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Tugger
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It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:09 am

Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it. So it is important to not believe in it as if you do you could become trapped by the idea of poverty and will not be able to succeed or overcome the drag of being "poor".

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg
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Airstud
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:34 am

Tugger wrote:
There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.


Gross.
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Francoflier
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:39 am

Exactly.

Given how much it has been repeated on conservative media and by rich conservative politicans over the years in the US, you'd think it was common knowledge by now that poor people are poor by choice and laziness, and that everybody could be wealthy if they wanted it hard enough.

So why pay for healthcare or proper education for them, if it's their own fault anyway, right?

</sarcasm>
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MaverickM11
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:41 am

Tugger wrote:
Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg

If you think being poor is easy, you should try it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:57 am

Ayn Rand was full of shit.

Poverty is a word used to describe an economic condition. It is a noun and as such it is a "thing." When a person exists in a circumstance where their skills, talents and knowledge (or health - mental or physical) leave them at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of society, they will find themselves in the economic condition of poverty unless the rest of the members of society make allowances for them, and even this is only possible in an extremely bountiful society.

If you don't believe me, look around.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 5:43 am

Tugger wrote:
Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it. So it is important to not believe in it as if you do you could become trapped by the idea of poverty and will not be able to succeed or overcome the drag of being "poor".

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg


You are joking, right?

Would you mind revealing something about your standing in society? Level of education, financial class position, fields of endeavor?

Just in general, no need to divulge personal information of any kind.

Might help in understanding where you are coming from.

Thanks.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 5:45 am

salttee wrote:
When a person exists in a circumstance where their skills, talents and knowledge (or health - mental or physical) leave them at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of society, they will find themselves in the economic condition of poverty


Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?
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B777LRF
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 6:15 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?


Would those poor choices include a choice of the wrong parents, country or continent or would it, perhaps, include a poorly chosen medical, physical or mental, condition?
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RoySFlying
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 6:19 am

Tugger wrote:

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves.


Sure, anyone can but not everyone can. The very notion of winners requires that there be losers and that effort is not enough. Opportunity and ability enter into the equation.

But you are right in one respect. Poverty is not a "thing" but a condition and it is relative. Whether people can raise themselves out of poverty can depend on factors out of their control. For example, what realistic choices does an impoverished child have in war-torn Somalia, compared with an adult person living on the streets in Australia? In the former there a few social supports: in the latter there are all sorts of agencies that can provide avenues for change, including temporary shelter, education and training.

Belief in success can be of benefit but it needs to be firmly rooted in a realistic plan of action. But neither provide any guarantees.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:08 pm

B777LRF wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?


Would those poor choices include a choice of the wrong parents, country or continent or would it, perhaps, include a poorly chosen medical, physical or mental, condition?


None of the above; but obviously you knew that and are just being obtuse for the sake of being so.

Once again, would you agree that poverty isn't something that "just happens" and requires one or more poor choices to either arrive at or remain in?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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330west
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:52 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?


Would those poor choices include a choice of the wrong parents, country or continent or would it, perhaps, include a poorly chosen medical, physical or mental, condition?


None of the above; but obviously you knew that and are just being obtuse for the sake of being so.

Once again, would you agree that poverty isn't something that "just happens" and requires one or more poor choices to either arrive at or remain in?


I think you should consult Webster's on the definition of obtuse and then maybe a shrink for whatever complex it is that makes you think this way.
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EA CO AS
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 4:57 pm

330west wrote:
I think you should consult Webster's on the definition of obtuse


I'd suggest the same for you, as you appear to believe it only applies to angles.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
330west
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 5:21 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Would you mind revealing something about your standing in society? Level of education, financial class position, fields of endeavor?

Just in general, no need to divulge personal information of any kind.

Might help in understanding where you are coming from.

Thanks.


Rich, poor or in between it sounds classless and ignorant regardless of whose ass it came out of.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
salttee
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 5:35 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
When a person exists in a circumstance where their skills, talents and knowledge (or health - mental or physical) leave them at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of society, they will find themselves in the economic condition of poverty


Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?

