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NotDengXiaoping
Topic Author
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AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:28 pm

I was looking at the route maps for AA and I found that the 1973 copy shows service to Auckland, Melbourne, and Sydney, all through Honolulu and Fiji. I'm interested in knowing if this is a codeshare with BOAC or another airline (I know BOAC flew VC10s on the LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAD-SYD-MEL route 5 times a week) or if AA actually operated to Australia on its own metal. I haven't found any timetables from that year or any other maps showing that service, so if anybody knows here I'd be glad to know further details.

Also, here is a link to the route map in question-

http://www.departedflights.com/AA042973.html
 
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modernArt
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 pm



American 707 at Melbourne
 
910A
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:49 pm

It was their own service, flying 707's started in 1970. The flights were discontinued around 1975 when AA traded with Pan Am for some Caribbean destinations.
 
NotDengXiaoping
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:23 pm

Also if anyone has info on the schedules (how many times/week, etc.) please provide info!
 
USAirALB
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:24 pm

AA also served SYD and AKL IIRC in the early 90s with M11s or DC10s via HNL.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:37 pm

From my October 28, 1973 AA timetable:

Flight 151
STL-HNL (M/F/Sa/Su)

Flight 152
HNL-STL (F/Sa/Su)

Flight 201
ORD-HNL-SYD (Th/Sa)
ORD-HNL-PPG-AKL (M/W)
ORD-HNL-NAN-SYD (Tu)
ORD-HNL-NAN-MEL (Su)
ORD-HNL-NAN-AKL (F)

Flight 202
AKL-NAN-HNL-ORD (F)
AKL-PPG-HNL-ORD (Su)
AKL-NAN-PPG-HNL-ORD (W)
SYD-NAN-HNL-ORD (M/Th/Sa)
MEL-NAN-HNL-ORD (Tu)

All flights were operated with the 707. Quite a complicated service pattern, but the gist is that Sydney was served 3x weekly, Melbourne 1x, and Auckland 3x. The St. Louis-Honolulu flights did not continue on to the South Pacific.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:26 pm

I never realized that AA flew nonstop to HNL from STL back in the '70's. I know this is off topic, but why were the awarded STL? I don't recall them having a major presence there at that time.
In these days of nonstops and 77W's, it's amazing to think of crossing the Pacific on a multi-stop 707!
 
superjeff
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:37 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I never realized that AA flew nonstop to HNL from STL back in the '70's. I know this is off topic, but why were the awarded STL? I don't recall them having a major presence there at that time.
In these days of nonstops and 77W's, it's amazing to think of crossing the Pacific on a multi-stop 707!



In the 1970's, AA was Number 2 in STL after TWA. The Australia routes didn't work well for AA because they were required to originate those flights east of the Mississippi (STL is right on that river, for you non USA people). Because of the time changes, they were somewhat limited in what times worked, so they never were successful. It made a lot of sense to swap the routes with Pan Am which was strong in the South Pacific for the Caribbean, where AA was strong due to its acquisition of Trans Caribbean a few years earlier.
 
DFW789ER
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:47 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I never realized that AA flew nonstop to HNL from STL back in the '70's. I know this is off topic, but why were the awarded STL? I don't recall them having a major presence there at that time.
In these days of nonstops and 77W's, it's amazing to think of crossing the Pacific on a multi-stop 707!


In one of my 1970 AA timetables (not going to drag them all out), AA also flew to ORD and JFK in 1970. I believe it was the ORD flight that continued on to Pago Pago and Sydney. I think all flights stopped in PPG, even the Auckland and Melbourne (perhaps via SYD). Just saw the post above of me, so this is repetitive.
 
zrs70
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:00 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I never realized that AA flew nonstop to HNL from STL back in the '70's. I know this is off topic, but why were the awarded STL? I don't recall them having a major presence there at that time.
In these days of nonstops and 77W's, it's amazing to think of crossing the Pacific on a multi-stop 707!


For many years (prior to the TWA merger) AA maintained a large Admiral's Club in STL. This reflected the loyal following they had there. Even after others airlines closed their room (and still before the merger), AA's remained open.
 
NotDengXiaoping
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:26 pm

USAirALB wrote:
AA also served SYD and AKL IIRC in the early 90s with M11s or DC10s via HNL.


