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incitatus
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Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:39 am

Like everybody says, it belongs in there to remind the President that Britain and the UK have a special relationship.

It also belongs there to remind the President that people with non-standard sexual preferences can be amazing leaders and heroes.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:17 am

To some of us it belongs in the White house outhouse. It is the bust of a man who did everything in his power to make young American men pay with their blood so that Winston could claim to have restored great Britain's empire and Great Britain's glory. No such restoration occurred, but a lot of Americans died in Europe needlessly in deference to Winston's plans.
 
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KruegerFlaps
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:02 am

salttee wrote:
but a lot of Americans died in Europe needlessly in deference to Winston's plans.


I doubt that they died in deference to Winston's plans. More likely by the time that the US decided to enter the war, it had already formulated its own future goals. As early as 1940, Roosevelt had proclaimed, "Some, indeed, still hold to the now somewhat obvious delusion that we … can safely permit the United States to become a lone island … in a world dominated by the philosophy of force."*

While there continued to be considerable support for non-intervention, the sinking of the USS Reuben James strengthened the belief that the greatest danger facing the US was the victory of Germany and Italy. Any lingering doubts were simply swept aside a few weeks later, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

* The Annals of America, vol. 16, 8
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:22 am

Idolatry towards foreign leaders.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:53 am

KruegerFlaps wrote:
I doubt that they died in deference to Winston's plans. More likely by the time that the US decided to enter the war, it had already formulated its own future goals. As early as 1940, Roosevelt had proclaimed, "Some, indeed, still hold to the now somewhat obvious delusion that we … can safely permit the United States to become a lone island … in a world dominated by the philosophy of force."*
While there continued to be considerable support for non-intervention, the sinking of the USS Reuben James strengthened the belief that the greatest danger facing the US was the victory of Germany and Italy. Any lingering doubts were simply swept aside a few weeks later, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
That's not what I'm talking about. Churchill was opposed to invading France period. He and George Marshall had opposing plans for conducting the war. Marshall wanted to end the war via an assault through France. Churchill wanted to conduct the war in the Mediterranean because he wanted Britain to become the colonial power in the Balkans and Greece. There was no strategic justification for the attempted march up through the mountainous territory known as Italy which could only have come to an end at the foot of the Alps if it had succeeded - other than to allow Britain to march into the Balkans and Greece. Italy was ideal defensive territory and led nowhere, but Churchill insisted that the war be fought there. He killed the invasion plan for southern France in 43 and he tried his best to put off the invasion in 44.

Then there was the Market Garden fiasco which also would have led to a dead end as was shown in March of 45 when the British Army stalled in a sea of mud from the release of the reservoirs in the mountains above their invasion path. Included in Market Garden was the intentional failure to open the port of Antwerp for traffic which was done to prevent the Americans from having enough supplies to continue the offensive in the south which might have ended the war in 44. Churchill wouldn't permit the war to be won by an American offensive; the British had to win the war. Even the British eventually became sick of his shenanigans, they kicked him out of office a week before the war was over.

Everything was swept under the rug after the war.
 
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:05 am

incitatus wrote:
It also belongs there to remind the President that people with non-standard sexual preferences can be amazing leaders and heroes.

:o WOT?

Churchill was gay?

Mo's think EVERYONE is gay!
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garpd
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:51 am

salttee wrote:
To some of us it belongs in the White house outhouse. It is the bust of a man who did everything in his power to make young American men pay with their blood so that Winston could claim to have restored great Britain's empire and Great Britain's glory. No such restoration occurred, but a lot of Americans died in Europe needlessly in deference to Winston's plans.


Revisionist crap. Complete and utter crap.

America was happy to sit out and let her allies fight it out themselves.
Britain had held off the Nazis for almost 3 years before the first US boot hit European soil.

Once in Europe, the American forces did a lot of their own planning and cooperated with British, Australian and other allies movements.
Hell, at times they competed with allied forces to grab glory!

You need to take your head out of your arse and read a damn book or two. I suggest you research an event that happened on December 7, 1941. You'll find this event caused the U.S.A to enter a war they were happy watching from the sidelines and that it has precisely bugger all to do with glory hunting by Winston Churchill.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:26 am

Who cares? The special relationship is worthless. Britain is hardly anywhere near an equal ally. The US needs to have the UK + EU as a special ally. France alone has far more reach in significant places than Britain.
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vrbarreto
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:57 am

It's to remind him that you can kill as many darkies as possible and still be considered by some as a great man...
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:47 pm

garpd wrote:
America was happy to sit out and let her allies fight it out themselves. Britain had held off the Nazis for almost 3 years before the first US boot hit European soil.

Well when Europe began making noises like it wanted to go to war again there was some debate on this side of the pond as to whether we wanted to join in again and in fact which side we wanted to join in with. You see we had these people who we called Republicans who were inclined to side with the central European warloving populist muckymuck over the islander people who had their own warloving populist muckymuck. Sometimes it was hard to tell which way to go, they both hated the Bolsheviks which was all to the good; the central Europeans treated the Jews like dogs while the islanders treated Indians, Palestinians, Sri Lankins and so forth like dogs, so that was all kind of a wash and there were those who were sure the central Europeans were going to win so going with a winner seemed like a smart idea. But we has a president with some family ties to the islanders so he pushed people to go that way. Then we had this big drama queen Edward R. Murrow who put on some bleeding heart radio shows about the poor pitiful islanders and he kinda sold the idea of going that way. Now all this took some time and I know that pains you to this day but you should be happy that we eventually came around to seeing it your way.
garpd wrote:
Once in Europe, the American forces did a lot of their own planning and cooperated with British, Australian and other allies movements.