Your diagnosis is shallow to the extreme. A parallel would be a person who has defined the cause of car accidents to be the fact that cars run into each other, therefore the solution to the problem of traffic accidents would be to teach everyone not to run into each other (or trees, viaducts or pedestrians) ; simple as that. Just keep repeating it until everybody "gets" it.

But the real way traffic accidents are reduced, has shown itself to be much more complicated than that. People are awarded graduate level degrees for studying the ways to accomplish a reduction in traffic accidents.
 
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 6:03 pm

salttee wrote:
Your diagnosis is shallow to the extreme.


You're not seriously asserting that people who experience poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others, then?

I agree that poverty exists, but if you're being intellectually honest, you must also agree that personal choices, at some point, are not only a factor in getting there, but also escaping it.

Otherwise, you're saying that not only does poverty "just happen" to people out of the blue, but that those afflicted can only see their lot in life improve based on the benevolence of others.
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salttee
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 6:46 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
You're not seriously asserting that people who experience poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others, then?

Yes I most certainly am saying that the vast majority of people in poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others.

If there was a way of returning the United States to its level of world economic dominance that it enjoyed post WW2, then a substantial number of Americans would be able to find jobs that would take them out of poverty, but that would only be for Americans, the rest of the planet's third world populace would still be in a hopeless condition. But as it is, with poverty level Americans competing for jobs with third world immigrants there is almost no hope. There are a statistically small number of exceptions of course, but that works in both directions, as there are currently more people falling out of self sufficiency than are gaining new access to it.

IMO you would probably make a good computer programmer where the complexities before you are in binary form, but you don't seem to have an ability to understand the complexities of the human condition. A simple choice on your part would correct that deficiency, and gain you an understanding of your fellow man, but you are caught in the same conundrum that you are railing against.
 
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 6:55 pm

salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
You're not seriously asserting that people who experience poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others, then?


Yes I most certainly am saying that the vast majority of people in poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others.



The "vast majority" does not equal all. In other words, you're agreeing that it is possible for some - perhaps not all, but some - to escape poverty by making the choice to do so.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
salttee
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 7:02 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
You're not seriously asserting that people who experience poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others, then?


Yes I most certainly am saying that the vast majority of people in poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others.



The "vast majority" does not equal all. In other words, you're agreeing that it is possible for some - perhaps not all, but some - to escape poverty by making the choice to do so.

I stated it above as "a statistically small number".
 
LittleFokker
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 7:24 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
You're not seriously asserting that people who experience poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others, then?


Yes I most certainly am saying that the vast majority of people in poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others.



The "vast majority" does not equal all. In other words, you're agreeing that it is possible for some - perhaps not all, but some - to escape poverty by making the choice to do so.


So because a few caused their own poverty and refuse to get out of it, screw all of them right? What an asshole viewpoint on the world.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 7:58 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
I agree that poverty exists, but if you're being intellectually honest, you must also agree that personal choices, at some point, are not only a factor in getting there, but also escaping it.

Otherwise, you're saying that not only does poverty "just happen" to people out of the blue, but that those afflicted can only see their lot in life improve based on the benevolence of others.


Surely you would agree that (some, many) people are born into poverty? Almost as surely the mother would have chosen not to have been there.

Now, how does this child elevate himself from the state of poverty? Just pick from a menu?

I'll wait for your list of menu options (choices) that you assign to him before going on.

Thanks.
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 11:19 pm

LittleFokker wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:

Yes I most certainly am saying that the vast majority of people in poverty have absolutely no chance of escaping it without the assistance of others.



The "vast majority" does not equal all. In other words, you're agreeing that it is possible for some - perhaps not all, but some - to escape poverty by making the choice to do so.


So because a few caused their own poverty and refuse to get out of it, screw all of them right? What an asshole viewpoint on the world.


