn't be, under any circumstances, a curfew at Western Sydney Airport and there are two primary reasons for that:

1. Western Sydney Airport will handle significant volumes of freight which can arrive, and leave, late at night;
2. In terms of International flights, if you have a look at MEL's schedule post 11pm and midnight you can gain an insight into the airlines who would potentially be interested in operating flights out of Western Sydney Airport rather than having their aircraft trapped at SYD by the curfew.

Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:19 pm

Sydscott wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?




Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:32 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?




Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


Yep, the new airport will likely be the domain of the LCC in the medium term.

Opportunities to see carriers like Scoot, Air Asia X and Cebu Pacific move could occur if they are incentivised to do so, but even then they need to look at the market drivers.

The market dynamics will still favour SYD, given its location appealing to premium traffic and the majority of tourists.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:58 pm

Sydscott wrote:
Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.


I agree with that. It's darn tough to ignore a catchment area of 2 million plus.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:00 am

Zkpilot wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?


Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


I think that's a common misconception. (Noting I live in Sydneys East so will continue to use SYD for as long as possible) Western Sydney Airport is going to be closer to 2 million people in Sydney than SYD is. So for someone like NZ who is actively marketing connections to North and South America it would make sense for them to have a flight in from Western Sydney into AKL to connect people onwards. It potentially makes it more convenient for people to catch NZ so why wouldn't they? For Corporate clients, yes all of the airlines will still use SYD because of it's closeness to the Sydney CBD and North Sydney and SYD will continue to have the vast bulk of International flying. But for someone like NZ which could fly the A320 to connect into their banks in AKL, I think it makes sense for them.

Otherwise, as I said above, I think the schedule will look a lot like the Gold Coasts with, potentially, a bank of late night pax flights similar to MEL and late night / early morning cargo flights.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:06 am

Here's a question:

Will the new airport count as a separate airport in the eyes of the Chinese govt? If so, I imagine someone like Hainan migh jump of NewSydney-PEK/PVG super fast instead of serving SYD via XIY
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:12 am

readytotaxi wrote:
What's the betting it is operational before LHR gets another runway. :rotfl:


What is the betting it is operational before BER opens.

Or CQM in Spain gets a regular scheduled service.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:20 am

I do not understand the idea of splitting off freight. Much of the international freight will go into the belly of domestic flights. That is one long truck route...


IndianicWorld wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Sydscott wrote:



Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


Yep, the new airport will likely be the domain of the LCC in the medium term.

Opportunities to see carriers like Scoot, Air Asia X and Cebu Pacific move could occur if they are incentivised to do so, but even then they need to look at the market drivers.

The market dynamics will still favour SYD, given its location appealing to premium traffic and the majority of tourists.

I think SYD will be LHR and the new airport LTN. Yes, that stark of a difference unless great transport is added.

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:33 am

lightsaber wrote:
I think SYD will be LHR and the new airport LTN. Yes, that stark of a difference unless great transport is added.


I don't have a problem with that.

There's a certain snobbishness at work. A lot of people, especially in eastern Sydney, dismiss the western suburbs as Bogan (rougher/working class/Westies) country. But - Bogan money is still legal tender, and there's a lot of it.

The phrase "cashed up Bogans" comes to mind. Image

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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:35 am

ahj2000 wrote:
Here's a question:

Will the new airport count as a separate airport in the eyes of the Chinese govt? If so, I imagine someone like Hainan migh jump of NewSydney-PEK/PVG super fast instead of serving SYD via XIY


Its hard to work out how the Chinese route authority system works, but I do not see Badgery's Creek getting Australian govt classification as a regional gateway like AVV will have. who knows though as New South wales tends to get what it wants most of the time :)

As or the catchment zone at Badgery's Creek, I agree that it is significant but it ill all depend on how airlines see the return on investment in duplicating ops. SYD will still be the main magnet, much the same as LHR is in London. Any other opportunities will appear over time but I do still feel that LCC's will be this new airport's main audience in the medium term.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:45 am

Sydscott wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


I think that's a common misconception. (Noting I live in Sydneys East so will continue to use SYD for as long as possible) Western Sydney Airport is going to be closer to 2 million people in Sydney than SYD is. So for someone like NZ who is actively marketing connections to North and South America it would make sense for them to have a flight in from Western Sydney into AKL to connect people onwards. It potentially makes it more convenient for people to catch NZ so why wouldn't they? For Corporate clients, yes all of the airlines will still use SYD because of it's closeness to the Sydney CBD and North Sydney and SYD will continue to have the vast bulk of International flying. But for someone like NZ which could fly the A320 to connect into their banks in AKL, I think it makes sense for them.

