PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:01 am

Here she is, N794UA in Star Alliance paint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPzERUWZPzA

I stood on the small center divide facing south on Sixth Avenue to use the townhouses on the right as a sunblock.

Image

Thanks for the heads up - I'm glad I caught it!!
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:14 am

Very nice capture, PSAat'! Thanks for all your efforts.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if one day, that beautiful bird, complete with UA's colors, made regular calls at SAN? I cant' envision it ever happening but...

bb
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:00 pm

Nice photo on the UA 772. Since UA uses the vast majority of its widebodies on international service, the only option of widebody service at SAN for UA would be the domestic 777-200 - 19 of these operate lots of hub-to hub services, some Transcons, Hawaii plus HNL-GUM-NRT service and a few TATL flights. With the 78X introduction and other widbodies entering the fleet, 772 Domestic units may serve more domestic flights, but doubt SAN would get a regular aircraft. More likely would be a 757-300 on selected SAN flights if the 772 covers some 753 routes in the future.

Looking at stats from MTS and the RAA, the 992 bus carries 1200 people per day, an average of 9 per trip (based on 15 minute headways for 17 hour day). That's 1.9% of the total passenger count at Lindbergh.
In Post 587, it talks about a trolley extension to the airport and appears to divert Blue and Green Line trains via the airport and cancel Bus Route 992. I'm sure MTS would find a diversion of through traffic between the OTTC and Downtown would devastate service between UCSD/Mission Valley and Downtown.
A service level of 6 trains per hour would definitely require double tracks into the airport where space is very limited and going underground is not an option. If ridership jumped to the approximately 6% other cities have with their direct transit, it would generate 17 passengers per trolley operation.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:28 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
In Post 587, it talks about a trolley extension to the airport and appears to divert Blue and Green Line trains via the airport and cancel Bus Route 992. I'm sure MTS would find a diversion of through traffic between the OTTC and Downtown would devastate service between UCSD/Mission Valley and Downtown.


Oh I see what you’re talking about. I was looking not at what was proposed in that post, but what was shown in the link: http://www.circulatesd.org/airport?fbcl ... EtvshK5fc4

The link proposes an automated people mover that essentially replaces the existing rental car and economy lot shuttles with a stop at the Middletown and/or Washington St trolley stations. I’m not sure this is a huge gain over existing bus service, other than perhaps avoiding the awkward trolley to shuttle connection currently at Middletown.

I agree that diverting the Blue and Green Line trains at Laurel would negatively impact travel times for non airport passengers. I think what the post is proposing is that some trains would run via the airport while others would bypass it.

I used to think extending 992 so that it continued down Harbor and up Rosecrans to Old Town would help since it would allow airport transfers at Old Town rather than having to go all the way downtown, but when I look at an actual map and see that the runway alignment doesn’t parallel I-5 as closely as I’d thought I can see why everything wants to come into the airport from the east side rather than via Point Loma.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 802
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:05 pm

SANfan wrote:
Very nice capture, PSAat'! Thanks for all your efforts.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if one day, that beautiful bird, complete with UA's colors, made regular calls at SAN? I cant' envision it ever happening but...

bb


calpsafltskeds wrote:
Nice photo on the UA 772. Since UA uses the vast majority of its widebodies on international service, the only option of widebody service at SAN for UA would be the domestic 777-200 - 19 of these operate lots of hub-to hub services, some Transcons, Hawaii plus HNL-GUM-NRT service and a few TATL flights. With the 78X introduction and other widbodies entering the fleet, 772 Domestic units may serve more domestic flights, but doubt SAN would get a regular aircraft. More likely would be a 757-300 on selected SAN flights if the 772 covers some 753 routes in the future.

Looking at stats from MTS and the RAA, the 992 bus carries 1200 people per day, an average of 9 per trip (based on 15 minute headways for 17 hour day). That's 1.9% of the total passenger count at Lindbergh.
In Post 587, it talks about a trolley extension to the airport and appears to divert Blue and Green Line trains via the airport and cancel Bus Route 992. I'm sure MTS would find a diversion of through traffic between the OTTC and Downtown would devastate service between UCSD/Mission Valley and Downtown.
A service level of 6 trains per hour would definitely require double tracks into the airport where space is very limited and going underground is not an option. If ridership jumped to the approximately 6% other cities have with their direct transit, it would generate 17 passengers per trolley operation.