They did do a lot of planning, but when they brought their plans to Churchill, Winston kept reminding them that the British needed an immediate victory for the moral of the British people lest the British might just throw in the towel and make peace with their central European cousins. So the American plans had to be put aside so that we could implement Winston's plans.
garpd wrote:
Hell, at times they competed with allied forces to grab glory!
Here you must be talking about Patton and MacArthur and there's not much defense for that other than that you had Monty who was every bit as big a jerk as either one of those two.
garpd wrote:
You need to take your head out of your arse and read a damn book or two.
Yes, I'll do that right after you take your head out of your ass.
garpd wrote:
I suggest you research an event that happened on December 7, 1941. You'll find this event caused the U.S.A to enter a war they were happy watching from the sidelines and that it has precisely bugger all to do with glory hunting by Winston Churchill.
Well that was the event that pushed things over the top but it didn't change anything in Europe. Marshall had the US army on track to be ready for offensive operations in about May of 1942, and that's just when the US war effort in Europe actually did begin.

Now it's your turn. Exactly what was the strategic reason for the attempted advance up the mountainous spine of Italy where the allied forces next move was always obvious in advance and they were always operating in the kill zone of the other guy's artillery?

And why were the Germans allowed to harvest their gardens and drink beer in peace along the Scheldt Canal in the fall of 1944? That was in Monty's sector you know.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:59 pm

salttee wrote:
garpd wrote:
America was happy to sit out and let her allies fight it out themselves. Britain had held off the Nazis for almost 3 years before the first US boot hit European soil.

Well when Europe began making noises like it wanted to go to war again there was some debate on this side of the pond as to whether we wanted to join in again and in fact which side we wanted to join in with. You see we had these people who we called Republicans who were inclined to side with the central European warloving populist muckymuck over the islander people who had their own warloving populist muckymuck. Sometimes it was hard to tell which way to go, they both hated the Bolsheviks which was all to the good; the central Europeans treated the Jews like dogs while the islanders treated Indians, Palestinians, Sri Lankins and so forth like dogs, so that was all kind of a wash and there were those who were sure the central Europeans were going to win so going with a winner seemed like a smart idea. But we has a president with some family ties to the islanders so he pushed people to go that way. Then we had this big drama queen Edward R. Murrow who put on some bleeding heart radio shows about the poor pitiful islanders and he kinda sold the idea of going that way. Now all this took some time and I know that pains you to this day but you should be happy that we eventually came around to seeing it your way.
garpd wrote:
Once in Europe, the American forces did a lot of their own planning and cooperated with British, Australian and other allies movements.

They did do a lot of planning, but when they brought their plans to Churchill, Winston kept reminding them that the British needed an immediate victory for the moral of the British people lest the British might just throw in the towel and make peace with their central European cousins. So the American plans had to be put aside so that we could implement Winston's plans.
garpd wrote:
Hell, at times they competed with allied forces to grab glory!
Here you must be talking about Patton and MacArthur and there's not much defense for that other than that you had Monty who was every bit as big a jerk as either one of those two.
garpd wrote:
You need to take your head out of your arse and read a damn book or two.
Yes, I'll do that right after you take your head out of your ass.
garpd wrote:
I suggest you research an event that happened on December 7, 1941. You'll find this event caused the U.S.A to enter a war they were happy watching from the sidelines and that it has precisely bugger all to do with glory hunting by Winston Churchill.
Well that was the event that pushed things over the top but it didn't change anything in Europe. Marshall had the US army on track to be ready for offensive operations in about May of 1942, and that's just when the US war effort in Europe actually did begin.

Now it's your turn. Exactly what was the strategic reason for the attempted advance up the mountainous spine of Italy where the allied forces next move was always obvious in advance and they were always operating in the kill zone of the other guy's artillery?

And why were the Germans allowed to harvest their gardens and drink beer in peace along the Scheldt Canal in the fall of 1944? That was in Monty's sector you know.



This would be the same Monty By the time of the Bulge, Eisenhower and the US generals were already having to admit that Monty's view of strategy (the broad front/narrow front argument) had been correct and that they had been wrong and had caused the war to be extended through into 1945. When the US had to appoint Monty to command US 1st & 9th Armies, it was a tremendous loss of face for the US leadership.

The US Historians belittle the British contribution by pointing out that there were c.500,000 Americans involved in the battle, and only 55,000 British & Commonwealth - but they fail to note that it was Monty and his staff who took control of panicked and routed US formations and very rapidly created the c2 framework which stabilised the northern flank and set the conditions for the German defeat.

Monty was a professional soldier with a track record second to none.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:58 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
This would be the same Monty By the time of the Bulge

You should know that "the bulge" proved Ike right. He assumed that there would be no general attack in that area because it would fail and in the end it would be a suicidal move, and that's exactly what happened.

Dano1977 wrote:
The US Historians belittle the British contribution by pointing out that there were c.500,000 Americans involved in the battle, and only 55,000 British & Commonwealth - but they fail to note that it was Monty and his staff who took control of panicked and routed US formations and very rapidly created the c2 framework which stabilised the northern flank and set the conditions for the German defeat. Monty was a professional soldier with a track record second to none.

US historians don't belittle British contribution at the bulge, they mostly ignore the British while discussing the bulge because there was virtually no British contribution to the battle there. The British did get in a few shots just east of the Muse river on December 25th, but the three panzers they took out were almost out of gas anyway and couldn't have made it across the river in any event. But cherrio, great show I suppose.