Does anyone have any more info on this? I can't seem to find a AA timetable from the Early 1990's online...
 
timz
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Re: AA to Australia in the 90s

Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:58 pm

He must be thinking of the Qantas flights that began appearing in AA's timetable in 1994.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: AA to Australia in the 90s

Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:04 am

timz wrote:
He must be thinking of the Qantas flights that began appearing in AA's timetable in 1994.
g

I don't have a timetable but AA served SYD and AKL from 1990/92 for AKL with D10's.

DFW-HNL-SYD 4 weekly
DFW-HNL-AKL 3 weekly

Not sure when they first codeshared with QF.
 
topbanana
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:23 am

USAirALB wrote:
AA also served SYD and AKL IIRC in the early 90s with M11s or DC10s via HNL.


timz wrote:
He must be thinking of the Qantas flights that began appearing in AA's timetable in 1994.


NotDengXiaoping wrote:
Does anyone have any more info on this? I can't seem to find a AA timetable from the Early 1990's online...


The cover of American's system timetable dated January 31, 1990 reads: "Australia. New Service Begins February 2. New Zealand. New Service Begins February 4."

The schedule was:

Flight 90
SYD-HNL 8:00am-8:45am DC-10 ExTueThuSat
HNL-DFW 10:45pm-10:00am+1 DC-10 Ex MonWedFri

Flight 91
DFW-HNL 4:30pm-8:41pm DC-10 ExTueThuSun
HNL-SYD 10:25pm-5:25am+2 DC-10 ExTueThuSun

Flight 86
AKL-HNL 1:00pm-10:35pm DC-10 TueThuSatOnly
HNL-DFW 12:25am-11:55am DC-10 TueThuSatOnly

Flight 87
DFW-HNL 4:30pm-8:41pm DC-10 TueThuSunOnly
HNL-AKL 10:25pm-6:25am+2 DC-10 TueThuSunOnly

The final American Airlines service to Sydney and Auckland appears in the January 31, 1992 system timetable.

By the April 5, 1992 system timetable, the Sydney and Auckland service had been discontinued.
 
DFW789ER
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:00 am

This is AA's fourth time flying to Australia. This time should take given the QF connection.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:14 am

That and AA can fly it non-stop. Problem before was the stop at HNL was hard to market, competing with the non-stops.
 
westgate
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:47 am

I'm sure they used MD-11's as well in the early 90's, and I think they might have even used them non-stop from LAX to SYD at some point, but I might be getting that mixed up with the NW 747-400's that flew that route at the same time as their flights via KIX.
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:19 am

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I never realized that AA flew nonstop to HNL from STL back in the '70's. I know this is off topic, but why were the awarded STL? I don't recall them having a major presence there at that time.
In these days of nonstops and 77W's, it's amazing to think of crossing the Pacific on a multi-stop 707!


I'm guessing it started in 1968ish and prolly got canned with the recession and oil embargo. I remember adverts in the Post-Dispatch plugging the route. 747s never made it on the route, and I doubt DC-10s did, either.
 
kimshep
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:42 am

AA's initial service to the South Pacific (SYD, MEL, AKL & NAN) began in 1970 and ran until 1975. The service was operated by a B707-323C LuxuryLiner. Boeing introduced the first B707 Retro-fit package in late 1970, which allowed the retrofitting of a sculptured ceiling, modernized overhead luggage bins (a la B747) and refreshed interior, a small First Class lounge/bar as well as enhanced performance options. AA adopted this package quickly on the 707 which coincided with the 'Bill Blass' new uniform and system-wide fleet upgrades including the domestic B727s.

During the first 2 years the service operated daily from JFK-ORD to HNL and NAN. Services from NAN to SYD, MEL, AKL were dependant on day-of-week, as shown in JSNWW81's post above. In late 1972 PPG was added to the network and mid 1973, STL-HNL was added. STL was a large focus city for AA at the time (and subsequently became a hub after the 2002 TWA takeover). Naturally, the South Pacific timetables were updated regularly to reflect these changes, when they occurred.

The AA201/202 service was entirely on AA metal. It was never a 'codeshare' service and AA competed heavily with both UA, BA and QF on the South Pacific route. Interlining was possible, of course. QF provided engineering maintenance support and catering (SYD/MEL) under contract only.