Otherwise, as I said above, I think the schedule will look a lot like the Gold Coasts with, potentially, a bank of late night pax flights similar to MEL and late night / early morning cargo flights.


Not forgetting New Zealand / Pacific Islands VFR traffic. Sydney has a substantial population of both, and much of it resides in the SWZ catchment. A look at a typical NRL or club Rugby team will demonstrate.

As for SWZ traffic, I would not be surprised to see JQ establish a hub there. Sydney is poorly served by JQi at present, usually requiring multi-stops via MEL, so that it is often far quicker to go one-stop or non-stop with TZ, D7, or 5J. There is that entire Sydney-region international LCC market that JQi could be tapping in to.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:11 am

lightsaber wrote:
I do not understand the idea of splitting off freight. Much of the international freight will go into the belly of domestic flights. That is one long truck route...


IndianicWorld wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


Yep, the new airport will likely be the domain of the LCC in the medium term.

Opportunities to see carriers like Scoot, Air Asia X and Cebu Pacific move could occur if they are incentivised to do so, but even then they need to look at the market drivers.

The market dynamics will still favour SYD, given its location appealing to premium traffic and the majority of tourists.

I think SYD will be LHR and the new airport LTN. Yes, that stark of a difference unless great transport is added.

Lightsaber


In terms of freight, thanks to the SYD curfew overnight and express freight operations are somewhat curtailed. Having a 24/7 freight operation out of SWZ could be preferable in order to give customers later pickup times in Sydney. Again if you look at QF's freight operation out of MEL on its own there are a significant number of operations after midnight which I'm sure they would be looking at how commercial it is to duplicate out of SWZ. And if you have coverage via JQ or QF into and out of Wester Sydney Airport then you still have the connectivity you need in terms of belly freight capacity.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:14 am

Sydscott wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.

The only reason why NZ would be interested in the new airport would be for night ops. Most of their customers would be closer to SYD and most of them visiting Sydney aren't looking to be going to West Sydney bar the odd person going to the Blue Mountains.

I think at least in the medium term it will be an airline for budget carriers and for freight possibly for some of the Chinese airlines too.


I think that's a common misconception. (Noting I live in Sydneys East so will continue to use SYD for as long as possible) Western Sydney Airport is going to be closer to 2 million people in Sydney than SYD is. So for someone like NZ who is actively marketing connections to North and South America it would make sense for them to have a flight in from Western Sydney into AKL to connect people onwards. It potentially makes it more convenient for people to catch NZ so why wouldn't they? For Corporate clients, yes all of the airlines will still use SYD because of it's closeness to the Sydney CBD and North Sydney and SYD will continue to have the vast bulk of International flying. But for someone like NZ which could fly the A320 to connect into their banks in AKL, I think it makes sense for them.

Otherwise, as I said above, I think the schedule will look a lot like the Gold Coasts with, potentially, a bank of late night pax flights similar to MEL and late night / early morning cargo flights.


Service to Western Sydney might pick up more O&D passengers than you think. Don't some fraction of the 2 million passengers go to New Zealand for business or pleasure from time to time? If NZ got even 150 daily AKL O&D passengers, which does not seem like that tall an order, that would go a long way toward filling up a couple of daily 320s.
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VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:36 am

mariner wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I think SYD will be LHR and the new airport LTN. Yes, that stark of a difference unless great transport is added.


I don't have a problem with that.

There's a certain snobbishness at work. A lot of people, especially in eastern Sydney, dismiss the western suburbs as Bogan (rougher/working class/Westies) country. But - Bogan money is still legal tender, and there's a lot of it.

The phrase "cashed up Bogans" comes to mind. Image

mariner


I was thinking similar to that yesterday, only the other way around! The new airport main SYD, and current airport SYD, LTN. :blush: Or, the Essendon and Tullamarine kind of scenario.

