Sorry, in french only: http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=1403

Recap:

in the AT flight attendant union publication last december 19th :

"We were informed at our union management meeting on December 13 that the new A321 LR will be ordered with pre-installed crew comfort seats before delivery to Air Transat. "Crew comfort seats are intended for crew members, including flight attendants, on long-haul flights."

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

This would be an ideal aircraft for them to re-enter markets such as YOW/YHZ-LGW and YOW-CDG.

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

Looking at Planespotters.net it appears to be C12Y238 for the A310. I have no idea what they'd put on an A321LR, but my best guess would be something like C12Y220 (if that's possible, it's just a guess).

This is a perfect aircraft for TS, think of the operating cost difference between this and the A310, even at a reduction in seat count. This also gives them the option to increase frequency on popular routes to compete with Rouge and Westjet by offering more flexible packages to vacationers. Beyond that, it gives them the option to further simplify their fleet to 2 distinct types, they could go with A321neo (with the option to order smaller types to replace the 738's if they so see fit) and A330/A330neo in the future. Currently the 737 fleet is a bit of a strange one, being crewed by pilots who are simultaneously flying Airbus products (I know one such pilot, his frustration at this practice is evident).

bw50505 wrote:

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

Looking at Planespotters.net it appears to be C12Y238 for the A310. I have no idea what they'd put on an A321LR, but my best guess would be something like C12Y220 (if that's possible, it's just a guess).

The A321 can only seat up to 230 in total. So with C12 I would guess Y in the order of something like 190 - 210.

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

Not only that, but don't they fly tatl with the 310s from YVR y YYC? I'm not sure if its even possible, my guess is no, but that would be one terrible flight on narrowbody, especially in the middle.

ahj2000 wrote:

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

Not only that, but don't they fly tatl with the 310s from YVR y YYC? I'm not sure if its even possible, my guess is no, but that would be one terrible flight on narrowbody, especially in the middle.

Ha! Compared to the 3-3-3 seating on their A310, it's entirely likely that the A321LR would be more comfortable.

With 220+ seats, I think you would be looking at a 29" seat pitch which would be brutal on a long haul flight. I have been on an Air Canada Rouge A319 with 29" pitch and it was awfully tight.

With 220+ seats, I think you would be looking at a 29" seat pitch which would be brutal on a long haul flight. I have been on an Air Canada Rouge A319 with 29" pitch and it was awfully tight.

Wouldn't a dense cabin make the range gains of the A321neoLR almost useless, especially for transatlantic flights?

If TS were to acquire A321LR with the intention of using them for long haul, I don't see why they would configure them more tightly than their current widebody long haul. With the refurbs of their A332 and A333, they certainly gave them more room than before. Granted, most of that room comes from the use of low-profile seats. No question, the seat width and the aisles are quite tight, but the knee-room is actually decent. At least the A321LR would have wider seats.

DeltaB717 wrote:

bw50505 wrote:

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

Looking at Planespotters.net it appears to be C12Y238 for the A310. I have no idea what they'd put on an A321LR, but my best guess would be something like C12Y220 (if that's possible, it's just a guess).

The A321 can only seat up to 230 in total. So with C12 I would guess Y in the order of something like 190 - 210.

240 with the new door configuration.
But will an A321LR have the ability to fly TATL with 230-240 pax? Airbus' promise is 200pax @4000nm. What's the range with 230 or 240 pax?

Might the transatlantic assumption here be wrong? TS also have operations going from Canada to snowbird destinations. If the A330 fleet can handle the transatlantic routes then the A321LR would be ideal flying those routes that TS used to operate 757s on.

The A321 would be quite an upgrade in seat width versus its 9-abreast A310's. As has been said, the A321 will soon be able to seat up to 240 pax with the new exit doors and a killer 29" pitch. But I doubt it could haul those 240pax across the Atlantic.

This is the stated Airbus cabin config for 4000nm:
"The 206-seat configuration assumes 16 seats in business class at a 36-in. pitch and 190 in economy at 30 inches."
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... eo-version

Substituing J seats for Y seats, it seems 210, perhaps 216 reducing some Y to 29", would be possible while maintaining 4000nm.
So, TS won't be able to pack them up as tightly as they would like to if they want to cross the pond, but 210 pax is still a very good number. And given the operating cost savings versus the A310, it's a no brainer for TS.