Where did I say that? Go Fokker yourself.
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EA CO AS
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Mon May 22, 2017 11:31 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
I agree that poverty exists, but if you're being intellectually honest, you must also agree that personal choices, at some point, are not only a factor in getting there, but also escaping it.

Otherwise, you're saying that not only does poverty "just happen" to people out of the blue, but that those afflicted can only see their lot in life improve based on the benevolence of others.


Surely you would agree that (some, many) people are born into poverty? Almost as surely the mother would have chosen not to have been there.

Now, how does this child elevate himself from the state of poverty? Just pick from a menu?

I'll wait for your list of menu options (choices) that you assign to him before going on.

Thanks.


Absolutely, some are born into poverty. I'm not disputing that.

You want a menu, though? Well, it starts with the parents; hopefully, they make the right choices to make things better for their child than it was/is for them. That's every parent's goal, right? Yes, not all can do that - but that doesn't mean NONE can either, and that's my point - there are people who work themselves out of poverty. It's not a black hole from which there is zero chance of escape, which is what I'm hearing from some here.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MaverickM11
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 2:46 am

B777LRF wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?


Would those poor choices include a choice of the wrong parents, country or continent or would it, perhaps, include a poorly chosen medical, physical or mental, condition?

Clearly you need to choose to be born to wealthy parents so you can be more worthless than a male Kardashian, like all the living Trumps or Betsy Devos! If that fails, sleep your way into money!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 4:44 am

LittleFokker wrote:
So because a few caused their own poverty and refuse to get out of it, screw all of them right? What an asshole viewpoint on the world.

That's the alpha and omega of Republican Christianity for you.

EA CO AS wrote:
You want a menu, though? Well, it starts with the parents; hopefully, they make the right choices to make things better for their child than it was/is for them. That's every parent's goal, right? Yes, not all can do that - but that doesn't mean NONE can either, and that's my point - there are people who work themselves out of poverty. It's not a black hole from which there is zero chance of escape, which is what I'm hearing from some here.

There's a reason it's called the poverty *trap*, or poverty *cycle*, because if it doesn't "start with the parents", then what? Game over. For some parents they simply can't provide for children between commuting to three different part time jobs that don't pay health insurance. For others they simply don't care, for any number of reasons. The world/white house is full of rich brat #@&$-ups that would be in prison were it not for the means their parents had to bail them out. Now take away those means, connections, and endless second chances--good luck trying to escape that life.
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 5:48 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
So because a few caused their own poverty and refuse to get out of it, screw all of them right? What an asshole viewpoint on the world.

That's the alpha and omega of Republican Christianity for you.

EA CO AS wrote:
You want a menu, though? Well, it starts with the parents; hopefully, they make the right choices to make things better for their child than it was/is for them. That's every parent's goal, right? Yes, not all can do that - but that doesn't mean NONE can either, and that's my point - there are people who work themselves out of poverty. It's not a black hole from which there is zero chance of escape, which is what I'm hearing from some here.

There's a reason it's called the poverty *trap*, or poverty *cycle*, because if it doesn't "start with the parents", then what? Game over. For some parents they simply can't provide for children between commuting to three different part time jobs that don't pay health insurance. For others they simply don't care, for any number of reasons. The world/white house is full of rich brat #@&$-ups that would be in prison were it not for the means their parents had to bail them out. Now take away those means, connections, and endless second chances--good luck trying to escape that life.



Right, so once again, everyone is a victim, no one can ever do anything to better themselves, and it's all up to the benevolence of others to make it happen.

Democrats only, though - right? Even thought study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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salttee
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 5:58 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Right, so once again, everyone is a victim, no one can ever do anything to better themselves, and it's all up to the benevolence of others to make it happen.

Nobody in this thread or probably anywhere else has ever said that. What do you need this forum for if you can just have arguments with yourself?

EA CO AS wrote:
study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...

Are these Fox News studies?
 
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 6:01 am

Tugger wrote:
Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it.

Oh yeah! Just like Global Warming!