I disagree with SuperJeff's comment of: " The Australia routes didn't work well for AA because they were required to originate those flights east of the Mississippi (STL is right on that river, for you non USA people). Because of the time changes, they were somewhat limited in what times worked, so they never were successful."
A little more complex than that. American was at a disadvantage on South Pacific services in that they were restricted to operating from East Coast and Midwest hubs to Australia / New Zealand due to not having West Coast access rights to the South Pacific, including HNL during 1970. It is pertinent to remember that these operations were prior to US deregulation which occurred in the late 1970's (1978 IINM) and when route expansion was controlled by the CAB / DOT. Time changes had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Indeed, American's operations in the South Pacific were quite successful with high load factors and excellent revenue figures. The major problem AA faced was Bermuda II and restricted bilateral rights into Australia / New Zealand which limited AA to 4 services per week into Australia. AA also faced the issue of competing with both QF and UA operating what were 'new' and 'novel' just introduced B747's across the Pacific. Had AA been able to operate a daily schedule to Australia, it would have done so. The advantage American had was it's 9am departure from SYD & MEL, which put it into NAN at 3pm and HNL at 11:30pm (-1 day) for an early afternoon arrival into ORD and a late afternoon arrival into JFK. Both QF and UA operated ex SYD in the afternoon - a less advantageous schedule. Because of this, AA picked up a consistent number of dedicated First Class corporate and wealthy clients who were attracted by the superior schedules. Similarly, a morning departure ex US mainland put it's arrival time into SYD/MEL at a comfortable mid-evening (against an early morning QF and UA), allowing for all-daylight flying.

Another contributing factor to AA's demise on the route during the 1970's was the minor scandal of AA being caught out contributing to Nixon's election campaign. It was viewed with some trepidation due to the previously mentioned Bermuda II bilateral agreements and there was a perception that this could have been seen as an attempt to gain influence. AA decided not to allow this to taint their reputation.

I do agree with SuperJeff in that the 'route swap' with UA's inherited PA routes was inspired. After the exchange of route authorities, AA had an almost monopolistic lock on all mainland routes to the Caribbean. If there was a destination that AA didn't touch in the Caribbean, it wasn't worth serving - as many of AA's competitors found out.

As DFW789ER correctly points out, the current (2016) AA return to Australia is their fourth time into Australia. AA also served Australia briefly in the early 1980's for a period of approximately 15-18 months due to the failure following Northwest's withdrawal over the Australia/Japan/USA route fiasco. AA's withdrawal during this time period (1983-4) was prior to Continental serving Australia.

As an ex-employee of AA during the 1970-1975 period and one of 26 Australian employees at that time, I have a special interest in this topic. ;)

When one thinks about the 'golden age' of air travel, AA on the Southpacific embodied it completely. First was a true luxury service, with a dedicated 'First Lady' in charge of all cabin crew, superb catering - even in Y and complimentary packs of 5 for the smokers. Downside? No J Class (it wasn't invented), no 'lie-flat' (today deemed as essential on ultra-longhaul) and shared overhead video screens (before the advent of seat-back IFE). Difference being that the service was always superb .. and engaged as well as entertaining.
 
kimshep
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Re: AA to Australia in the 90s

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:38 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
I don't have a timetable but AA served SYD and AKL from 1990/92 for AKL with D10's.

DFW-HNL-SYD 4 weekly
DFW-HNL-AKL 3 weekly

Not sure when they first codeshared with QF.


I think you'll find that AA/QF code-sharing began in earnest around the time that the oneworld alliance was formed which would have been around 2001/2.. As founding partners, QF had a finite need to access the AA/BA network (both domestic and international ie; JFK-LHR etc) and AA needed access to the QF network to provide trans-pacific and domestic Australian service for their customers. Bear in mind that the early years of oneworld were fairly turbulent: CPA (Canadian Pacific Air) was also a member of oneworld (before the AC buyout) and an AA competitor and IIRC, BA made an ultimately unsuccessful 'takeover' tilt at US Air who were unhappy with their Star Alliance membership. It could be said that the formation of the 3 major alliances were, in effect, the beginning of the 'consolidation' factor that we have seen in the USA over the past 3-4 years.
 
westgate
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:08 pm

kimshep wrote:
both UA, BA and QF on the South Pacific route.


Do you mean PA, not UA ? I wasn't aware that UA flew to Australia in the 1970's. The first time they did was in the 80's after they bought the routes from PA.

kimshep wrote:
the current (2016) AA return to Australia is their fourth time into Australia. AA also served Australia briefly in the early 1980's for a period of approximately 15-18 months due to the failure following Northwest's withdrawal over the Australia/Japan/USA route fiasco. AA's withdrawal during this time period (1983-4) was prior to Continental serving Australia.