Don't the A310's do a lot of midhaul flights like YYZ/YUL/YOW- MCO/CUN/Cuba? If so does Air Transat really need the range of the A321LR?

I know they do some Europe flights but not many. It might be more economical for them to just buy more used A330's for Europe flights currently flown on the A310's and replace the Caribbean fleet of A310's with normal A321s or A321NEOs.

Air Transat's current seat pitch is 36 inches in J and 32-33 inches in Y if the A321neoLRs will be used for TATL ops. I could see something like J24Y176 or J20Y180...with 36"/21.5" in business (2/2) and 32"-33"/17" in economy. (The 737s are Y189.)

Channex757 wrote:

Might the transatlantic assumption here be wrong? TS also have operations going from Canada to snowbird destinations. If the A330 fleet can handle the transatlantic routes then the A321LR would be ideal flying those routes that TS used to operate 757s on.

Air Transat has up to 15 737-800s to handle North America operations after they gave Canjet the boot.

The source document (English at the end of the document):

(“NEW A321LR will be ordered with crew comfort seats pre‐installed before DELIVERY TO AIR TRANSAT.”)

http://atcomponent.com/wp-content/uploa ... 9-2016.pdf

Air Transat will keep at least one 737 for at least one year!:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-tra ... -1.3941862

fbeaulie wrote:

Air Transat will keep at least one 737 for at least one year!:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-tra ... -1.3941862

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Air Transat has ~15 738s in their fleet for North American destinations (previously relied on charters). They are just supplying the 737 being used to test that product and iron out any kinks. I doubt the 737s are going anywhere anytime soon, most just entered Air Transat's fleet in the past year or two (used).

whywhyzee wrote:

This is a perfect aircraft for TS, think of the operating cost difference between this and the A310, even at a reduction in seat count. This also gives them the option to increase frequency on popular routes to compete with Rouge and Westjet by offering more flexible packages to vacationers. Beyond that, it gives them the option to further simplify their fleet to 2 distinct types, they could go with A321neo (with the option to order smaller types to replace the 738's if they so see fit) and A330/A330neo in the future. Currently the 737 fleet is a bit of a strange one, being crewed by pilots who are simultaneously flying Airbus products (I know one such pilot, his frustration at this practice is evident).

Ça doit, non?

According to the 'original rumor':

[url]http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=873[/url
Air Transat aurait choisi l’A321NEO à cause de la polyvalence qu’il apporte puisqu’il pourra être utilisé sur les routes transatlantiques l’été et pour les destinations soleil, l’hiver. La commande d’Air Transat comprendrait un mélange d’avions neufs et usagés répartis entre des A321NEO-LR et des A320 neufs et usagés. Pour les avions neufs, il pourrait s’agir d’appareils originalement commandés par Qatar Airways qui sont devenus disponibles après l’annulation de la commande par la compagnie aérienne du golf persique. Avec cette commande, le transporteur montréalais se retrouverait avec une flotte entièrement composée d’appareils Airbus limitant ainsi les coûts de formation alors que les B737 seraient retournés à la compagnie de location. Rejoints par courriel, les relations médias d’Air Transat ont refusé de commenter la nouvelle.

It is, after-all a rumor - but one that does provide a rather logical progression towards/upon a practical posibility for AirTransat (and one that will likely provide better results to AirTransat, than their current strategy).

If TL;DR'd - the rumor essentially states;
- that the A321s are going to be used on the Trans-Atlantic (in the Summer) and the Sun Destinations (in the Winter).
- AirTransat has decided upon a 'melange' of new and used aircraft; some A321-NEOLR and some new and used A320s. The new aircraft were due to QR, but were 'disponibles' after QR annulled their order.
- This would return allow the return of the 737s back to 'la compagnie de location' (essentially, to the lessor).

Of direct response to your quote in bold, I've higlighted the almost direct response, in the rumor.