I will certainly use the new airport as a CBR traveller, if I was to go there in place or preference of the current now going to SYD only option. It is closer and more accessible. SYD is congested obviously and the new terminal, well, it's new! Looking forward to it, and what it has to offer the regional catchment, in which I think it will do well there (too).

LOL the Bogans, well, as long as they behave themselves LOL! :stirthepot:
 
ozglobal
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 am

Such a lot of nonsense. Either build an HSR between SYD and CBR (- MEL) or extend SYD. This is the worst of worlds in the worst of all worlds. Situation normal...
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VapourTrails
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:48 am

ozglobal wrote:
Such a lot of nonsense. Either build an HSR between SYD and CBR (- MEL) or extend SYD.


I think the HSR will happen (anyway) - eventually.. Extend SYD, where?? :gasp:
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:07 am

mariner wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I think SYD will be LHR and the new airport LTN. Yes, that stark of a difference unless great transport is added.


I don't have a problem with that.

There's a certain snobbishness at work. A lot of people, especially in eastern Sydney, dismiss the western suburbs as Bogan (rougher/working class/Westies) country. But - Bogan money is still legal tender, and there's a lot of it.

The phrase "cashed up Bogans" comes to mind. Image

mariner

Nothing wrong with that. I just think we'll see quite a difference in the passenger profiles.

And yes, I'm aware how quick LTN grew the last few years too... And where hire property might be in each region...

Lightsaber
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qf002
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:18 am

VapourTrails wrote:
I think the HSR will happen (anyway) - eventually.. Extend SYD, where?? :gasp:


Same way that LHR is expanding, into the local residential/commercial areas. Such a proposal would be even more politically toxic here than it has been there.

And I agree. Something like 30% of movements at SYD involve MEL/CBR -- shifting even half of those onto HSR would immediately free up a big chunk of capacity at SYD.
 
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:19 am

Sydscott wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?


There shouldn't be, under any circumstances, a curfew at Western Sydney Airport and there are two primary reasons for that:

1. Western Sydney Airport will handle significant volumes of freight which can arrive, and leave, late at night;
2. In terms of International flights, if you have a look at MEL's schedule post 11pm and midnight you can gain an insight into the airlines who would potentially be interested in operating flights out of Western Sydney Airport rather than having their aircraft trapped at SYD by the curfew.

Along with that I imagine that Western Sydney Airport will start off with a schedule looking a lot like the Gold Coasts with a fair bit of Jetstar and Tiger along with a smattering of Qantas, Virgin and Air New Zealand. I'd be very surprised if the likes of Air Asia and SQ didn't operate pax flights out of there as well.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Yes, this.

When you look at the growth of air travel and demand for freight movement right now, and in the future, a curfew, it's just not a real option? :shakehead:

b6sea wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I don't see what's regressive about a curfew. Aren't people more important than flights at night ?

Now of course in the context of a new airport, the idea is to build it in the middle of nowhere, and to make a lot of that nowhere part of the airport's grounds, ensuring nobody will move in and later complain about the noise.


I mean... It depends. If you buy a house near an airport in a major metropolitan area that is growing rapidly and you don't expect the noise to get worse, let alone the fact that the reason you're getting your home for a discount is due to the noise to begin with, then you're the unreasonable one.

Further, doesn't conveniently and cost-effectively serving the economic and transportation needs of a major city of millions of people supercede the needs of a few dozen or hundred people who are inconvenienced by the effects? I would say yes, absolutely, it does. And if these people want to be bought out of their homes for the fair market value, so that they can move elsewhere, then that avenue should be provided to them. But the needs of a very select few (many of whom understood the noise problem would exist beforehand, or at the very least had enough information to have been able to make that conclusion on their own) should not impede the progress of an entire metropolitan region or cost billions of dollars to remedy. I think that's a reasonable thing to assert.


I agree. I live in an ANEF (Australian Noise Exposure Forecast) zone, and a curfew-free airport, and if that aspect of buying property (anywhere) means an entry into the property market in these times of housing affordability being an issue, then getting onto the property ladder to start with is a good thing in itself IMHO, and hey, look how close you are to the airport for your business and holiday travel. :thumbsup:

From my experience, ground-based noises at any time of day can be much more disruptive.