I'm confused as to when this 4th time occurred. Obviously we have the 70's, the 90's and now. Was unaware of an AA service in the 80's but happy to be proven wrong.

Also, Continental started flying to Australia in the late 70's, so prior to 1983 and the Northwest Australia/Japan/USA route fiasco actually happened in the early 90's after AA had already pulled out of Australia ( for the 3rd time ???).
 
commavia
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:14 pm

westgate wrote:
I'm sure they used MD-11's as well in the early 90's, and I think they might have even used them non-stop from LAX to SYD at some point, but I might be getting that mixed up with the NW 747-400's that flew that route at the same time as their flights via KIX.


AA never flew the MD11 to Australia - from Hawaii or LAX, in the early 1990s or at any other time.

As said, AA service to Australia needed the combination of the right aircraft (77W), the right gateway (LAX), and the right partner (QANTAS) to work - AA now has all three.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:29 pm

kimshep wrote:
Indeed, American's operations in the South Pacific were quite successful with high load factors and excellent revenue figures. The major problem AA faced was Bermuda II and restricted bilateral rights into Australia / New Zealand which limited AA to 4 services per week into Australia. AA also faced the issue of competing with both QF and UA operating what were 'new' and 'novel' just introduced B747's across the Pacific. Had AA been able to operate a daily schedule to Australia, it would have done so. The advantage American had was it's 9am departure from SYD & MEL, which put it into NAN at 3pm and HNL at 11:30pm (-1 day) for an early afternoon arrival into ORD and a late afternoon arrival into JFK. Both QF and UA operated ex SYD in the afternoon - a less advantageous schedule. Because of this, AA picked up a consistent number of dedicated First Class corporate and wealthy clients who were attracted by the superior schedules. Similarly, a morning departure ex US mainland put it's arrival time into SYD/MEL at a comfortable mid-evening (against an early morning QF and UA), allowing for all-daylight flying.

As an ex-employee of AA during the 1970-1975 period and one of 26 Australian employees at that time, I have a special interest in this topic. ;)


What an absolutely superb post! It is excellent to read the historical reality by someone actually employed by AA at the time rather than pure speculation. Thanks so much for taking the time to share all of that - I devoured every word with relish! Extremely educational. I'd love to hear any more anecdotes if you have them, and I'm sure others would too.

Thank you again! Really interesting stuff there!

kimshep wrote:
I think you'll find that AA/QF code-sharing began in earnest around the time that the oneworld alliance was formed which would have been around 2001/2.


The oneworld alliance commenced on 1 February 1999. You really should research before throwing in vague dates as fact... just a suggestion!
 
DFW789ER
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:58 pm

[quote="kimshep"]
During the first 2 years the service operated daily from JFK-ORD to HNL and NAN. Services from NAN to SYD, MEL, AKL were dependant on day-of-week, as shown in JSNWW81's post above. In late 1972 PPG was added to the network and mid 1973, STL-HNL was added. STL was a large focus city for AA at the time (and subsequently became a hub after the 2002 TWA takeover). Naturally, the South Pacific timetables were updated regularly to reflect these changes, when they occurred.

The AA timetable dated October 25, 1970 indicates they flew PPG in addition to NAN, both via HNL.. The timetable even has a supplemental insert with the old railroad style timetable. HNL-PPG-AKL was flown once a week..AKL had a second weekly flight via NAN. SYD was served via NAN twice a week, and nonstop from HNL once weekly, for a total of five weekly flights to the South Pacific.. At that time MEL was not served.
 
Qantas59
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:23 pm

AA service to Australia:

SYD 1 Aug 70 / 30 Mar 74 707-323B

MEL Dec 71 / Jan 74 707-323B

HNL-SYD 2 Feb 90 / 29 Feb 92 DC-10-30

LAX-SYD 17 Dec 15 777-323ER

no AA service to Australia at any point in the 1980s

Cheers
 
rbavfan
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:45 pm

NotDengXiaoping wrote:
I was looking at the route maps for AA and I found that the 1973 copy shows service to Auckland, Melbourne, and Sydney, all through Honolulu and Fiji. I'm interested in knowing if this is a codeshare with BOAC or another airline (I know BOAC flew VC10s on the LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAD-SYD-MEL route 5 times a week) or if AA actually operated to Australia on its own metal. I haven't found any timetables from that year or any other maps showing that service, so if anybody knows here I'd be glad to know further details.

