kavok
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:08 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
A second DTW-ICN before MSP-ICN, PDX-ICN makes no sense. As you see with AMS/CDG, ICN will function in a similar manner, which requires some more hub traffic. I think you'll see MSP-ICN, not as a A330-200 flight, but initially maybe a 777-200ER flight, scissoring with MSP-HND, and eventually becoming a A330-900neo flight. The A330-200s are likely staying as TATL planes due to the already occurring 767-300ER retirements. While some think it sounds ridiculous, there's not that much MSP-TYO traffic yet NWA was flying 747-400s daily and twice on Saturdays. ICN will function in a similar manner as NRT once did, hence the 777-200ER is the appropriate aircraft for MSP-ICN, albeit a bit on the large size. The A330-900neo should have slightly fewer seats, hence it being the right fit for MSP-ICN. While not particularly mentioned so far, some "right sizing" in JFK and LAX is more likely than not. I don't think its crazy to think that DL will be flying their metal on JFK/LAX-ICN within the next few years. PDX-ICN is also inevitable, but I think there's a good chance its flown by KE instead of DL. SLC-ICN is very unlikely due to the high altitude of SLC unless its flown by KE on a 787-9. Question I have is what to do about HNL-Japan. KE does fly HNL-NRT as does DL. With the HNL-Japan market about to become incredibly over-saturated in the next few years with ANA's A380s and continued expansion by Asian LCCs, DL will more likely than not pull out entirely or KE will exit the HNL-NRT in favour of Delta keeping the HNL-NRT flight. Definitely a possibility DL will fly a HNL-ICN frequency with their own metal.



All very good points. It will be interesting to see what DL metal still remains at NRT once the JV is fully up and running.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:20 am

Re: HNL <-> Asia under the JV. Most likely: KE will drop the 5th Freedom route HNL/NRT, DL will continue HNL/NRT, and both will fly HNL/ICN.
Possible: KE operates ICN/HNL/NRT using LJ (Jin Air) but other ICN/NRT frequencies stay on KE metal. DL continues to serve HNL/NRT, and both will fly HNL/ICN.

Rationale: HNL/NRT is a cashcow for DL, even after all west-bound cuts ex-NRT. DL won't walk away from that. In contrast, LCC traffic ex-Japan, combined with nonstops ICN/HNL for ex-ICN connections, will negatively impact KE's NRT/HNL yields.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:00 am

kavok wrote:
All very good points. It will be interesting to see what DL metal still remains at NRT once the JV is fully up and running.


NRT-MNL/SIN are gone sooner versus later. I have to think there's no way Delta would consider flying MNL from SEA or LAX but we've all seen stranger thinks. Nevertheless, chances are quite small. NRT-SIN is the interesting one as I'm not so sure Delta is willing to pull out of the SIN market and leave it to SQ/UA. Hell, NRT-SIN still exits with only onward connections from ATL/DTW/PDX/SEA/HNL and NRT itself of course. Not exactly a whole lot of feed without double connects. Its possible, though not probable, Delta would like to start SEA-SIN nonstop. Does Delta have the right equipment for such a flight? No. Had NW stuck around and took delivery of the 787-8, none of the terrible teens which they were projected to take, NW would be flying SEA-SIN with a 787-8. If Delta had the 787-9, its more likely than not they'd be flying SEA-SIN. The 77L is just too large for SEA-SIN but then again Delta is flying 777s on MSP-HND although their hand has been forced here. Does Delta want to bleed some ink in order to save contracts to SIN? Quite possible yes.

