toltommy
Topic Author
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DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:27 am

This article says the inter-concourse train failed twice today. Over the years, the system seems to have been very reliable. But it's hard to believe that a pedestrian tunnel wasn't built as part of the project.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/11/22/d ... lfunction/
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Antarius
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:30 am

Ouch. I've flown to DEN probably 200 times and it runs like clockwork. Never thought about a failure.

Concourse A is connected by bridge so they should be good. B and C which are UA and WN are hosed. Ouch
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rph99
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:41 am

Saw lots of pictures and videos out of DEN today. Looked like a mess this morning. The lines were wild! Perfect example of why you should get to the airport nice and early...especially around the holidays!
 
globalflyer
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:52 am

It was three times... yes a mess... but I gave myself 3,5 hours and it only took 20 minutes, although I have Clear, and it was 100% worth it today!
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
ericm2031
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:32 am

39 more gates is going to be even more of a mess if the train goes down.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:34 am

Wasn't there a train failure in DEN just a few weeks ago? Either way, today was decidedly not the day to have something like that go wrong. At least ATL has a walkway, although ATL seems to have a contingency for just about everything. Airports that rely on APMs need to have some sort of contingency plan to move people on short notice, especially on days with above average traffic. The last thing the system needs as a whole on days like today is delays attributed to something like this. Airlines and ATC are already running at close to maximum capacity, so delays due to avoidable circumstances just aren't acceptable.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:15 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Wasn't there a train failure in DEN just a few weeks ago? Either way, today was decidedly not the day to have something like that go wrong. At least ATL has a walkway, although ATL seems to have a contingency for just about everything. Airports that rely on APMs need to have some sort of contingency plan to move people on short notice, especially on days with above average traffic. The last thing the system needs as a whole on days like today is delays attributed to something like this. Airlines and ATC are already running at close to maximum capacity, so delays due to avoidable circumstances just aren't acceptable.


I believe the contingency is using the walkway to A, and then bussing to B and C. Of course the design of the airport doesn't allow for people already past the main security area to access the A bridge.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
FlyHossD
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:43 pm

Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
303dk
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:44 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.

I laugh when people suggest walking like ATL. The concourses in Denver are much, much, much farther apart.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:09 pm

303dk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.

I laugh when people suggest walking like ATL. The concourses in Denver are much, much, much farther apart.


A to B is about 1500 feet, or 2-3 Manhattan city blocks in length. Hardly a marathon.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
Cubsrule
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:17 pm

303dk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.

I laugh when people suggest walking like ATL. The concourses in Denver are much, much, much farther apart.


A to B is about 1,800 feet; B to C is about 1,600. The distances between concourses at ATL are about 1,000 feet apiece. Not everyone can or will walk in ATL but I've done C to T or A to D when I've had time and the train has been crowded. Those walks are comparable to A to C at DEN.

For some context, the headhouse to the end of 4B at JFK is about 2,200 feet, and the choices there are walking or the jitney.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
FlyHossD
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:30 pm

303dk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.


Thanks for the reply. If a sensor was the issue, why did it take three attempts to repair or replace it? Do you have any info on that?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Kno
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:13 pm

303dk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.

I laugh when people suggest walking like ATL. The concourses in Denver are much, much, much farther apart.


If there was an emergency where the trains don't work wouldn't walking make the most sense? It would have been useful in this situation, better than only having busses.


Some people like to walk as well. Not everyone in ATL who walks is going from one terminal to the next closest. I've walked from F to A in ATL just to stretch my legs on a 2 hour connection and noticed others doing the same.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:20 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
303dk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Malware? Haven't heard any explanation.


Sensor malfunction on a section of track. They had to route the trains around that section. FWIW, the system didn't completely go down. The trains were running at 4 minute intervals instead of 2 minute intervals because of the detour. They supplemented by bussing from A to B and C.

I laugh when people suggest walking like ATL. The concourses in Denver are much, much, much farther apart.