The pleasure is mine! I'm glad it was the Star Alliance livery - extra points for uniqueness.

On the topic of mass transit, re-routing the blue and green trolley lines would be a BIG mistake. That's routing a lot of people out of their way, who depend on a direct line to downtown, adding extra time to the journey. Not acceptable. But as I might have stated (probably too many times!), the solution doesn't need to be that drastic - a separate train from the employee lot to the rental car building to Middletown station and then to each part of the terminal facilities, extending past Terminal 2 West to the west parking lots:

Image

Purple indicates the major road routes via Harbor Drive for a single, unified Terminal 1 and Terminal 2, with all gates connected post-security. The yellow indicates the "PeopleMover" route. Darker shades of yellow indicate where it would rise up and over street traffic.

Image

The upgraded Middletown station actually could fit very nicely with existing road and upgraded signage for those using this location as a quick drop-off/pick-up point. Private cars, buses, blue & green line trolleys stopping on the east platforms (as well as the Coaster and/or Amtrak), and the PeopleMover on a different but easily accessible platform, thereby necessitating a transfer to the airport, but no change to the trolley lines. Encourage people to use the drop-off point, and you might see a drop in traffic on Harbor Drive as well as Grape/Hawthrone through the area.

I know, I know, we're all armchair CEO's, but when a planning commission comes out with its recommendations that are nearly identical to ideas that I've been mulling in my head for nearly two decades, I do tend to give myself a pat on the back...
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:08 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
. More likely would be a 757-300 on selected SAN flights if the 772 covers some 753 route.


I didn't know UA still had 753s in their fleet. I know DL has them.
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SANAV8R
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:46 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

On the topic of mass transit, re-routing the blue and green trolley lines would be a BIG mistake. That's routing a lot of people out of their way, who depend on a direct line to downtown, adding extra time to the journey. Not acceptable. But as I might have stated (probably too many times!), the solution doesn't need to be that drastic - a separate train from the employee lot to the rental car building to Middletown station and then to each part of the terminal facilities, extending past Terminal 2 West to the west parking lots:

Image

Purple indicates the major road routes via Harbor Drive for a single, unified Terminal 1 and Terminal 2, with all gates connected post-security. The yellow indicates the "PeopleMover" route. Darker shades of yellow indicate where it would rise up and over street traffic.

Image

The upgraded Middletown station actually could fit very nicely with existing road and upgraded signage for those using this location as a quick drop-off/pick-up point. Private cars, buses, blue & green line trolleys stopping on the east platforms (as well as the Coaster and/or Amtrak), and the PeopleMover on a different but easily accessible platform, thereby necessitating a transfer to the airport, but no change to the trolley lines. Encourage people to use the drop-off point, and you might see a drop in traffic on Harbor Drive as well as Grape/Hawthrone through the area.

I know, I know, we're all armchair CEO's, but when a planning commission comes out with its recommendations that are nearly identical to ideas that I've been mulling in my head for nearly two decades, I do tend to give myself a pat on the back...


Love seeing these proposals for transit. Although the parking West station is where there will be a hotel soon, a Hampton Inn that opens in April 2019.

I know that whole piece of land that has the pedestrian bridge (Halsey Road) connecting the USS Recruit (aka USS Neversail), Homewood Suites, Courtyard by Marriott area of LS to the airport side is set to house a few hotels and several restaurants. When it was under construction, it messed with my runs that would start at Spanish Landing that took me under Harbor Drive bridge over to Liberty Station.

However I think it would be cool and greener to have a people mover rather than constant van shuttles and eventually have it say cross over the waterway to the other two hotels at Liberty Station. They still have several old NTC structures that should be raised and redeveloped too.