The aircraft nowadays are also much quieter than the old 727, 767. Trucks and trains not so much. Most motor vehicles yes. Barking dogs, no.

Insulating the home, if not already can help also, but there are many other reasons for doing that anyway.

I agree, there are certain groups that lobby for aircraft noise issues, and deviated flight paths around residential areas has been one that has been a two-way positive outcome for this. You can't have the airport completely miles away from nowhere, there is always going to be residential housing somewhere around the airport, but more often that not, industrial estates and recreational clubs are, that are a more productive use of the land and make people a lot less grumpy?

:airplane:

I both stayed at and visited places that were under the flight path from LHR many years ago, and that is the most saturated aircraft noise experience I've had, and while it was only brief, about a week, here and there, and for the most part was the daytime I am referring to here anyway - every thirty to forty seconds frequency kind of thing, at least it gives an idea of what it would be like to live in an area like that.

You brain can zone out from it, as noticed after a period away and return, but as said, the airport is a bigger entity. IMHO if you are planning an airport from scratch it is a chance to try and make it right, rather than the way SYD has become. :twocents:
 
westgate
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:44 am

Well it's very interesting indeed to see how this has finally panned out, especially considering that I lived for many years right in between both flight paths of both the 1st and 2nd runways.

It looks like instead of being a complete replacement for SYD, which was the plan 20 years ago, it's effectively going to be a much needed overflow airport which also caters for cargo, flights that miss the curfew and of course the growing population of the sprawling Western suburbs who've always had a trek to get to the current airport. A city of Sydney's size, which is relatively spread out and quite geographically isolated from other major urban areas, should have at least 2 airports in any case.

IMO, this airport should have been built at least 10-20 years ago and should have had from day 1 a high speed rail line, huge terminal and at least 2 runways (with room for many more) and SYD should have either been shut down completely or turned into a DCA or LGA operation with domestic shuttle flights to MEL and BNE etc only. But that obviously had a snowballs chance in hell of ever happening, and this is where we're at instead !!!

It will be interesting to see how the situation ultimately transpires, which will no doubt take decades to occur. Will this just become Sydney's second airport, like LGW, STN and LTN where SYD retains the vast bulk of long-haul international and business orientated short-haul traffic i.e. LHR, or will a DCA/LGA situation gradually emerge where the majority of operations eventually relocate out west simply because it's more convenient and there's more room for growth. Who knows, maybe SYD might one day shut down, considering how much all that prime real estate on Botany Bay would be worth, but I very much doubt it . . .

Connections could also play a very big part, as Australia is quite different to the US for example. SYD is much more the international gateway into Australia as the NY airports (JKF/EWR) are for the US. A significant amount of international traffic into the US flies into other hubs like ATL/IAD/DTW/ORD/DFW/MSP etc and then gets redistributed. You simply will never have hubs like that in Oz, so if a Sydney airport is ultimately where most of the international to domestic connections happen in Australia, and one Sydney airport is in a much better position to expand exponentially, than an airline like Qantas may see fit to shift all or at least the vast majority it's operations out west . . . although that would likely require a high speed rail link which I could never see happening !!!
 
jupiter2
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:26 am

People would be surprised at the number of flights that operate into SYD during curfew hours, the vast majority of them freighters. Of course the chosen aircraft is the Bae 146 for most of these ops, with a smattering of props in there, but the place does not shut down at 23:00 each night.

The new airport will be a boon for Sydney's west and south west especially and living in the area, I will be looking forward to using the facility in the future. People who aren't familiar with the area would be surprised at how affluent some of the suburbs in the main catchment zone are. Sure there are some lower middle class and low income areas, but the number of high income earners in the west is growing and the houses that come with them can be quite eye opening.

I would be surprised that within a year of opening, if there weren't 4-5 daily flights to New Zealand, as well as another 5-6 daily international flights to various destinations. I would guess up to 60-70 daily departures in the first year, not a huge amount, but it will steadily grow. The big question will be if international airlines such as EK, EY,CX, etc will be willing to split their ops between the 2 airports, I would say yes.