Also, here is a link to the route map in question-

http://www.departedflights.com/AA042973.html



Codeshare dod not come about till well after deregulation. It did not exist in 1970's.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:01 pm

westgate wrote:
kimshep wrote:
both UA, BA and QF on the South Pacific route.


Do you mean PA, not UA ? I wasn't aware that UA flew to Australia in the 1970's. The first time they did was in the 80's after they bought the routes from PA.

kimshep wrote:
the current (2016) AA return to Australia is their fourth time into Australia. AA also served Australia briefly in the early 1980's for a period of approximately 15-18 months due to the failure following Northwest's withdrawal over the Australia/Japan/USA route fiasco. AA's withdrawal during this time period (1983-4) was prior to Continental serving Australia.


I'm confused as to when this 4th time occurred. Obviously we have the 70's, the 90's and now. Was unaware of an AA service in the 80's but happy to be proven wrong.

Also, Continental started flying to Australia in the late 70's, so prior to 1983 and the Northwest Australia/Japan/USA route fiasco actually happened in the early 90's after AA had already pulled out of Australia ( for the 3rd time ???).


You are correct about UA. Their only international routes prior to deregulation were YVR and YYZ. IIRC, CUN was their next international station after degregulation. They didn't start going overseas until buying the PA routes.

TW also flew over the Pacific in the 1970s but not to Australia or New Zealand.
 
westgate
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:42 pm

Qantas59 wrote:
AA service to Australia:

SYD 1 Aug 70 / 30 Mar 74 707-323B

MEL Dec 71 / Jan 74 707-323B

HNL-SYD 2 Feb 90 / 29 Feb 92 DC-10-30

LAX-SYD 17 Dec 15 777-323ER

no AA service to Australia at any point in the 1980s

Cheers


So I suppose I was correct in saying that this is in fact AA's third attempt at Oz and NOT their 4th !!!

Why do so many people think it's their 4th ???
 
westgate
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:44 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:

You are correct about UA. Their only international routes prior to deregulation were YVR and YYZ. IIRC, CUN was their next international station after degregulation. They didn't start going overseas until buying the PA routes.



That's what I thought, they were strictly a domestic airline (with the exception of Canada of course) until the 80's.
 
 
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klm617
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:12 pm

DFW789ER wrote:
kimshep wrote:
During the first 2 years the service operated daily from JFK-ORD to HNL and NAN. Services from NAN to SYD, MEL, AKL were dependant on day-of-week, as shown in JSNWW81's post above. In late 1972 PPG was added to the network and mid 1973, STL-HNL was added. STL was a large focus city for AA at the time (and subsequently became a hub after the 2002 TWA takeover). Naturally, the South Pacific timetables were updated regularly to reflect these changes, when they occurred.

The AA timetable dated October 25, 1970 indicates they flew PPG in addition to NAN, both via HNL.. The timetable even has a supplemental insert with the old railroad style timetable. HNL-PPG-AKL was flown once a week..AKL had a second weekly flight via NAN. SYD was served via NAN twice a week, and nonstop from HNL once weekly, for a total of five weekly flights to the South Pacific.. At that time MEL was not served.


I have a American timetable that has the STL-HNL flight in it on Saturday with a stop in between STL and HNL but it doesn't list where the aircraft stops would anyone know where the flight stopped I'm guessing LAX but I am not sure.
 
DFW789ER
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
DFW789ER wrote:
kimshep wrote:
During the first 2 years the service operated daily from JFK-ORD to HNL and NAN. Services from NAN to SYD, MEL, AKL were dependant on day-of-week, as shown in JSNWW81's post above. In late 1972 PPG was added to the network and mid 1973, STL-HNL was added. STL was a large focus city for AA at the time (and subsequently became a hub after the 2002 TWA takeover). Naturally, the South Pacific timetables were updated regularly to reflect these changes, when they occurred.

The AA timetable dated October 25, 1970 indicates they flew PPG in addition to NAN, both via HNL.. The timetable even has a supplemental insert with the old railroad style timetable. HNL-PPG-AKL was flown once a week..AKL had a second weekly flight via NAN. SYD was served via NAN twice a week, and nonstop from HNL once weekly, for a total of five weekly flights to the South Pacific.. At that time MEL was not served.