Tugger wrote:
There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.
Tugg

So true! Why spend all that money on undesirables, when corporates are dying for lack of Tax Breaks!
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MaverickM11
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 6:27 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Right, so once again, everyone is a victim, no one can ever do anything to better themselves, and it's all up to the benevolence of others to make it happen.

You're reading words that aren't there. But hey it's so much more satisfying to blame people for their situation right? So much easier than dealing with the messy context and thinking about the complex causes of poverty and the even more difficult solutions. Few are asking for "benevolence" or "charity" unless decent schools, affordable housing, above-minimum wage jobs, lead-free tap water, an end to mass incarceration, and healthcare are considered charity now...
EA CO AS wrote:
Democrats only, though - right? Even thought study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...

Oh yawn get off your cross. How are republicans trying to help break the cycle today? They don't need charity, and a zillion dollar endowment to a university or a huge donation to some useless megachurch isn't going to do jack for them.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Tue May 23, 2017 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 6:32 am

Tugger wrote:
Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it. So it is important to not believe in it as if you do you could become trapped by the idea of poverty and will not be able to succeed or overcome the drag of being "poor".

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg


Has BMI hacked your account???
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 7:12 am

salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...

Are these Fox News studies?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lanthropy/

A major survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy confirms that residents of states that lean Republican and are most religious donate more of their money to charity, while more secular regions — and areas that tend to vote Democrat — give less.
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 10:59 am

well if poverty " doesn't exist," then we really should just focus on reducing inequality.. or is the OP saying inequality doesn't exist either?
 
330west
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 12:13 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...

Are these Fox News studies?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lanthropy/

A major survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy confirms that residents of states that lean Republican and are most religious donate more of their money to charity, while more secular regions — and areas that tend to vote Democrat — give less.


But where's that money going? Who are they donating to?
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johns624
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 12:24 pm

330west wrote:

But where's that money going? Who are they donating to?
Exactly. I think of there being three types of "charities". The first is donating to your church. The second is donating to other nonprofit organizations that aren't service-oriented. The third is the only one that I consider real. That's when you give money to Goodwill, Salvation Army and other groups that actually help the disadvantaged.
 
330west
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 12:30 pm

If they're just giving to their churches, they might as well be going out and buying meth or heroin. I'd probably respect them more in that case. At least they're doing something for the economy.
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 1:07 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
When a person exists in a circumstance where their skills, talents and knowledge (or health - mental or physical) leave them at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of society, they will find themselves in the economic condition of poverty


Would you agree, though, that "poverty" doesn't simply happen to someone, and that it requires, at some point, one or more poor choices made by that individual?


I'm not sure you have much of a concept of what happens in countries not called the USA. Some people can work their way out of poverty, but they are lucky ones. Some people cannot. Being born is not a choice, and you don't decide what you get dealt. When you are born, you may not have access to good enough education and healthcare, and given that there are a finite number of jobs that can really get them out of poverty, it becomes difficult for them to compete, because no education, not healthy enough. Breaking out of poverty in the poorer countries of the world is close to impossible for some. Add into that the lack of contraception (so too many people being born) and you're stuck in a cycle. No means to gain wealth, no wealth being given/shared, too many people so wealth is shared thin.

My credentials? I've studied Geography up to degree level. I'm no geographical super genius, but I know my way around.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 1:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats...

Are these Fox News studies?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lanthropy/

A major survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy confirms that residents of states that lean Republican and are most religious donate more of their money to charity, while more secular regions — and areas that tend to vote Democrat — give less.

lol it's working like a dream in the Bible Belt, right? They just tend to make more and donate more for the tax writeoff, often to institutions that don't do anything to alleviate poverty like art collections, or to their predator-pastor friend so he can get a new G-IV. But more importantly you're the one telling us charity doesn't work so isn't "who gives more" a moot point? What are republicans doing to alleviate poverty?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
330west
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 1:25 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
salttee wrote:

Are these Fox News studies?