As far as Monty being in command, the US communication lines which were mostly hard wired back then had been cut by the German thrust and the US First Army HQ was forced to re-locate so the communications in the Ardennes were split in two; thus, Eisenhower to his eternal regret, assumed that Montgomery was an ally with a functioning HQ and that it would be best to have him coordinate the disparate US divisions who were fighting the battle. Montgomery then made some questionable decisions (withdrawing from St Vith) but that's all water over the dam. However the fact that he later gave a press conference taking credit for a battle that was fought by utterly disconnected US units and had already been won before Monty was even given command was divisive, dishonest and unnecessary.

The battle of the Bulge was won on on December 18th when the US 291st Engineers blew the bridges over the Lienne river in front of the Peiper's combat team which was the advance force for the 6th Panzar Army, the only German unit with a chance to get past the Arndennes. Alternatively, Peiper was stopped on the 19th when his last probe north was turned back near the village of Targnon Belgium by the 1st BN 119th Infantry Regiment of the US 30th Division.

Ike and Army Hq didn't know about these events until long after Monty had been given command.

BTW
Monty doesn't get very good press from knowledgeable people in Britain either.
Daily Mail readers such as yourself still think he was great though.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:28 pm

salttee wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
This would be the same Monty By the time of the Bulge

You should know that "the bulge" proved Ike right. He assumed that there would be no general attack in that area because it would fail and in the end it would be a suicidal move, and that's exactly what happened.

Dano1977 wrote:
The US Historians belittle the British contribution by pointing out that there were c.500,000 Americans involved in the battle, and only 55,000 British & Commonwealth - but they fail to note that it was Monty and his staff who took control of panicked and routed US formations and very rapidly created the c2 framework which stabilised the northern flank and set the conditions for the German defeat. Monty was a professional soldier with a track record second to none.

US historians don't belittle British contribution at the bulge, they mostly ignore the British while discussing the bulge because there was virtually no British contribution to the battle there. The British did get in a few shots just east of the Muse river on December 25th, but the three panzers they took out were almost out of gas anyway and couldn't have made it across the river in any event. But cherrio, great show I suppose.

As far as Monty being in command, the US communication lines which were mostly hard wired back then had been cut by the German thrust and the US First Army HQ was forced to re-locate so the communications in the Ardennes were split in two; thus, Eisenhower to his eternal regret, assumed that Montgomery was an ally with a functioning HQ and that it would be best to have him coordinate the disparate US divisions who were fighting the battle. Montgomery then made some questionable decisions (withdrawing from St Vith) but that's all water over the dam. However the fact that he later gave a press conference taking credit for a battle that was fought by utterly disconnected US units and had already been won before Monty was even given command was divisive, dishonest and unnecessary.

The battle of the Bulge was won on on December 18th when the US 291st Engineers blew the bridges over the Lienne river in front of the Peiper's combat team which was the advance force for the 6th Panzar Army, the only German unit with a chance to get past the Arndennes. Alternatively, Peiper was stopped on the 19th when his last probe north was turned back near the village of Targnon Belgium by the 1st BN 119th Infantry Regiment of the US 30th Division.

Ike and Army Hq didn't know about these events until long after Monty had been given command.

BTW
Monty doesn't get very good press from knowledgeable people in Britain either.
Daily Mail readers such as yourself still think he was great though.


You Sanctimonious.....

British Ground Forces in the Ardennes campaign, 1944;

Elements of 30 Corps to include;

6th Airbourne Div.
51st Highland Div.
53rd Welsh Div.
29th Armoured Brigade
33rd Armoured Brigade
34th Army Tank Brigade

Total Forces Committed were;
55,000, of which 1,400 became Casualties(200+KIA)

The Free French 2°RCP which was part of the SAS Brigade under British command took part in the battle with 200 paratroopers and armed jeeps in order to plug holes in the front. It was engaged on December 30th and fought until the 11th of January in the St Hubert sector of the Belgian Ardennes.


Try reading Charles Whiting's version of the battle of the bulge....

The Battle of the Bulge, fought on the snows of the Ardennes forests in December 1944 and January 1945, was the greatest land battle waged by the US Army in the 20th century. Official history remembers this victory as being one solely for the Americans, but Charles Whiting uncovers fresh new evidence to the contrary. For political reasons, no mention was ever made of the crucial British involvement in this battle, when the XXX Corps fought a decisive action and halted the German drive to the river Meuse, which they did against a total news blackout and at the cost of 2500 men. The British role in the Battle of the Bulge simply does not exist on paper. "The main reason for adopting a low key in referring to the British contribution was political," said Field Marshall Brooke, Chief of Imperial General Staff. Using eyewitness accounts from British, American and German soldiers, even Belgian civilians, this book sets the record straight, telling the true story of the role the British played in this key defeat, and the hardship and suffering they had to endure.
Last edited by Dano1977 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dano1977
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:30 pm

salttee wrote:
garpd wrote:
America was happy to sit out and let her allies fight it out themselves. Britain had held off the Nazis for almost 3 years before the first US boot hit European soil.

Well when Europe began making noises like it wanted to go to war again there was some debate on this side of the pond as to whether we wanted to join in again and in fact which side we wanted to join in with. You see we had these people who we called Republicans who were inclined to side with the central European warloving populist muckymuck over the islander people who had their own warloving populist muckymuck. Sometimes it was hard to tell which way to go, they both hated the Bolsheviks which was all to the good; the central Europeans treated the Jews like dogs while the islanders treated Indians, Palestinians, Sri Lankins and so forth like dogs, so that was all kind of a wash and there were those who were sure the central Europeans were going to win so going with a winner seemed like a smart idea. But we has a president with some family ties to the islanders so he pushed people to go that way. Then we had this big drama queen Edward R. Murrow who put on some bleeding heart radio shows about the poor pitiful islanders and he kinda sold the idea of going that way. Now all this took some time and I know that pains you to this day but you should be happy that we eventually came around to seeing it your way.
garpd wrote:
Once in Europe, the American forces did a lot of their own planning and cooperated with British, Australian and other allies movements.