I have a American timetable that has the STL-HNL flight in it on Saturday with a stop in between STL and HNL but it doesn't list where the aircraft stops would anyone know where the flight stopped I'm guessing LAX but I am not sure.


I have that one also. Stopping in LAX would seem to be the most logical. My guess is they didn't have rights to carry pax on the LAX-HNL leg (it that is in fact where it stopped).
 
timz
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:17 am

kimshep wrote:
AA also served Australia briefly in the early 1980's for a period of approximately 15-18 months ... AA's withdrawal during this time period (1983-4)

Not in the Apr-Sep-Dec 1981 timetables, the Apr-June-Sep-Nov 1982, Jan-Oct 1983, July 1984, Oct 1985. Was it in one of those gaps?
 
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klm617
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:41 am

DFW789ER wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DFW789ER wrote:


I have a American timetable that has the STL-HNL flight in it on Saturday with a stop in between STL and HNL but it doesn't list where the aircraft stops would anyone know where the flight stopped I'm guessing LAX but I am not sure.


I have that one also. Stopping in LAX would seem to be the most logical. My guess is they didn't have rights to carry pax on the LAX-HNL leg (it that is in fact where it stopped).


That was my thought at first too but what confused me is why the segment between STL and LAX is listed in the timetable. I searched that timetable from cover to cover looking for other flights that might of connected with that flight but nothing.
 
Gemuser
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:43 am

rbavfan wrote:
Codeshare did not come about till well after deregulation. It did not exist in 1970's.

Code shares have existed since the late 1930s, although the term was different in different parts of the world.

gemuser
 
bunumuring
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:44 am

Hey guys,
Just confirming that AA never flew MD-11s in commercial service to Australia. I do vaguely recall a charter flight at some point that got us plane spotters hot under the collar but I mustn't have seen it as my only AA MD-11 photos are from overseas airports.
I recall the transition from Pan Am to United in my early years of planespotting at Sydney airport and the hybrid scheme on the 747SP. It was also a period of transition with Northwest and Continental flying in later but I'm not sure if NW, CO, AA and UA/PA all flew into Sydney at the same time. Don't forget as well that Hawaiian started and stopped and then started again their Sydney flights.... And at one stage Continental Micronesia flew in for a short period of scheduled service. Delta was a relatively recent arrival on the scene.
AA looks like they're here in Sydney for the long haul now. I hope one day for variety's sake as a photographer that we get to see Dreamliners here supplementing the 777s.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
 
Gemuser
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Re: AA to Australia in the 90s

Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:00 am

kimshep wrote:
I think you'll find that AA/QF code-sharing began in earnest around the time that the oneworld alliance was formed which would have been around 2001/2...


QF/AA code shares began as soon as or almost as soon as AA left Australia & NZ the last time in the early 1990s. Depending on what you mean by "in earnest" you are pushing the boundaries of accuracy here. Certainly the said code shares did develop over time, they were certainly well developed by the late 1990, pretty well covering most major Australian & NZ ports. There were further developments after the formation of OneWorld. Geoff Dixon [predecessor of Alan Joyce as CEO] claimed in a magazine article that QF sparked the relationship between AA & BA which lead to the formation of OneWorld & the various JVs that followed. That seems reasonable as QF & BA[IA] have been in a cooperative arrangement since 1934 and QF/AA for almost a decade by the time OneWorld was formed.

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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:38 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
Just confirming that AA never flew MD-11s in commercial service to Australia. I do vaguely recall a charter flight at some point that got us plane spotters hot under the collar but I mustn't have seen it as my only AA MD-11 photos are from overseas airports.
I recall the transition from Pan Am to United in my early years of planespotting at Sydney airport and the hybrid scheme on the 747SP. It was also a period of transition with Northwest and Continental flying in later but I'm not sure if NW, CO, AA and UA/PA all flew into Sydney at the same time. Don't forget as well that Hawaiian started and stopped and then started again their Sydney flights.... And at one stage Continental Micronesia flew in for a short period of scheduled service. Delta was a relatively recent arrival on the scene.
AA looks like they're here in Sydney for the long haul now. I hope one day for variety's sake as a photographer that we get to see Dreamliners here supplementing the 777s.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Micronesia came and went twice (aircraft went tech in SYD on the 2nd inaugural). There was a lot of US-AU capacity but the main challenge in the early 90's was the A$ tanked. As the majority of pax were ex AU, the flights were full, but once the revenue was converted to USD most of these routes were in the red- I suspect that was the reason AA pulled out, not because for the 4x/week limitation. Remember this was the recession "we had to have".
 
westgate
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:57 am

bunumuring wrote:
It was also a period of transition with Northwest and Continental flying in later but I'm not sure if NW, CO, AA and UA/PA all flew into Sydney at the same time. Don't forget as well that Hawaiian started and stopped and then started again their Sydney flights.... And at one stage Continental Micronesia flew in for a short period of scheduled service. Delta was a relatively recent arrival on the scene.
AA looks like they're here in Sydney for the long haul now.