As for the rest, I guess you would say we're in a holding pattern no pun intended. It really depends on how much more daytime HND will open up to US flying in time for the 2020 Olympics. If only two more slots open up, they're going to UA/AA. Three or more, personally I don't think more than three will open up if that many to begin with, Delta will likely have their hands on another HND flight, this time most likely ATL-HND. DTW-NRT will not go anywhere. As discussed ad nauseam, Delta has local demand in DTW for TYO. Likewise, SEA-NRT won't go anywhere although it would be something if either NH or JAL were to start HND-SEA. Its possible Delta would prefer having SEA-HND instead of ATL-NRT if given preference choices. ATL-NRT alone can exist as its the only flight in the SE with a nonstop flight to TYO. I can't see either NH or JAL starting this flight, there are many more better destinations than ATL. Regardless, ATL-TYO flying is safe. PDX-NRT will exist until NH or JAL start NRT-PDX. Then that gives Delta the excuse to start PDX-ICN and drop PDX-NRT. TYO is the largest international market for PDX, hence even with NRT downgauging, it can exist independently. I highly thought there are many passengers headed to MNL or SIN on the PDX-NRT flight. HNL-Japan has been previously mentioned.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:55 am

I think NRT/MNL will go, but I think NRT/SIN will survive the JV, since the a/c utilization on NRT/SIN is as close to 100% as possible for a pax a/c... 1x daily yoyo, like ATL/HNL, with high LF. Unload, refuel, crew change (unlike ATL/HNL, no need for a relief pilot), load, and go, 365 days a year. HNL/FUK and HNL/KIX are the same, 1x daily yoyo.

I'm surprised that DL doesn't use the HNL/NGO frame more... maybe NGO/MNL or NGO/TPE, rather than have it RON at NGO (probably RON at NGO due to scheduling at the LAX end of DL 611/612).

I would not be surprised to see DL try some more yoyo routes ex-HNL to Japan, like HNL/HIJ, when the JV allows more fliexibility.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue May 01, 2018 2:39 pm

FYI - The JV is in effect now. Delta updated its page to reflect that KE is now a Tier 1 partner.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue May 01, 2018 5:13 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
FYI - The JV is in effect now. Delta updated its page to reflect that KE is now a Tier 1 partner.

That's great news!
Where on the website does DL show the different tiered partners after the website refresh? It used to be under airline partners but now I only see the partners and the miles earning methods for each airline. I do not see the table showing the different tiered partners anymore.
https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... tners.html
 
klakzky123
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Tue May 01, 2018 6:11 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
FYI - The JV is in effect now. Delta updated its page to reflect that KE is now a Tier 1 partner.

That's great news!
Where on the website does DL show the different tiered partners after the website refresh? It used to be under airline partners but now I only see the partners and the miles earning methods for each airline. I do not see the table showing the different tiered partners anymore.
https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... tners.html


Click on Korean Air and check the new mileage calculations. They dont list the tiers anymore but you can compare KE's mileage to a Tier 1 partner like Air France and see that it is now in line.

Also the pricing on flights to and from ICN changed. Before the JV, KE flights always had a premium over Delta. Now I'm seeing KE flights priced identically or cheaper.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:15 am

As a result of the JV, MSP-ICN starts April 1st, 2018 and KE has announced BOS-ICN to start April 12th.

What's the next logical add for the JV? I'd say SLC-ICN is up there.
klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Because they both operate to SEA and ATL so are you then advocating that either KE or DL drop ATL and SEA to ICN. After all DTW is their primary gateway to Asia from the better part of the USA so you would think KE would want to tap into that and being that the market is going to shrink shortly when the 747 is replaced with the A350 here is room for both in the Detroit market.


I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.



Due to the automotive industry there is a lot of Korean-Detroit traffic and most of that traffic is Korean based. I would think that if you match the demand for DTW and ATL to Korea you will see that it doesn't warrant 2 dailies from ATL-ICN and can't say for SEA but seats verse O/D in the Detroit and Atlanta market you will see that the percentage of O/D is greater in the Detroit market verse the Atlanta market and let face it Detroit is the flagship hub to Asia for Delta certainly warranting a KE DTW-ICN nomstop. Why would DL or KE add MSP-ICN when they can barely make Tokyo work under the current strategy in which Delta operates it's Asian network.


Yet here we are.
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:43 am

777Mech wrote:
As a result of the JV, MSP-ICN starts April 1st, 2018 and KE has announced BOS-ICN to start April 12th.