Roads and transport links have been mentioned. There is significant road upgrades and new roads planned, some have already started, on paper, they look like they should be sufficient, but hopefully planned for further upgrades when required. The rail line must be built during first phase development, with the connections to the main lines and without the ridiculous fares charged that SYD airport has, it would be very popular, for me would make it about a 10-15 train journey. With the other mooted rail lines in the south west, a huge growth region, the rail line would be a success from day 1.
 
zkncj
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:46 am

I wouldn't rule out NZ doing an daily A320 service to start with, it would just be an simple transfer of 1x daily flight from SYD.
 
QF1607
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:54 am

ahj2000 wrote:
As an uneducated American ( :) ), can someone explain to me what the second airport is for? Like an Avalon where it is mostly LCC traffic, or an eventual Kingsford Smith replacement?

If it is a replacement, will they close the current SYD? (You might see a MXP/LIN or HND/NRT thing otherwise...)


Sydney's current airport is nearing capacity and there is little to no room to expand, the airport's proximity to the city means a night time curfew is in effect which restricts aircraft operations between 11pm and 6am, which can be difficult for long haul flights to get to Sydney on time eg: EK 414 from Dubai has to leave on time or the flight won't make to Sydney before the curfew, if the flight is late and EK knows it won't make it, they won't divert, they will just cancel the flight all together which is a costly procedure for any airline.
 
b6sea
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:23 am

Is anyone else worried about the affect that splitting airports will have on the city? I would hope those working on this airport project are very seriously looking at other cities that have done that because there are so many examples of cities who have failed miserably at it and really harmed their cities' ability to operate a hub effectively. I hope they understand the very serious and very real repercussions building a second airport can have on a city and the risk they are taking by doing this.

My guess is that they don't, but I could be wrong.
 
thegeek
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:05 am

Regarding the freight, premium freight will still use belly cargo out of syd. It is the dedicated freighters which will move. They will then be far closer to warehouses and distribution centres.
 
jupiter2
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:33 am

thegeek wrote:
Regarding the freight, premium freight will still use belly cargo out of syd. It is the dedicated freighters which will move. They will then be far closer to warehouses and distribution centres.


UPS and Fedex both have large facilities near the airport now, they maybe reluctant to move their flights, but that is something for further down the road. The other freight flights I could see moving, with the exception of the QF 763 freighter to N.Z. That carries a lot of express freight and that industry is heavily consolidated around the Mascot/Botany areas.
 
ozglobal
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:43 am

qf002 wrote:
VapourTrails wrote:
I think the HSR will happen (anyway) - eventually.. Extend SYD, where?? :gasp:


Same way that LHR is expanding, into the local residential/commercial areas. Such a proposal would be even more politically toxic here than it has been there.

And I agree. Something like 30% of movements at SYD involve MEL/CBR -- shifting even half of those onto HSR would immediately free up a big chunk of capacity at SYD.


Exactly, Plus you open up regional NSW and Vic. along the HSR corridor, as has happened in France and other countries. This is a strategic infrastructure with many positive secondary effects. The Badgery's Creek scenario is a band aid with lots of negative secondary effects.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: Australian Government goes ahead on Second Sydney Airport at Badgerys Creek

Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:53 pm

High speed rail between Melbourne and Sydney just isn't going to happen. The truly enormous costs and complexity involved, combined with a pretty moribund political system (risk averse Feds versus risk averse States versus god-only-knows what Councils), alongside a pretty excellent air service, makes the chances practically zilch. Throw in trying to build a highspeed line through the massively expensive outer and inner suburbs to each city's massively expensive centre and, well, it is zilch.

I attended an AFR infrastructure conference last year where one of the head honchos of the UK's HS2 rail scheme presented. And he said exactly the above, noting that anything beyond 3-4 hours drive time made HSR largely unviable in western economies without truly massive government subsidy. Oh and he noted the excellent air links already in place with capacity to expand (I'm looking at you, Virgin, with your E190s, but same applies to upgauging 737s and 320s).

So the estimation that Badgerys will be a Gold Coast-esque facility is about right, I reckon. And there's nothing wrong with that. What would be interesting is if the likes of Jestart and Tiger shift all of their ops there. Would free up a tremendous amount of slots and gate space at SYD.

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