In honor of French, I'll offer another line -

"Mon bon Monsieur,
Apprenez que tout flatteur
Vit aux dépens de celui qui l’écoute :
Cette leçon vaut bien un fromage, sans doute.»" - de Jean de La Fontaine.

I've got no cheddar on the line, so I can fancy in the rumor. As good as it sounds, it's only a rumor.

queb wrote:

Sorry, in french only: http://www.lesailesduquebec.com/?p=1403

"We were informed at our union management meeting on December 13 that the new A321 LR will be ordered with pre-installed crew comfort seats before delivery to Air Transat. "Crew comfort seats are intended for crew members, including flight attendants, on long-haul flights."

Crew comfort seats - could these be the extra-comfy jumpseats found in some widebody aft galleys where FAs can take a nap with the galley curtain closed? If so, let's hope Air Transat doesn't go for the Smart-Flex aft galley/two lavs combo and the poor FA resting has seven people waiting in lav queue next to him/her plus the noise and smell from the lavs.

Transat is prepping to take on another 2 A330-200's in the first quarter of 2017, they did last year as well with C-GJDA & C-GUFR. The short term plan is to begin phasing out the A310 in 2018 and they are expected to be completely gone by 2019. The additional A330's have been able to allow growth with new routes and will also be able to cover some of the A310 markets.

Would love this!
1. See an a321 in Air Transat livery
2. Them open up routes from let's say Hailfax or Ottawa to possibly Lisbon/Madrid or Paris skinny routes
But if they start to do this will they replace there 737s with A320 Neos or A321 Neos

I guess my username indicates what I think would be the ideal replacement for the A310!

So if true, this would be similar to when they had the 757s. Though I'm not sure they had Club Class in those.

It is very hard to find a 1-to-1 replacement for the A310 If they want to keep some 12 club seats on those birds then total occupancy should be around 180, it would be hard to reach 200 or even 190 in total occupancy. The next suitable replacement I could think of is B787-8, it should give them little more club class capacity with relatively same economy or 12 club seats with more economy that could bridge to their A332 fleet; and it would be a chance for them to start experimenting with the B787

A310neo wrote:

I guess my username indicates what I think would be the ideal replacement for the A310!

Agree, you've got a point there

It is confirmed. I spoke to a TS pilot about it (who is a friend), he said it's already gone through. Numbers will be a 1 for 1 replacement of the A310's plus one additional frame.

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

I´d say it´s quite a difference ...
As the A310 has 244 seats in 2-class config. and the A321LR has max. 236 seats in 1-class config.
So, the A321LR may have around 220-225 seats in a 2-class layout.

Too much ambitious target, when I see I would believe.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

Air Transat's current seat pitch is 36 inches in J and 32-33 inches in Y if the A321neoLRs will be used for TATL ops. I could see something like J24Y176 or J20Y180...with 36"/21.5" in business (2/2) and 32"-33"/17" in economy. (The 737s are Y189.)

TS increased the seat pitch on the A310 and A330 a couple of years ago to offset complaints about the cramped 9-abreast configuration and the resulting narrow seats. That wouldn't be an issue with the A321 which has wider seats. I highly doubt TS would operate an Airbus narrowbody with 32-33" pitch in Y. That would be better than most full-service network carriers and contrary to the TS business model. With the wider A321 seats there's no reason to offer more seat pitch than the TS 737-800s.

where will the a310 go when AT retires them

kennedyspotter wrote:

where will the a310 go when AT retires them

Several ex-Air Transat A310s (code TS) have already been scrapped, including two mentioned in this 2013 article which were scrapped at Mirabel airport (YMX) near Montreal. Sorry, the article is only in French but you can paste the text into Google Translate.
http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... irabel.php

MHG wrote:

deltalaw wrote:

How much smaller in seating capacity would the A321LR be compared to the A310s in their configuration?

I´d say it´s quite a difference ...
As the A310 has 244 seats in 2-class config. and the A321LR has max. 236 seats in 1-class config.
So, the A321LR may have around 220-225 seats in a 2-class layout.

A 220-seat A321LR should not be a problem for them if their A310 load factor is less than 90%. This will most likely improve their yields as the A321LR is full and operating costs are lower.