My other fantasy hopes is that the area where the old rental car sites are become a new SDAA/Port Authority/Harbor police complex and then the old port authority and offsite rental complexes between Kettner and Pacific Highway removed to allow for another Airport exit from the 5 some how to at least alleviate the traffic at the present exits. My other hope is eventually the current Solar Turbines site finds a new locale in the county and the area that it sits on incorporated in to the airport complex.

I know a few years ago I made and posted a mock up map with peoplemover-like line but I routed the entire system from Middletown skirting the rim of MCRD to an offsite parking/ bus transit plaza at the old midway Post Office through Liberty Station and to the airport.
Image
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itripreport
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:11 am

Was at SAN on Sunday, looks like Delta is now bringing both the 764 and 753 for high density service. Other than possibly Allegiant, what other airlines will be switching over to 2E, as I'm worried the terminal is going to suffer through overcrowding with both Alaska and American as the only tenants
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:49 am

When was the last time a MD-80 landed at SAN?
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:26 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
When was the last time a MD-80 landed at SAN?


I saw a AA MD-80 on November 9th.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:08 pm

UA has 21 753s.
9 were purchased new by CO in 2001 thru 2004.
12 were Ex TZ units built in 2001 through 2003 and joined CO from 2005 thru 2010. They all have just been converted to slimline with the exact layout of DL's and fly mostly hub to hub (lots of ORD-LAX/SFO) and Hawaii services. They now all offer Personal Device entertainment and WiFi.

Regarding people movers. Those seem to remind me of slow moving, rubber-tired, automated serviced inside airports that are run by the airport itself and FREE. Interesting concept, but I don't think the RAA would pay to build, it would probably require a fare and a connection would be required to everywhere. Wouldn't compare to light rail type service that offer direct service to downwtown or other population centers.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:19 pm

itripreport wrote:
Other than possibly Allegiant, what other airlines will be switching over to 2E, as I'm worried the terminal is going to suffer through overcrowding with both Alaska and American as the only tenants.

It is my understanding that at most, it will be AA, AS and maybe G4 living in T2E. There has been nothing that I've seen or heard specifically stating where G4 will end up but since they are currently in T2E, I presume that is where they will remain. And it's not like they use a whole lot of gate space -- a lot of their service is seasonal, and all of it is only a couple of days a week so they use maybe part of a gate just a few days a week. AFAIK, they have no plans to make SAN a larger operation than it is now, or has ever been.

I remain unsure as to the final home for F9 as well. I suppose they will remain where they are, T1W, sharing it with, according to the latest rumor, only WN. Accordingly, WN and F9 will be the only residents of Terminal One as of February? (AS still shows 1/29/19 as their move date of all op's into T2E, according to their website.)

For 2019, so far it is shaping up as a pretty quiet year for SAN. About the only positive announcements, or even rumors, are from our 2 star airlines, WN and AS. WN's peak summer schedule next June is showing 130 weekday departures (including new destinations of OMA and ORF) plus the ever-present expectation of some sort of Hawaii service from SAN. AAG has already announced 2 new routes -- ELP and PAE -- plus several added frequencies and a/c upgrades.

All other cx seem to be more-or-less holding steady, with NK gradually shrinking their op's here and F9, well who knows from month-to-month, where they fly from here? The rumor mill has been fairly silent lately concerning any exciting news on the international front -- nobody new coming but nobody leaving either! But just in case, we will see additional FIS-accessible gates opened by summer.

bb
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:30 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
SANfan wrote:
Very nice capture, PSAat'! Thanks for all your efforts.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if one day, that beautiful bird, complete with UA's colors, made regular calls at SAN? I cant' envision it ever happening but...

bb


[quote="calpsafltskeds"]

On the topic of mass transit, re-routing the blue and green trolley lines would be a BIG mistake. That's routing a lot of people out of their way, who depend on a direct line to downtown, adding extra time to the journey. Not acceptable. But as I might have stated (probably too many times!), the solution doesn't need to be that drastic - a separate train from the employee lot to the rental car building to Middletown station and then to each part of the terminal facilities, extending past Terminal 2 West to the west parking lots:


Hello...