What's the next logical add for the JV? I'd say SLC-ICN is up there.
klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm 90% sure that both SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN are bigger local markets than DTW-ICN. Sure, DTW-ICN has auto related traffic, but apart from that my gut feeling tells me that flight is mostly filled with connections from markets throughout the eastern U.S. Keep in mind that with the JV coming online, DL can now also send passengers nonstop from IAD and JFK to ICN on KE rather than having to funnel them through DTW. They'll also likely be selling some connections through JFK. And if MSP-ICN is started up like many are guessing, that's another reason why DTW-ICN on a 359 might be plenty of capacity to handle the local market and some connections from mid-sized markets like BNA, RDU, and BUF that won't have nonstops any time soon.



Due to the automotive industry there is a lot of Korean-Detroit traffic and most of that traffic is Korean based. I would think that if you match the demand for DTW and ATL to Korea you will see that it doesn't warrant 2 dailies from ATL-ICN and can't say for SEA but seats verse O/D in the Detroit and Atlanta market you will see that the percentage of O/D is greater in the Detroit market verse the Atlanta market and let face it Detroit is the flagship hub to Asia for Delta certainly warranting a KE DTW-ICN nomstop. Why would DL or KE add MSP-ICN when they can barely make Tokyo work under the current strategy in which Delta operates it's Asian network.


Yet here we are.


Yep, it's funny to hear from people who have no clue about Delta's business, and how good things are.

MSP-ICN and 2x ATL-ICN is justified. Now KE is adding BOS-ICN.
 
KMCOFlyer
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:52 am

I wonder if we will ever see LAX-ICN or JFK-ICN soon on DL metal? DL currently only has HND and PVG Asia service from LAX on DL metal and no Asia service from JFK.
 
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janders
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:13 pm

Bastian in an interview this week.

Bastian said Korean Air has been a "fabulous partner" in their recent joint venture, particularly with the new terminal at Korea's Incheon International Airport that exclusively serves the carrier and its partners. As such, Delta continues to shift its Asia traffic away from Japan and toward Seoul.

At the time of its merger with Northwest, about 90 percent of Delta's Asia traffic went through Tokyo. That is down to about a third, and it "probably will be at zero at some point," Bastian said. Operations at Tokyo's Narita International Airport are "not sustainable," given that the international terminal at the closer-in Haneda Airport is opening in the last decade and that Delta lacks a partner in Japan; both United and American have Japan partners, he said.

The partnership with Korean Air has connected Delta to 80 destinations in Asia, including about 30 in China, while Narita connected Delta to only a handful of destinations, Bastian said.


http://www.businesstravelnews.com/Trans ... Free-Wi-Fi
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:37 pm

Still waiting for DTW-ICN to be added on KE so Detroit can be brought up to speed like SEA and ATL after all Mr. Bastian says DTW is it's gateway to Asia yet it has less flights to Seoul than both ATL and SEA and before the JV it had the most seats to ICN.


“It’s our main Asian gateway to the U.S. is Detroit, and I think you’ll see us build on that as we go. … We compete for travelers over Detroit versus Chicago or versus other Midwestern cities, and customers continue to prefer traveling and transiting over Detroit. There’s more reliability. The connections are better,” Bastian said.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:51 pm

I wonder if/when KE will terminate its partnership with AS.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:56 pm

klm617 wrote:
Still waiting for DTW-ICN to be added on KE so Detroit can be brought up to speed like SEA and ATL after all Mr. Bastian says DTW is it's gateway to Asia yet it has less flights to Seoul than both ATL and SEA and before the JV it had the most seats to ICN.


“It’s our main Asian gateway to the U.S. is Detroit, and I think you’ll see us build on that as we go. … We compete for travelers over Detroit versus Chicago or versus other Midwestern cities, and customers continue to prefer traveling and transiting over Detroit. There’s more reliability. The connections are better,” Bastian said.