Confirmed by a spokesperson: :"Nous allons progressivement intégrer dans la flotte des Airbus A321 LR, qui vont remplacer progressivement les A310. Nos pilotes ont la double qualification Airbus/Boeing et passent la requalification à chaque changement de saison. Pour le remplacement des 737-800, nous pourrions éventuellement passer en tout Airbus, mais aucune décision n'est encore prise".

http://www.air-cosmos.com/air-transat-v ... ctif-89635

I can not wait to see if it's going to be confirmed. To replace the B737-800WL would be fine! But to replace the 9 A310s the ideal will be 10 B787-8 or B787-9?

Once the A321neo LR's become available Transat will be taking them, they are a direct replacement of the A310 at first but will gradually phase out the 737 fleet over time. The plan is to phase out the A310's before their next heavy checks. 2 A332's are coming online in April/May, I'm assuming ex Emirates like the 2 from last year. These additional frames will cover some flying for the A310's and allow for expansion as well. Nothing is confirmed yet, but this is the tentative plan so far, there is no set number of frames or dates of phasing out yet. Like I said they are trying to juggle the schedules to phase the A310's out at the right time. Word is there will be a seat drop vs the A310's (I'm hearing 12 club class and 204-210 economy being tossed around, no word on seat pitch) With the drop in seats, Transat is expected to add frequencies to most of the former A310 routes. Anything not reachable by the A321 (ex. YYZ-VCE) will see up-gauge to A330.

fbeaulie wrote:

Confirmed by a spokesperson: :"Nous allons progressivement intégrer dans la flotte des Airbus A321 LR, qui vont remplacer progressivement les A310. Nos pilotes ont la double qualification Airbus/Boeing et passent la requalification à chaque changement de saison. Pour le remplacement des 737-800, nous pourrions éventuellement passer en tout Airbus, mais aucune décision n'est encore prise".

http://www.air-cosmos.com/air-transat-v ... ctif-89635

So it's no longer a rumor. Interesting development. I wonder whether they'll indeed become an all Airbus fleet again or choose to stick the the 738.

Maybe they fly YYZ-HAM again with the A321. I still dont know why they pulled it, flights were booked pretty good.

AIRTRANSAT767 wrote:

I can not wait to see if it's going to be confirmed. To replace the B737-800WL would be fine! But to replace the 9 A310s the ideal will be 10 B787-8 or B787-9?

Looks like it is confirmed: the "spokesperson" who is being quoted in the article is Gilles Ringwald - VP Commercial.

B787-8 or 9?: Someone from Air Transat told me that they wanted slightly smaller planes to replace their A310s to have a bit more flexibility (e.g., opening new routes not offered by others (e.g., AC Rouge...)).

whywhyzee wrote:

It is confirmed. I spoke to a TS pilot about it (who is a friend), he said it's already gone through. Numbers will be a 1 for 1 replacement of the A310's plus one additional frame.

When will Transat start taking deliveries?

yycdel wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

It is confirmed. I spoke to a TS pilot about it (who is a friend), he said it's already gone through. Numbers will be a 1 for 1 replacement of the A310's plus one additional frame.

When will Transat start taking deliveries?

I had a look online and there isn't any confirmation but the 321NEO LR EIS is 2019 or late 2018

Must be one of the orders Airbus is sitting on for Paris..

A big problem that Air Transat have is with their 737-700/800. Aircraft are really different one from another, in the livery perspective. And I think it’s important to have a common livery across the fleet.

Boeing 737-700 : Yellow paint scheme (from ASL Airlines France)

Boeing 737-800 : Transavia France, SmartWings, and parts of old Canjet liveries.

For the client, it is better to have the same liveries, the client recognize the brand. I hope that the aircraft will be delivered with the Air Transat liveries, and not some plastics on top of a leasing brand. Also, I am wondering how many A321 they will have, because Air Transat is not in a good shape, in terms of economics.

FelixINX wrote:

A big problem that Air Transat have is with their 737-700/800. Aircraft are really different one from another, in the livery perspective. And I think it’s important to have a common livery across the fleet.