Who said anything about rerouting blue and green line trolley's to the airport terminals on the way to downtown? My proposal is to use dedicated Airport Express Trains that run on current right-a-ways. These dedicated Airport Express Trains will have independent schedules from the current MTS Trolley System. They would run on 30 minute headway independent of the current trolley system and they will be painted with a big airplane symbol on them with the words "Airport Express Train" and they will have a dedicated luggage area. Also a different fare system would apply. Probably $5.00 or $6.00 from the outer reaches such a El Cajon or the Border and less as you get closer to the airport. I was curious to see how many dedicated trains it would take so I drew out a schedule based on every 30 minutes and it would require 15 (plus spares). Its seems pretty doable to me.

And of course you would need double tracks with an elevated platform all the way to the terminal which is how the Laurel Street overpass is right now. It would stay elevated from that point on to bypass automobile congestion and to avoid creating even a larger traffic conflict.

Sorry for the confusion.
We're up.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:33 pm

SANAV8R wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

On the topic of mass transit, re-routing the blue and green trolley lines would be a BIG mistake. That's routing a lot of people out of their way, who depend on a direct line to downtown, adding extra time to the journey. Not acceptable. But as I might have stated (probably too many times!), the solution doesn't need to be that drastic - a separate train from the employee lot to the rental car building to Middletown station and then to each part of the terminal facilities, extending past Terminal 2 West to the west parking lots:

Image

Purple indicates the major road routes via Harbor Drive for a single, unified Terminal 1 and Terminal 2, with all gates connected post-security. The yellow indicates the "PeopleMover" route. Darker shades of yellow indicate where it would rise up and over street traffic.

Image

The upgraded Middletown station actually could fit very nicely with existing road and upgraded signage for those using this location as a quick drop-off/pick-up point. Private cars, buses, blue & green line trolleys stopping on the east platforms (as well as the Coaster and/or Amtrak), and the PeopleMover on a different but easily accessible platform, thereby necessitating a transfer to the airport, but no change to the trolley lines. Encourage people to use the drop-off point, and you might see a drop in traffic on Harbor Drive as well as Grape/Hawthrone through the area.

I know, I know, we're all armchair CEO's, but when a planning commission comes out with its recommendations that are nearly identical to ideas that I've been mulling in my head for nearly two decades, I do tend to give myself a pat on the back...


Love seeing these proposals for transit. Although the parking West station is where there will be a hotel soon, a Hampton Inn that opens in April 2019.

I know that whole piece of land that has the pedestrian bridge (Halsey Road) connecting the USS Recruit (aka USS Neversail), Homewood Suites, Courtyard by Marriott area of LS to the airport side is set to house a few hotels and several restaurants. When it was under construction, it messed with my runs that would start at Spanish Landing that took me under Harbor Drive bridge over to Liberty Station.

However I think it would be cool and greener to have a people mover rather than constant van shuttles and eventually have it say cross over the waterway to the other two hotels at Liberty Station. They still have several old NTC structures that should be raised and redeveloped too.

My other fantasy hopes is that the area where the old rental car sites are become a new SDAA/Port Authority/Harbor police complex and then the old port authority and offsite rental complexes between Kettner and Pacific Highway removed to allow for another Airport exit from the 5 some how to at least alleviate the traffic at the present exits. My other hope is eventually the current Solar Turbines site finds a new locale in the county and the area that it sits on incorporated in to the airport complex.

I know a few years ago I made and posted a mock up map with peoplemover-like line but I routed the entire system from Middletown skirting the rim of MCRD to an offsite parking/ bus transit plaza at the old midway Post Office through Liberty Station and to the airport.
Image


Thanks for sharing that!

Just to be clear, "People Mover" is a generic term I am using in my wish list for a trolley/tram/rail system as yet to be determined for my airport-to-Middletown connection. Durability is the key on this, as we've seen poor EWR's fabulous system suffer from literal over use. For that matter, using the trolley system that already exists would add simplicity and proven durability, not to mention commonality. Call it the Yellow Line, for that matter. All kinds of options are available!

Number one traffic issue: slowdowns/stops on Laurel/Grape/Hawthorne and even Washington for trains. The main track needs to be elevated across these streets, and most of the traffic problems will take care of themselves.
 