Both SEA and ATL are both larger markets to ICN than DTW. DTW should not be compared to these cities as it serves a different purpose. DTW-ICN does not need two daily flights (especially with BOS-ICN starting, which carried a lot of BOS-ICN traffic), clearly SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN do. You think KE flies the 748 and A380 alongside DL for s*its and giggles? ATL-ICN is a huge market, as you've been told multiple times.

Jeremy
 
mackdad
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:15 pm

The big question, when is KE going to let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN. They have those markets all to themselves. The traffic between LAX-ICN is huge.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:18 pm

janders wrote:

The partnership with Korean Air has connected Delta to 80 destinations in Asia, including about 30 in China, while Narita connected Delta to only a handful of destinations, Bastian said.[/i]


Bit poor journalism. China is excluded from the JV.

And in reality, the agreement covers - 36 routes within Asia per their own press release., not the 80.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:58 pm

SESGDL wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Still waiting for DTW-ICN to be added on KE so Detroit can be brought up to speed like SEA and ATL after all Mr. Bastian says DTW is it's gateway to Asia yet it has less flights to Seoul than both ATL and SEA and before the JV it had the most seats to ICN.


“It’s our main Asian gateway to the U.S. is Detroit, and I think you’ll see us build on that as we go. … We compete for travelers over Detroit versus Chicago or versus other Midwestern cities, and customers continue to prefer traveling and transiting over Detroit. There’s more reliability. The connections are better,” Bastian said.


Both SEA and ATL are both larger markets to ICN than DTW. DTW should not be compared to these cities as it serves a different purpose. DTW-ICN does not need two daily flights (especially with BOS-ICN starting, which carried a lot of BOS-ICN traffic), clearly SEA-ICN and ATL-ICN do. You think KE flies the 748 and A380 alongside DL for s*its and giggles? ATL-ICN is a huge market, as you've been told multiple times.

Jeremy


But before the JV for some reason Delta didn't even operate ATL-ICN alongside KE. Does anyone have the PDEW on DTW-ICN and ATL-ICN
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
hoons90
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:06 pm

klm617 wrote:


But before the JV for some reason Delta didn't even operate ATL-ICN alongside KE. Does anyone have the PDEW on DTW-ICN and ATL-ICN


DL ran ATL-ICN 4-5x per week from June 2007 to August 2009 with the 772. DL90/91.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
mackdad
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:42 pm

ATL has a large and growing Korean community.
It’s gotten so big they transmit over the air 3 Korean channels. KBS, MBC and a religious channel. Almost every mom and pop wing restaurant is owned and run by Koreans. Half the Presbyterian churches have Korean service. Many of the failed groceries stores have been bought up by Koreans and opened up as multi-ethnicity grocery stores. When Target closed up near where I lived they bought it up and opened it as nan dae mun market grocery. This place serves street food that I could get when I go to Korea. Ever since South Korea entered in the Visa waiver program travel to the US exploded. Many Koreans have come to the US looking for cheap land and business opportunities. The O-D to and from ICN-ATL is a lot bigger then many people think it is. Any Anet member that lives in Atlanta can confirm this.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:49 pm

mackdad wrote:
The big question, when is KE going to let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN. They have those markets all to themselves. The traffic between LAX-ICN is huge.


After the departure of SQ, it is a good time for DL ​​to take the LAX-ICN route!
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:51 pm

mackdad wrote:
The big question, when is KE going to let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN. They have those markets all to themselves. The traffic between LAX-ICN is huge.


KE offers nearly 5600 weekly seats on JFK-ICN using premium heavy A388s. I doubt DL would be interested in flying that route on its own metal. Now, LAX-ICN, that could happen on an A359.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:19 am

"Operations at Tokyo's Narita International Airport are 'not sustainable,' "... in the quote of Bastian above. Good bye, NRT Sky Club. Hello, Morning Calm.
 
alfa164
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:43 am

LAXintl wrote:
janders wrote:
The partnership with Korean Air has connected Delta to 80 destinations in Asia, including about 30 in China, while Narita connected Delta to only a handful of destinations, Bastian said.[/i]

Bit poor journalism. China is excluded from the JV.
And in reality, the agreement covers - 36 routes within Asia per their own press release., not the 80.