Boeing 737-700 : Yellow paint scheme (from ASL Airlines France)

Boeing 737-800 : Transavia France, SmartWings, and parts of old Canjet liveries.

For the client, it is better to have the same liveries, the client recognize the brand. I hope that the aircraft will be delivered with the Air Transat liveries, and not some plastics on top of a leasing brand. Also, I am wondering how many A321 they will have, because Air Transat is not in a good shape, in terms of economics.

These airplanes, ASL, Smartwings & Transavia, only fly for Air Transat from December to April for the busy winter season. After that they go back to Europe. It doesn't make sense to paint the planes in the full livery if they are only going to be with the airline for a few months. And while a handful of passengers might actually notice it is not the Air Transat livery, they still see the blue star on the tail and "Air Transat" titles on the fuselage. The average flyer doesn't give a damn that the livery on the airplane they are in doesn't match the company's livery... Every airline who leases airplanes on a short term basis does this, see the jumbled mess that is Sunwing over the winter, Sun Country & Miami Air have a few leases over the winter as well & a ton of airlines in Europe over the summer season.

As for the 2 Canjet birds, those are now fully part of the TS fleet and were given a fresh coat of paint on their last C-Check's in September/October 2016. And all of the non-Transat 737's will be going back to their original airlines by the end of the month.

The tentative plan, as stated already above, is a 1 to 1 replacement of the A310 (9) plus one additional frame. Meaning 10 A321's. These aircraft will retain the full livery as they will be a permanent part of the fleet. There are also 2 A330-200's coming online in the next 2 months, both are ex. Emirates airplanes, those too will have the full livery.

ryan78 wrote:

FelixINX wrote:

A big problem that Air Transat have is with their 737-700/800. Aircraft are really different one from another, in the livery perspective. And I think it’s important to have a common livery across the fleet.

Boeing 737-700 : Yellow paint scheme (from ASL Airlines France)

Boeing 737-800 : Transavia France, SmartWings, and parts of old Canjet liveries.

For the client, it is better to have the same liveries, the client recognize the brand. I hope that the aircraft will be delivered with the Air Transat liveries, and not some plastics on top of a leasing brand. Also, I am wondering how many A321 they will have, because Air Transat is not in a good shape, in terms of economics.

These airplanes, ASL, Smartwings & Transavia, only fly for Air Transat from December to April for the busy winter season. After that they go back to Europe. It doesn't make sense to paint the planes in the full livery if they are only going to be with the airline for a few months. And while a handful of passengers might actually notice it is not the Air Transat livery, they still see the blue star on the tail and "Air Transat" titles on the fuselage. The average flyer doesn't give a damn that the livery on the airplane they are in doesn't match the company's livery... Every airline who leases airplanes on a short term basis does this, see the jumbled mess that is Sunwing over the winter, Sun Country & Miami Air have a few leases over the winter as well & a ton of airlines in Europe over the summer season.

As for the 2 Canjet birds, those are now fully part of the TS fleet and were given a fresh coat of paint on their last C-Check's in September/October 2016. And all of the non-Transat 737's will be going back to their original airlines by the end of the month.

The tentative plan, as stated already above, is a 1 to 1 replacement of the A310 (9) plus one additional frame. Meaning 10 A321's. These aircraft will retain the full livery as they will be a permanent part of the fleet. There are also 2 A330-200's coming online in the next 2 months, both are ex. Emirates airplanes, those too will have the full livery.

10 A321LRs would definitely allow for the re-introduction of YOW/YHZ-LGW and hopefully others. It would be the right-sized aircraft for those markets and the 321s aren't going to be a direct 1-for-1 replacement as some of the routes the 313s plies will need to be upped to 332s due to range.

Sounds like the Airbus version of the MOM replacement market is already happening.I wonder what the sfc delta is like? 35% anyone? -more??

Another source : the ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association) says on the Air Transat page :

Management is also in talks to purchase between 9 and 12 A321neoLRs to replace aging A310s.

- See more at: http://www.alpa.org/en/about-alpa/our-pilot-groups/pilot-groups/air-transat