They did do a lot of planning, but when they brought their plans to Churchill, Winston kept reminding them that the British needed an immediate victory for the moral of the British people lest the British might just throw in the towel and make peace with their central European cousins. So the American plans had to be put aside so that we could implement Winston's plans.
garpd wrote:
Hell, at times they competed with allied forces to grab glory!
Here you must be talking about Patton and MacArthur and there's not much defense for that other than that you had Monty who was every bit as big a jerk as either one of those two.
garpd wrote:
You need to take your head out of your arse and read a damn book or two.
Yes, I'll do that right after you take your head out of your ass.
garpd wrote:
I suggest you research an event that happened on December 7, 1941. You'll find this event caused the U.S.A to enter a war they were happy watching from the sidelines and that it has precisely bugger all to do with glory hunting by Winston Churchill.
Well that was the event that pushed things over the top but it didn't change anything in Europe. Marshall had the US army on track to be ready for offensive operations in about May of 1942, and that's just when the US war effort in Europe actually did begin.

Now it's your turn. Exactly what was the strategic reason for the attempted advance up the mountainous spine of Italy where the allied forces next move was always obvious in advance and they were always operating in the kill zone of the other guy's artillery?

And why were the Germans allowed to harvest their gardens and drink beer in peace along the Scheldt Canal in the fall of 1944? That was in Monty's sector you know.


Antwerp WAS secured before Market-Garden. It was the Schelde waterway leading to Antwerp that needed securing. Specifically the 'Breskens Pocket' on the south bank and Walcheren and South Beveland on the north bank. As Walcheren was heavily fortified and needed a seaborne assault to take, it's difficult to see how this could have been any sooner than it was (in November 1944).
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:39 pm

salttee wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
This would be the same Monty By the time of the Bulge

You should know that "the bulge" proved Ike right. He assumed that there would be no general attack in that area because it would fail and in the end it would be a suicidal move, and that's exactly what happened.

Dano1977 wrote:
The US Historians belittle the British contribution by pointing out that there were c.500,000 Americans involved in the battle, and only 55,000 British & Commonwealth - but they fail to note that it was Monty and his staff who took control of panicked and routed US formations and very rapidly created the c2 framework which stabilised the northern flank and set the conditions for the German defeat. Monty was a professional soldier with a track record second to none.

US historians don't belittle British contribution at the bulge, they mostly ignore the British while discussing the bulge because there was virtually no British contribution to the battle there. The British did get in a few shots just east of the Muse river on December 25th, but the three panzers they took out were almost out of gas anyway and couldn't have made it across the river in any event. But cherrio, great show I suppose.

As far as Monty being in command, the US communication lines which were mostly hard wired back then had been cut by the German thrust and the US First Army HQ was forced to re-locate so the communications in the Ardennes were split in two; thus, Eisenhower to his eternal regret, assumed that Montgomery was an ally with a functioning HQ and that it would be best to have him coordinate the disparate US divisions who were fighting the battle. Montgomery then made some questionable decisions (withdrawing from St Vith) but that's all water over the dam. However the fact that he later gave a press conference taking credit for a battle that was fought by utterly disconnected US units and had already been won before Monty was even given command was divisive, dishonest and unnecessary.

The battle of the Bulge was won on on December 18th when the US 291st Engineers blew the bridges over the Lienne river in front of the Peiper's combat team which was the advance force for the 6th Panzar Army, the only German unit with a chance to get past the Arndennes. Alternatively, Peiper was stopped on the 19th when his last probe north was turned back near the village of Targnon Belgium by the 1st BN 119th Infantry Regiment of the US 30th Division.

Ike and Army Hq didn't know about these events until long after Monty had been given command.

BTW
Monty doesn't get very good press from knowledgeable people in Britain either.
Daily Mail readers such as yourself still think he was great though.




Maps used at the Alllied Press conference.... after the battle
Image
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
SoJo
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:01 am

Aah! We British.... We're so useless. That is until the good old US of A wants to invade certain 'Arab' countries. Yep! We're useless alright. Stupid kids posting what they have read in history books. Really glad I'm getting to old to care anymore. To those that are posting positive things about the UK, thanks. The rest.... You make me sick
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:27 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Antwerp WAS secured before Market-Garden. It was the Schelde waterway leading to Antwerp that needed securing. Specifically the 'Breskens Pocket' on the south bank and Walcheren and South Beveland on the north bank.

Read the sentence just above this in your current post, it reads: And why were the Germans allowed to harvest their gardens and drink beer in peace along the Scheldt Canal in the fall of 1944?
Are you quibbling about spelling?

Dano1977 wrote:
As Walcheren was heavily fortified and needed a seaborne assault to take, it's difficult to see how this could have been any sooner than it was (in November 1944).
That's BS. The dykes were breached by the air force, the Walcheren was mostly under four feet of water, there were no fortifications of any substance. Antwerp wasn't opened up because Churchill and Monty were happy with the supply situation as it was. There were enough supplies to support one offensive only and Churchill twisted Ike's arm and cajoled and begged until that offensive was given to Monty. And of course Monty had no wish to divert any of his troops to relieve the American supply problem.