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lanthropy/

A major survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy confirms that residents of states that lean Republican and are most religious donate more of their money to charity, while more secular regions — and areas that tend to vote Democrat — give less.

lol it's working like a dream in the Bible Belt, right? They just tend to make more and donate more for the tax writeoff, often to institutions that don't do anything to alleviate poverty like art collections, or to their predator-pastor friend so he can get a new G-IV. But more importantly you're the one telling us charity doesn't work so isn't "who gives more" a moot point? What are republicans doing to alleviate poverty?


By the looks of Trump's budget maybe they're hoping the poor will just off themselves or die from completely treatable and preventable illnesses.
Always fly first class, otherwise your heirs will.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3253
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 1:35 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Well, it starts with the parents; hopefully, they make the right choices to make things better for their child than it was/is for them. That's every parent's goal, right? Yes, not all can do that - but that doesn't mean NONE can either, and that's my point - there are people who work themselves out of poverty. It's not a black hole from which there is zero chance of escape, which is what I'm hearing from some here.


Disagree, there are more than enough parents who don't give a sh*t about the well-being of their children, not to mention the massive amount of parents who simply don't know better or don't have the time and resources to do so.

Many poor people, especially those who are poor long-term (just to get university graduates out of the way) usually haven't got a very good education, which means that they have to take physically demanding and poorly compensated jobs. That leaves very little time to help little Johnny with his homework, or to buy him the new computer that is required for schoolwork. Statistics also show that those on the bottom of society are more likely to get divorced, so now little Johnny is only going to be raised by a single parent too.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17717
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 2:06 pm

330west wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lanthropy/

A major survey by the Chronicle of Philanthropy confirms that residents of states that lean Republican and are most religious donate more of their money to charity, while more secular regions — and areas that tend to vote Democrat — give less.

lol it's working like a dream in the Bible Belt, right? They just tend to make more and donate more for the tax writeoff, often to institutions that don't do anything to alleviate poverty like art collections, or to their predator-pastor friend so he can get a new G-IV. But more importantly you're the one telling us charity doesn't work so isn't "who gives more" a moot point? What are republicans doing to alleviate poverty?


By the looks of Trump's budget maybe they're hoping the poor will just off themselves or die from completely treatable and preventable illnesses.

Pretty much.

Also you can check out the philanthropy study here, without the wingnut Washington Times agenda:

https://www.philanthropy.com/interactiv ... ch-results
The wealthy give a much smaller proportion of their income to charity than those making under $100K, or even $25K. But even the Washington Times admits once you take out the nonsense religious donations, the list changes dramatically:
"Indeed, when tithing is taken out of the equation, the list of most charitable states changes dramatically.
New York, for example, is ranked No. 18 overall, but jumps to No. 2 when only secular donations are counted. Pennsylvania would make a similar leap, rising from No. 40 to No. 4."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 3:47 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Also you can check out the philanthropy study here, without the wingnut Washington Times agenda:

https://www.philanthropy.com/interactiv ... ch-results
The wealthy give a much smaller proportion of their income to charity than those making under $100K, or even $25K. But even the Washington Times admits once you take out the nonsense religious donations, the list changes dramatically:
"Indeed, when tithing is taken out of the equation, the list of most charitable states changes dramatically.
New York, for example, is ranked No. 18 overall, but jumps to No. 2 when only secular donations are counted. Pennsylvania would make a similar leap, rising from No. 40 to No. 4."

The cited philanthropy study obtained their data from IRS records, so it did not tabulate actual donations but rather deductions for alleged donations. I suggest that there is only a loose correlation between donations claimed and donations made. It also doesn't account for donations made by people who took the standard deductions. The study is hookum.

This is beside the fact that the original claim made by EA CO AS was that: "study after study shows Republicans are magnitudes of order more charitable than Democrats." Not even close.
 
AM744
Posts: 1471
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Tue May 23, 2017 8:18 pm

There are serious studies that are showing more and more that if you are born poor, you are very likely to remain poor. More so now than in previous decades. If you are not helped by the state via quality schooling and access to health services you'll remain poor, no matter how bad you want to escape it.