Continental flew into SYD from 1979 until they pulled out in about 1994, while UA has been flying there continuously since they took over from PA in the mid 80's. SYD is their only Australasian destination to have dedicated non-stop service all this time, first with the 747-SP's, then the 747-400's, then the 777-200's and now the 787-9's. AKL has been on and off a few times, and even though MEL has always sustained some kind of service, more often than not it was only as a tag-on from primarily SYD but sometimes from AKL as well.

American returned for their second attempt in the early 90's and pulled out soon after, and were followed shortly by NW who flew to both KIX and LAX simultaneously but those services didn't last long either. So only ever 3 major US airlines at any one time. I do remember Hawaiians first attempt, was it with L-1011's in the late 80's ? And Continental Micronesia did indeed fly from GUM very infrequently with DC-10's ( maybe only 1x weekly), but then they reduced their Australian presence to just a 737 flight to CNS for a while before pulling out entirely.

bunumuring wrote:
AA looks like they're here in SYD for the long haul now.


Well only if it makes sense to operate their metal on the route as opposed to Qantas. As it's a JV, it doesn't matter who flies it, so that flight could easily switch back to QF in the future, unless AA are operating it as some kind of a prestige route and insist on keeping it for that purpose. I think it was the indefinite postponement of the QF order for the 8 additional A380's that lead to AA entering the market this time around, QF was just short on capable long-haul wide bodies as a result of the retirement of their non-ER 747-400 fleet.
 
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:56 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
Just confirming that AA never flew MD-11s in commercial service to Australia. I do vaguely recall a charter flight at some point that got us plane spotters hot under the collar but I mustn't have seen it as my only AA MD-11 photos are from overseas airports.
I recall the transition from Pan Am to United in my early years of planespotting at Sydney airport and the hybrid scheme on the 747SP. It was also a period of transition with Northwest and Continental flying in later but I'm not sure if NW, CO, AA and UA/PA all flew into Sydney at the same time. Don't forget as well that Hawaiian started and stopped and then started again their Sydney flights.... And at one stage Continental Micronesia flew in for a short period of scheduled service. Delta was a relatively recent arrival on the scene.
AA looks like they're here in Sydney for the long haul now. I hope one day for variety's sake as a photographer that we get to see Dreamliners here supplementing the 777s.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

HA first time: SYD-PPG-HNL once a week with a DC8, although an L1011 did sub at least once.
CO GUM: the flights were to BNE and SYD first time, second time maybe just SYD? Then the CNS flights started with 757/737.
NW flew SYD-LAX 3x/week 744, SYD-HNL-LAX 3x/week D10, SYD-HNL-LAX 1x/week 742. Let's not talk about Osaka again...
UA: honourable mention to the oft forgotten SYD-AKL-HNL-SFO flight with a D10. And those SYD-LAX SP's made an awful lot of HNL tech stops- even eastbound.
AA 3rd time lucky: who knows. Rumours posted here have indicated the flight isn't the golden goose head office was expecting.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:35 am

klm617 wrote:
DFW789ER wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I have a American timetable that has the STL-HNL flight in it on Saturday with a stop in between STL and HNL but it doesn't list where the aircraft stops would anyone know where the flight stopped I'm guessing LAX but I am not sure.


I have that one also. Stopping in LAX would seem to be the most logical. My guess is they didn't have rights to carry pax on the LAX-HNL leg (it that is in fact where it stopped).


That was my thought at first too but what confused me is why the segment between STL and LAX is listed in the timetable. I searched that timetable from cover to cover looking for other flights that might of connected with that flight but nothing.