Monty assumed that after market Garden he would go marching off to the east, sectors would be reassigned and the Americans could open up Antwerp on their own.
And that's the unvarnished truth with no hyperbole or spin. You have been lied to.

The only real British battle in the battle of the bulge was just east of Dinant near a place called Foy-Notre Dame where The British 29th Armoured Brigade engaged a platoon from German commander Cochenhausen's recon force while the Britts were pushing their reconnaissance toward the Lesse River. A bit earlier, they had knocked out three Panthers and some infantry near Sorinne, then shot up more German vehicles and took some very cold and hungry prisoners. There was also a skirmish near Boisselles a few tanks of the British 3d Royal Tank Regiment and some British gunners gave a hand to Task Force A. Remember this was on Christmas, Dec 25th, 9 days after the offensive had begun and 6 days after Pipers column had been stopped cold at the Amblive River and Lienne creek by blown bridges. And it took place after the weather had cleared and the sky was full of allied fighters.

All those units you listed above never saw any action during the Battle of the Bulge, they were moved into blocking position in case the Germans got across the Muse, but the Germans never laid eyes on the Muse, they were stopped at the Amblive.

Any book that says otherwise is hogwash.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:25 am

I just researched St Hubert. It is a town about 14 miles west of Bastone so it appears that the Britts must have operated in that sector after the battle was over which to my mind was at the relief of Bastone on December 26th, at which time all German forces were in retreat or trapped - as at St Hubert. Yet I now see that Wikipedia says the battle went on until January 25th which I find odd. The war didn't end after the bulge. But OK I can see how it's possible to call the mopup as part of the "battle." Just barely.

Yet claiming that the British took part in the battle of the Bulge is a misrepresentation except for the small unit actions mentioned in the post above.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:10 am

Winston Churchill evidently convinced us that we needed to help them and Europe. Obviously he was correct. Obviously we would all would not be here discussing this freely with our British friends and many others if we had not intervened. Obviously the world would be a darker place, Japan comes to mind. Obviously we needed convincing and acting. The Germans made the mistakes that helped us understand the dangers of standing aside, Fight now, or fight later is not hard to understand if you think about it. We finally realized what was coming. Churchill was a motivational figure at that time when he needed to be. That is what sometimes brings out the best in people. Crisis. I think he does belong in the White House as a Tribute to all who died to help us win for them and us. Without Britain as a base to stage and plan the invasion, it would have been one hell of a slog to victory.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:29 am

WarRI1 wrote:

Considering your opinion of Trump, I think if you looked a bit closer at Winston you might be appalled.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:45 am

salttee wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:

Considering your opinion of Trump, I think if you looked a bit closer at Winston you might be appalled.



Read my words again, I mentioned the WW2 era. I said at the time. He stepped forward and Inspired Great Britain which was reeling and hungry at the time and us obviously to defeat the Germans while we could. Japan and Germany on the march and at the time a helpless mainland Europe and an under armed and underfed Soviet Union were in the Frey. The outlook was not good with our Neutrality folks trying to stop us. A Hero or admired persons step up when needed.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:00 am

I read your words and I stand behind my post #20. Churchill was probably history's greatest orator and rha rha cheerleader for war. But if you need a leader who was good at analyzing situations and offering the best course forward you'd do better to look elsewhere. Churchill was a one trick pony.

The British dumped him even before the war was over. Think about that; somebody there must have seen something with a bit more depth than you are showing.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:39 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/z363gk7

I hope this link works, it sums up my argument fairly well.
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LMP737
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:58 am

Here's the problem as i see it when it comes to Winston Churchill. There are politicians in the US, usually republicans, who equate every world event with Munich 1938. They beat the drum of "We can't make that mistake like that again. Remember Winston Churchill! If only he had his way! If we don't act now it will be Munich 1938 all over again." And by act they mean war.

I'm convinced GWB saw himself as some modern day Churchill and that's how we ended up in Iraq. In reality he was nothing more than a modern day LBJ.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:34 am

And that is only half the false argument, the other half is the sneering accusation of "appeasement", the charge brought by Churchill himself, and the rallying cry for warhawks ever since. The goat was Neville Chamberlain who has been slandered and probably will be slandered for all eternity. And it is a false charge, Chamberlain had no option other than to try and make peace with Hitler, while at the same time putting Britain's industry on as much of a wartime program as he possibly could.

The planes that "Churchill won" the Battle of Britain with were built under Chamberlain's direction. The ships that "Churchill won" the battle of the Atlantic with were built by Chamberlain. If Chamberlain had a crystal ball and could have seen the future he wouldn't have been able to do much better than he did.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:20 am

salttee wrote:
And that is only half the false argument, the other half is the sneering accusation of "appeasement", the charge brought by Churchill himself, and the rallying cry for warhawks ever since. The goat was Neville Chamberlain who has been slandered and probably will be slandered for all eternity. And it is a false charge, Chamberlain had no option other than to try and make peace with Hitler, while at the same time putting Britain's industry on as much of a wartime program as he possibly could.

The planes that "Churchill won" the Battle of Britain with were built under Chamberlain's direction. The ships that "Churchill won" the battle of the Atlantic with were built by Chamberlain. If Chamberlain had a crystal ball and could have seen the future he wouldn't have been able to do much better than he did.


Who is the Hero and who is the goat of History? Chamberlain is reviled, Churchill not nearly. Much respected even to this day. I happen to agree and so does history. look at his respect standing in Britain. Right up there, or did I read it wrong? My thoughts about Churchill in no way changes my opinion of Trump.
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salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:29 am

WarRI1 wrote:
My thoughts about Churchill in no way changes my opinion of Trump.