Same for the very rich. You are very likely to remain in that status, no matter what you do.

There is some mobility within the confines of the middle class. No middle class, you end up in some sort of medieval society.

You can't have scarring inequality. It breaks the back of society.
 
Braniff1
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 1:22 am

Tugger wrote:
Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it. So it is important to not believe in it as if you do you could become trapped by the idea of poverty and will not be able to succeed or overcome the drag of being "poor".

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg

I know some people that I'd like to introduce you to; they might be able to help you finish your PhD in life science that you have obviously failed to discern. Take another "Tugg" on that joint, it will help make things clearer to you...hopefully. It's sad you have such little grasp of reality. Philosophy, in your case, is just a fancy word for Bull Shit.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 2:16 am

Well okay, but in general, poverty is a behavior pattern. It starts with not having a father at home. Poverty isn't only financial. Any social worker will tell you that.

You can give $1m to most poor people and within 18 months, they will still be poor people. It's a behavior pattern.

The proof I will point to is, certain groups of immigrants to the USA come here with absolutely nothing AND are richer than white people on average. That is a fact. Poverty is not only about money. Nor is financial stability. Financial stability is almost entirely a behavior pattern and NOT about how much money you make.

If you are poor, one thing you can do at age 5 is, find a Korean American friend. Do everything that Korean American 5 year old does. Never leave their side. When they apply to dental school, YOU apply to dental school. When they buy a million dollar rental property, YOU buy a million dollar rental property. When they drive a $10,000 car with $4,000,000 in the bank, YOU do that too. you're welcome

Edit: Good people can be trapped in poverty, but if it lasts over 12-15 years in the USA, it is really more your behavior than anything. This emphatically includes the raising of children.
Last edited by Flighty on Wed May 24, 2017 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9964
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 2:17 am

In the US we have a Minimum Wage that is below the poverty level. We also have a President who believes that the Minimum Wage is too high and that he would prefer that it was eliminated. (He is also the guy who stiffs his contractors about 30%, which is one of the keys to his wealth)

The generational impact has been around since slavery. Then there are the traditional efforts, especially in the South,
where schools for people of color were anything but equal.

Of course those who are comfortably in the middle class need to be somewhat worried as Trump & his Billionaires Boys Club are going to shaft them as well. Get out your check book because you are going to need to pay for Trump's cuts. That might help you understand what a lack of money means.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 2:51 am

Ken, I am glad you brought up wages. just 1-2 days ago NYT had an article about how terrible it is that (because of Trump's harshness on immigrants) the country is going into a "labor shortage crisis."

Tragically, wages for working people might have to rise to correct this crisis. NYT readers of course will suffer, because they work in the high professions, nonprofits or are heirs to wealth. They might have to hire legal workers to work in their gardens and wash their $60,000 Volvo hybrids.

I fear that Trump may have to go on television and personally apologize to low-educated American citizens about their rising wages! Surely he should take responsibility!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/21/us/p ... -jobs.html
 
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Francoflier
Posts: 4936
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 3:31 am

Braniff1 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Was just realizing that "poverty" is not a thing, it is a concept only and no one is trapped by it. So it is important to not believe in it as if you do you could become trapped by the idea of poverty and will not be able to succeed or overcome the drag of being "poor".

Anyone can achieve success if they just believe and push themselves. There is no excuse, there is need for programs that "fight" what is not real.

Tugg

I know some people that I'd like to introduce you to; they might be able to help you finish your PhD in life science that you have obviously failed to discern. Take another "Tugg" on that joint, it will help make things clearer to you...hopefully. It's sad you have such little grasp of reality. Philosophy, in your case, is just a fancy word for Bull Shit.


For those who don't know Tugger, that was sarcasm...
Either that or he defected to the dark side of the Force.

Still, the fact that some are taking it seriously and that it is causing a debate, with a few of the usual suspect hard at work trying to defend their view that poverty is a choice and that the lower and lower-middle class should be abandoned to their fate as they deserved to be there is quite telling.