My Sep 7, 1977 AA timetable shows the stop in SFO. AA could carry passengers STL-HNL, STL-SFO, but not SFO-HNL.
 
bunumuring
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:44 pm

Hey guys,
Re Hawaiian's first try with Sydney flights: definitely DC-8s and I agree about the TriStar appearing at Sydney at least once. I have photos of it.
Re America West: remember that America West at one stage planned on flying into Sydney as well, using the 747-200s purchased to fly to Japan and Hawaii but a hinted-at upgrade to 747-300s or -400s (I can't remember). That was during the time that Ansett owned a stake in America West. I can't remember what the US origin of the Sydney flights was to be...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
 
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Re: AA to Australia in the 90s

Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:56 pm

Gemuser wrote:
QF/AA code shares began as soon as or almost as soon as AA left Australia & NZ the last time in the early 1990s. Depending on what you mean by "in earnest" you are pushing the boundaries of accuracy here. Certainly the said code shares did develop over time, they were certainly well developed by the late 1990, pretty well covering most major Australian & NZ ports.


Correct. The AA-QANTAS codeshare began in November 1994, and thus predates oneworld (announced September 1998) by about four years. In fact, AA-QANTAS was a very early example of the modern conception of what we now call codesharing.
 
Viscount724
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:16 am

BoeingGuy wrote:

You are correct about UA. Their only international routes prior to deregulation were YVR and YYZ. IIRC, CUN was their next international station after degregulation. They didn't start going overseas until buying the PA routes.

TW also flew over the Pacific in the 1970s but not to Australia or New Zealand.


Not quite right about UA. UA was awarded SEA/PDX-NRT and SEA-HKG rights around 1983, three years before they purchased Pan Am's Pacific routes. Their own 747-100s could handle the NRT routes but they had to lease 3 DC-10-30ERs (with additional fuel tanks) from CP for the SEA-HKG nonstops. They provided 3 of their DC-10-10s to CP from 1983 to about 1987 as part of that deal.

TWA's transpacific multi-stop 707 service (which made them an around-the-world carrier) started in August 1969. I think it only lasted about 3 years until 1972 or thereabouts. TW had a similar problem in those markets as AA had on their early 707 service to the South Pacific. Without rights to Japan (except Okinawa which was then still under U.S. administration) the TW routes were uneconomic, just like AA's routes to HNL and beyond were uneconomic without any AA service from the West Coast to HNL.
 
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Re: AA Service to Australia in the 70's

Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:14 am

Viscount724 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

You are correct about UA. Their only international routes prior to deregulation were YVR and YYZ. IIRC, CUN was their next international station after degregulation. They didn't start going overseas until buying the PA routes.

TW also flew over the Pacific in the 1970s but not to Australia or New Zealand.


Not quite right about UA. UA was awarded SEA/PDX-NRT and SEA-HKG rights around 1983, three years before they purchased Pan Am's Pacific routes. Their own 747-100s could handle the NRT routes but they had to lease 3 DC-10-30ERs (with additional fuel tanks) from CP for the SEA-HKG nonstops. They provided 3 of their DC-10-10s to CP from 1983 to about 1987 as part of that deal.

TWA's transpacific multi-stop 707 service (which made them an around-the-world carrier) started in August 1969. I think it only lasted about 3 years until 1972 or thereabouts. TW had a similar problem in those markets as AA had on their early 707 service to the South Pacific. Without rights to Japan (except Okinawa which was then still under U.S. administration) the TW routes were uneconomic, just like AA's routes to HNL and beyond were uneconomic without any AA service from the West Coast to HNL.


TWA flew trans pacific until 1974 / 75 until TWA and Pan Am had a major route exchange. The TWA / PA route exchange called for TWA to drop all flights east of CAI / TLV and west of the US mainland, as well as DTW / SFO / IAD - LHR and US-Germany flights. In exchange, PA dropped flights from ORD and LAX to LHR, and ended service to France, Ireland, the Iberian Peninsula (except SJU-LIS-MAD-FCO) and Morocco. After Bermuda II was signed, Pan Am suspended BOS-LHR and re instated LAX-LHR.

After deregulation, TWA and Pan Am returned to many of the European countries they had dropped flights to, and TWA eventually re instated flights to India (via the Atlantic) and Hawaii (from the US Mainland). However, TWA never flew trans pacific flights west of Hawaii on a scheduled basis again.

Air Transport World articles from 1975 / 76 say AA lost $33 million on their transpacific flights in the early 1970s, and TWA lost more than $50 million. These losses came at a time when both airlines were also battered because they had bought too many 747s, DC-10s, and L-1011s, and when AA's Americana Hotels division was also losing millions of dollars a year.

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