Your thoughts about Churchill are not thoughts, they are emotions, probably first instilled by a Readers Digest piece you read as a child and never once questioned since. You know nothing about the man, you couldn't have "thoughts" about him. You have a lot in common with Trump voters.

Here's a chance to learn something about him. Every one of these failed military operations had Churchill as the person who conceived and ordered them. There are other military blunders which were caused by his meddling or machiavellian directions to underlings (Falaise Gap and the reversal of the plan on the second day of the Sicilian invasion being a good examples).

Inform yourself about these blunders on your own, they are all easy to research.

Gallipoli
Norwegian Campaign
Dieppe Raid
British expedition in Greece
Battle of Crete (and subsequent reversals in Africa)
The campaign in Italy
Market garden

Those blunders cost tens of thousands of British and allied soldiers their lives and there would have been more of these if Field Marshal Alan Brooke hadn't devoted considerable amounts of his time and effort to prevent and overturn Churchill's meddling in military matters. He was a guy very much like Trump, our military genius who was outraged because the Iraqi Army didn't sneak up on ISIS when they began the attack on Mosul. You really should try to warm up to Trump; I think you'll like him if you just read enough adulation pieces from his PR staff.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:17 am

If you think I am going to engage in this type of tit for tat, I am not so inclined. Now wars cost lives, many , many,and your ranting about Churchill and his plans prove nothing. He was in charge, he approved plans for battles like all military leaders do, they plan and direct battles, people die. some plans work, some fail, people still die. Every famous military leader in history is guilty of many deaths, it is the price of war. To me , he served a purpose and that was to inspire and direct the military of England until we had the resources to engage Germany. An important man in a world war and he is in the history books and the White House.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:23 am

WarRI1 wrote:
If you think I am going to engage in this type of tit for tat, I am not so inclined. Now wars cost lives, many , many,and your ranting about Churchill and his plans prove nothing. He was in charge, he approved plans for battles like all military leaders do, they plan and direct battles, people die. some plans work, some fail, people still die. Every famous military leader in history is guilty of many deaths, it is the price of war. To me , he served a purpose and that was to inspire and direct the military of England until we had the resources to engage Germany. An important man in a world war and he is in the history books and the White House.

You jumped in with post 19 spouting nothing but dreary opinions and hero worship given to you by people writing for children and neophytes.
If you don't want to be a part of the discussion here there is an easy way to do that; figure it out on your own.
 
Bongodog1964
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:35 pm

To those spouting the view that Winston Churchill was a British imperialist, determined to do America down, please remember that he was 50% American himself.
In regard to his being soundly rejected by the electorate at the end of WW2, I of course was not there, but I know/knew plenty who were. During the election campaign, Labour fought under the premise that whilst the Conservatives would take peoples social standing back to where it was pre war, Labour promised a land of equality and opportunity for everyone, good homes for the returning soldiers, a National Health service, plenty to eat etc etc. The Conservative reply to this was "that's all very well but unaffordable" 6 years later with rationing still in place the electorate realised they had been conned and Winston returned to power. The Labour government did make some great achievements particularly the National Health Service, but they spent far too much time on nationalisation of industries in order to keep their union bosses happy.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:01 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
To those spouting the view that Winston Churchill was a British imperialist, determined to do America down, please remember that he was 50% American himself.

There has seldom been a politician in the history of the world with a clearer stated nationalistic outlook than Winston Churchill and I believe his outlook was an English outlook rather than a British outlook. Please no hyperbole about me thinking he wanted to "to do America down"; IMO he gave "America" all the importance he allocated to the wallpaper in his study. America was simply a tool for him to use while returning the British Empire to its former glory (make England great again.)
 
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:57 pm

salttee wrote:
Bongodog1964 wrote:
To those spouting the view that Winston Churchill was a British imperialist, determined to do America down, please remember that he was 50% American himself.

There has seldom been a politician in the history of the world with a clearer stated nationalistic outlook than Winston Churchill and I believe his outlook was an English outlook rather than a British outlook. Please no hyperbole about me thinking he wanted to "to do America down"; IMO he gave "America" all the importance he allocated to the wallpaper in his study. America was simply a tool for him to use while returning the British Empire to its former glory (make England great again.)


Whilst the USA was sitting on the sidelines, all that stood between us and the Nazis were the speeches of Winston Churchill. Until of course sitting on the sidelines pretending it was never going to happen resulted in Pearl Harbor.
if he was such an enemy of the USA, can you explain the honours granted to him by that country ?
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:42 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
if he was such an enemy of the USA, can you explain the honours granted to him by that country ?

Where did anyone say that he was an enemy of the USA?

Grow up.
 
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:36 am

salttee wrote:
Bongodog1964 wrote:
if he was such an enemy of the USA, can you explain the honours granted to him by that country ?

Where did anyone say that he was an enemy of the USA?

Grow up.



Grow up ? Who is that is determined to trash the reputation of a man widely respected as the one person who maintained the fight against Nazism. You aren't just out if step with UK opinion, but US opinion as well.
A two word reply accusing someone of having a juvenile attitude just serves to illustrate how weak your argument is.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:21 pm

Bongodog1964 wrote:
Grow up ? Who is that is determined to trash the reputation of a man widely respected as the one person who maintained the fight against Nazism. You aren't just out if step with UK opinion, but US opinion as well.
A two word reply accusing someone of having a juvenile attitude just serves to illustrate how weak your argument is.