The irony of this generalized assault of the working poor in the US by the rich is that on a macroeconomic scale, the rich are only rich thanks to a relatively wealthy low and middle class.

Every developed nation owes its status to having a large proportion of people having some degree of disposable income. Pushing the lower classes further into poverty is a dangerous move on the long term as it only leads to overall reduced consumption, increased household debt, lower general health and life expectancy (especially if the healthcare bill passes) and eventually to a receding economy which, ironically, will ultimately affect the richer classes who passed the measures in the first place.

Basically, the rich are in charge, and they're destabilizing the entire economy for their own short term gains. The Wall Street mentality has now gone mainstream.
Hurray for greed and indifference.
:sigh:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17717
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 3:32 am

salttee wrote:
The cited philanthropy study obtained their data from IRS records, so it did not tabulate actual donations but rather deductions for alleged donations. I suggest that there is only a loose correlation between donations claimed and donations made. It also doesn't account for donations made by people who took the standard deductions. The study is hookum.

Good point.
Flighty wrote:
Edit: Good people can be trapped in poverty, but if it lasts over 12-15 years in the USA, it is really more your behavior than anything. This emphatically includes the raising of children.

No. That is what the right tells itself to make them feel better as they decimate unions, drive down the minimum wage, eviscerate labor protections, starve public education, ramp up mass incarceration, double down on predatory lending, reduce access to contraception, and on and on... Poor people choose to be subject to all of that!

Flighty wrote:
Tragically, wages for working people might have to rise to correct this crisis. NYT readers of course will suffer, because they work in the high professions, nonprofits or are heirs to wealth. They might have to hire legal workers to work in their gardens and wash their $60,000 Volvo hybrids.

I fear that Trump may have to go on television and personally apologize to low-educated American citizens about their rising wages! Surely he should take responsibility!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/21/us/p ... -jobs.html

Is Trump wineries exempt from hiring Americans or nah? Funny I haven't seen rednecks scurrying to the fields to replace migrants picking fruits and vegetables. Maybe they need to make the fields hoveround accessible?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
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Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Wed May 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Francoflier wrote:
For those who don't know Tugger, that was sarcasm...
Either that or he defected to the dark side of the Force.


Notice that, in post #6, I asked Tugger for clarity.

It has not been forthcoming.

One is left to presume that he meant what he wrote. I guess that means he "defected".
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Thu May 25, 2017 2:04 am

I saw where Dr. Ben Carson was repeating this line. I've lost track of the bone-headed and self-righteous things this man has said. He's an excellent argument against the merits of Affirmative Action.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: It is important to not believe in poverty

Thu May 25, 2017 2:12 am

Flighty wrote:
Well okay, but in general, poverty is a behavior pattern. It starts with not having a father at home. Poverty isn't only financial. Any social worker will tell you that.

You can give $1m to most poor people and within 18 months, they will still be poor people. It's a behavior pattern.

The proof I will point to is, certain groups of immigrants to the USA come here with absolutely nothing AND are richer than white people on average. That is a fact. Poverty is not only about money. Nor is financial stability. Financial stability is almost entirely a behavior pattern and NOT about how much money you make.

If you are poor, one thing you can do at age 5 is, find a Korean American friend. Do everything that Korean American 5 year old does. Never leave their side. When they apply to dental school, YOU apply to dental school. When they buy a million dollar rental property, YOU buy a million dollar rental property. When they drive a $10,000 car with $4,000,000 in the bank, YOU do that too. you're welcome

Edit: Good people can be trapped in poverty, but if it lasts over 12-15 years in the USA, it is really more your behavior than anything. This emphatically includes the raising of children.


Isn't it just precious how he ignores things like intentionally underfunded schools in poverty-stricken districts, condescending sympathy from people such as himself who simultaneously tell people to pull themselves up while stepping on their neck, over a century of racially biased social and economic policies that prevented minorities from being able to learn about or establish wealth, or the fact that five year olds don't know how to do anything but what their parents teach them?? Bless his heart.

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