The JV agreement covers 36 routes, but DL and KE do codeshare on the China routes - thus the 80 connections in Asia, totaling both JV and codeshare routes, I would bet.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
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tphuang
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:13 pm

DL's unit revenue to Asia is up 4.8% YoY. Looks like this JV is working pretty well.
 
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janders
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
DL's unit revenue to Asia is up 4.8% YoY. Looks like this JV is working pretty well.


Lets wait to see how others like UA do. From all comments appears the market overall is doing well, so its likely a matter of the tide raising all the ships.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
klakzky123
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:04 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
"Operations at Tokyo's Narita International Airport are 'not sustainable,' "... in the quote of Bastian above. Good bye, NRT Sky Club. Hello, Morning Calm.


Doubt there will be any major changes until 2020 when the next round of Haneda slots are released. I think Delta will try and get as many pairs as they can get, move some of the NRT flights to HND and then cut the rest of the NRT flights. Presumably the fifth freedom flights are ended at this time as well.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:58 pm

klakzky123 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
"Operations at Tokyo's Narita International Airport are 'not sustainable,' "... in the quote of Bastian above. Good bye, NRT Sky Club. Hello, Morning Calm.


Doubt there will be any major changes until 2020 when the next round of Haneda slots are released. I think Delta will try and get as many pairs as they can get, move some of the NRT flights to HND and then cut the rest of the NRT flights. Presumably the fifth freedom flights are ended at this time as well.


could DL shift the NRT 5th freedom flights to ICN? It would really suck to see them lose SIN on their own metal. Though it would be cool for them to operate SIN from the states at some point.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:33 pm

jumbojet wrote:
could DL shift the NRT 5th freedom flights to ICN?

Freedoms of the Air are defined in a bilateral ASA. 5th FOA granted under the JP/US ASA are completely independent of the FOA under the KR/US ASA. If DL wanted to start ICN/SIN, I sure it would be possible, but if the FOA for ICN/SIN is not in the KR/US ASA now in force, the ASA would require amendment.

What will Glen H. do? My guess is DL will start SEA/SIN on an A359 before doing a tag from ICN. From past flights on SIN/NRT, more than half the pax go into the NRT transit lounge.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:26 am

mackdad wrote:
The big question, when is KE going to let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN. They have those markets all to themselves. The traffic between LAX-ICN is huge.

Why will KE let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN? KE flies multiple A380s to both cities.. DL does not have the aircraft to match the capacity
 
B752OS
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 am

Does anyone know what the top 10 PDEW markets are to ICN in the US?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:57 am

DTWLAX wrote:
mackdad wrote:
The big question, when is KE going to let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN. They have those markets all to themselves. The traffic between LAX-ICN is huge.

Why will KE let DL do LAX-ICN and JFK-ICN? KE flies multiple A380s to both cities.. DL does not have the aircraft to match the capacity


Why does DL have to match capacity? DL can put an A359 for additional capacity. KE can use smaller aircraft and still have more capacity with DL.
 
klakzky123
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Re: Delta and Korean sign JVA

Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:57 pm

jumbojet wrote:
klakzky123 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
"Operations at Tokyo's Narita International Airport are 'not sustainable,' "... in the quote of Bastian above. Good bye, NRT Sky Club. Hello, Morning Calm.


Doubt there will be any major changes until 2020 when the next round of Haneda slots are released. I think Delta will try and get as many pairs as they can get, move some of the NRT flights to HND and then cut the rest of the NRT flights. Presumably the fifth freedom flights are ended at this time as well.


could DL shift the NRT 5th freedom flights to ICN? It would really suck to see them lose SIN on their own metal. Though it would be cool for them to operate SIN from the states at some point.


There's no point. KE flies to MNL and SIN from ICN. And those two fifth freedom routes would require valuable HND slots. It would be wiser to use those slots on flights to the US.

But legally speaking, I think DL can operate fifth freedom flights from HND. But from a practical matter, it doesn't make sense

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