You remind me of a devotee in India ranting about one of his sacred cows. You're only argument is one of public opinion, which is exactly what I say has been misled. So yes, your sacred cow rant is juvenile, if you can not carry on an adult conversation or engage in adult debate, you're behaving like a juvenile.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:58 pm

salttee wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
Antwerp WAS secured before Market-Garden. It was the Schelde waterway leading to Antwerp that needed securing. Specifically the 'Breskens Pocket' on the south bank and Walcheren and South Beveland on the north bank.

Read the sentence just above this in your current post, it reads: And why were the Germans allowed to harvest their gardens and drink beer in peace along the Scheldt Canal in the fall of 1944?
Are you quibbling about spelling?

Dano1977 wrote:
As Walcheren was heavily fortified and needed a seaborne assault to take, it's difficult to see how this could have been any sooner than it was (in November 1944).
That's BS. The dykes were breached by the air force, the Walcheren was mostly under four feet of water, there were no fortifications of any substance. Antwerp wasn't opened up because Churchill and Monty were happy with the supply situation as it was. There were enough supplies to support one offensive only and Churchill twisted Ike's arm and cajoled and begged until that offensive was given to Monty. And of course Monty had no wish to divert any of his troops to relieve the American supply problem.

Monty assumed that after market Garden he would go marching off to the east, sectors would be reassigned and the Americans could open up Antwerp on their own.
And that's the unvarnished truth with no hyperbole or spin. You have been lied to.

The only real British battle in the battle of the bulge was just east of Dinant near a place called Foy-Notre Dame where The British 29th Armoured Brigade engaged a platoon from German commander Cochenhausen's recon force while the Britts were pushing their reconnaissance toward the Lesse River. A bit earlier, they had knocked out three Panthers and some infantry near Sorinne, then shot up more German vehicles and took some very cold and hungry prisoners. There was also a skirmish near Boisselles a few tanks of the British 3d Royal Tank Regiment and some British gunners gave a hand to Task Force A. Remember this was on Christmas, Dec 25th, 9 days after the offensive had begun and 6 days after Pipers column had been stopped cold at the Amblive River and Lienne creek by blown bridges. And it took place after the weather had cleared and the sky was full of allied fighters.

All those units you listed above never saw any action during the Battle of the Bulge, they were moved into blocking position in case the Germans got across the Muse, but the Germans never laid eyes on the Muse, they were stopped at the Amblive.

Any book that says otherwise is hogwash.



The British role was twofold. In Dec 44 British troops acted as a strategic reserve, placed behind the Meuse, which provided the Allied front with the necessary depth. Then, in January 45, during a two weeks period, form 3 until 17 Jan, British troops were active in the Ardennes and helped to reduce the enemy salient. They took over the positions of the U.S. VII Corps at the tip of the salient, so as to enable the Americans in the northern sector of the Ardennes, to concentrate their forces east of the Ourthe for the main drive toward Houffalize.

In January 1945 British 6th Airborne Division deployed into the Ardennes and fought the Battle of Bure , this action was primarily fought by 13th Bn Parachute Regiment and C Company 2nd Ox and Bucks , but 7th (LI) Bn Parachute Regt and 12th Bn Parachute Regiment were also in action in the surrounding villages.

These units brought the Panzer Lehr Divison to a standstill when they could have broken out of the Bulge and rolled up the flanks of many of the other units.




I also personally believe, Neville Chamberlain who was ridiculed for waving the piece of paper "Peace in our Time" etc etc. He probably gave the UK 18 months to 2 years to mobilise up ready for war.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
vrbarreto
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:55 pm

Pah. Everyone knows that the battle of the bulge was won by telley savalas and Charles Bronson
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:44 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
The British role was twofold. In Dec 44 British troops acted as a strategic reserve, placed behind the Meuse, which provided the Allied front with the necessary depth. Then, in January 45, during a two weeks period, form 3 until 17 Jan, British troops were active in the Ardennes and helped to reduce the enemy salient. They took over the positions of the U.S. VII Corps at the tip of the salient, so as to enable the Americans in the northern sector of the Ardennes, to concentrate their forces east of the Ourthe for the main drive toward Houffalize.

There are a few points you are missing in your assessment of British involvement in the Battle of the Bulge, the first being the size of the battle. The Battle of the Arndennes occurred when four German armies attacked the US First Army (North to south: German 15th Army, Dietrich's Sixth Panzer Army, Manteuffel's 5th Panzer Army and Brandenberger's 7th Army. The US had 19,246 killed, 62,489 wounded, and 26,612 captured or missing. German losses have been stated as 81,834 casualties. British casualties totaled 200 deaths, almost all of these were in post battle elimination of pockets of trapped german soldiers.

The three British actions:
(1)The strategic reserve was placed to block an enemy advance toward Antwerp in case of a breakthrough - which didn't happen.
(2)The actions east of the Muse - Lessey River junction on December 25th were small unit actions against reconnaissance forces that had already run out of fuel for their vehicles, and are duly noted.
(3)The Bure action will be covered below.

The second point is the historic political background between the British and the Americans caused by British General Montgomery's foolish self indulgent press conference of January 7, 1945 which still leaves a bitter taste in knowledgeable Americans craw seventy two years later; there he said (in a double-badged maroon beret and a parachute harness—“dressed like a clown,” Alan Moorehead):
As soon as I saw what was happening I took certain steps myself to ensure that if the Germans got to the Meuse they would certainly not get over that river. And I carried out certain movements so as to provide balanced dispositions.… I was thinking ahead.… The battle has been most interesting. I think possibly one of the most interesting and tricky battles I have ever handled.
This was a battle that had been decided before he was given command, he did nothing to prevent Germans from crossing that river; when he was given command initially he was no more able to influence events than Bradley, because he had no communication with the actual units fighting the battle either. His only orders in the first days were to retreat.