 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3352
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:14 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Who said anything about rerouting blue and green line trolley's to the airport terminals on the way to downtown? My proposal is to use dedicated Airport Express Trains that run on current right-a-ways. These dedicated Airport Express Trains will have independent schedules from the current MTS Trolley System. They would run on 30 minute headway independent of the current trolley system and they will be painted with a big airplane symbol on them with the words "Airport Express Train" and they will have a dedicated luggage area. Also a different fare system would apply. Probably $5.00 or $6.00 from the outer reaches such a El Cajon or the Border and less as you get closer to the airport. I was curious to see how many dedicated trains it would take so I drew out a schedule based on every 30 minutes and it would require 15 (plus spares). Its seems pretty doable to me.


Would the Airport Express Trains serve all of the current trolley stations on the right-of-ways they’d share? If not you also need to add additional track to allow the Express train to bypass the regular trolleys that are stopped. And if they’re serving all stations, Express doesn’t seem to be a good name; Airport Line might be better.

I also wonder about having a dedicated baggage area. Are you thinking of something akin to Amtrak’s baggage car? If so, you’re going to significantly increase dwell time at each stop compared to regular trolley service as passengers would have to place their bags in the baggage area then move to a regular car and find a seat. Luggage racks near the door of each car would be better. The airport trains I’ve seen in Europe don’t have baggage cars. Taipei-Taoyuan Airport Line has a baggage car, but this is because they offer baggage check in at Taipei Main Station and the bags are loaded into the baggage car by staff and taken directly into the airports checked baggage system at Taoyuan airport without passenger involvement.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:47 pm

Okay, the "Lindbergh Limited" would share all trolley stops to allow for transfers or for passenger drop off. However, a few strategically located Park & Fly parking structures would be useful for long term parking such as El Cajon, La Mesa, the Stadium, Chula Vista and somewhere on the new UCSD line such as Balboa, the Noble Drive area or UTC.

It is Express because there are no passengers constantly getting off and on. Only passengers bound for the airport get on. No-one disembarks until the airport.
We're up.
 
williaminsd
Posts: 149
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:45 pm

Well, not to be the contrarian here, but with the emergence of shared-rides, I am no longer convinced of the value and effectiveness of large-scale public transit projects.

The system being used for illustration in this thread probably checks-in at about three miles or so. The recent Blue Line extension in Minneapolis cost about $120,000,000/mile; Portland’s Orange Line extension cost about $200,000,000/mile; our own trolley extension to UCSD is running about $180,000,000/mile.

Let’s give it some efficiencies for existing infrastructure and ROW and say going to cost about $160,000,000/mile. At about three miles, that’s a cool half-a-BILLION dollars…

That seems like a lot of cash for a system that in best-case will require two or three transfer points for your entire journey... each way.

As someone who uses the airport on a weekly basis, I can tell you that from my home, some three miles away, Uber/Lyft delivers me door-to-door, using existing infrastructure, within 20 min (usually faster, depending on time of day), for less than $20, including nice tip.

During promotions (which occur often), I can cut that cost in half. I live east of the airport, so I typically encounter several of the standard choke-points on the road, but am still reliably dropped-off in front of the specific airline counter within 20 min.

I think any type of rail line is going to have great difficulty competing with those metrics...

I understand that not all airport users live a conveniently close as I do, so perhaps a better way to use any funds would be to build an exclusive shared-ride lane from the station to the terminals. You could probably use the existing rental-car shuttle road.

Incorporating the rental shuttle road into the plan means you could probably have the entire system in place for less than $5,000,000. Would probably take no more than a year to go through the approval process, and then you're good to go.

With this system, trolley riders could be picked-up directly from the trains as you exit and for $5-$10, get delivered directly in front of the terminal door. Travel time no more than six minutes.

So, how does a $500,000,000 rail connection produce better end-user results than a $5,000,000 connection? (I'll do the math, that is 100x more expensive...)

I don’t think it does, or ever could...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: San Diego Thread - 2018

Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:59 am

Please continue in next year's thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411015&p=20969353#p20969353

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