A to B is about 1,800 feet; B to C is about 1,600. The distances between concourses at ATL are about 1,000 feet apiece. Not everyone can or will walk in ATL but I've done C to T or A to D when I've had time and the train has been crowded. Those walks are comparable to A to C at DEN.

For some context, the headhouse to the end of 4B at JFK is about 2,200 feet, and the choices there are walking or the jitney.


Moving walkways would cut effective distance nearly in half. While still a good distance, I believe it’s fuether from one end of B all the way to the other end of B. Certainly doable and is routine.

All said, such a walkway is not in the plans for the next couple of decades. Hopefully the train remains as reliable as it has historically.
 
rta
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Really surprised they didn't build a pedestrian tunnel. Regardless of distance between tunnels, it'd be a good backup if something ever brought down both trains.
 
sccutler
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:26 pm

I have long felt that airports which required use of a train as an originating or arriving passenger were a fundamentally defective design. Trains can be nice, but I prefer the option of walking.

Connecting, where multiple terminals are involved, *may* justify trains, but that's a different animal entirely.
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toltommy
Topic Author
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:37 pm

rta wrote:
Really surprised they didn't build a pedestrian tunnel. Regardless of distance between tunnels, it'd be a good backup if something ever brought down both trains.


I'm with you. ATL had already been built with a tunnel. Knowing they were going to use a train between concourses, one has to wonder why the tunnel wasn't built with a pedestrian walkway. I'd love to know why the planners didn't include it from the start.
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catdaddy63
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:15 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/27/us/de ... -work.html

Don't forget the same airport planners that accepted the train system also accepted the high tech failure of a baggage system!
 
mcg
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:10 am

toltommy wrote:
rta wrote:
Really surprised they didn't build a pedestrian tunnel. Regardless of distance between tunnels, it'd be a good backup if something ever brought down both trains.


I'm with you. ATL had already been built with a tunnel. Knowing they were going to use a train between concourses, one has to wonder why the tunnel wasn't built with a pedestrian walkway. I'd love to know why the planners didn't include it from the start.



Cost. DIA was over budget and they wanted to avoid the cost of making the tunnel wider.
 
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intotheair
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:00 am

I think the train design is some cause for concern, but I think a lot of the criticism of it is overblown. While there were problems on Wednesday, it was not a total system failure. That has only happened, what, two times now, and the airport does, in fact, have a contingency plan in the event of a total system failure.

Would a ped tunnel have been smart to build? Probably, especially because it would likely be prohibitively expensive to build one now. But when you look at how much switching track was built in between the two tracks, and when you look at the empirical data of how reliable the train is, I don't think it's fair to say that it's a complete design flaw that there isn't a ped tunnel. Aside from the data, I've also long thought that the same people who complain about the lack of a ped tunnel would be the same people who would complain about the length of a ped tunnel if it were to exist.

What's more concerning, in my opinion, is the crunch on capacity of the train. The original O&D forecasts for the airport were so off that nobody predicted DEN would have as high O&D as it does today, meaning the train is much more important than it was ever envisioned. But DIA is presenting a plan to city council Monday night. Changes include:

- Renewing a maintenance contract with Bombardier
- Purchasing 26 new cars and retiring some older ones, resulting in a net increase of at least 10 cars
- Reducing peak headways from a train every 108 seconds to one every 95 seconds
- Modifying station platforms to accommodate six car trains (from the current four car trains)

From the Post:
http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/26/di ... expansion/

They are also going to replace the train voices and music next year. Goodbye, Adele Arakawa and Alan Roach!
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jetmatt777
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Re: DEN concourse train failure 11/22

Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:04 am

One limitation that cannot be fixed is the time it takes to get people on and off the trains. This time is worse during peak times as there are simply more people. So it's a compounding factor... trains are slowed down because it may take several attempts to get all doors closed, and that increased delay between trains causes even more people to pile up for the next train. The increased amount of people causes an even larger rush on the next train, which will also take several more door close attempts delaying the next train further.

From my observations, the system will not dispatch a train to the next station, if that station is still standing waiting for door closure. So it affects the entire system.
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