Dano1977 wrote:
In January 1945 British 6th Airborne Division deployed into the Ardennes and fought the Battle of Bure , this action was primarily fought by 13th Bn Parachute Regiment and C Company 2nd Ox and Bucks , but 7th (LI) Bn Parachute Regt and 12th Bn Parachute Regiment were also in action in the surrounding villages. These units brought the Panzer Lehr Divison to a standstill when they could have broken out of the Bulge and rolled up the flanks of many of the other units.
Elements of Panzer Lehr were found stalled around Bure in early January because they had run out of gas there and were unable to continue their advance to the Muse, they were also unable to retreat back to Germany for the same reason, they were no threat to anyone except the local villagers.

Out of the four German armies involved in the battle, Panzer Lehr was one of the less formidable units from the beginning.
"On December 15, the day before the offensive began, Panzer Lehr was still severely understrength, with only one of its two tank battalions ready for action. In compensation it was reinforced by two tank destroyer battalions and an assault gun brigade. The division's armored reconnaissance battalion was its only organic unit up to full strength."
http://panzerlehr.7forum.net/t2-130th-p ... r-division

Then, on December 20, Panzer Lehr was divided, with half the division left to help 26th Volksgrenadier Division capture Bastogne, while the rest of the division, including most of its armor, continued on toward the Meuse and enjoyed some minor successes, including the capture of a large American convoy, but it ran out of fuel west of St. Hubert, and at least one battalion was then withdrawn to the battle at Bastogne where it was mauled by the 4th Armored division.

The Battle of Bure was a minor action fought after the Battle of the Bulge had been considered to have been over for a week. After the 6th Panzer Army's advance had been halted at the Amblive river and the US Third Army linked up with US First Army at Bastogne, all German units with the wherewithal to withdraw were on their way back to Germany to regroup and this was by December 26th at the latest. Peiper's advance column of the 6th Panzer Army had abandoned their vehicles and headed east on foot by December 20th.

Dano1977 wrote:
I also personally believe, Neville Chamberlain who was ridiculed for waving the piece of paper "Peace in our Time" etc etc. He probably gave the UK 18 months to 2 years to mobilise up ready for war.

Thank you for publicly acknowledging this. My purpose in bringing up the points I have brought up in this post is not to slander the British but to squelch as much as I can the glorification of militarism, in other posts here and in other places I have offered scathing assessments of both Patton and Mac Arthur who I also consider to be frauds foisted on the public by PR campaigns.

Yet for anyone who wants to sing glorious songs of war I suggest that Chamberlain be known as "The father of the Spitfire".
 
vc10
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:07 pm

Why are you all arguing about the battle of the Bulge when this posting is bout the the bust of Churchill, it is a;ways the same on this forum people will argue black is white when their arguments are nothing to do with the opening post. I fyou want to argue about the battle of the Bulge open a new posting
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:26 pm

vc10 wrote:
Why are you all arguing about the battle of the Bulge when this posting is bout the the bust of Churchill, it is a;ways the same on this forum people will argue black is white when their arguments are nothing to do with the opening post. I fyou want to argue about the battle of the Bulge open a new posting
Try to follow the discussion before you comment. And if you don't like the discussion in a particular thread you can always click on another one.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:35 am

salttee wrote:
vc10 wrote:
Why are you all arguing about the battle of the Bulge when this posting is bout the the bust of Churchill, it is a;ways the same on this forum people will argue black is white when their arguments are nothing to do with the opening post. I fyou want to argue about the battle of the Bulge open a new posting
Try to follow the discussion before you comment. And if you don't like the discussion in a particular thread you can always click on another one.



Calm down, what are you drinking? You quoted the wrong person somehow, which is quite common these days for some reason. I stand by my first post, I admire Churchill and the British People who held out until we could get rid of the Pacifist/Isolationist Movement here and gear up for what turned out to be a World War. Churchill was a man for the times, who changed the times and history. His name is well known, well regarded in the US. Deal with it.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
salttee
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:46 am

WarRI1 wrote:
salttee wrote:
vc10 wrote:
Why are you all arguing about the battle of the Bulge when this posting is bout the the bust of Churchill, it is a;ways the same on this forum people will argue black is white when their arguments are nothing to do with the opening post. I fyou want to argue about the battle of the Bulge open a new posting
Try to follow the discussion before you comment. And if you don't like the discussion in a particular thread you can always click on another one.



Calm down, what are you drinking? You quoted the wrong person somehow, which is quite common these days for some reason. I stand by my first post, I admire Churchill and the British People who held out until we could get rid of the Pacifist/Isolationist Movement here and gear up for what turned out to be a World War. Churchill was a man for the times, who changed the times and history. His name is well known, well regarded in the US. Deal with it.

You now nothing about the period and have nothing to say - go away.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Why the Churchill Bust Belongs in the White House

Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:51 am

salttee wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Try to follow the discussion before you comment. And if you don't like the discussion in a particular thread you can always click on another one.



Calm down, what are you drinking? You quoted the wrong person somehow, which is quite common these days for some reason. I stand by my first post, I admire Churchill and the British People who held out until we could get rid of the Pacifist/Isolationist Movement here and gear up for what turned out to be a World War. Churchill was a man for the times, who changed the times and history. His name is well known, well regarded in the US. Deal with it.

You now nothing about the period and have nothing to say - go away.


I do not engage in discussions with hysterical, irrational people if I can help it. Guess what? :redflag:
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